ZOS are you trying to remove magicka builds or did you make a mistake?

Reykice · August 2016

Right now stamina builds are doing 50k+ dps in trials with magicka at about 35k. The imbalance is so big i expected somebody to notice and redo things but i see no mention of this from you.

There is also the sustain issue, stamina has redguards, has 20% cost reduction on EVERY weapon while magicka has none of that so most magicka builds can`t sustain.

Is this intended? In most games people rage at a 10% difference in max dps, i get that you can`t make it perfectly equal but its beyond senseless right now. Stamina builds have more armor, more mobility, more sustain, more dps. What is the design logic behind this?

The CP tree also favors stamina as Thaumaturge increases dot damage and basically most of the max stamina dps build is made of dots. Rapid Strikes, Rearming Trap, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, Dawnbreaker. All are buffed by the Vet Maelstrom Weapons too adding 3k Weapon Damage.

Magicka has none of that, their main spells, Funnel Health, Force Pulse, Crystal Frag, Whip get no bonus from Thaumaturge and no way to buff them via other means like Vet Maelstrom Weapons.

On top of that you made Rapid Strikes 0.6 seconds from 1.1 seconds channel its now the new super duper stamina filler. Why not change Force Pulse too or destro staff? Dual Wield has passives like "more damage under 20%, more weapon damage, 20% cost reduction and a pick between 10% crit, a very nice dot, 5% damage or armor penetration as a last passive".

Destro Staff has much weaker passives and Destro abilities with the exception of wall of elements(that was recently buffed) are also much weaker.

So i have to ask, was it a mistake that you will fix or are you slowly just keeping magicka for healing and you only want stamina to handle damage?

As a possible solution: revamp destro, make it good again, every magicka build uses it so it will bump everyone in damage. Either make Thaumaturge no longer affect every possible skill in some builds especially channels or just add a new Star that buffs "non dot" damage abilities so both will have 2 stars buffing the damage not like now where one has 1 star and the other 2.

Fix sustain somehow, add destro passive with 20% cost reduction for a start or just tweak the more costly spells.

If you agree please keep bumping this thread until we get some kind of answer!

Unsent.Soul · August 2016

Doubt you will see any answer, not one that you're looking for, at least.

Averya_Teira · August 2016

The short answer is:

The devs working on classes and general balance have no clue what they are doing.

At least you can't stamina heal PvE content.... Magicka still has that... Lol.

Reykice · August 2016

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

Doubt you will see any answer, not one that you're looking for, at least.

They must use logic so there must be a logical reason for this... or they made a mistake and it can be fixed.

But something must be done its getting ridiculous. What i expect is an answer as to why or how this came to be, or better yet a "yes we know we are doing some minor changes next patch".

Don`t think they can ignore it like half the players use magicka builds i doubt they like seeing stamina 50% better by design.

MisterBigglesworth · August 2016

When I read the words
"design" and "logic"
together in a sentence about ESO:

Smasherx74 · August 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

The short answer is:

The devs working on classes and general balance have no clue what they are doing.

At least you can't stamina heal PvE content.... Magicka still has that... Lol.

The balance is good now, stamplars just need a few more buffs.

Reverb · August 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

The short answer is:

The devs working on classes and general balance have no clue what they are doing.

At least you can't stamina heal PvE content.... Magicka still has that... Lol.

Someone here said something a long time ago about zeni's approach to class and weapon balance, and it stuck with me. It's like they're looking at 2 sticks, in this case - magicka and stam choices. And they see that the Mag stick is much longer. So they snap it in half, and put an extender on the Stam stick. And when the stam stick is much longer than the mag stick, they pat themselves on the back for bringing things into balance.

Rather than small tweaks, they seem to favor sweeping changes that nerf one direction and buff the other at the same time, just creating new imbalances.

Averya_Teira · August 2016

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Averya_Teira wrote: »

The short answer is:

The devs working on classes and general balance have no clue what they are doing.

At least you can't stamina heal PvE content.... Magicka still has that... Lol.

The balance is good now, stamplars just need a few more buffs.

Lol. Balance is FAR from good in ESO. It's one of the most unbalanced game I've seen.

Then again, elder scrolls Games have never been balanced, but they were solo RPGs.

Minalan · August 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

The short answer is:

The devs working on classes and general balance have no clue what they are doing.

It means the design team is terrible at their jobs, and worst of all they just don't care.

At this point the combat designers need to be fired. The imbalance isn't just a little bit. Stam abilities cost very little, the sets are better, Stam classes take less damage, heal better, they're more mobile, and the weapon damage on their builds is higher by a huge margin.

Meanwhile the stream-tards are telling everyone how 'balanced' everything is - While yelling 'macro kill' every time they see a sorc. Sure it's funny, because it usually happens. But is that good for the game?

Snowstrider · August 2016

Remember pc launch? I Remember.
Everyone was running around with robes and staves and stamina builds wasnt even a thing. Most abilities didnt even have a stamina morph like today but yeah i love stamina builds but wish they were more balanced

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2016

Please enough about "stamina is so OP" threads already. Magicka isn't weak it's just no longer easy mode wanna play it learn it.

It's the player who makes the character not the other way around.

Reverb · August 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Please enough about "stamina is so OP" threads already. Magicka isn't weak it's just no longer easy mode wanna play it learn it.

It's the player who makes the character not the other way around.

Vid of you pulling 50k sustained single target dps on a 2.5.5 mage build plox.

Unsent.Soul · August 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Please enough about "stamina is so OP" threads already. Magicka isn't weak it's just no longer easy mode wanna play it learn it.

It's the player who makes the character not the other way around.

Words of wisdom here!

/sarcasm

Rayya_Blackheart · August 2016

Averya_Teira wrote: »

The short answer is:

The devs working on classes and general balance have no clue what they are doing.

At least you can't stamina heal PvE content.... Magicka still has that... Lol.

Not fully heal, no. However, in trials (especially the Ozara fight) vigor has helped keep up a group.

Reykice · August 2016

Reverb wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Please enough about "stamina is so OP" threads already. Magicka isn't weak it's just no longer easy mode wanna play it learn it.

It's the player who makes the character not the other way around.

Vid of you pulling 50k sustained single target dps on a 2.5.5 mage build plox.

Stamina sorc: https://youtu.be/qIF5eKVgVM8 - 49k

Stam DK: https://youtu.be/K9G3G3txKQs - 51k

I could not find any magicka. Just in case people don`t believe stam can do it while magicka can`t.

(i know it was not what you asked)

Draxys · August 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Please enough about "stamina is so OP" threads already. Magicka isn't weak it's just no longer easy mode wanna play it learn it.

It's the player who makes the character not the other way around.

And here we see a classic version of "spiteful assertion of my own opinion as if it is fact". You seem to do that a lot.

Rayya_Blackheart · August 2016

I thought the differences in DPS was because people were blowing other people up in PvP from an obscene distance. That bows and staves were lowered all together. I could be wrong though.

OrphanHelgen · August 2016

Magicka have been top dps for 2 years, while stamina have been for a few months.

For magicka sustain, you can go 7 light armor instead of meta 5-1-1, and you can have both elemental drain and siphon its called? those stack with eachother. Wormcult is also very common for healers to have.

Have you tried necropotence combined with master inferno cp160, which also works with nightblade clones.

Have you tried sorc with 5 elegant?

Have you tried the new sun set on dk?

Your welcome

Minalan · August 2016

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Magicka have been top dps for 2 years, while stamina have been for a few months.

For magicka sustain, you can go 7 light armor instead of meta 5-1-1, and you can have both elemental drain and siphon its called? those stack with eachother. Wormcult is also very common for healers to have.

Have you tried necropotence combined with master inferno cp160, which also works with nightblade clones.

Have you tried sorc with 5 elegant?

Have you tried the new sun set on dk?

Your welcome

1. That's no excuse for what they did, and it wouldn't take much to even things out. Just a tiny bit of love, sorting out what's wrong with magicka DK's and sorcs.

2. 7 light armor hands you... 6% cost reduction and 8% regen in exchange for 6% all stats and more armor (with 5/1/1). You're right, technically you get slightly better sustain, but I'll take the 6% bigger pool.

3. Elegance is good if you mix it with Kena and an Overload build. But I don't want to be THAT guy. Everyone hates THAT guy.

Banana · August 2016

Thats why we got a race change. So we can go the stamina way. I did. Yes I did notice a difference.

Reykice · August 2016

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Magicka have been top dps for 2 years, while stamina have been for a few months.

For magicka sustain, you can go 7 light armor instead of meta 5-1-1, and you can have both elemental drain and siphon its called? those stack with eachother. Wormcult is also very common for healers to have.

Have you tried necropotence combined with master inferno cp160, which also works with nightblade clones.

Have you tried sorc with 5 elegant?

Have you tried the new sun set on dk?

Your welcome

Funny but you basically make my point because all you say is get more sustain because you know we need it. Yet stamina doesn`t. Mostly due to redguard, lower stamina costs and the 20% reduction in the weapon tree. None of that can be done by magicka. Also, when they go 7/7 they get more damage, we lose a lot of armor, we get lower damage due to lower magicka polls while gaining a tiny bit more sustain. Sustain that will be negated by the lower armor that in turn will make us sacrifice more stats to get enough hp to survive 1shots in pve.

As for elemental drain and siphon, sure you can but that is a healer build not a dps build. It would make sense if stamina also had to do it but when its just magicka with lower sustain, dps, survivability, mobility... you must wonder where did they go wrong during design?

Usually the glass cannons at least get the cannon, at this point i expect to see "no magicka dps" calls soon as the difference is so big right now you will absolutely be better off with a stamina dps.

SleepyTroll · August 2016

They all ways go so crazy with balancing, every update is complete changes to the meta. They should really do small tweaks every week. Wrobel even said they didn't really do any balancing this update because they wanted to keep the current meta.

Dusho_Edin · August 2016

While i do agree that magicka dps has had an advantage for a large part of the game, the gap between Stamina and Magicka Dps has never been this large. Take for example a NB: My nb i can pull 35-40k DPS on mantikora, whereas a stamina NB is hitting for 45-50k DPS.

IMHO it is not due to resources or cost of skills but rather it is due to the fact that the Malestrom 1 handed weapons add ~10k dps to a stamina build, that same NB that hits for 45k dps with malestorm would pull ~38k without them, if it was not for those weapons i think we could all agree that stamina and magicka classes would be ~2-3k dps different.

So it is not Stamina DPS that needs tuning but rather either BUFF the Malestorm Staves to be on par with The 1 handed (not likely) or nerf the 1 handed malestorm axes and daggers. By tuning down the Malestorm Axe and Daggers to some degree we can finally achieve Class balance. (OR as close to it as it can get.)

PS. i expect several hateful responses to this. All i can say in advance is go test it for yourself if you dont believe me. Go do whatever dps test you want to Bloodspawn The adjudicator, whatever, then do that same test again with out the malestorm weps, i am willing to bet anything you see a 5-10k dps differnce. There is a reason every stamina build incorparates Malestorm weps into their build. In fact i will wager 50k gold that without malestorm weps the Stamina magicka gap would not be as huge maybe 2-3k dps difference.

Reykice · August 2016

Dusho_Edin wrote: »

While i do agree that magicka dps has had an advantage for a large part of the game, the gap between Stamina and Magicka Dps has never been this large. Take for example a NB: My nb i can pull 35-40k DPS on mantikora, whereas a stamina NB is hitting for 45-50k DPS.

IMHO it is not due to resources or cost of skills but rather it is due to the fact that the Malestrom 1 handed weapons add ~10k dps to a stamina build, that same NB that hits for 45k dps with malestorm would pull ~38k without them, if it was not for those weapons i think we could all agree that stamina and magicka classes would be ~2-3k dps different.

So it is not Stamina DPS that needs tuning but rather either BUFF the Malestorm Staves to be on par with The 1 handed (not likely) or nerf the 1 handed malestorm axes and daggers. By tuning down the Malestorm Axe and Daggers to some degree we can finally achieve Class balance. (OR as close to it as it can get.)

PS. i expect several hateful responses to this. All i can say in advance is go test it for yourself if you dont believe me. Go do whatever dps test you want to Bloodspawn The adjudicator, whatever, then do that same test again with out the malestorm weps, i am willing to bet anything you see a 5-10k dps differnce. There is a reason every stamina build incorparates Malestorm weps into their build. In fact i will wager 50k gold that without malestorm weps the Stamina magicka gap would not be as huge maybe 2-3k dps difference.

You are right about the maelstrom weapons adding a lot of dps but it doesn`t change the fact... you do a lot less vs a stamina build. As for resources, that is another fight... because its stupid to have such a high cost for magicka and so low for stamina when they have the redguard master race AND 20% cost reduction in every weapon tree.

The argument i`m making is that stamina with all the bells and whistles is way better than magicka. How they fix it is their call but i`d like a fix and i don`t think i`m the only one.

e1team · August 2016

You can argue all you want about who's OP up until you drop all your gear down to your underpants and try raw damage. If both can pull the same DPS then the balancing issue is with the gear. Which is not an issue in my opinion.

Humatiel · August 2016

e1team wrote: »

You can argue all you want about who's OP up until you drop all your gear down to your underpants and try raw damage. If both can pull the same DPS then the balancing issue is with the gear. Which is not an issue in my opinion.

I'll pay you 1k gold for every second of a video showing me a magicka class pulling 45k dps in a single target fight. Hell I'll praise your name to the heavens if you can find a video showing a magicka class pulling 50k+. Until then better to be silent then act on information you clearly don't have.

Carbonised · August 2016

Everything is stamina these days. Tons of stamina sets from trials and dungeons, even stamina craftable sets. Tons of variation for stamina, and not to mention a huge difference in DPS.

In the mean time I'm sitting here on my MagDK in perfect gear, doing a measly 30-32 DPS while stamDKs and pretty much all decent stam builds pull 40-50k

Could we for crying out loud start adding some better mag-sets to the game, so we also can stack a million spell damage, like you can weapon damage? Sets that do thousands of magic damage and flame damage, like you already have tons of sets doing thousands of poison damage?

And what about the horrible CP system that favours stam entirely. Just look at the passives, everything is stam related, and the passives of the mage constellation is entirely BS. Nothing I even want to aim for in there, once you've gotten the early ones. And to even be a decent magDK I have to put tons of points in Thaumaturge and get nothing out of the passives there either.

And don't even get me started on pvp, where magDK is no longer a thing.

This 'balance' needs to change and it needs to change fast. Every patch is more stam power, and we who play mag builds are fed up with it.

Funkopotamus · August 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Please enough about "stamina is so OP" threads already. Magicka isn't weak it's just no longer easy mode wanna play it learn it.

It's the player who makes the character not the other way around.

LMAO!

Yeahhhhhh... RRRrriiiighhht..

Stambads are easier than mag/anything has EVER been in ESO..

Even the good ole days of power sorcs does not hold a candle to the EASYCHEESY stambads of today..

Not even close actually.

And yes I have played them all.

Nothing about ESO is hard. At least we used to be able to call it a "BabiesFirstMMO" But now... Now with the easypeezy stam OPness it is now more of a FPS! LOL

I blame all of this on ESO/ZOS trying to let EVERY class fill EVERY role... It looks great on paper and makes for great sales hype... But as we are all learning it just does NOT work.... I doubt it ever can work... and be balanced at least..

EDIT: I personally have come to the conclusion that somewhere in the past.. In some past MMO @Worble was traumatized in PVP by a mage character. I do not know if he was killed and teabagged repeatedly or what, but as long as that -leprechaun- has any say so the mage class is D00MED!

D-0-0-M-E-D! I SAY D00000oooomedd!

Funkopotamus · August 2016

Reykice wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Magicka have been top dps for 2 years, while stamina have been for a few months.

For magicka sustain, you can go 7 light armor instead of meta 5-1-1, and you can have both elemental drain and siphon its called? those stack with eachother. Wormcult is also very common for healers to have.

Have you tried necropotence combined with master inferno cp160, which also works with nightblade clones.

Have you tried sorc with 5 elegant?

Have you tried the new sun set on dk?

Your welcome

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Magicka have been top dps for 2 years, while stamina have been for a few months.

For magicka sustain, you can go 7 light armor instead of meta 5-1-1, and you can have both elemental drain and siphon its called? those stack with eachother. Wormcult is also very common for healers to have.

Have you tried necropotence combined with master inferno cp160, which also works with nightblade clones.

Have you tried sorc with 5 elegant?

Have you tried the new sun set on dk?

Your welcome

Usually the glass cannons at least get the cannon,

GAWD! I luv you lol..

I needed that laugh right now and you delivered in spades

I could be more forgiving if ZOS would at least try to make each class excel at ONE thing. I am okay with this whole "Every class can do every role" Shenanigans if only every class would excel at only one.

Sorcs king of AOE
NB's Single target DPS
Templars healing
DK trolling everyone in PvP "wait they already have that on lock["/i]... So I guess we will give them tank!

Flameheart · August 2016

I have to agree to the TO.

I have no issues with builds doing somewhat more dps than others if they take more risk (melee) to deliver their dps and have less possibilities for self protection, but more than 10-15k dps difference is not "somewhat".

I did the Shadowplay achievement yesterday and had a look at SO and Archives vet after patch. If you want to min/max raid setups you wont find any magicka DD there. Dps makes a difference there as in almost every content in this game anyways.

Vaoh · August 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Please enough about "stamina is so OP" threads already. Magicka isn't weak it's just no longer easy mode wanna play it learn it.

It's the player who makes the character not the other way around.

Always coming to such an extreme defense for Stamina, while simultaneously having a severely unhealthy hatred toward Magicka. Typical of you.

So everyone knows, @Forestd16b14_ESO writes comments like this all the time. Stamina is gimped and skillful no matter what, while Magicka is super OP easy mode no matter what. That is what he believes.

Some of the worst logic you can imagine. The bias is strong in this one