If Vigor is moved to rank 5...

Zsymon · July 2015

manny254 wrote: »

tengri wrote: »

PvP crowd just got a whole new DLC incoming. High "incentives and rewards" and risk of dying included (read: permission to randomly steal other ppl's work/grind/stones).
You better dont say anything but a big fat thank you for the next year...

Please look at this to understand why a lot of pvp players think it should stay at 10. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points

From this you can see that AW 10 requires apx 7 million ap. Now look at the rank requirements for the higher levels. For the pvp players, in the big picture 7 million is nothing.

Rubbish, there are many players who have been PvP'ing for over a year and still haven't reached AW10.. it is far too high. Not everyone is able to spend 3-4 hours a day in Cyrodil.

This wish to stop the majority of players from having a vital skill is spiteful and ugly, and it is to the detriment of the game if they would ever listen to such arguments.

MrGhosty · July 2015

First, I think the thread is being derailed slightly. The OP isn't complaining about the skill being lowered, just that having such a powerful skill readily available will lead to more blobbing.

I've only just recently come back to PvP, but I've not personally seen much of this heavy vigor use. It's all just healing springs sparkles and BOL shimmers when the zerg trains.

As for the skill itself, I'm personally quite glad to be getting access to it as I don't PvP as often as I'd like to but having that heal with my build will be very much appreciated.

As for making it a heal self only skill? Sure, why not. Though it would be nice to be able to help folks out as I'm lone wolfing about. If limitations are placed on it, i'd rather it become a targeted aoe rather than something that has to calculate another cap. It seems like a lot of the PvP problems are all the checks the servers have to do so let's avoid suggesting more checks.

symonator · July 2015

I been working towards caltrops on assault for my tank.
Is this being moved lol?

Solanum · July 2015

I wholeheartedly agree to the move to a lower rank, so that the heal will be more accessible for players.

Aside from stamina badly lacking any form of proper healing aside from rally, and lacking decent damage shields, it seems magicka still reigns supreme.
Also, unless they implement a semblance of balance they shouldn't make skills that are close to a necessity locked behind an insanely long grind.

If you are against blobbing, voice your concerns against that, and address not only the stamina damage and healing abilities, but also the vast array of magicka oriented abilities that strongly support blobbing.

I'd be happy to see for example a penalty on AoE damage for every ally in it's radius. Or for healing to get a reduction when it hits many allies.

PikkonMG · July 2015

I think vigor should be lowered from 24 to maybe rank 15 but not rank 5.

Xeniph · July 2015

It's being moved for quite a few reasons, most of which have been pointed out here in the thread. However the most obvious reason seems to have been over-looked.

The goal of 1.7 from the gate is to reduce TTK. Basically anyone who has devoted a few hours to pvp will have access to this, thus accomplishing the goal.

The adjustmens will take place on the Test server and the few weeks within 1.7 hitting live, if the community as a whole thinks it's needs to be.

And I can tell you that none of Stamina DPS in a raid need to run this, as 2 or 3 healers are plenty as of now. It may well open up a new raid configuration, like stamina DK healers. We will just have to see.

Sanct16 · July 2015

GNRNCSBLSS wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

To start, I will say I am totally opposed to this change. There are two reasons for this:
Incentives and rewards for PvP are already lacking, this change only reduces these further to benefit PvErs who don't want to spend any time in PvP.

The skill is very strong and opening it up to most of Cyrodiil is going to tip the meta in favour of zergs even more.

It is clear that Zenimax intends to go through with this change, which I consider unfortunate, but they are casual caterers (and always have been) and so the argument in point one will get us nowhere.

With that said we have to look to point two and attempt to resolve that problem because evidently this skill is going to become available to everyone very soon. We have already seen a rise in the steel tornado zerg meta which a lot of PvPers who don't like to zerg it up with 24+ man raids consider ridiculous. If vigor is unlocked for everyone and his mother, these same steel tornado spammers will be gifted with a very strong heal that also heals their group. As more people get access to it, not only will characters with the strongest AOE DPS but they will also suddenly have access to a very strong AOE heal. The steel tornado spamming zergs will become even more difficult to kill, which is frankly ridiculous.

So what do I suggest should happen instead? Well, for a start I think this skill should be removed from the alliance war line altogether and replaced with something else that can be at rank 10 (suggestions welcome). It was not very clever of Zenimax to lock one of the only stamina heals behind an alliance war grind - it should never have happened in the first place.

Secondly, this should be changed to a self heal. This is the most important thing. You can keep it in the alliance war tree if you really must, but ZOS I implore you not to keep this skill as an AOE heal. Keep it as a HoT, keep it at its current values, but make it single (self) targeted. This will prevent the issue of zergs becoming even more stronger with 90% of their damage dealers suddenly becoming healers also.

My personal suggestion would be to change the increased healing morph of bone shield (in the undaunted skill line) to offer a small physical shield and some healing - making it the stamina equivalent of healing ward (although with marginally less healing, as it also offers a group buff of increased healing for group members).

Of course I would love to hear everyone's suggestions as to what alternatives there are - but one thing is clear (to me at least) an AOE heal is a bad idea.

Obligatory @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_RichLambert (because I know you actually read threads!) I was also shocked to find out that it seems Eric Wrobel does not seem to have a forum account... well "shocked" is the wrong word... disappointed but not surprised is probably a better way of putting it. Anyway, I digress..

Couple things...

There's a reason vigor is being moved to rank 5, do you actually know why? Likely not, considering this entire post, but ill tell you: It requires 6,918,400 Alliance Points to unlock vigor right now.

Not sure how many hours a day you play, obviously more than the vast majority players, but lets do a little math.

At most, the average player will gain 30K AP points a day, assuming they work/ go to school, have a family, have homework, etc, most will play 2-3 hours a day, I'm talking about 90% of all ESO players here.

So 30K AP a day would equal to 230.6 days. More than 7 and a half months. But for your sake, ill even round it down to 7 months because sometimes you'll get over 30K AP a day. So now we're at 7 entire months.

And keep in mind, this isn't 7 months of getting on for an hour and ganking a couple dudes... no. This is 7 months of solid 2-3 hours every day following a very organized group/zerg that you can only generally find in a very organized guild. Extreme grinding essentially.

So in reality... you're claiming that doing all of that is completely justifiable for the only good stamina heal? I mean the other option is Rally, which offers a poor-to-mediocre HoT which actually loses out on the biggest heal if you cast it again.

No dude, lmao, no. It's not realistic for 90% of players.

However, while I love the fact that they're moving vigor down, I do think rank 5 is too low, if it were up to me, I would move caltrops down to 5, and vigor to 6, or caltrop to 7, but definitely vigor to 6.

Additionally, not sure at all where you're playing, but literally no one at all uses steel tornado in PvP, I've seen it maybe once, if that. That's just a straight lie, don't lie, not cool.

On the other hand, I like your idea about making vigor a self heal only, I'm in support of that.

2-3 hours with a "very organized guild" means 80-150k Ap. If you get 30k Ap in 2-3 hours your group is just bad. Even if you don't play with a group, 30k Ap/h is easy to get if you want to.

Ezareth · July 2015

Sanct16 wrote: »

GNRNCSBLSS wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

To start, I will say I am totally opposed to this change. There are two reasons for this:
Incentives and rewards for PvP are already lacking, this change only reduces these further to benefit PvErs who don't want to spend any time in PvP.

The skill is very strong and opening it up to most of Cyrodiil is going to tip the meta in favour of zergs even more.

It is clear that Zenimax intends to go through with this change, which I consider unfortunate, but they are casual caterers (and always have been) and so the argument in point one will get us nowhere.

With that said we have to look to point two and attempt to resolve that problem because evidently this skill is going to become available to everyone very soon. We have already seen a rise in the steel tornado zerg meta which a lot of PvPers who don't like to zerg it up with 24+ man raids consider ridiculous. If vigor is unlocked for everyone and his mother, these same steel tornado spammers will be gifted with a very strong heal that also heals their group. As more people get access to it, not only will characters with the strongest AOE DPS but they will also suddenly have access to a very strong AOE heal. The steel tornado spamming zergs will become even more difficult to kill, which is frankly ridiculous.

So what do I suggest should happen instead? Well, for a start I think this skill should be removed from the alliance war line altogether and replaced with something else that can be at rank 10 (suggestions welcome). It was not very clever of Zenimax to lock one of the only stamina heals behind an alliance war grind - it should never have happened in the first place.

Secondly, this should be changed to a self heal. This is the most important thing. You can keep it in the alliance war tree if you really must, but ZOS I implore you not to keep this skill as an AOE heal. Keep it as a HoT, keep it at its current values, but make it single (self) targeted. This will prevent the issue of zergs becoming even more stronger with 90% of their damage dealers suddenly becoming healers also.

My personal suggestion would be to change the increased healing morph of bone shield (in the undaunted skill line) to offer a small physical shield and some healing - making it the stamina equivalent of healing ward (although with marginally less healing, as it also offers a group buff of increased healing for group members).

Of course I would love to hear everyone's suggestions as to what alternatives there are - but one thing is clear (to me at least) an AOE heal is a bad idea.

Obligatory @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_RichLambert (because I know you actually read threads!) I was also shocked to find out that it seems Eric Wrobel does not seem to have a forum account... well "shocked" is the wrong word... disappointed but not surprised is probably a better way of putting it. Anyway, I digress..

Couple things...

There's a reason vigor is being moved to rank 5, do you actually know why? Likely not, considering this entire post, but ill tell you: It requires 6,918,400 Alliance Points to unlock vigor right now.

Not sure how many hours a day you play, obviously more than the vast majority players, but lets do a little math.

At most, the average player will gain 30K AP points a day, assuming they work/ go to school, have a family, have homework, etc, most will play 2-3 hours a day, I'm talking about 90% of all ESO players here.

So 30K AP a day would equal to 230.6 days. More than 7 and a half months. But for your sake, ill even round it down to 7 months because sometimes you'll get over 30K AP a day. So now we're at 7 entire months.

And keep in mind, this isn't 7 months of getting on for an hour and ganking a couple dudes... no. This is 7 months of solid 2-3 hours every day following a very organized group/zerg that you can only generally find in a very organized guild. Extreme grinding essentially.

So in reality... you're claiming that doing all of that is completely justifiable for the only good stamina heal? I mean the other option is Rally, which offers a poor-to-mediocre HoT which actually loses out on the biggest heal if you cast it again.

No dude, lmao, no. It's not realistic for 90% of players.

However, while I love the fact that they're moving vigor down, I do think rank 5 is too low, if it were up to me, I would move caltrops down to 5, and vigor to 6, or caltrop to 7, but definitely vigor to 6.

Additionally, not sure at all where you're playing, but literally no one at all uses steel tornado in PvP, I've seen it maybe once, if that. That's just a straight lie, don't lie, not cool.

On the other hand, I like your idea about making vigor a self heal only, I'm in support of that.

2-3 hours with a "very organized guild" means 80-150k Ap. If you get 30k Ap in 2-3 hours your group is just bad. Even if you don't play with a group, 30k Ap/h is easy to get if you want to.

The only place anyone is consistently getting that kind of AP right now on NA is on Azuras....maybe and the lag makes that whole campaign a slide show. No thanks.

Getting 30K AP in 2-3 hours is decent otherwise since the rest of the campaigns are pretty much dead.

Erondil · July 2015

GNRNCSBLSS wrote: »

Additionally, not sure at all where you're playing, but literally no one at all uses steel tornado in PvP, I've seen it maybe once, if that. That's just a straight lie, don't lie, not cool

lmfao

Ezareth · July 2015

Erondil wrote: »

GNRNCSBLSS wrote: »

Additionally, not sure at all where you're playing, but literally no one at all uses steel tornado in PvP, I've seen it maybe once, if that. That's just a straight lie, don't lie, not cool

lmfao

Maybe he's an Xbox player or something and the meta is different there.

Sanct16 · July 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

GNRNCSBLSS wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

To start, I will say I am totally opposed to this change. There are two reasons for this:
Incentives and rewards for PvP are already lacking, this change only reduces these further to benefit PvErs who don't want to spend any time in PvP.

The skill is very strong and opening it up to most of Cyrodiil is going to tip the meta in favour of zergs even more.

It is clear that Zenimax intends to go through with this change, which I consider unfortunate, but they are casual caterers (and always have been) and so the argument in point one will get us nowhere.

With that said we have to look to point two and attempt to resolve that problem because evidently this skill is going to become available to everyone very soon. We have already seen a rise in the steel tornado zerg meta which a lot of PvPers who don't like to zerg it up with 24+ man raids consider ridiculous. If vigor is unlocked for everyone and his mother, these same steel tornado spammers will be gifted with a very strong heal that also heals their group. As more people get access to it, not only will characters with the strongest AOE DPS but they will also suddenly have access to a very strong AOE heal. The steel tornado spamming zergs will become even more difficult to kill, which is frankly ridiculous.

So what do I suggest should happen instead? Well, for a start I think this skill should be removed from the alliance war line altogether and replaced with something else that can be at rank 10 (suggestions welcome). It was not very clever of Zenimax to lock one of the only stamina heals behind an alliance war grind - it should never have happened in the first place.

Secondly, this should be changed to a self heal. This is the most important thing. You can keep it in the alliance war tree if you really must, but ZOS I implore you not to keep this skill as an AOE heal. Keep it as a HoT, keep it at its current values, but make it single (self) targeted. This will prevent the issue of zergs becoming even more stronger with 90% of their damage dealers suddenly becoming healers also.

My personal suggestion would be to change the increased healing morph of bone shield (in the undaunted skill line) to offer a small physical shield and some healing - making it the stamina equivalent of healing ward (although with marginally less healing, as it also offers a group buff of increased healing for group members).

Of course I would love to hear everyone's suggestions as to what alternatives there are - but one thing is clear (to me at least) an AOE heal is a bad idea.

Obligatory @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_RichLambert (because I know you actually read threads!) I was also shocked to find out that it seems Eric Wrobel does not seem to have a forum account... well "shocked" is the wrong word... disappointed but not surprised is probably a better way of putting it. Anyway, I digress..

Couple things...

There's a reason vigor is being moved to rank 5, do you actually know why? Likely not, considering this entire post, but ill tell you: It requires 6,918,400 Alliance Points to unlock vigor right now.

Not sure how many hours a day you play, obviously more than the vast majority players, but lets do a little math.

At most, the average player will gain 30K AP points a day, assuming they work/ go to school, have a family, have homework, etc, most will play 2-3 hours a day, I'm talking about 90% of all ESO players here.

So 30K AP a day would equal to 230.6 days. More than 7 and a half months. But for your sake, ill even round it down to 7 months because sometimes you'll get over 30K AP a day. So now we're at 7 entire months.

And keep in mind, this isn't 7 months of getting on for an hour and ganking a couple dudes... no. This is 7 months of solid 2-3 hours every day following a very organized group/zerg that you can only generally find in a very organized guild. Extreme grinding essentially.

So in reality... you're claiming that doing all of that is completely justifiable for the only good stamina heal? I mean the other option is Rally, which offers a poor-to-mediocre HoT which actually loses out on the biggest heal if you cast it again.

No dude, lmao, no. It's not realistic for 90% of players.

However, while I love the fact that they're moving vigor down, I do think rank 5 is too low, if it were up to me, I would move caltrops down to 5, and vigor to 6, or caltrop to 7, but definitely vigor to 6.

Additionally, not sure at all where you're playing, but literally no one at all uses steel tornado in PvP, I've seen it maybe once, if that. That's just a straight lie, don't lie, not cool.

On the other hand, I like your idea about making vigor a self heal only, I'm in support of that.

2-3 hours with a "very organized guild" means 80-150k Ap. If you get 30k Ap in 2-3 hours your group is just bad. Even if you don't play with a group, 30k Ap/h is easy to get if you want to.

The only place anyone is consistently getting that kind of AP right now on NA is on Azuras....maybe and the lag makes that whole campaign a slide show. No thanks.

Getting 30K AP in 2-3 hours is decent otherwise since the rest of the campaigns are pretty much dead.

Oh really? I expected NA and EU to be similar.

On EU during day only Thornblade has action, but no lag during that time. In the evenings/prime time all campaigns are populated but Azura/Thorn are lagging, still you can make enough AP on Haderus/Chill, sometimes even Thorn/Azura when lag isnt too bad.

Definetly possible to be at 40k/h no matter what time you start. Exact number depends on how often you need to switch campaigns etc.

Quantine · July 2015

I agree with the OP. Noone needs a stamina AoE heal. Make it single target and it will be fine. But putting it on Assault 5 as an AoE heal effectively buffs the steel tornado zerg.

And on the EU PC server every big group runs steel tornados :-/

Leandor · July 2015

Quantine wrote: »

I agree with the OP. Noone needs a stamina AoE heal. Make it single target and it will be fine. But putting it on Assault 5 as an AoE heal effectively buffs the steel tornado zerg.

And on the EU PC server every big group runs steel tornados :-/

To be precise, I only know one single group that does not run steel tornado spam, and that group runs prox bombing (which makes it as bad as the steel tornado'ers).

Quantine · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Quantine wrote: »

I agree with the OP. Noone needs a stamina AoE heal. Make it single target and it will be fine. But putting it on Assault 5 as an AoE heal effectively buffs the steel tornado zerg.

And on the EU PC server every big group runs steel tornados :-/

To be precise, I only know one single group that does not run steel tornado spam, and that group runs prox bombing (which makes it as bad as the steel tornado'ers).

Well almost. At least it requires a bit better coordination and awarwness to use properly (that going to change next patch though). And you need to get close to actually utilize it, which makes it difficult for smaller groups to survive the ridiculous tornado range while engaging and disengaging: -/

Solanum · July 2015

If a skill is a bad idea/bad design at rank 1 it's still going to be a bad idea/bad design at rank 10.
If people want to run in a group and throw AoE heals they can already do so with the restostaff. (except restostaves will be the far superior choice for healing)

Here is what changes, more people will have access to the skill. If the skill is broken/too powerful this becomes more noticeable so that the "problem" can be addressed.

I think people whom are opposed to this change are mostly people with a high rank that want to keep an advantage over other players, and magicka users whom want to keep an advantage over players with a stamina build.

Sanct16 · July 2015

Solanum wrote: »

If a skill is a bad idea/bad design at rank 1 it's still going to be a bad idea/bad design at rank 10.

If people want to run in a group and throw AoE heals they can already do so with the restostaff. (except restostaves will be the far superior choice for healing)

Here is what changes, more people will have access to the skill. If the skill is broken/too powerful this becomes more noticeable so that the "problem" can be addressed.

I think people whom are opposed to this change are mostly people with a high rank that want to keep an advantage over other players, and magicka users whom want to keep an advantage over players with a stamina build.

Because we all know fast ZOS fixes "problems"... sharpened maces *cough*

Lorkhan · July 2015

Solanum · July 2015

Lorkhan wrote: »

And the least useful post in the discussion award goes tooooooo!
No seriously, what's the point to post in a thread that you didn't read?

Anyway, @Sanct16 I truly agree that sharpened maces, and Nirnhoned bugs (previously on weapons, and now finally getting fixed on armor) are disgraceful, and should be addressed much much sooner.

But giving stamina users a mediocre heal with short range AoE healing effects is not unbalancing, with the lack of decent stamina based absorption shields, and heals, and the nerf to dodgerolling this skill may very well become a necessity.

tonemd · July 2015

Solanum wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

But giving stamina users a mediocre heal with short range AoE healing effects is not unbalancing, with the lack of decent stamina based absorption shields, and heals, and the nerf to dodgerolling this skill may very well become a necessity.

Dodge rolling AND blocking.

Hey folks, take your stam build on PTS and see if vigor is over powered. I'm telling now, it ain't.

Lorkhan · July 2015

tonemd wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

But giving stamina users a mediocre heal with short range AoE healing effects is not unbalancing, with the lack of decent stamina based absorption shields, and heals, and the nerf to dodgerolling this skill may very well become a necessity.

Dodge rolling AND blocking.

Hey folks, take your stam build on PTS and see if vigor is over powered. I'm telling now, it ain't.

vigor is not op indeed

Weberda · July 2015

Lorkhan wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

But giving stamina users a mediocre heal with short range AoE healing effects is not unbalancing, with the lack of decent stamina based absorption shields, and heals, and the nerf to dodgerolling this skill may very well become a necessity.

Dodge rolling AND blocking.

Hey folks, take your stam build on PTS and see if vigor is over powered. I'm telling now, it ain't.

vigor is not op indeed

I think it dropped on my toon from 5k+ HOT to 3K+ on the PTS at rank 5.

zornyan · July 2015

Even at 110k an hour is still 65 odd days, that's if every day your group does extremely well, that also means you need to be on at the right time each day, on the right campaign, and server, if you don't meet one of those criteria you're kinds screwed.

30-50k is average for a person of average skill, and 100-300 days is a *** load of time to grind for one skill. A skill that is only giving stam users a healing skill.

Leandor · July 2015

Weberda wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

But giving stamina users a mediocre heal with short range AoE healing effects is not unbalancing, with the lack of decent stamina based absorption shields, and heals, and the nerf to dodgerolling this skill may very well become a necessity.

Dodge rolling AND blocking.

Hey folks, take your stam build on PTS and see if vigor is over powered. I'm telling now, it ain't.

vigor is not op indeed

I think it dropped on my toon from 5k+ HOT to 3K+ on the PTS at rank 5.

Which will be due to the healing reduction and not due to the change of access rank.

Weberda · July 2015

Leandor wrote: »

Weberda wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

Solanum wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

But giving stamina users a mediocre heal with short range AoE healing effects is not unbalancing, with the lack of decent stamina based absorption shields, and heals, and the nerf to dodgerolling this skill may very well become a necessity.

Dodge rolling AND blocking.

Hey folks, take your stam build on PTS and see if vigor is over powered. I'm telling now, it ain't.

vigor is not op indeed

I think it dropped on my toon from 5k+ HOT to 3K+ on the PTS at rank 5.

Which will be due to the healing reduction and not due to the change of access rank.

Yeah probably. Either way it's a waste of a skill point for me now. Won't bother with it on my DK when the drop goes live.

cjthibs · July 2015

If Vigor is moved to Rank 5...clearly the entire mundus will implode, killing us all.

Vigor is not as powerful as other heals...I really don't understand this debate.