ZOS are you trying to remove magicka builds or did you make a mistake?

Reykice

Francescolg wrote: »

@Reykice
I don't have the time to read all answers to your thread, so pardon!

To answer you: ZOS wants to focus on the "jump & run aspect" of ESO, that is what stamina classes are made for: Roll Dodge, Sprint, Block, bash-interrupt, cc-break, weapon attack, etc. ALL THESE FUNTIONS are in the focus for ESO to distinguish ESO from other MMORPGs and to make it unique! So, lets call this stamina-functions the very basic base of the game, the way ESO works, the way they want you to do pvp! This way and no other!

From this follows: ZOS does not want you to play "classic" magicka-classes, that don't like to roll/sprint/block/bash-interrupt/weapon attack. They want you, errr, I mean THEY FORCE YOU TO USE this stamina-functions in PvP/PvE. If you don't want to play ESO THIS WAY, if you want to just stand in the back and push your skill, your are an enemy You are against the "way they want you to play ESO". This is why stamina has the better equipment, skills, etc. This is why many, and I mean really many strong/competent players dropped within the first few months after release of ESO

(my post contains some irony and has not to be taken too seriously!)

If this is their final goal its their game after all but i`d like them to say it.

We are on page 3, lets see how long until one of their Community Managers, people hired to talk to the Community gives us any answer or at least admits we might be on to something.

CapuchinSeven

Carbonised wrote: »

Everything is stamina these days. Tons of stamina sets from trials and dungeons, even stamina craftable sets. Tons of variation for stamina, and not to mention a huge difference in DPS..

Even in PVP, I went to take a look at the new vendors and... it's nearly all stamina...

Ch4mpTW

Alcast wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

THE ONLY REASON why stamina does more damage is due to Maelstrom Dagger/Axe. Without those the dps would be almost identical.

Well that's pretty much what we are talking about, isn't it

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Magicka and Stamina both has its uses. Not always is stamina a better choice for example in trials. Have fun doing a Hardmoe of AA or MoL with only stamboy. You gonna have A BAD time.

THE ONLY REASON why stamina does more damage is due to Maelstrom Dagger/Axe. Without those the dps would be almost identical.

Major reason is weapon skills line and class Abilities getting so much buffed with 5k WP + Viper Set (simply amazing) + Velidreth (new set)

The reason why it does not get nerfed is because it is not affecting PVP that much...... ><

Exactly. That's exactly what it is. Things do NOT get done "balance-wise", until the PVP crowd gets fed-up starts making a ruckus. Then things get done. Case and point? @FENGRUSH was on ZOS' helmet heavy nonstop with people backing his claims up (and his claim were true) about how much PVP is leaning towards magicka and not stamina. And look at what happened, especially with say Proxinity Detonation. Lol. And now look at what happened. Even more so, look at how beautiful StamSorcs are doing. And see how the huge overhaul stamina has gotten in just 2 patches. That's crazy progress. Literally a complete 180.

I guess the PVE crowd needs some outspoken magicka PVE users, who are willing to throw and drag ZOS under the bus. And constantly slam them, until things get done constantly both in streams and YouTube videos alike.

And by the way, that was no insult to that man Feng. He speaks a lot of truth on things, and had the data to back his claims up. Which caused people to back his claims up. So much respect and salute to that man, for being able to get the momentum going to get stuff done in stamina's favor.

Oh, and 1 last thing. To the people saying how Maelstrom Weapons further widen the gap between magicka and stamina? You're 100% correct. While I may still lack Maelstrom destruction staves, I have every stamina Maelstrom Weapon in perfect traits. And in testing a I do with buddies, my damage always outperforms their damage. And that's with them using maelstrom destruction staves to my maelstrom DW or greatsword. It's silly how far of a gap exists between magicka and stamina. How easy it is get high crit and high weapon damage, compared to high crit and high spell damage. High stamina sustain compared to high magicka sustain.

Reykice

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

THE ONLY REASON why stamina does more damage is due to Maelstrom Dagger/Axe. Without those the dps would be almost identical.

Well that's pretty much what we are talking about, isn't it

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Magicka and Stamina both has its uses. Not always is stamina a better choice for example in trials. Have fun doing a Hardmoe of AA or MoL with only stamboy. You gonna have A BAD time.

THE ONLY REASON why stamina does more damage is due to Maelstrom Dagger/Axe. Without those the dps would be almost identical.

Major reason is weapon skills line and class Abilities getting so much buffed with 5k WP + Viper Set (simply amazing) + Velidreth (new set)

The reason why it does not get nerfed is because it is not affecting PVP that much...... ><

Exactly. That's exactly what it is. Things do NOT get done "balance-wise", until the PVP crowd gets fed-up starts making a ruckus. Then things get done. Case and point? @FENGRUSH was on ZOS' helmet heavy nonstop with people backing his claims up (and his claim were true) about how much PVP is leaning towards magicka and not stamina. And look at what happened, especially with say Proxinity Detonation. Lol. And now look at what happened. Even more so, look at how beautiful StamSorcs are doing. And see how the huge overhaul stamina has gotten in just 2 patches. That's crazy progress. Literally a complete 180.

I guess the PVE crowd needs some outspoken magicka PVE users, who are willing to throw and drag ZOS under the bus. And constantly slam them, until things get done constantly both in streams and YouTube videos alike.

And by the way, that was no insult to that man Feng. He speaks a lot of truth on things, and had the data to back his claims up. Which caused people to back his claims up. So much respect and salute to that man, for being able to get the momentum going to get stuff done in stamina's favor.

Oh, and 1 last thing. To the people saying how Maelstrom Weapons further widen the gap between magicka and stamina? You're 100% correct. While I may still lack Maelstrom destruction staves, I have every stamina Maelstrom Weapon in perfect traits. And in testing a I do with buddies, my damage always outperforms their damage. And that's with them using maelstrom destruction staves to my maelstrom DW or greatsword. It's silly how far of a gap exists between magicka and stamina. How easy it is get high crit and high weapon damage, compared to high crit and high spell damage. High stamina sustain compared to high magicka sustain.

Exactly... and we all know it to be true but somehow ZOS is ignoring the issue or wants people to stop using magicka or leave or they just made a mistake, i`ll admit i`m not sure what it is so i figured lets just ask them.

Nobody wants to be weaker by design... and right now every magicka build is weaker thanks to the way the game is. It can be fixed but they must first admit there is an imbalance then they will fix it.

Lets see how long it takes for them to respond. They have people hired to respond to this kind of thread... eventually, not sure what qualifies a thread to get a response.

Armitas

Van_0S wrote: »

What ZOS should do is nerf dawnbreaker ! Its OP like hell for all stamina builds. I get 1 shotted by a NB tanker ( can't heal at that time, due to the dot damage and stun which is instant.)

Edit: I just want to see wrobel get nuked by it ( that is, if he ever plays this game)

They wouldn't think twice about it. Remember in the last eso live where they were watching and laughing while that guy got nearly 1 shot by 15k poison? That is an exploitable bug, and it didn't even dawn on them that anything was out of place. Though maybe they were distracted by the camera.

bebynnag

this post makes me feel better about my inability to complete vMA.... i may be a noob, with L2P issues but i dont have to acknoledge it & can instead blame the games mechanics.

seriously though i prefer playing mag, they are more fun, i really do need to be in the mood to play my stam characters!

Van_0S

puffytheslayer wrote: »

this post makes me feel better about my inability to complete vMA.... i may be a noob, with L2P issues but i dont have to acknoledge it & can instead blame the games mechanics.

seriously though i prefer playing mag, they are more fun, i really do need to be in the mood to play my stam characters!

For me, I played Stam for a year and got really bored with it. Almost all stamina builds are same, they hardly use any class skills. Just spam this and that. Hence, its easy mode.

DUTCH_REAPER

People saying its a "l2p issue for magic builds, just get better" you obviously do not love this game and want the best for it nor do you consistently play magic builds. I have 9 characters some Stam some magic. My Stams have higher dps numbers then my mag builds now. I main a magic class. Fact of the matter is the game needs to be balanced better between mag and Stam. Period. You don't agree then you obviously don't care about balancing this game.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

It's hard to take you seriously when your first sentence is HIGHLY misleading. Yes, there a videos of some of the best stamina DPS in the world pulling just over 50K on manti, but that is certainly not the norm. They are also doing this in highly optimized raid with several people wearing "stamina support" sets like alkosh, sunderflame, and NM. The stamina builds wearing these sets arent pulling 50k. Most good magic players pull 35k+ and I see good ones pulling into the 40's. To say there is a 15k disparity in the DPS is simply false, and weakens your whole argument.

For me personally, my 2 mains in trails are a Magic and Stam DK. I pull about 5K more on stam, but at a cost. I must be at much closer range, I am far squishier, and I give no utility to my group. The rotation is much tougher and way less forgiving. Stam should pull more DPS with these sacrifices.

idk

clocksstoppe wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Have you tried the new sun set on dk?

Game is so dead I can't find anyone who does Hel Ra so the answer to this question will always be "no".

@clocksstoppe

Your assessment could not be further from the truth. I have three guild running HRC constantly.

Maybe look for some more active guilds.

DRXHarbinger

The things you're missing here is..

Range...stam are crap at range.

Shields...all magika players have access to easy defense...when a magika players runs out of stam..spam shields to survive that little bit longer...stam player dead with no stam.

Magika NB has permacloak..again in solo PvE it's god mode. Even use it vma and for instance the spiders on round 6 just say "stun" whilst you get to a pillar and nothing resets...also has the famous. .proxy on...cloak...concealed weapon..Soul tether. .goodbye combo.

Sorcs have streak, a massive shield..super powered knock down frags, overload which make epic for ambushing in pvp. Due to lag you'll get the two hits needed to kill someone if you get them behind they'll never see it.

Templars have thier own house..huge heals...jap2dps+heal...plus the lest we forget..oh look you're at 30%.health..goodbye (Tel Var noise in the background)

Stamina players have no real choice but to stand and slug it out..vigor only does so much, rally is a crap heal..blood craze is laughable so it's perfectly reasonable to have higher power.

It was only what February that this forum was crying out nerf sorc...nerf magblade, knock down the templar house....now apparantly magika builds are dead....

Plus stam is boring. Doesn't matter what class you pick. What race you use its all the same...dull.

jknight201

Alcast wrote: »

Magicka and Stamina both has its uses. Not always is stamina a better choice for example in trials. Have fun doing a Hardmoe of AA or MoL with only stamboy. You gonna have A BAD time.

THE ONLY REASON why stamina does more damage is due to Maelstrom Dagger/Axe. Without those the dps would be almost identical.

Have fun doing AA HM or vMOL when your range magicka DPS are doing half the damage of your stamina builds.

And I'm sorry, but you're wrong about Maelstrom weapons. Are Maelstrom weapons OP for stamina users? Yeah. Is that the only reason stamina users can pull more damage? No. Magicka builds just have too many problems (required toggles, lack of spammable DPS abilities, bugged abilities, etc.) combined with Zos' buffs for stamina toons of late.

And don't even try to claim that the classes and types (magicka vs. stamina) are even remotely balanced in this game... they aren't.

Reykice

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

It's hard to take you seriously when your first sentence is HIGHLY misleading. Yes, there a videos of some of the best stamina DPS in the world pulling just over 50K on manti, but that is certainly not the norm. They are also doing this in highly optimized raid with several people wearing "stamina support" sets like alkosh, sunderflame, and NM. The stamina builds wearing these sets arent pulling 50k. Most good magic players pull 35k+ and I see good ones pulling into the 40's. To say there is a 15k disparity in the DPS is simply false, and weakens your whole argument.

For me personally, my 2 mains in trails are a Magic and Stam DK. I pull about 5K more on stam, but at a cost. I must be at much closer range, I am far squishier, and I give no utility to my group. The rotation is much tougher and way less forgiving. Stam should pull more DPS with these sacrifices.

So you say most magic pulls 35k to 40k and stamina is 50k but saying there is a 15k difference between them is misleading? Come on.

Besides, the numbers are mainly from Hodor players... for both magicka and stamina. Its not some random pug mag build compared to the best stam build and player.

As i said, if anyone has proof, show it, prove me and everyone wrong, show me that 50k magicka build parse in a 2+ minute fight. I looked but i could not find any then again i`m human, if you know better show it, don`t just throw words.

As for mag vs stam sacrifices... well let us see here:

- stam has lower ability costs, most magicka skills cost much more and there is no 20% cost reduction in the weapon trees unlike stamina that has in on EVERY weapon. Try a Magicka Templar or a Sorcerer and go full out dps, see how fast you run out of magicka. Its so bad that even with full help like siphon and drain and so on you still can`t sustain Kena builds on Sorcs and that is with raid support. Stamina? They need none of that if redguard, all they ened to do is dps with no worry.
-
- stam has better sustain due to redguard. I dare you to argue here... in full dps gear the redguard passive is like having 500 more stamina regen on the character sheet. No magicka class even comes close.

- stam has better protection due to medium armor and the fact that some of their builds incorporate spells like Hurricane(major wards) in their dps rotation. Better mitigation means less chance to get 1shot or die before the healer tops you up

- stam has better mobility and cc break - no need to explain this i think

- stam range is 8m, a pretty big distance... Rapid Strike and other skills work from that range so its not like you have to hug the boss to damage it, 8m is quite the range for a "melee" build not to mention the other weapon is usually the bow.(even pure bow builds do 37k unbuffed that translates to 45k+ in a trial)

- stam also has more damage, this has been proven a lot lately


At this point if stamina gets a decent heal the best groups will be 100% stamina.

Reykice

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

The things you're missing here is..

Range...stam are crap at range.

Shields...all magika players have access to easy defense...when a magika players runs out of stam..spam shields to survive that little bit longer...stam player dead with no stam.

Magika NB has permacloak..again in solo PvE it's god mode. Even use it vma and for instance the spiders on round 6 just say "stun" whilst you get to a pillar and nothing resets...also has the famous. .proxy on...cloak...concealed weapon..Soul tether. .goodbye combo.

Sorcs have streak, a massive shield..super powered knock down frags, overload which make epic for ambushing in pvp. Due to lag you'll get the two hits needed to kill someone if you get them behind they'll never see it.

Templars have thier own house..huge heals...jap2dps+heal...plus the lest we forget..oh look you're at 30%.health..goodbye (Tel Var noise in the background)

Stamina players have no real choice but to stand and slug it out..vigor only does so much, rally is a crap heal..blood craze is laughable so it's perfectly reasonable to have higher power.

It was only what February that this forum was crying out nerf sorc...nerf magblade, knock down the templar house....now apparantly magika builds are dead....

Plus stam is boring. Doesn't matter what class you pick. What race you use its all the same...dull.

I will just point you to this STAMINA DK soloing Veteran City of Ash:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=hxRTH2QMbSQ

Now you tell me more about that poor stamina survivability that is oh so much worse vs magicka.

He is tanking Skoria in his enrage phase after he took out all the platforms... while killing him. I`d say that is a decent amount of survivability... and that Vigor is not so bad as you make it out to be.

Joy_Division

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

I pull about 5K more on stam, but at a cost. I must be at much closer range, I am far squishier, and I give no utility to my group. The rotation is much tougher and way less forgiving. Stam should pull more DPS with these sacrifices.

This rationale is highly questionable.

"I'm squishier!" No you are not. Your medium armor provides you with more innate physical and spell resistance than my light armor. You have access to an excellent AoE heal that is not tied to a weapon. You have a resource to draw upon for defensive purposes. I get it, you're not a tank but neither am I so stop pretending that you are in greater danger of dying.

"I must be at much closer range!" That's zero problem in ESO. With a game with such easy access to gap closers, the whole range-melee distinction is almost meaningless except on castle walls in cyrdoiil. For all the insistence on being "disadvantaged" by having to be up close, these builds immediately, repeatedly, and upon command get up close (and stay there) with gap closer (which themselves are excellent abilities). The pure melee style of play is effective and pervasive, many players don't even bother slotting any range capabilities.

"I give no utility to my group!" Yes you do and more so than my magicka build. You have the option to slot a selfish heal (which you can always slot without compromising your builds) that actually heals me and the rest of the group. I'm not even going to bother slotting the terrible restoration staff. Raid needs rapids? Sorry, I won't be doing that. Circle of Protection? Nope, look to the stamina guy who does 5K more DPS than me. As as a magicka DK, what utility am I providing? 10% extra fire damage to the group who is using primarily physical damage? Overlapping major brutality from Igneous weapons? Chains? I'm sure magicka templsrs, NBs, and sorcs are just thrilled their DPS pulls are thousands less just so a DK can chain stuff.

How exactly is a stam rotation tougher? Because you have to be close? DK whips and templar jabs require the dame range and exposed to the same dangers. All rotations require correct time, proper animation cancelling, and a stationary target.

These are just selective justifications why X build should be superior to Y build.

DenMoria

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

The short answer is:

The devs working on classes and general balance have no clue what they are doing.

At least you can't stamina heal PvE content.... Magicka still has that... Lol.

The balance is good now, stamplars just need a few more buffs.

I'm playing my first stamplar right now, and even though she's very low level, I have to admit that she's basically invincible. Not only can she deal out ridiculous amounts of damage (far above her level IMO), but she heals almost instantly, either through spell or just by dealing damage.

She's fun, if a little ridiculous.

Xeven

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

I pull about 5K more on stam, but at a cost. I must be at much closer range, I am far squishier, and I give no utility to my group. The rotation is much tougher and way less forgiving. Stam should pull more DPS with these sacrifices.

This rationale is highly questionable.

"I'm squishier!" No you are not. Your medium armor provides you with more innate physical and spell resistance than my light armor. You have access to an excellent AoE heal that is not tied to a weapon. You have a resource to draw upon for defensive purposes. I get it, you're not a tank but neither am I so stop pretending that you are in greater danger of dying.

"I must be at much closer range!" That's zero problem in ESO. With a game with such easy access to gap closers, the whole range-melee distinction is almost meaningless except on castle walls in cyrdoiil. For all the insistence on being "disadvantaged" by having to be up close, these builds immediately, repeatedly, and upon command get up close (and stay there) with gap closer (which themselves are excellent abilities). The pure melee style of play is effective and pervasive, many players don't even bother slotting any range capabilities.

"I give no utility to my group!" Yes you do and more so than my magicka build. You have the option to slot a selfish heal (which you can always slot without compromising your builds) that actually heals me and the rest of the group. I'm not even going to bother slotting the terrible restoration staff. Raid needs rapids? Sorry, I won't be doing that. Circle of Protection? Nope, look to the stamina guy who does 5K more DPS than me. As as a magicka DK, what utility am I providing? 10% extra fire damage to the group who is using primarily physical damage? Overlapping major brutality from Igneous weapons? Chains? I'm sure magicka templsrs, NBs, and sorcs are just thrilled their DPS pulls are thousands less just so a DK can chain stuff.

How exactly is a stam rotation tougher? Because you have to be close? DK whips and templar jabs require the dame range and exposed to the same dangers. All rotations require correct time, proper animation cancelling, and a stationary target.

These are just selective justifications why X build should be superior to Y build.

Rekt.

EölMPK

Its very sad to read posts like that. Balance must be 0 priotiry in every mmo, especially in a 2 years old mmo.

If ZoS needs it, I really want to get a job in north america

Foxic

jknight201 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Magicka and Stamina both has its uses. Not always is stamina a better choice for example in trials. Have fun doing a Hardmoe of AA or MoL with only stamboy. You gonna have A BAD time.

THE ONLY REASON why stamina does more damage is due to Maelstrom Dagger/Axe. Without those the dps would be almost identical.

Have fun doing AA HM or vMOL when your range magicka DPS are doing half the damage of your stamina builds.

And I'm sorry, but you're wrong about Maelstrom weapons. Are Maelstrom weapons OP for stamina users? Yeah. Is that the only reason stamina users can pull more damage? No. Magicka builds just have too many problems (required toggles, lack of spammable DPS abilities, bugged abilities, etc.) combined with Zos' buffs for stamina toons of late.

And don't even try to claim that the classes and types (magicka vs. stamina) are even remotely balanced in this game... they aren't.

You realize that guy youre talking to is on the best raid team in the game? He knows full where it is beneficial to have magicka dps. Magicka builds excel for AA anyway, i was almost always the top dps in the raid when i ran it last. I know this is only a two minute parse but it shows how much dps a PURE RANGE magicka sorc can do

http://i.imgur.com/tx6gkVi.png

I have seen you in many threads and many posters have tried to help you understand end game better but its like youre refusing any advice given to you

Thealteregoroman

@Reykice I think they are prepping us for spell crafting...........

s7732425ub17_ESO

I've seen a few posts about this, but I feel like it needs to be talked about more.

Stam DPS SUUUUCCCKS at ranged. Let's talk real numbers. My stamina templar pulls 25k DPS single target melee. The exact same character pulls 12k from ranged. Mag DPS still pulls pretty much the same numbers at ranged, and my characters usually get 21kish. And in tons of content, having ranged DPS is much safer and sometimes even required.

If you have a fight where the boss literally stands in the exact same spot for the entire time, stam DPS will win. If you have a fight where the boss moves around a bunch or if you as a player have to move around a bunch, magicka DPS will crush stamina DPS.

I recently did the scaled up VDSA. We went with one stamina DPS, one magicka DPS. The stamina DPS kept dying over and over simply because pretty much every single boss has a melee ranged one-shot attack that is hard to avoid. As a magicka DPS, I just stood really far away, didn't die, and pulled decent DPS numbers. The stam DPS was pulling our group down very hard.

jknight201

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Magicka and Stamina both has its uses. Not always is stamina a better choice for example in trials. Have fun doing a Hardmoe of AA or MoL with only stamboy. You gonna have A BAD time.

THE ONLY REASON why stamina does more damage is due to Maelstrom Dagger/Axe. Without those the dps would be almost identical.

Have fun doing AA HM or vMOL when your range magicka DPS are doing half the damage of your stamina builds.

And I'm sorry, but you're wrong about Maelstrom weapons. Are Maelstrom weapons OP for stamina users? Yeah. Is that the only reason stamina users can pull more damage? No. Magicka builds just have too many problems (required toggles, lack of spammable DPS abilities, bugged abilities, etc.) combined with Zos' buffs for stamina toons of late.

And don't even try to claim that the classes and types (magicka vs. stamina) are even remotely balanced in this game... they aren't.

You realize that guy youre talking to is on the best raid team in the game? He knows full where it is beneficial to have magicka dps. Magicka builds excel for AA anyway, i was almost always the top dps in the raid when i ran it last. I know this is only a two minute parse but it shows how much dps a PURE RANGE magicka sorc can do

http://i.imgur.com/tx6gkVi.png

I have seen you in many threads and many posters have tried to help you understand end game better but its like youre refusing any advice given to you

Yeah, I know full well who is he. Just because he's a good player doesn't mean he's right about stamina vs. magicka. The game is imbalanced, live with it. Zos has proven time and again that they are unable or unwilling to balance the game. Anyone who denies that there is imbalance in the game between stamina and magicka toons is either lying or has another agenda.

And congrats on your excellent dps parse. Now let's talk about the other 99.99% of people in the game and what most people actually *do* pull. I never said that there aren't fights where ranged magicka is good and melee dps is bad. What I am saying is that, for the majority of players in the majority of fights, stamina DPS is significantly higher than magicka.

I'm not refusing advice, I'm simply pointing out how imbalanced the game is. If I just refuse any advice, then why are the majority of endgame DPS all stamina builds? Are they also just refusing advice as well?

DRXHarbinger

Reykice wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

The things you're missing here is..

Range...stam are crap at range.

Shields...all magika players have access to easy defense...when a magika players runs out of stam..spam shields to survive that little bit longer...stam player dead with no stam.

Magika NB has permacloak..again in solo PvE it's god mode. Even use it vma and for instance the spiders on round 6 just say "stun" whilst you get to a pillar and nothing resets...also has the famous. .proxy on...cloak...concealed weapon..Soul tether. .goodbye combo.

Sorcs have streak, a massive shield..super powered knock down frags, overload which make epic for ambushing in pvp. Due to lag you'll get the two hits needed to kill someone if you get them behind they'll never see it.

Templars have thier own house..huge heals...jap2dps+heal...plus the lest we forget..oh look you're at 30%.health..goodbye (Tel Var noise in the background)

Stamina players have no real choice but to stand and slug it out..vigor only does so much, rally is a crap heal..blood craze is laughable so it's perfectly reasonable to have higher power.

It was only what February that this forum was crying out nerf sorc...nerf magblade, knock down the templar house....now apparantly magika builds are dead....

Plus stam is boring. Doesn't matter what class you pick. What race you use its all the same...dull.

I will just point you to this STAMINA DK soloing Veteran City of Ash:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=hxRTH2QMbSQ

Now you tell me more about that poor stamina survivability that is oh so much worse vs magicka.

He is tanking Skoria in his enrage phase after he took out all the platforms... while killing him. I`d say that is a decent amount of survivability... and that Vigor is not so bad as you make it out to be.

Ok now you do it..

I couldn't do it. My stam dk done vma without rally. Corrosive is epic but short lived. So what? Skoria is one boss...that video is by one beast of a player 99.99% of stam DKs couldn't do that. Skoria is a very slow hitting boss too. Attacks are easy to see and dodge for the awesome players.

Put a DK against the overfiend and see what happens. It'd eat a DK in a solo battle.

Sorcs can solo Kena, Stam DKs simply cannot (can't kill atros quick enough whilst surviving) need ward and overload.

It's situational. It's hardly a case maker for calling stam DKs OP. Plus a DK can't hit anything outside of 5m without a bow.

Reykice

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

The things you're missing here is..

Range...stam are crap at range.

Shields...all magika players have access to easy defense...when a magika players runs out of stam..spam shields to survive that little bit longer...stam player dead with no stam.

Magika NB has permacloak..again in solo PvE it's god mode. Even use it vma and for instance the spiders on round 6 just say "stun" whilst you get to a pillar and nothing resets...also has the famous. .proxy on...cloak...concealed weapon..Soul tether. .goodbye combo.

Sorcs have streak, a massive shield..super powered knock down frags, overload which make epic for ambushing in pvp. Due to lag you'll get the two hits needed to kill someone if you get them behind they'll never see it.

Templars have thier own house..huge heals...jap2dps+heal...plus the lest we forget..oh look you're at 30%.health..goodbye (Tel Var noise in the background)

Stamina players have no real choice but to stand and slug it out..vigor only does so much, rally is a crap heal..blood craze is laughable so it's perfectly reasonable to have higher power.

It was only what February that this forum was crying out nerf sorc...nerf magblade, knock down the templar house....now apparantly magika builds are dead....

Plus stam is boring. Doesn't matter what class you pick. What race you use its all the same...dull.

I will just point you to this STAMINA DK soloing Veteran City of Ash:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=hxRTH2QMbSQ

Now you tell me more about that poor stamina survivability that is oh so much worse vs magicka.

He is tanking Skoria in his enrage phase after he took out all the platforms... while killing him. I`d say that is a decent amount of survivability... and that Vigor is not so bad as you make it out to be.

Ok now you do it..

I couldn't do it. My stam dk done vma without rally. Corrosive is epic but short lived. So what? Skoria is one boss...that video is by one beast of a player 99.99% of stam DKs couldn't do that. Skoria is a very slow hitting boss too. Attacks are easy to see and dodge for the awesome players.

Put a DK against the overfiend and see what happens. It'd eat a DK in a solo battle.

Sorcs can solo Kena, Stam DKs simply cannot (can't kill atros quick enough whilst surviving) need ward and overload.

It's situational. It's hardly a case maker for calling stam DKs OP. Plus a DK can't hit anything outside of 5m without a bow.

Yea but if he can survive a 4man vet dungeon and solo every boss... you can`t complain about "not enough survivability". Might not be the absolute best ever, but keep in mind its enough to solo 4man vet dungeons. More than enough for any solo content.

All that with more mobility and dps and mitigation compared to magicka. In group content shields are not relevant, nobody used a shield while dps`ing. Mitigation however keeps you from getting 1shotted, without enough hp and mitigation you must lose dps and get more hp...

Plus, it has always been like that: lower mitigation, more damage. It makes no sense for the builds with more mitigation, sustain, more dodge and mobility to also have more dps. Can`t have it all!

Arthmoor

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

Clearly I'm missing something due to not being so heavily into highly optimized builds and such, but just how does one come about doing 50K dps? Or 35K for that matter with magicka.

Foxic

Arthmoor wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

Clearly I'm missing something due to not being so heavily into highly optimized builds and such, but just how does one come about doing 50K dps? Or 35K for that matter with magicka.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K9G3G3txKQs

DHale

If you run a magic build in pvp or pve other than a healer you are crrrrraaaaazzzzzzyyyyyyyyy. Just saying!

Uriel_Nocturne

I only have Magicka builds.

Stamina builds aren't really my thing, and those builds aren't what I like to play. I like the thought of my Elves being creatures of Magick in a world steeped in Magick. So, my two Main characters are a Magicka Sorcerer and a Magicka Templar.

The disparity in DPS between Magicka DPS and Stamina DPS just leaves me feeling a bit... Meh. I'll still keep powering on with both of my current builds, but just the fact that it seems like I'm being pigeon-holed into playing a Stamina character (and pigeon-holed by the games own Devs nonetheless...) really doesn't give me much motivation to log in each night.

And then I take into account that once the Shadows of the Hist DLC and base patch hit for the Xbox, it will further exacerbate the disparity between Magicka and Stamina DPS.

I usually run nothing but PvE Solo, but the mobs of AI enemies aren't too much of a challenge, so my builds hold up in that regard. But every so often I get that urge to run through a Dungeon or Trial. But since I have nothing but Magicka builds, I get passed over and/or told that I must switch to Stamina in order to be able to hang steady with every one else.

It just seems... i don't know. It's like the Devs don't want me to play a build that I want to play. It's like they're telling me; "Play Stamina or we'll make your character build suck. Your choice."

It's just really discouraging to have this much of a disparity between build types...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

I pull about 5K more on stam, but at a cost. I must be at much closer range, I am far squishier, and I give no utility to my group. The rotation is much tougher and way less forgiving. Stam should pull more DPS with these sacrifices.

This rationale is highly questionable.

"I'm squishier!" No you are not. Your medium armor provides you with more innate physical and spell resistance than my light armor. You have access to an excellent AoE heal that is not tied to a weapon. You have a resource to draw upon for defensive purposes. I get it, you're not a tank but neither am I so stop pretending that you are in greater danger of dying.

"I must be at much closer range!" That's zero problem in ESO. With a game with such easy access to gap closers, the whole range-melee distinction is almost meaningless except on castle walls in cyrdoiil. For all the insistence on being "disadvantaged" by having to be up close, these builds immediately, repeatedly, and upon command get up close (and stay there) with gap closer (which themselves are excellent abilities). The pure melee style of play is effective and pervasive, many players don't even bother slotting any range capabilities.

"I give no utility to my group!" Yes you do and more so than my magicka build. You have the option to slot a selfish heal (which you can always slot without compromising your builds) that actually heals me and the rest of the group. I'm not even going to bother slotting the terrible restoration staff. Raid needs rapids? Sorry, I won't be doing that. Circle of Protection? Nope, look to the stamina guy who does 5K more DPS than me. As as a magicka DK, what utility am I providing? 10% extra fire damage to the group who is using primarily physical damage? Overlapping major brutality from Igneous weapons? Chains? I'm sure magicka templsrs, NBs, and sorcs are just thrilled their DPS pulls are thousands less just so a DK can chain stuff.

How exactly is a stam rotation tougher? Because you have to be close? DK whips and templar jabs require the dame range and exposed to the same dangers. All rotations require correct time, proper animation cancelling, and a stationary target.

These are just selective justifications why X build should be superior to Y build.

@Joy_Division , I normally agree with pretty much everything you write, but I am going to disagree here for the most part.

Perhaps squishier is the wrong word, but they are certainly much more vulnerable. Almost any boss has basic AoE around them. On a Flurry build, you are standing right in it, and you must work to constantly avoid it. On a whip build. you generally are not. On a ForcePulse or Funnel build, you might as well be in another zip code. I do very little movement on a Magic DK. The range of whip is actually quite long. It might be only a meter longer than Rapid Strikes on the tool tip, but its longer in reality. If you stand at the edge of whip range and cast your whip, it hits the boss every time. If you do the with rapid strikes, any little movement will cause your last hit to miss, which completely nullifies the skill and is a huge DPS loss. While I am technically a melee build on a Magic DK, other than embers and trap, I can apply all of my skills from a comfortable distance and not worry about what the boss is doing. This is not the case on a stam build. You are one miss-step from death at all times.

If you would like to compare Harness Magic to Vigor (the basic defense of each resource pool), they are night and day. Yes vigor can be cast on a group, but other than dead healers on the poison phase of serpent, or perhaps during Ozaras pins, when is this needed. Also, in both those scenarios, I dont need the vigor as a magic character if I cast a shield. Stam DPS dont spend their time spamming Vigor, and that is their main Utility. Harness magic is bordeline broken if you ask me. Any magic player gets a huge damage shield that will save you from anything save a true one shot. Vigor does not do this. Magic is far more survivable than stamina in a Raid/group setting.

The only other utility they have is to run a support set to boost other stam DPS like Sunderflame (CP140), Alkosh (should be worn by off tank), or Night mothers (good set but DPS loss to the user), but this always come as a personal DPS loss.

Next you mention a gap closer. I am sorry, but nobody runs this in Raid. It's meaningless to the discussion. If you want to talk about true ranged DPS, Magic >>> Stam. Magic Sorcs and NBs can literally DPS from across the room and pull very good numbers. Try that on a bow and see what happens. You probably wont be invited back to the group...

As for magic utility, many classes are starting to run 5 Infallable Aether. That is some of the best utility in the game. 8% damage to everything you touch is insane, and you get free AoE that might be BIS. Sorcs give crit, templars give spell damage, stamina, and can rez you in an instant. Siphon blades can provide insane off heals passively while they DPS. Sorcs and NBs also have the benefit of not being in the thick of it, so they die way less.

As as a magicka DK, what utility am I providing? DKs might be the best of all. Chains and AoE Interrupt are virtually required in VMOL. There should probably be an achievement for clearing VMOL without a magic DK. Not sure if it has been done or not, we certainly havent even tried. Magic DKs are the king of utility in the current Meta.

As for the rotation, yes stamina is tougher. It's a light attack weave with a fair amount of bar swapping, and you never cast the same skill twice in a row. Rapid, skill, rapid, skill, rapid, skill, etc., all with light weaves in between. A magic DK or NB or whatever is much simpler. Weave a few buffs/Dots, Spam skill x 5 or 6. and repeat. I do twice as much bar swapping on a stam DK vs a magic DK. I do love playing stam, but I am pretty sure it is causing carpal tunnel.

Look, I agree that stam is really powerful right now, but I believe it comes at a price. As someone that primarily plays magic DK, sure, I would like a small buff. I took issue with this post because it is overstating the power gap between the two classes. Very few people are are actually posting 50k on real fights. And those that are, are the best in the world. It's not realistic to say, I can pull 35k on my NB/Sorc and then compare it to Alcast posting 50k on a stam DK. If you want to compare, you need to compare the best to the best. Is there a DPS gap, yep, but its not 15k, and it comes at a price.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

DHale wrote: »

If you run a magic build in pvp or pve other than a healer you are crrrrraaaaazzzzzzyyyyyyyyy. Just saying!

Go through VMOL without some magic DPS and see what happens. Also, here is my "non-support" magic DK.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138752410@N07/28220427641/

I was responsible for chaining ads and interrupting their channel, both come at a big DPS loss. Try chaining 4 adds or spamming deep breath on a stam DK and see what happens. Anybody that has done this fight knows how much movement and downtime there can be even if you sole job is to just DPS. Also, I am far from what most players would call elite. I have seen good magic sorcs pull 40K on this fight.

Stam DKs are great on pure single target stack and whacks, maybe too great, but that is not the DPS that matters in this game.