Why hasnt Shuffle been nerfed yet?

Brutusmax1mus · October 2016

I had a duel last night that took over 2 minutes because of the random Dodge chance. This guy dodged, with it any actual skill of game play, a dark flare/javalin/toppling charge combo. I backed up to do it again bc f that.. SAME thing. 6 attacks, about 18k magicka, and about 9 seconds that forced me on the defensive.

M not saying nerf stam, this was against a mag sorc. I use shuffle too on duels bc of how much of an advantage it gives you, especially against those that don't use it.

Also last night i started a fight against a stam nb where he dodged the first 2 entropy casts and first 3 javelins i threw to get him out of my face. That was over 8 seconds of casting just to get started in a fight.

I know it should happen like that rarely based on statistics. But it's not rare that this stuff happens with shuffle.

Toc de Malsvi · October 2016

Outside of the issue with projectiles I think players often way underrate the value of 20% dodge that is working effectively as 20% dodge. There are certainly times where shuffle does little for you, but that one time it proc's on what would be a knock down or big hit can reverse the momentum instantaneously.

ostrapz · October 2016

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Why not just change Evasion to this?

Evasion
Cost: X Stamina (Where X is the current cost of Evasion)
Duration: 10 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation.

Morph: Elude
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. When you dodge an attack, you gain Minor Expedition and Minor Endurance for Y seconds. (Y is the number of medium armour pieces you are wearing).

Morph: Shuffle
Duration: 13 seconds
Effect: Shroud yourself in mist, reducing the cost of dodge roll by 15% and removing all snares on activation. Additionally, the penalty for repeated dodges is reduced by Y%.

Effects of proposed changes:
- Cements shuffle as an ability to compliment a medium armour build instead of a buff that is applicable to all builds.
- Reduces the RNG factor of combat while rewarding active dodging.
- Allows access to minor buffs not normally obtainable that compliments the theme of movement in medium armour.

I had a similar thought recently, I like this idea. Alot better than rng imo

Knootewoot · November 2016

Paraflex · November 2016

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

SodanTok · November 2016

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

Minalan · November 2016

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

If you also get 6 seconds of root immunity? Yes.

SodanTok · November 2016

Minalan wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

If you also get 6 seconds of root immunity? Yes.

Great idea! For heavy armor and every magicka char (read: anyone but medium armor users).

Are roots even a thing still? (except talons). Bombard got destroyed and trap is pretty unreliable. Anyways, as medium armor user, root affects me like never, since I can dodge it. Even snares are worse and I can already be immune to those for 3.5sec with each shuffle.

br0steen · November 2016

It's people dodge rolling, not shuffle. I never have an issue hitting someone, or getting hit because of shuffle. It's not like a shield or ward either where you can stack continuesly to the point where a well built and well played mag sorc is almost impossible to kill without shield breaker.

Shuffle is not an issue, there are bigger problems with the game than what you're trying to make shuffle into.

Skitttles · November 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

If hasn't been nerfed because the devs playing use it extensively and play exclusively stamina builds.

I'm sorry but this is a ridiculous mentality.

Agreed. Everyone seems to have forgotten about Elder Robes Online.

HoloYoitsu · November 2016

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

Show me your 20k hardened ward in Cyrodiil. Also shields aren't equivalent to HP, while they cannot be crit, they have 0 armor/spell resist.

Let's say your average heavy armor proctato has 25k armor, 2k impen, maybe 20% CP dmg reduction? (Leaving pen and crit modifiers out for now) How much does your 10k (after battle spirit) atk crit them for? About 7,155 (5,360 non crit). Meanwhile against a shield, you'll just do the 10k not even factoring in points in shattering blows.

SodanTok · November 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

Show me your 20k hardened ward in Cyrodiil. Also shields aren't equivalent to HP, while they cannot be crit, they have 0 armor/spell resist.

Let's say your average heavy armor proctato has 25k armor, 2k impen, maybe 20% CP dmg reduction? (Leaving pen and crit modifiers out for now) How much does your 10k (after battle spirit) atk crit them for? About 7,155 (5,360 non crit). Meanwhile against a shield, you'll just do the 10k not even factoring in points in shattering blows.

Im not saying heavy armor isnt better at defense than shields. But we are speaking about medium armor skill. Fact that it is viable and heavily used by heavy armor is the only "bad" thing about it. Nerfing it in way that makes it much worse for medium armor skills is destroying the skill. That 10k damage attack on your shield deals only slightly less to medium armor user, do it twice and he is dead (or at least open to executions).
The only reason shuffle is even comparable to shields are those lucky times when it procs on that high damage/cc skill.

Edziu · November 2016

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

Show me your 20k hardened ward in Cyrodiil. Also shields aren't equivalent to HP, while they cannot be crit, they have 0 armor/spell resist.

Let's say your average heavy armor proctato has 25k armor, 2k impen, maybe 20% CP dmg reduction? (Leaving pen and crit modifiers out for now) How much does your 10k (after battle spirit) atk crit them for? About 7,155 (5,360 non crit). Meanwhile against a shield, you'll just do the 10k not even factoring in points in shattering blows.

Im not saying heavy armor isnt better at defense than shields. But we are speaking about medium armor skill. Fact that it is viable and heavily used by heavy armor is the only "bad" thing about it. Nerfing it in way that makes it much worse for medium armor skills is destroying the skill. That 10k damage attack on your shield deals only slightly less to medium armor user, do it twice and he is dead (or at least open to executions).
The only reason shuffle is even comparable to shields are those lucky times when it procs on that high damage/cc skill.

how to easy solve this problem then?

make those active armor skills usable only while you are wearing minimum 5 pieces of ths armor to this skill

then will be no more use shuffle by tankiest heavy armor scrubs

SodanTok · November 2016

Edziu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

Show me your 20k hardened ward in Cyrodiil. Also shields aren't equivalent to HP, while they cannot be crit, they have 0 armor/spell resist.

Let's say your average heavy armor proctato has 25k armor, 2k impen, maybe 20% CP dmg reduction? (Leaving pen and crit modifiers out for now) How much does your 10k (after battle spirit) atk crit them for? About 7,155 (5,360 non crit). Meanwhile against a shield, you'll just do the 10k not even factoring in points in shattering blows.

Im not saying heavy armor isnt better at defense than shields. But we are speaking about medium armor skill. Fact that it is viable and heavily used by heavy armor is the only "bad" thing about it. Nerfing it in way that makes it much worse for medium armor skills is destroying the skill. That 10k damage attack on your shield deals only slightly less to medium armor user, do it twice and he is dead (or at least open to executions).
The only reason shuffle is even comparable to shields are those lucky times when it procs on that high damage/cc skill.

how to easy solve this problem then?

make those active armor skills usable only while you are wearing minimum 5 pieces of ths armor to this skill

then will be no more use shuffle by tankiest heavy armor scrubs

TBH I see no problem in that, but it wouldnt satisfy people who think this skill is OP because someone won a jackpot and dodged 3 attacks in a row. Not that anyone from ZoS should care about opinion of people with very very selective memory.

Lava_Croft · November 2016

Edziu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

Show me your 20k hardened ward in Cyrodiil. Also shields aren't equivalent to HP, while they cannot be crit, they have 0 armor/spell resist.

Let's say your average heavy armor proctato has 25k armor, 2k impen, maybe 20% CP dmg reduction? (Leaving pen and crit modifiers out for now) How much does your 10k (after battle spirit) atk crit them for? About 7,155 (5,360 non crit). Meanwhile against a shield, you'll just do the 10k not even factoring in points in shattering blows.

Im not saying heavy armor isnt better at defense than shields. But we are speaking about medium armor skill. Fact that it is viable and heavily used by heavy armor is the only "bad" thing about it. Nerfing it in way that makes it much worse for medium armor skills is destroying the skill. That 10k damage attack on your shield deals only slightly less to medium armor user, do it twice and he is dead (or at least open to executions).
The only reason shuffle is even comparable to shields are those lucky times when it procs on that high damage/cc skill.

how to easy solve this problem then?

make those active armor skills usable only while you are wearing minimum 5 pieces of ths armor to this skill

then will be no more use shuffle by tankiest heavy armor scrubs

This has been suggested many times before, but it obviously makes too much sense for people like Wrobel. It's how Immovable got gutted.

FloppyTouch · November 2016

Make it like dk wings sure let it last 20s but after 4 misses it goes away it's the best balance for Stam gets to keep it the skill still last a long time but after the 4 misses they have to pop shuffle again eating up more resources. I don't think anyone has an issue with this.

WhiteMage · November 2016

Granting immunity on demand to anything, especially where there is no other way to get it*, is a bad idea if it doesn't come at an exorbitant cost. The thing about immunity is there is no counter to it. It would be far better for roots to grant some sort of protection against subsequent roots and leave shuffle/morphs with a root removal. Can you imagine if the templar's purge provided immunity to negative effects? There is no counterplay to that or anything of that nature.

*2h line excluded

Anti_Virus · November 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

It would be super balance and fair to put shuffle on a six second cooldown just like shields but you may need to reduce the cost of the skill for lowering the time

How is having 20% chance do dodge on 6sec balanced and fair to having 6s of extra 20k hp + ignoring crits and penetration?

Show me your 20k hardened ward in Cyrodiil. Also shields aren't equivalent to HP, while they cannot be crit, they have 0 armor/spell resist.

Let's say your average heavy armor proctato has 25k armor, 2k impen, maybe 20% CP dmg reduction? (Leaving pen and crit modifiers out for now) How much does your 10k (after battle spirit) atk crit them for? About 7,155 (5,360 non crit). Meanwhile against a shield, you'll just do the 10k not even factoring in points in shattering blows.

You can't leave pen and crit modifiers out unless you don't use them. 25K spell resistance means nothing if you use a sharpened staff + LA passive + major breech + Spell erosion CP

Also gotta love the magicka players logic, if it benefits stamina players nerf it to the ground, but leave double take alone because it does the EXACT same thing as shuffle.