Surprise Attack stuns with Radiant Magelight active

josh.lackey_ESO · December 2015

I run Radiant Magelight 100% of the time. I have noticed that I am now getting stunned by Surprise Attack. I don't know exactly how long this has been happening, but I have only recently noticed it. Granted, it's something of a welcome reprieve from Wrecking Blow spam, but my understanding is that Radiant Magelight is supposed to specifically counter the stun from Veiled Strike/Surprise Attack/Concealed Weapon. Can anyone else confirm this is happening to them, and that it's a bug?

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 · December 2015

Ambush isn't always a stealth attack

So, if someone initiates Ambush while not in stealth, you should be stunned

lolo_01b16_ESO · December 2015

Magelight prevents the stun from stealth attacks. However SA also stuns when invisable, so it will still happen with magelight up.

ostrapz · December 2015

I believe this is correct, as a nb ive stunned someone with me suprise attack before, wasnt sure if they morphed it or not but they were vet 16 so i assumed it was. We were duelling and it worked multiple times. It may actually be intended but who knows

josh.lackey_ESO · December 2015

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Ambush isn't always a stealth attack

So, if someone initiates Ambush while not in stealth, you should be stunned

I am not talking about Ambush, I am talking about Veiled Strike and its morphs.

Besides that, Ambush specifically states it only immobilizes players rather than stunning them.

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Magelight prevents the stun from stealth attacks. However SA also stuns when invisable, so it will still happen with magelight up.

Radiant Magelight reveals anyone -- whether they are merely hidden/stealthed/crouched or invisible. The tooltip actually says this:

"This mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 56% for you and nearby allies."

You are actually popped out of stealth and invisibility by radiant magelight -- not just for the person running magelight, but for everyone. In 9 months of playing almost 100% with radiant magelight active, I have only been getting stunned by Surprise Attack or Concealed Weapon in the past couple weeks.

Reading the tooltip for radiant, it would seem to indicate that I should not be getting stunned by attacks like SA (and one could argue it means that no one near me should either, but that's not my point.) In this context "stealthed" would seem to mean hidden or invisible. In some other context, it might mean something else. The in-game help refers to crouching as "sneaking". The reticle text says hidden for both crouch and invisibility without distinguishing between the two (which is super confusing! If you are interested, the sidWarTools addon gives you color indicators to distinguish the two, btw)

If you look at the tooltip for Veiled Strike, it uses the terms "stealthed" and "invisible" -- this is distinct from the radiant tooltip that uses the terms "hidden", "invisible", and "stealthed". The only way the radiant tooltip makes sense is if "stealthed" means "hidden or invisible". Because radiant doesn't say "reveals stealthed or invisible enemies"; if it did, then it would make sense that a veiled strike from invisibility could still stun you. Except I don't think it used to work that way, and if that's intentional, it's pretty freaking useless.

Master_Kas · December 2015

You don't get stunned by stealth attacks (for example being crouched and using snipe/heroic slash/whatever melee ability.

But veiled strike and morphs got it's own CC built in, which is not affected by radiant magelight.

Radiant magelight only stops the stun from stealth attacks but not veiled strike because you don't need full crouch to stun with veiled/SA/Concealed. Just cloak, bats or invispots.

Working as intended probably.

Xeniph · December 2015

Yup as Kas explained this is working as intended.

Radiant magelight only stops stealthed attack stuns. But stunning with Consealed/Surprise from invisibility will always stun unless you have immunity up.

This is because ESO has two separate states involving hidden players.. -Stealthed- and -Invisible-

Any class can stealth, but only Vamps in Clouding Swarm and NB's can go Invisible (Via Cloak)

Hope that helps clear things up.

josh.lackey_ESO · December 2015

Is there some ability other than Veiled Strike that only stuns when used from stealth? I can't find any other skill that works that
way. Normal attacks don't stun just because they're from stealth.

And you are saying "stealthed" does not include invisible, but there is no reason to assume that. The Radiant Magelight tooltip refers to being crouched as "hidden" -- giving some other meaning to "stealthed". The reticle text calls invisibility and crouching "hidden". Different words seem to mean different things in different contexts.

Basically, if I have up radiant magelight, I should not be getting stunned from Veiled Strike under any circumstances. It doesn't really make any sense, because the player using it on me is not hidden, stealthed, or invisible because the magelight reveals them if they are in range to hit me.

I have never seen Radiant Magelight reveal someone using Clouding Swarm. I guess this is because Radiant actually pops you out of stealth/invisibility, and Clouding Swarm specifically says it re-grants invisibility if it's broken. So that's one more reason why a person running Radiant should never get stunned from Veiled Strike (well, unless the person pops Clouding Swarm.)

p.s. Any class can go invisible using an invisibility potion.

Xeniph · December 2015

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Is there some ability other than Veiled Strike that only stuns when used from stealth? I can't find any other skill that works that
way. Normal attacks don't stun just because they're from stealth.

And you are saying "stealthed" does not include invisible, but there is no reason to assume that. The Radiant Magelight tooltip refers to being crouched as "hidden" -- giving some other meaning to "stealthed". The reticle text calls invisibility and crouching "hidden". Different words seem to mean different things in different contexts.

Basically, if I have up radiant magelight, I should not be getting stunned from Veiled Strike under any circumstances. It doesn't really make any sense, because the player using it on me is not hidden, stealthed, or invisible because the magelight reveals them if they are in range to hit me.

I have never seen Radiant Magelight reveal someone using Clouding Swarm. I guess this is because Radiant actually pops you out of stealth/invisibility, and Clouding Swarm specifically says it re-grants invisibility if it's broken. So that's one more reason why a person running Radiant should never get stunned from Veiled Strike (well, unless the person pops Clouding Swarm.)

p.s. Any class can go invisible using an invisibility potion.

What I am saying is, to understand the tooltip of Radiant magelight, fist you must understand the difference between "Stealth" and "invisibility", no assumptions needed. The states are clearly defined in Magelight's tooltip.

Radiant Magelight:

The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks and reduces damage from stealth attacks by % for you and nearby allies.

With ESO you have always had to dissect tooltips and look for the nuances of language since they are vague as hell. The important distinction in this instance is the use and differences between "Stealth" "Invisible" and "Hidden".

Stealth= Anyone crouching
Invisible= Clouding Swarm, Cloak and potions
Hidden= All the above.

You are correct concernine Clouding Swarm. As it re-grants invisibility, Magelight will not show them, however a Mark target now does (Changed in 1.6)

Now revealing a hidden player does not remove them from either state, for that either you or they must take an action that would normally do so. So revealing them is just that, you can see them, but they are still "stealthed" or "invisible". In this regard, the revealing portion of Magelight functions like a potion or Mark Target.

As for stuns from "stealthed" attacks, every stamina ability that does damage is instant and doesn't reveal until it hits is capable of receiving the "sneak attack" modifier, and in turn on a successful sneak attack will stun the target, regardless if the ability has a stun built into it or not. This stun, and the subsequent damage are what Magelight negates and reduces.

Hope that helps.

josh.lackey_ESO · December 2015

Xeniph wrote: »

What I am saying is, to understand the tooltip of Radiant magelight, fist you must understand the difference between "Stealth" and "invisibility", no assumptions needed. The states are clearly defined in Magelight's tooltip.

Radiant Magelight:

The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks and reduces damage from stealth attacks by % for you and nearby allies.

With ESO you have always had to dissect tooltips and look for the nuances of language since they are vague as hell. The important distinction in this instance is the use and differences between "Stealth" "Invisible" and "Hidden".

Stealth= Anyone crouching
Invisible= Clouding Swarm, Cloak and potions
Hidden= All the above.

This interpretation does not follow from the tooltip, though. The first clause says "hidden or invisible", implying they are distinct states. If hidden means "stealthed or invisible", it is redundant to specifically add "or invisible" -- the first clause should read "stealthed or invisible" if your definitions are correct. If it did, the meaning would be crystal clear.

But without reading any other game tooltips or making other inferences, I would assume that the second clause follows logically from the first, and that "stealthed" is a status that includes both of the aforementioned state of hidden and invisible, and so "hidden" in this context means crouched.

If you look at the tooltip for Veiled Strike, it refers to "invisible" and "stealthed" as separate states. If "hidden" is to mean both, why not just say "hidden" there? No matter how you try to deduce meaning, there is a contradiction between the Veiled Strike tooltip and the Radiant Magelight tooltip.

There is also Revealing Flare. It says that it exposes stealthed enemies and prevents stealth for 5 seconds. Does this work on invisible enemies, or does it only work on crouched enemies? I don't use it often enough to be able to say.

The reason I bring this up is because in 9 months of playing with Radiant Magelight on all of my toons (including my magicka nightblade), I only have noticed being stunned from Veiled Strike recently. I could have just derped out for that whole time and never noticed it happening, but I have fought a lot of nightblades. I also know they made some changes to Cloak mechanics with Orisnium. I'm wondering if they didn't break Magelight stun immunity when they did that. I haven't tested the damage reduction part of it -- I'll try to get a friend to help me test that and report back.

The being said, the premise of Veiled Strike that it stuns you when you are hit by someone whom you cannot see. As Radiant Magelight allows you to see everyone, I don't reckon you should be stunned by Veiled Strike either way. I also can't imagine trying to rely on crouch to get up near anyone in melee range. I only ever even try do that when I pop Cloak. If that function of Radiant Magelight exists only to prevent stuns from crouched nightblades who haven't popped Cloak hitting you with Veiled Strike, it might as well not even exist!

Derra · December 2015

Finally someone discovered why rml is totally not worth a slot and posted it on the forums

only took 8? months since they last changed it?

josh.lackey_ESO · December 2015

Okay, I did some testing. I found out that L+R bash, light, and heavy attacks from crouch will stun for 4 seconds. It doesn't work with staffs, but it does work with bows. Seems unfair but okay.

Radiant Magelight prevents all those stuns from crouch.

The same attacks do not stun if you are merely invisible, but not crouched. So with no crouching, Dark Cloak + light attack will not stun someone.

Veiled Strike stuns when while crouched or invisible. Radiant Magelight does not provide immunity to either stun. So yeah, I would say it's just flat out broken.

I also tested Revealing Flare. It reveals both couched and invisible people. It also prevents both crouch and invisibility from being re-applied to the person hit with Revealing Flare for 5 seconds. You can Dark Cloak to purge the DoT, but you remain visible and targetable.

So for the purposes of Revealing Flare, "stealthed" means crouched or invisible. So I believe the same is true of Radiant Magelight. I think the Veiled Strike tooltip is the odd man out, adding a redundant "or invisible" after stealthed to be clear about how the mechanic is different from normal crouched attacks, which stun anyways.

If Radiant Magelight were only intended to prevent stuns from crouch, it should say hidden attacks rather than stealth attacks. Since normal attacks from invisibility don't stun, and only Veiled Strike does, I think the description does indicate it should prevent any stuns from Veiled Strike. I think it used to, but no longer does. And I think it's broken/bugged at the moment.

Xeniph · December 2015

All I can say is you are putting WAY too much thought into this. Radiant magelight has never prevented the stun from a crouched or cloaked Veil/Surprise.

The reason I know this is because, generally, I open fights against Radiant users with fear. Once that immunity wears off I immediately Cloak+ Surprise.

It has worked this way since release.

CP5 · December 2015

Love ZOS's logic. Skill lets you see targets in invisibility and stops people who are sneaking from stunning you? Well if someone is invisible they should stills stun then as well! Joking aside I noticed this on my NB a while back when doing some testing, guess the surprise in surprise attack isn't the stun from invisibility, but the stun working at all.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · December 2015

Surprise Attacks stun work independent from the normal stealth stun it will stun you but it will cut the damage by 56%

Derra · December 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise Attacks stun work independent from the normal stealth stun it will stun you but it will cut the damage by 56%

If it´s a stun out of invisibility and not sneak dmg won´t be affected at all. Stop trying to make people use this skill by giving them false hope some portion of it might actually work.

DeanTheCat · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise Attacks stun work independent from the normal stealth stun it will stun you but it will cut the damage by 56%

If it´s a stun out of invisibility and not sneak dmg won´t be affected at all. Stop trying to make people use this skill by giving them false hope some portion of it might actually work.

@Derra

You know that I have been using RML 24/7 for the past year right? RML is completely worth the two slots. As I have said to you before, RML is a melee based counter and to use it effectively(Which most people don't thankfully), you have to fight in melee range instead of nuking someone down from 36m.

Also, Veiled Strike has always stunned from Cloak against RML users. Been like that since beta because Invis =/= Stealth.

RML has always been powerful as heck. It just takes a bit of practice and adapting a playstyle round it.

Derra · December 2015

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise Attacks stun work independent from the normal stealth stun it will stun you but it will cut the damage by 56%

If it´s a stun out of invisibility and not sneak dmg won´t be affected at all. Stop trying to make people use this skill by giving them false hope some portion of it might actually work.

@Derra

You know that I have been using RML 24/7 for the past year right? RML is completely worth the two slots. As I have said to you before, RML is a melee based counter and to use it effectively(Which most people don't thankfully), you have to fight in melee range instead of nuking someone down from 36m.

Also, Veiled Strike has always stunned from Cloak against RML users. Been like that since beta because Invis =/= Stealth.

RML has always been powerful as heck. It just takes a bit of practice and adapting a playstyle round it.

It has to be used in combination with a gapcloser to work reliably against a magica NB with concealed (i know because i happen to play one occasionally). In that case you´re getting into the territory where it´s questionable if it´s truely radiant magelight or the currently completely op mechanic of gapclosers that´s making rml good. I´d say it´s atleast debateable and my gutfeeling when playing is gapclosers not allowing me to escape is worse than the actual mechanic of rml.

However my argument in this topic is about rml being used as a defensive tool - which your point does not adress at all (apart from not being an option for anyone who dares to pve with a magica build in the first place).
So i still stand by the statement: RML is a completely worthless ability (unless you happen to use it offensively on a melee build with a gapcloser where it´s still debateable if it´s worth giving up two slots to counter one ability of one class - because rml does not serve another purpose).

DeanTheCat · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise Attacks stun work independent from the normal stealth stun it will stun you but it will cut the damage by 56%

If it´s a stun out of invisibility and not sneak dmg won´t be affected at all. Stop trying to make people use this skill by giving them false hope some portion of it might actually work.

@Derra

You know that I have been using RML 24/7 for the past year right? RML is completely worth the two slots. As I have said to you before, RML is a melee based counter and to use it effectively(Which most people don't thankfully), you have to fight in melee range instead of nuking someone down from 36m.

Also, Veiled Strike has always stunned from Cloak against RML users. Been like that since beta because Invis =/= Stealth.

RML has always been powerful as heck. It just takes a bit of practice and adapting a playstyle round it.

It has to be used in combination with a gapcloser to work reliably against a magica NB with concealed (i know because i happen to play one occasionally). In that case you´re getting into the territory where it´s questionable if it´s truely radiant magelight or the currently completely op mechanic of gapclosers that´s making rml good. I´d say it´s atleast debateable and my gutfeeling when playing is gapclosers not allowing me to escape is worse than the actual mechanic of rml.

However my argument in this topic is about rml being used as a defensive tool - which your point does not adress at all (apart from not being an option for anyone who dares to pve with a magica build in the first place).
So i still stand by the statement: RML is a completely worthless ability (unless you happen to use it offensively on a melee build with a gapcloser where it´s still debateable if it´s worth giving up two slots to counter one ability of one class - because rml does not serve another purpose).

Eh, it's still useful against this:

Between Snipe and all the Xeloki clones out there, I'd say RML is still useful defensively

Off-Topic: What's the archer density of AD in archers per meter square? I'm guessing its round 7 Archers per Square Meter. It's gotten to the point where if I'm not sniped at least four times in a fight against AD, I will find it odd.

Derra · December 2015

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise Attacks stun work independent from the normal stealth stun it will stun you but it will cut the damage by 56%

If it´s a stun out of invisibility and not sneak dmg won´t be affected at all. Stop trying to make people use this skill by giving them false hope some portion of it might actually work.

@Derra

You know that I have been using RML 24/7 for the past year right? RML is completely worth the two slots. As I have said to you before, RML is a melee based counter and to use it effectively(Which most people don't thankfully), you have to fight in melee range instead of nuking someone down from 36m.

Also, Veiled Strike has always stunned from Cloak against RML users. Been like that since beta because Invis =/= Stealth.

RML has always been powerful as heck. It just takes a bit of practice and adapting a playstyle round it.

It has to be used in combination with a gapcloser to work reliably against a magica NB with concealed (i know because i happen to play one occasionally). In that case you´re getting into the territory where it´s questionable if it´s truely radiant magelight or the currently completely op mechanic of gapclosers that´s making rml good. I´d say it´s atleast debateable and my gutfeeling when playing is gapclosers not allowing me to escape is worse than the actual mechanic of rml.

However my argument in this topic is about rml being used as a defensive tool - which your point does not adress at all (apart from not being an option for anyone who dares to pve with a magica build in the first place).
So i still stand by the statement: RML is a completely worthless ability (unless you happen to use it offensively on a melee build with a gapcloser where it´s still debateable if it´s worth giving up two slots to counter one ability of one class - because rml does not serve another purpose).

Eh, it's still useful against this:

Between Snipe and all the Xeloki clones out there, I'd say RML is still useful defensively

Off-Topic: What's the archer density of AD in archers per meter square? I'm guessing its round 7 Archers per Square Meter. It's gotten to the point where if I'm not sniped at least four times in a fight against AD, I will find it odd.

Might be useful against the players who have no idea how to fight if their snipe fails (those won´t attack you when they see rml anyway). Against everyone else it´s merely two skills you won´t use against them which is a HUGE advantage for anyone familiar with the game.

DeanTheCat · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DeanTheCat wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Surprise Attacks stun work independent from the normal stealth stun it will stun you but it will cut the damage by 56%

If it´s a stun out of invisibility and not sneak dmg won´t be affected at all. Stop trying to make people use this skill by giving them false hope some portion of it might actually work.

@Derra

You know that I have been using RML 24/7 for the past year right? RML is completely worth the two slots. As I have said to you before, RML is a melee based counter and to use it effectively(Which most people don't thankfully), you have to fight in melee range instead of nuking someone down from 36m.

Also, Veiled Strike has always stunned from Cloak against RML users. Been like that since beta because Invis =/= Stealth.

RML has always been powerful as heck. It just takes a bit of practice and adapting a playstyle round it.

It has to be used in combination with a gapcloser to work reliably against a magica NB with concealed (i know because i happen to play one occasionally). In that case you´re getting into the territory where it´s questionable if it´s truely radiant magelight or the currently completely op mechanic of gapclosers that´s making rml good. I´d say it´s atleast debateable and my gutfeeling when playing is gapclosers not allowing me to escape is worse than the actual mechanic of rml.

However my argument in this topic is about rml being used as a defensive tool - which your point does not adress at all (apart from not being an option for anyone who dares to pve with a magica build in the first place).
So i still stand by the statement: RML is a completely worthless ability (unless you happen to use it offensively on a melee build with a gapcloser where it´s still debateable if it´s worth giving up two slots to counter one ability of one class - because rml does not serve another purpose).

Eh, it's still useful against this:

Between Snipe and all the Xeloki clones out there, I'd say RML is still useful defensively

Off-Topic: What's the archer density of AD in archers per meter square? I'm guessing its round 7 Archers per Square Meter. It's gotten to the point where if I'm not sniped at least four times in a fight against AD, I will find it odd.

Might be useful against the players who have no idea how to fight if their snipe fails (those won´t attack you when they see rml anyway). Against everyone else it´s merely two skills you won´t use against them which is a HUGE advantage for anyone familiar with the game.

Touche.

Still, I think we all know that you'll get added on to a fight by those trigger-happy snipers. RML will protect you when you do get added on. I know there isn't really much chance of survival when alone vs 5+ players, but I rather have the chance to react to sniper fire rather then instantly dropping dead. I'm a vampire, so I'm a prime target for camo hunter (Need my sneak speed!). RML gives me the fighting chance I need. Besides, it protects nearby allies as well. So really only one member of a team has to use RML for its protection to extend to all. Giving up two slots to save the lives of nearby allies is worth it in my opinion.

Fun fact: The mote of RML won't show to others if its casted in sneak. I found that out the hard way a few months ago.

Xeniph · December 2015

The issue with RML is folks expect more out of it than it provides. My Heavy attacks from stealth do 10-16k depending on armor/debuffs and whatnot. Animation canceling that heavy attack at full charge with a Surpise Attack will usually add another 6-9k.

Now I don't know about you, but reducing 10-16k by 56% and preventing the stun is a huge step in giving yourself time to react. That's reducing that damage to 4400-7040 respectively.

The skill has was never meant to trivialize the stealth play style, but it is meant to provide defense to one-shots from stealth, and in that way it is completely effective. I believe the issue is people expect the ability to completely counter stealth players and that was not it's intent.

Folks that refuse to use these counter abilities really have no clue. As a stealther, I am forced to change my tactics when I see a RML user, and it's a longer fight. So much so that I do not even stealth open on a player running RML, I prefer to open with CC and rely on cloak stuns afterwards.

jrkhan · December 2015

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Okay, I did some testing. I found out that L+R bash, light, and heavy attacks from crouch will stun for 4 seconds. It doesn't work with staffs, but it does work with bows. Seems unfair but okay.

Radiant Magelight prevents all those stuns from crouch.

The same attacks do not stun if you are merely invisible, but not crouched. So with no crouching, Dark Cloak + light attack will not stun someone.

Veiled Strike stuns when while crouched or invisible. Radiant Magelight does not provide immunity to either stun. So yeah, I would say it's just flat out broken.

I also tested Revealing Flare. It reveals both couched and invisible people. It also prevents both crouch and invisibility from being re-applied to the person hit with Revealing Flare for 5 seconds. You can Dark Cloak to purge the DoT, but you remain visible and targetable.

So for the purposes of Revealing Flare, "stealthed" means crouched or invisible. So I believe the same is true of Radiant Magelight. I think the Veiled Strike tooltip is the odd man out, adding a redundant "or invisible" after stealthed to be clear about how the mechanic is different from normal crouched attacks, which stun anyways.

If Radiant Magelight were only intended to prevent stuns from crouch, it should say hidden attacks rather than stealth attacks. Since normal attacks from invisibility don't stun, and only Veiled Strike does, I think the description does indicate it should prevent any stuns from Veiled Strike. I think it used to, but no longer does. And I think it's broken/bugged at the moment.

Let's put this another way:
If a sorc casts crystal frags, a dk hits you with fossilize, or a templar hits you with spear shards, you will be cc'd regardless of if they were in stealth or not, even if you run RML.

As you've noticed, every stamina based attack (which does not reveal the player prior to it hitting e.g. Not critical rush) grants a stun when used while hidden.
That is the only stun RML prevents.

It does not prevent the cc intrinsic to specific abilities.
The cc associated with veiled strike is specific to that ability, it is NOT the generic stun granted to stamina based stealth attacks.

I think the issue is, there's not really official in game documentation on the cc provided by stamina attacks while crouched.
If that cc had an actual name, then the mage light tool tip could be clearly worded to indicate that's the thing it prevents.

There's no reason to expect RML to prevent veiled strike from working when it has no effect on any other CC ability in the game (even when those abilities are used while in stealth)

Xeven · December 2015

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

Ambush isn't always a stealth attack

So, if someone initiates Ambush while not in stealth, you should be stunned

Ambush doesnt stun players, only NPCs.