ZOS are you trying to remove magicka builds or did you make a mistake?

GazettE · August 2016

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

The answer would be

"Intended"

e1team · August 2016

Humatiel wrote: »

e1team wrote: »

You can argue all you want about who's OP up until you drop all your gear down to your underpants and try raw damage. If both can pull the same DPS then the balancing issue is with the gear. Which is not an issue in my opinion.

I'll pay you 1k gold for every second of a video showing me a magicka class pulling 45k dps in a single target fight. Hell I'll praise your name to the heavens if you can find a video showing a magicka class pulling 50k+. Until then better to be silent then act on information you clearly don't have.

I never said magicka better than stamina. It was a suggestion... God people do get offended these days so easily! What I suggest is take two characters, respec them for min/max, take off all of the gear and test the raw DPS. Why people don't do that? I understand that some gear is better than the other, but really, why not rule out potential bottlenecks first?
Sorry I offended you man... NOT!!!!!

TARAFRAKA · August 2016

e1team wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

e1team wrote: »

You can argue all you want about who's OP up until you drop all your gear down to your underpants and try raw damage. If both can pull the same DPS then the balancing issue is with the gear. Which is not an issue in my opinion.

I'll pay you 1k gold for every second of a video showing me a magicka class pulling 45k dps in a single target fight. Hell I'll praise your name to the heavens if you can find a video showing a magicka class pulling 50k+. Until then better to be silent then act on information you clearly don't have.

I never said magicka better than stamina. It was a suggestion... God people do get offended these days so easily! What I suggest is take two characters, respec them for min/max, take off all of the gear and test the raw DPS. Why people don't do that? I understand that some gear is better than the other, but really, why not rule out potential bottlenecks first?
Sorry I offended you man... NOT!!!!!

That test would make zero sense and here's why.
Because your gear, skills, passive etc ALL contribute to your dps. Taking it all off to see if the base damage is similar is about as logical as stripping a Mercedes and a Pinto down to their base components and saying well they're both frames of a car so they are "balanced". Once you put everything back into the frames, trust me honey, the Mercedes is going to vastly outperform the Pinto.
What magic vs stamina do at their base is irrelevant because no one goes into trials without gear, skills, passives and cp allocation.

Esquire1980g_ESO · August 2016

Since the latest patch I have noticed a markable drop in DPS on my mag/temp.

I just noticed tonight that while my sustain is about what I had before the patch (within 20 or so points) I'm running out of mag much quicker now, even against elites and have to heavy attack to get some back.

Then, I started looking, it appears to me that sustain is not always working during combat. And my 1800+ regen is probably less than 1/2 that in all actuallity. It's going to take a bit more testing before I report it but just made this discovery tonight, in fact.

This is part of the reasoning for my DPS going down, it appears.

Now, the design for a DPS race that ZOS has made is nothing more than a pure MMORPG mistake. And with the NERF to sustain builds, people will gravitate to even MORE DPS and 1-shot spike kills which will have this game about as interesting in PVP as Star Trek Online (STO). Whoever makes it to the button 1st, wins. That KILLED PVP over there and it'll do it here too. To remove soft caps on DPS builds and keep them, and even NERF tanking, sustain healing builds is at the least, counterproductive. At the most, a game killer.

ZOS really needs to re-think what their doing to this game via design. I played SWG for 9 years. I can certainly tell you about developer design mistakes. I'm really hoping here that history does not repeat itself. For sure, I'll not put up with more of the same for another 9 years.

RebornV3x · August 2016

if the DB patch was any indication ZOS is trying to get rid of Magicka specs they already trashed the Sorcerer class so I'm not surprised at the imbalance.

Humatiel · August 2016

e1team wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

e1team wrote: »

You can argue all you want about who's OP up until you drop all your gear down to your underpants and try raw damage. If both can pull the same DPS then the balancing issue is with the gear. Which is not an issue in my opinion.

I'll pay you 1k gold for every second of a video showing me a magicka class pulling 45k dps in a single target fight. Hell I'll praise your name to the heavens if you can find a video showing a magicka class pulling 50k+. Until then better to be silent then act on information you clearly don't have.

I never said magicka better than stamina. It was a suggestion... God people do get offended these days so easily! What I suggest is take two characters, respec them for min/max, take off all of the gear and test the raw DPS. Why people don't do that? I understand that some gear is better than the other, but really, why not rule out potential bottlenecks first?
Sorry I offended you man... NOT!!!!!

the rage is real I see, but to matters that arent so laughable. I never once mentioned the validity of a gear vs non gear environment, I was pointing out that in a real environment Stam wins always.

e1team · August 2016

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

That test would make zero sense and here's why.
Because your gear, skills, passive etc ALL contribute to your dps. Taking it all off to see if the base damage is similar is about as logical as stripping a Mercedes and a Pinto down to their base components and saying well they're both frames of a car so they are "balanced". Once you put everything back into the frames, trust me honey, the Mercedes is going to vastly outperform the Pinto.
What magic vs stamina do at their base is irrelevant because no one goes into trials without gear, skills, passives and cp allocation.

Ok. I can see sense in that. But then, if what you say stamina builds vs mag builds will yield similar results stripped it only means that the gear is not balanced not the builds. Then we should ask for better gear not tweaks to our classes.
And in my original post i meant only gear. CP and passives should be allocated for the test of course.

Humatiel · August 2016

e1team wrote: »

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

That test would make zero sense and here's why.
Because your gear, skills, passive etc ALL contribute to your dps. Taking it all off to see if the base damage is similar is about as logical as stripping a Mercedes and a Pinto down to their base components and saying well they're both frames of a car so they are "balanced". Once you put everything back into the frames, trust me honey, the Mercedes is going to vastly outperform the Pinto.
What magic vs stamina do at their base is irrelevant because no one goes into trials without gear, skills, passives and cp allocation.

Ok. I can see sense in that. But then, if what you say stamina builds vs mag builds will yield similar results stripped it only means that the gear is not balanced not the builds. Then we should ask for better gear not tweaks to our classes.
And in my original post i meant only gear. CP and passives should be allocated for the test of course.

Knock Maelstrom weapons down 1.5k and make jabs 1.5s and you've fixed the problem.

andreasranasen · August 2016

As a magicka sorc and have been playing since day 1. She just feels very botched compared to all these stam people. Give magicka based people some love. I'm sick of all these dizzying swing, incapacitating strike spamming going on.

e1team · August 2016

Humatiel wrote: »

the rage is real I see, but to matters that arent so laughable. I never once mentioned the validity of a gear vs non gear environment, I was pointing out that in a real environment Stam wins always.

Alright! We're getting somewhere. You say that on the real battlefield stam builds win. I agree. I just purpose to see whether it's gear fault or unbalanced build system. That is all. So we would know what to complain about. Can you not see sense in that? Allocate points to get max out of you build. Put on some level 1 gear and test!

Ep1kMalware · August 2016

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

I can't give tou an agree, it's just too whiny. Also they are implementing some new foods that are susposed to greatly aid in sustain.

My honest guess is they have plans for magica, we'll have to probably wait until the next eso-live to find out what though. FWIW, magica nb can easilly pull 50k dps. Also, the whole 50k dps this is hugelt exaggerated. not many players can do a 50k bloodspawn, these numbers are heing done in extremely well coordinated groups:

tank running alkosh/tava/bloodspawn, blowihg warhorn.

1x healer running twilight for minor force, other healer running spc/aether, using combat prayer. Then, even then, you need to be very good at your rotation/have a great lag/bug free connection.

When you stop to consider <1% of players are pulling these numbers under tight circumstance, big whoop.

Mojmir · August 2016

Next update I want mage guild skills buffed and reworked to accommodate what was done too fighters guild line.

KisoValley · August 2016

Stamina DPS takes over for a few months and everyone is crying lmfao. Shows how bad players are imo, they can't adapt or just refuse to adapt.

I agree it's imbalanced but it was in the favour of magicka builds for so long and I saw a lot less crying.

The main thing that makes stamina DPS OTT is the maelstrom weapons. They're crazy strong, usually I would say buff magicka but with the way the game is going both in terms of PVP & PVE, I would rather see nerfs to everything. ZOS are incompetent though.

Lumenn · August 2016

It's odd reading this. When I started(less than 3 months ago) most posts going way back, most responses to many of the "class start" etc was stamina sux, magicka is king. Don't bother starting a stamina, go magicka until max then change etc etc. It was so biased towards magicka I wondered if I had the right game for me(i like pure melee. Eventually settled on stamina sorcerer. May not ever be top dog but I'm having fun)

Reading this DOES bring an EQ memory back though. Monks were dmg dealers with some defense. Nothing as good as a tank but off tank in a pinch. A new pants for monks dropped giving HUGE ac (60) and the tanks began to cry. Only the top 1% of monks could get them at that time but instead of fixing the gear, they nerfed the whole class. I'd hate to see that happen here. I'm new. (and I work a LOT. little time to play)I haven't made it to end game yet so I don't know. But if itemization is the real issue then don't nerf stamina builds.

SanTii.92 · August 2016

I agree - the disbalance is pretty noticeable. I'd start nerfing cruel flurry enchant by 30% and probably rearming trap, both are overperforming too hard. Move from there.

Ep1kMalware · August 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

Next update I want mage guild skills buffed and reworked to accommodate what was done too fighters guild line.

so you want it crapped on and nerfed to pieces? OKAY!

Van_0S · August 2016

SleepyTroll wrote: »

They all ways go so crazy with balancing, every update is complete changes to the meta. They should really do small tweaks every week. Wrobel even said they didn't really do any balancing this update because they wanted to keep the current meta.

Pfft......wrobel ! He will make the earth the center of our solar system, instead of the sun.
Edit:
On topic,
Yes, OP ! I also have noticed that Stam build are very powerful( infact more powerful than magicka builds). I have to use cost reduction rings in dungeons and trails by sacrificing my DPS. In PvP, my magicka pool gets drained fast. So, I am forced to use destro staff or cost reduction rings.

SanTii.92 · August 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

I can't give tou an agree, it's just too whiny. Also they are implementing some new foods that are susposed to greatly aid in sustain.

My honest guess is they have plans for magica, we'll have to probably wait until the next eso-live to find out what though. FWIW, magica nb can easilly pull 50k dps. Also, the whole 50k dps this is hugelt exaggerated. not many players can do a 50k bloodspawn, these numbers are heing done in extremely well coordinated groups:

tank running alkosh/tava/bloodspawn, blowihg warhorn.

1x healer running twilight for minor force, other healer running spc/aether, using combat prayer. Then, even then, you need to be very good at your rotation/have a great lag/bug free connection.

When you stop to consider <1% of players are pulling these numbers under tight circumstance, big whoop.

Thing is the problem is not only comparing the highest dps mechanically achievable, but also all the 'in betweens'. Let's say you put two equally skilled players, same class but stam-mag counterparts there will be a 5 to 15k dps difference I'd say.

Asmael · August 2016

Step 1) Fix Cruel flurry from Maelstrom weapons, since it's not consumed on Rearming trap / axe bleed
Step 2) Fix the sustain. I'm running 2p Kena on a stam DK and still have better sustain than my Nerieneth mag sorc...

timidobserver · August 2016

Yeh, at this point you are doing your group a disservice if you aren't dpsing as stam.

DerpyShadowz · August 2016

Best i managed was 44.5k on Manti, But even so, Usually our best Magicka players in raid, we tend to sit between 40-42k for the most part on average, While on average stam can still face roll 50k.

Our Magicka players are at a point now where we don't even bother looking at stam parses or comparing and just compare between ourselves lol

http://i.imgur.com/p9Jn4MV.png
http://i.imgur.com/mg67pEl.png

But, as you can see from the parse, the 2 bottom posts in the chat box are from Stam DK's that still are further ahead, even on a bad 46k attempt, Cause both of them can do over 50k, So just goes to show even on the most worst Stamina attempt you can still face roll higher than a Magicka build pouring out everything its got.

This was Pre Update 11 parses.

The MSA dual wields are the biggest issue atm imo.

Dracane · August 2016

Look at CP passives like unchained (80% cost reduction on all stam abilities after breaking free or roll dodging)
And you know, that stamina just gets everything in this game.

We can just hope, that the next update is going to help magicka. Because it's unbareable at the moment.

Runefang · August 2016

Do people really care about that difference in dps that much? Will be a magicka based dps really hamper my group playing?

Minnesinger · August 2016

I can only hope that they focus on stamina at the moment. Magicka will get its own boost in the next DLC. If that doesn´t happen I seriously question the thinking behind buffing already strong stamina builds.

/Signed

Bonzodog01 · August 2016

And yet, here I am on my Magplar facerolling pretty much all content in front of me. I think you will find a well set-up magplar can still pull ridiculous DPS, especially in PvE.

Alcast · August 2016

Magicka and Stamina both has its uses. Not always is stamina a better choice for example in trials. Have fun doing a Hardmoe of AA or MoL with only stamboy. You gonna have A BAD time.

THE ONLY REASON why stamina does more damage is due to Maelstrom Dagger/Axe. Without those the dps would be almost identical.

Mojmir · August 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Next update I want mage guild skills buffed and reworked to accommodate what was done too fighters guild line.

so you want it crapped on and nerfed to pieces? OKAY!

Dawn breaker of smiting and rearming trap are good for you? Lol

STEVIL · August 2016

So, already it seems to me from the posts on this thread that several things are likely true:
1: In group battles with certain unspecified stam-builds and unspecified allies and unspecified target debuffs from outside sources and unspecified buffs from outside sources - stam can out dps mag by a wide margin of maybe 10k.
2 - Some think certain mag builds (elegant overload kena) might be able to compete but those builds are not approved of for comparison for some reason?
3 - Some think a key issue is gear differential - most specifically M-Wps dual wield citing 5-10k gains just from equipping those. others dont care to test without gear to help narrow in where the difference is from (clas-race-skill vs gear bonuses)

I would add another question to the mix.

How does it look solo?

What is the best DPS output for stamina against single target and then with multi-target without any outside assistance - including lack of an external healer? Is the difference reduced or even reversed if the attacker doesn't have others healing them up, drawing fire, restocking offensive and defensive buffs and debuffing the enemies?

Unless your sole judge of balance is in a very narrow segment of comparison, the gear-equal and solo cases need to be explored, compared and factored into the situation.

The 50k videos spotlight a situation where there are lotsa external variable at play. They do make up data but not a conclusive argument in their own right - especially not for any specific type of change like say "buff magica guild skills."

IMO

davidj8291 · August 2016

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

Magplars are the bane of my Stam-based existence in PvP. Lol.

Basically infinite self heals while weaving DPS, meanwhile, all I have is Vigor.

It's balanced. Magicka has a lot more self healing available on most builds, excluding the DK it seems.

If you can manage your stamina well, a Magicka player can wreck a Stam player easily. Just depends on situations.

Draxys · August 2016

KisoValley wrote: »

Stamina DPS takes over for a few months and everyone is crying lmfao. Shows how bad players are imo, they can't adapt or just refuse to adapt.

I agree it's imbalanced but it was in the favour of magicka builds for so long and I saw a lot less crying.

The main thing that makes stamina DPS OTT is the maelstrom weapons. They're crazy strong, usually I would say buff magicka but with the way the game is going both in terms of PVP & PVE, I would rather see nerfs to everything. ZOS are incompetent though.

Wow, another flawlessly logical post.

Magicka being stronger for a long period of the game is not and never will be justification for the current imbalance.