If Vigor is moved to rank 5...

Suntzu1414

agree

Kill Well
ST

sphane

Imo, The skill sould just be removed from the game. This is a non sense to bring so much powerfull and cheap heal to configurations like stam nb that are not supposed to have self heal out of combat. The stam configurations have no sacrifice to do in their build with this skill. They can rely only on 3 or 4 skills, go to full burst and almost never switch weapon.

Leandor

sphane wrote: »

Imo, The skill sould just be removed from the game. This is a non sense to bring so much powerfull and cheap heal to configurations like stam nb that are not supposed to have self heal out of combat. The stam configurations have no sacrifice to do in their build with this skill. They can rely only on 3 or 4 skills, go to full burst and almost never switch weapon.

Please play a stamina nightblade without using 2H before you make such posts.

sphane

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Imo, The skill sould just be removed from the game. This is a non sense to bring so much powerfull and cheap heal to configurations like stam nb that are not supposed to have self heal out of combat. The stam configurations have no sacrifice to do in their build with this skill. They can rely only on 3 or 4 skills, go to full burst and almost never switch weapon.

Please play a stamina nightblade without using 2H before you make such posts.

i play one. anything else ?

Leandor

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Imo, The skill sould just be removed from the game. This is a non sense to bring so much powerfull and cheap heal to configurations like stam nb that are not supposed to have self heal out of combat. The stam configurations have no sacrifice to do in their build with this skill. They can rely only on 3 or 4 skills, go to full burst and almost never switch weapon.

Please play a stamina nightblade without using 2H before you make such posts.

i play one. anything else ?

I play a sherman tank. Anything else? Do you think just stating something like that increases your credibility?

It is impossible for me to believe you do with that statement above, at least you do not play pvp. In case you actually do, I'm sorry for your loss.

sphane

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Imo, The skill sould just be removed from the game. This is a non sense to bring so much powerfull and cheap heal to configurations like stam nb that are not supposed to have self heal out of combat. The stam configurations have no sacrifice to do in their build with this skill. They can rely only on 3 or 4 skills, go to full burst and almost never switch weapon.

Please play a stamina nightblade without using 2H before you make such posts.

i play one. anything else ?

I play a sherman tank. Anything else? Do you think just stating something like that increases your credibility?

It is impossible for me to believe you do with that statement above, at least you do not play pvp. In case you actually do, I'm sorry for your loss.

Well you are just mad behind your computer. I feel your fear to see this skill nerfed. You will be so lost.

Kas

imho combat frenzy is the perfect ability.

level 2 is kinda hard to obtain (imho abilities of this style should be added until Arank 50).
totally useless in pve.
really powerful in pvp
still not OP and not gamebreakign by any means.

I don't have a problem if active abilities with uses in become readily available. I want more abilities like combat frenzy and I want them coming every few levels all the way up to 50.

Passive, only useful in pvp, a true and significant advantage to have them, not making it impossible for a fresh V14 to kill a highly ranked player (maybe make it a little harder, power differences are already present through the champion system. why not make pvp passives and equally big factor. most importantly, AR50 fighting AR1 isn't use "usual" faceoff)

Leandor

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Imo, The skill sould just be removed from the game. This is a non sense to bring so much powerfull and cheap heal to configurations like stam nb that are not supposed to have self heal out of combat. The stam configurations have no sacrifice to do in their build with this skill. They can rely only on 3 or 4 skills, go to full burst and almost never switch weapon.

Please play a stamina nightblade without using 2H before you make such posts.

i play one. anything else ?

I play a sherman tank. Anything else? Do you think just stating something like that increases your credibility?

It is impossible for me to believe you do with that statement above, at least you do not play pvp. In case you actually do, I'm sorry for your loss.

Well you are just mad bebind tour computer. I feel your fear to see this skill nerfed. You will be so lost.

Hehe, go go, ad hominem! You have no clue about how I play my nightblade, mate. Also, I would like to refer you to this post I made earlier in this very discussion thread:

Leandor wrote: »

Violently opposing this. Do not ever move this to Undaunted line, simply because it is not useful there. The content that will increase the Undaunted line is exclusively group content and as such it does not have a need for a "single target heal for stamina DDs". Groups are supposed to consist of a balanced choice of participants, this change would only make the "4 DD bomb through mechanics" meta be even more preferable.

While I agree with the choice to make it single target, I would do that only for the increased healing morph and the base ability. Make the second morph have double stamina cost but the same group heal functionality as it has now. Make it skill line rank 5, if you absolutely have to (that is at most two weeks of play, even for very casual pvp), but do not ever consider moving it to Undaunted.

Which means that I

1. Agree to make this single target in order to remove the necessity for 2H for stamina builds (a nerf)
2. Propose to increase the cost if you want it to be the existing iteration of AoE heal (a nerf)
3. Oppose it being made easily available since it is so powerful that it is in line with other end-of-skill-line-abilities (oppose an actual buff that is slated to be implemented)

I advise to check what you accuse others off before making a fool out of yourself.

Kas

aco5712 wrote: »

can you guys imagine......

8~ stam DKs in one group (saying a group is 16-24)

Their job is to hit igneous and then vigor and then steel tornado. Rinse and repeat. With the decreased dmg coming in 1.7, this could the beginning of DK healers O.O if a group stacks tight enough on crown, templars wont be needed xD

i don't know why nobody understands it. there's already bno point in templars spamming springs. dk's could do it better. period. templar are needed for Repentance, BoL (not everyone sticks), illuminate passive, nova and shards. Sure, it may make sense to slot springs/combat prayer and sue them accordingly (especially if you have healign focused gear due to your BoL + Repentance role). But if those are the skills you cast the majority of the time, you should rather use a DK with igneous.

sphane

Leandor wrote: »

I advise to check what you accuse others off before making a fool out of yourself.

Well, clap clap clap.

Read carrefully again. Maybe your advices might be suitable for yourself and your agressivity.

QuebraRegra

Derra wrote: »

The only problem i see with vigor is that it´s a hot that stacks with itself when cast from multiple sources. That´s what is broken about it. They should either reduce the target cap to like 3 - or make the heal not stackable from multiple casters. I´d prefer the 2nd option personally.

Truf!

By comparison, look at say "FUNNEL HEALTH", it does not stack in a group. You get the buff from ONE funnel health at a time. It's ALWAYS been that way. Now if a group were coordinated enuff to take turns they could keep a heal going indefinite, but not stacked.

This would be a step forward to bring balance to the unstoppable mass healing zerg ball.

Leandor

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I advise to check what you accuse others off before making a fool out of yourself.

Well, clap clap clap.

Read carrefully again. Maybe your advices might be suitable for yourself and your agressivity.

Oh I read it. You proposed to remove vigor, green dragon blood and all healing spells for stamplar from game because stamina builds are not supposed to be able to heal themselves. Right?

You secreting out nightblades was your main mistake. The class IS build around not having a good self heal ability, you are right in that one. Seeing that every nightblade (except for those running in a zerg/blob spamming steel tornado and occasionally fear) in pvp runs either vigor or 2H for rally gives a precise indication on the viability of that stance.

sphane

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I advise to check what you accuse others off before making a fool out of yourself.

Well, clap clap clap.

Read carrefully again. Maybe your advices might be suitable for yourself and your agressivity.

Oh I read it. You proposed to remove vigor, green dragon blood and all healing spells for stamplar from game because stamina builds are not supposed to be able to heal themselves. Right?

You secreting out nightblades was your main mistake. The class IS build around not having a good self heal ability, you are right in that one. Seeing that every nightblade (except for those running in a zerg/blob spamming steel tornado and occasionally fear) in pvp runs either vigor or 2H for rally gives a precise indication on the viability of that stance.

omg... i'm just talking about vigor. A stam nb should be forced to use siphoning tree skills or a resto staff or 2h rally : and as stam nb this would have a cost that would bring balance. A stam dk should have to rely on gdb but this has a heavy cost too and is not so powerfull because you cant go too low to avoid execution. Same kind of things for a stam templar. dk and temp dont have escape, so having a self heal is justified even as stam but with a cost.

you want to burst and survive as nb : ambush surprise attack fear cloak and vigor : what else ? oh sherry on the cake equip one mace. Without vigor you would pay the price for your high damage capability.

so yes i think removing vigor will bring more balance.

Rescorla_ESO

Cathexis wrote: »

The problem isn't an aoe heal for Stam users.

The problem is aoe skills in general.

If they balanced PvP in favour of single target attacks, lag would drop tremendously and zerg balls would be less efficient.

The end result would be diffuse combat.

On that note, it would be interesting if there was a special PVP campaign where friendly fire was enabled for AOE skills only. This would cause a fundamental shift in how PVP was played. It might open the door for same faction griefers but that might be worth it if friendly fire cut down on the number of AOE skills used and made PVP more skill based.

Leandor

It is okay to use Rally (from a skill line that actually provides the "big hits" you complain about) but vigor must be removed because nightblades can use it? Sorry, mate, you make zero sense.

The only thing that vigor needs is the limitation to single target, and that only because it is going to be available very easily. This skill in itself is a godsend for many builds, not just stamina nightblades.

sphane

Leandor wrote: »

It is okay to use Rally (from a skill line that actually provides the "big hits" you complain about) but vigor must be removed because nightblades can use it? Sorry, mate, you make zero sense.

The only thing that vigor needs is the limitation to single target, and that only because it is going to be available very easily. This skill in itself is a godsend for many builds, not just stamina nightblades.

1/using rally force you to switch weapon in most of cases... and it makes a huge difference. 2/ the tick is far lower, occurs every 2 second, and the final heal you might want to anticipate force you to switch weapon again.

Keep your own advice in mind again. I'm not complaining about damages. But making statements about the price you have to pay for such capability and sacrifice you are forced to do to achieve theses capabilities.

Leandor

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

It is okay to use Rally (from a skill line that actually provides the "big hits" you complain about) but vigor must be removed because nightblades can use it? Sorry, mate, you make zero sense.

The only thing that vigor needs is the limitation to single target, and that only because it is going to be available very easily. This skill in itself is a godsend for many builds, not just stamina nightblades.

1/using rally force you to switch weapon in most of cases... and it makes a huge difference. 2/ the tick is far lower, occurs every 2 second, and the final heal you might want to anticipate force you to switch weapon again.

Keep your own advice in mind again. I'm not complaining about damages. But making statements about the price you have to pay for such capability and sacrifice you are forced to do to achieve theses capabilities.

Keep in mind what I am saying. Every class has a viable healing function (be it class or weapon based) except for stamina nightblades and stamina sorcs. With the current TTK, a class without self healing is at a severe disadvantage in comparison to those that have it, no matter the "escape mechanic" in place. Even with the purported change to detection pots (which I actually do oppose as well), cloak is a situationally overpowered but at least as often useless escape functionality.

Why would rally force me to switch weapons? First, it is the longest duration major brutality buff apart from potions. It is up constantly so it provides a major source of healing on demand. Second, 2H is often combined with either a ranged option (bow), an AoE option (DW) or a defensive option (S&B). It remains the primary attack option for single target in any of those cases, thus I do not see the basis for your statement that "you have to change bars to use it".

Even if 2H is used as buff bar only, the major brutality would be kept up the same. Switching once in order to heal if not on the 2H bar is the same as having vigor on a bar and using the alternative. In my eyes, that argument you put up in defense is void, especially since vigor is a hot while rally provides an instant heal that can be gigantic if timed well. I have seen people going from almost dead to full in the blink of an eye with a rally heal.

The sacrifice that rally takes is quite obvious in Cyrodiil: every stamina build runs 2H. The few exceptions are either blobbers who depend on others for healing or people that actually have vigor unlocked. I have played my nightblade without 2H all the way up to AR 24. The difference between that and now (where I use vigor) is overwhelming. Not because I do not die anymore - but simply because I get a second chance if my first cloak bugs out or I mess up.

Nonetheless, I still chug about three times as many pots on my nightblade then on my sorc (and that is not counting detection pots).

tonemd

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

It is okay to use Rally (from a skill line that actually provides the "big hits" you complain about) but vigor must be removed because nightblades can use it? Sorry, mate, you make zero sense.

The only thing that vigor needs is the limitation to single target, and that only because it is going to be available very easily. This skill in itself is a godsend for many builds, not just stamina nightblades.

1/using rally force you to switch weapon in most of cases... and it makes a huge difference. 2/ the tick is far lower, occurs every 2 second, and the final heal you might want to anticipate force you to switch weapon again.

Keep your own advice in mind again. I'm not complaining about damages. But making statements about the price you have to pay for such capability and sacrifice you are forced to do to achieve theses capabilities.

Rally can be used to insta heal yourself out of certain death. Since you probably also have high stam regen and a high stam pool it can be used to get you back up, allowing you to tumble away and pop invis to escape. It's a much better skill than Vigor. Vigor just allows Stam NBs another option.

driosketch

manny254 wrote: »

tengri wrote: »

PvP crowd just got a whole new DLC incoming. High "incentives and rewards" and risk of dying included (read: permission to randomly steal other ppl's work/grind/stones).
You better dont say anything but a big fat thank you for the next year...

Please look at this to understand why a lot of pvp players think it should stay at 10. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points


From this you can see that AW 10 requires apx 7 million ap. Now look at the rank requirements for the higher levels. For the pvp players, in the big picture 7 million is nothing.

For the AP farmers. The average pvp player earns far far less, like most don't even achieve teir 3 in a campaign.


But I only care because I have a stamina NB alt who's DW/bow and could use a better heal.

Ezareth

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I advise to check what you accuse others off before making a fool out of yourself.

Well, clap clap clap.

Read carrefully again. Maybe your advices might be suitable for yourself and your agressivity.

Oh I read it. You proposed to remove vigor, green dragon blood and all healing spells for stamplar from game because stamina builds are not supposed to be able to heal themselves. Right?

You secreting out nightblades was your main mistake. The class IS build around not having a good self heal ability, you are right in that one. Seeing that every nightblade (except for those running in a zerg/blob spamming steel tornado and occasionally fear) in pvp runs either vigor or 2H for rally gives a precise indication on the viability of that stance.

omg... i'm just talking about vigor. A stam nb should be forced to use siphoning tree skills or a resto staff or 2h rally : and as stam nb this would have a cost that would bring balance. A stam dk should have to rely on gdb but this has a heavy cost too and is not so powerfull because you cant go too low to avoid execution. Same kind of things for a stam templar. dk and temp dont have escape, so having a self heal is justified even as stam but with a cost.

you want to burst and survive as nb : ambush surprise attack fear cloak and vigor : what else ? oh sherry on the cake equip one mace. Without vigor you would pay the price for your high damage capability.

so yes i think removing vigor will bring more balance.

Stamina NB Primary defense (Roll Dodge) is getting a huge nerf next patch. Without access to a reliable *Stamina* based heal the class is going to become even easier to kill than it already is for skilled players.

Siphoning Trees and Resto staff are only useful for a *Magicka* nightblade not a Stamina nightblade.

You say you play a Stamina nightblade but you're either incredibly unskilled/unexperienced with it or you're just making that up. The class is not complete without a heal as there is nothing a Stamina NB can do to prevent taking damage while he is attacking or when he is hit by the host of abilities that go through dodge roll. Rally by itself doesn't cut it against a single player, yet alone more than 1. Vigor is an absolute must for any skilled Stamina NB to be effective without a dedicated healer unless he's using a Gank from stealth and run build.

sphane

Ezareth wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I advise to check what you accuse others off before making a fool out of yourself.

Well, clap clap clap.

Read carrefully again. Maybe your advices might be suitable for yourself and your agressivity.

Oh I read it. You proposed to remove vigor, green dragon blood and all healing spells for stamplar from game because stamina builds are not supposed to be able to heal themselves. Right?

You secreting out nightblades was your main mistake. The class IS build around not having a good self heal ability, you are right in that one. Seeing that every nightblade (except for those running in a zerg/blob spamming steel tornado and occasionally fear) in pvp runs either vigor or 2H for rally gives a precise indication on the viability of that stance.

omg... i'm just talking about vigor. A stam nb should be forced to use siphoning tree skills or a resto staff or 2h rally : and as stam nb this would have a cost that would bring balance. A stam dk should have to rely on gdb but this has a heavy cost too and is not so powerfull because you cant go too low to avoid execution. Same kind of things for a stam templar. dk and temp dont have escape, so having a self heal is justified even as stam but with a cost.

you want to burst and survive as nb : ambush surprise attack fear cloak and vigor : what else ? oh sherry on the cake equip one mace. Without vigor you would pay the price for your high damage capability.

so yes i think removing vigor will bring more balance.

Stamina NB Primary defense (Roll Dodge) is getting a huge nerf next patch. Without access to a reliable *Stamina* based heal the class is going to become even easier to kill than it already is for skilled players.

Siphoning Trees and Resto staff are only useful for a *Magicka* nightblade not a Stamina nightblade.

You say you play a Stamina nightblade but you're either incredibly unskilled/unexperienced with it or you're just making that up. The class is not complete without a heal as there is nothing a Stamina NB can do to prevent taking damage while he is attacking or when he is hit by the host of abilities that go through dodge roll. Rally by itself doesn't cut it against a single player, yet alone more than 1. Vigor is an absolute must for any skilled Stamina NB to be effective without a dedicated healer unless he's using a Gank from stealth and run build.

I play all classes. My main is dk rank 36. My nb is stam since the begining far before the buff, rank 13. i dont have vigor and i know the price when i enter a fight. if i cant put enough pressure on enemy to put it down, I will die if I fail to escape. Fair enough. Call me unskilled or unexperienced if you like. For healing i'm relying on rally and siphoning at obviously huge cost for my mana pool. Once again fair enough.

Leandor

sphane wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I advise to check what you accuse others off before making a fool out of yourself.

Well, clap clap clap.

Read carrefully again. Maybe your advices might be suitable for yourself and your agressivity.

Oh I read it. You proposed to remove vigor, green dragon blood and all healing spells for stamplar from game because stamina builds are not supposed to be able to heal themselves. Right?

You secreting out nightblades was your main mistake. The class IS build around not having a good self heal ability, you are right in that one. Seeing that every nightblade (except for those running in a zerg/blob spamming steel tornado and occasionally fear) in pvp runs either vigor or 2H for rally gives a precise indication on the viability of that stance.

omg... i'm just talking about vigor. A stam nb should be forced to use siphoning tree skills or a resto staff or 2h rally : and as stam nb this would have a cost that would bring balance. A stam dk should have to rely on gdb but this has a heavy cost too and is not so powerfull because you cant go too low to avoid execution. Same kind of things for a stam templar. dk and temp dont have escape, so having a self heal is justified even as stam but with a cost.

you want to burst and survive as nb : ambush surprise attack fear cloak and vigor : what else ? oh sherry on the cake equip one mace. Without vigor you would pay the price for your high damage capability.

so yes i think removing vigor will bring more balance.

Stamina NB Primary defense (Roll Dodge) is getting a huge nerf next patch. Without access to a reliable *Stamina* based heal the class is going to become even easier to kill than it already is for skilled players.

Siphoning Trees and Resto staff are only useful for a *Magicka* nightblade not a Stamina nightblade.

You say you play a Stamina nightblade but you're either incredibly unskilled/unexperienced with it or you're just making that up. The class is not complete without a heal as there is nothing a Stamina NB can do to prevent taking damage while he is attacking or when he is hit by the host of abilities that go through dodge roll. Rally by itself doesn't cut it against a single player, yet alone more than 1. Vigor is an absolute must for any skilled Stamina NB to be effective without a dedicated healer unless he's using a Gank from stealth and run build.

I play all classes. My main is dk rank 36. My nb is stam since the begining far before the buff, rank 13. i dont have vigor and i know the price when i enter a fight. if i cant put enough pressure on enemy to put it down, I will die if I fail to escape. Fair enough. Call me unskilled or unexperienced if you like. For healing i'm relying on rally and siphoning at obviously huge cost for my mana pool. Once again fair enough.

Is that Alliance war rank 36/13 or character level 36/13?

sphane

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

sphane wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I advise to check what you accuse others off before making a fool out of yourself.

Well, clap clap clap.

Read carrefully again. Maybe your advices might be suitable for yourself and your agressivity.

Oh I read it. You proposed to remove vigor, green dragon blood and all healing spells for stamplar from game because stamina builds are not supposed to be able to heal themselves. Right?

You secreting out nightblades was your main mistake. The class IS build around not having a good self heal ability, you are right in that one. Seeing that every nightblade (except for those running in a zerg/blob spamming steel tornado and occasionally fear) in pvp runs either vigor or 2H for rally gives a precise indication on the viability of that stance.

omg... i'm just talking about vigor. A stam nb should be forced to use siphoning tree skills or a resto staff or 2h rally : and as stam nb this would have a cost that would bring balance. A stam dk should have to rely on gdb but this has a heavy cost too and is not so powerfull because you cant go too low to avoid execution. Same kind of things for a stam templar. dk and temp dont have escape, so having a self heal is justified even as stam but with a cost.

you want to burst and survive as nb : ambush surprise attack fear cloak and vigor : what else ? oh sherry on the cake equip one mace. Without vigor you would pay the price for your high damage capability.

so yes i think removing vigor will bring more balance.

Stamina NB Primary defense (Roll Dodge) is getting a huge nerf next patch. Without access to a reliable *Stamina* based heal the class is going to become even easier to kill than it already is for skilled players.

Siphoning Trees and Resto staff are only useful for a *Magicka* nightblade not a Stamina nightblade.

You say you play a Stamina nightblade but you're either incredibly unskilled/unexperienced with it or you're just making that up. The class is not complete without a heal as there is nothing a Stamina NB can do to prevent taking damage while he is attacking or when he is hit by the host of abilities that go through dodge roll. Rally by itself doesn't cut it against a single player, yet alone more than 1. Vigor is an absolute must for any skilled Stamina NB to be effective without a dedicated healer unless he's using a Gank from stealth and run build.

I play all classes. My main is dk rank 36. My nb is stam since the begining far before the buff, rank 13. i dont have vigor and i know the price when i enter a fight. if i cant put enough pressure on enemy to put it down, I will die if I fail to escape. Fair enough. Call me unskilled or unexperienced if you like. For healing i'm relying on rally and siphoning at obviously huge cost for my mana pool. Once again fair enough.

Is that Alliance war rank 36/13 or character level 36/13?

Well, being sarcastic will not bring anything more... So let's be logical : remove vigor or unlock it at rank 1 if you think that having the most powerfull damage dealing combined with the most powerfull self heal is something balanced.

Leandor

I was not sarcastic, it was an honest question. I guess it is answered with your reply anyways.

The most powerful damage dealing, especially in view of the nirnhoned changes, is a magicka based class using proximity in combination with a gap closer. Magicka based classes have access to self healing by restoration staff. So what you say is already effective in game and has nothing to do with vigor.

"The most powerful self heal" is only powerful because it has an AoE heal functionality that stacks. If you regard it as a single target heal, I regain 10k health over 5 seconds with a stamblade with 3500 weapon damage and 21k stamina. While not being the best possible equipment, it is right there in the upper echelons. The single target healing output by a resto staff user is higher than that.

Single target (with an option of group heal at substantially higher cost) and no stacking from different casters. The ability itself is needed and not overpowered if reduced to that.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Or we could avoid the sarcastic knee-jerk response and just get the reasonable middle ground change: Rank 5 and (hopefully) a nerf to stacking and/or AE cap

GNRNCSBLSS

Garion wrote: »

To start, I will say I am totally opposed to this change. There are two reasons for this:

• Incentives and rewards for PvP are already lacking, this change only reduces these further to benefit PvErs who don't want to spend any time in PvP.
• The skill is very strong and opening it up to most of Cyrodiil is going to tip the meta in favour of zergs even more.

It is clear that Zenimax intends to go through with this change, which I consider unfortunate, but they are casual caterers (and always have been) and so the argument in point one will get us nowhere.

With that said we have to look to point two and attempt to resolve that problem because evidently this skill is going to become available to everyone very soon. We have already seen a rise in the steel tornado zerg meta which a lot of PvPers who don't like to zerg it up with 24+ man raids consider ridiculous. If vigor is unlocked for everyone and his mother, these same steel tornado spammers will be gifted with a very strong heal that also heals their group. As more people get access to it, not only will characters with the strongest AOE DPS but they will also suddenly have access to a very strong AOE heal. The steel tornado spamming zergs will become even more difficult to kill, which is frankly ridiculous.

So what do I suggest should happen instead? Well, for a start I think this skill should be removed from the alliance war line altogether and replaced with something else that can be at rank 10 (suggestions welcome). It was not very clever of Zenimax to lock one of the only stamina heals behind an alliance war grind - it should never have happened in the first place.

Secondly, this should be changed to a self heal. This is the most important thing. You can keep it in the alliance war tree if you really must, but ZOS I implore you not to keep this skill as an AOE heal. Keep it as a HoT, keep it at its current values, but make it single (self) targeted. This will prevent the issue of zergs becoming even more stronger with 90% of their damage dealers suddenly becoming healers also.

My personal suggestion would be to change the increased healing morph of bone shield (in the undaunted skill line) to offer a small physical shield and some healing - making it the stamina equivalent of healing ward (although with marginally less healing, as it also offers a group buff of increased healing for group members).

Of course I would love to hear everyone's suggestions as to what alternatives there are - but one thing is clear (to me at least) an AOE heal is a bad idea.

Obligatory @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_RichLambert (because I know you actually read threads!) I was also shocked to find out that it seems Eric Wrobel does not seem to have a forum account... well "shocked" is the wrong word... disappointed but not surprised is probably a better way of putting it. Anyway, I digress..

Couple things...

There's a reason vigor is being moved to rank 5, do you actually know why? Likely not, considering this entire post, but ill tell you: It requires 6,918,400 Alliance Points to unlock vigor right now.

Not sure how many hours a day you play, obviously more than the vast majority players, but lets do a little math.

At most, the average player will gain 30K AP points a day, assuming they work/ go to school, have a family, have homework, etc, most will play 2-3 hours a day, I'm talking about 90% of all ESO players here.

So 30K AP a day would equal to 230.6 days. More than 7 and a half months. But for your sake, ill even round it down to 7 months because sometimes you'll get over 30K AP a day. So now we're at 7 entire months.

And keep in mind, this isn't 7 months of getting on for an hour and ganking a couple dudes... no. This is 7 months of solid 2-3 hours every day following a very organized group/zerg that you can only generally find in a very organized guild. Extreme grinding essentially.

So in reality... you're claiming that doing all of that is completely justifiable for the only good stamina heal? I mean the other option is Rally, which offers a poor-to-mediocre HoT which actually loses out on the biggest heal if you cast it again.

No dude, lmao, no. It's not realistic for 90% of players.

However, while I love the fact that they're moving vigor down, I do think rank 5 is too low, if it were up to me, I would move caltrops down to 5, and vigor to 6, or caltrop to 7, but definitely vigor to 6.

Additionally, not sure at all where you're playing, but literally no one at all uses steel tornado in PvP, I've seen it maybe once, if that. That's just a straight lie, don't lie, not cool.

On the other hand, I like your idea about making vigor a self heal only, I'm in support of that.

sphane

Leandor wrote: »

I was not sarcastic, it was an honest question. I guess it is answered with your reply anyways.

The most powerful damage dealing, especially in view of the nirnhoned changes, is a magicka based class using proximity in combination with a gap closer. Magicka based classes have access to self healing by restoration staff. So what you say is already effective in game and has nothing to do with vigor.

"The most powerful self heal" is only powerful because it has an AoE heal functionality that stacks. If you regard it as a single target heal, I regain 10k health over 5 seconds with a stamblade with 3500 weapon damage and 21k stamina. While not being the best possible equipment, it is right there in the upper echelons. The single target healing output by a resto staff user is higher than that.

Single target (with an option of group heal at substantially higher cost) and no stacking from different casters. The ability itself is needed and not overpowered if reduced to that.

I'm talking about the state of the game as it is now. the nirn change combined with the damage reduction will probably put stam and mana damages on close line. But hard to say what all changes combined will create in term of balance/imbalance and maybe the conditions that made skills like vigor legit will be true again. btw they will change proxy too for being less effective in 1v1 as far as i understood.

Your stam pool is very low. you can easily achieve 28-30k and with good crit which is the case of all stam players the tick of vigor can be insane for more than 20k in 5 sec. and this is without cp... imagine now what it gives on a dk who press igneous shield before vigor.

Leandor

Show me a non imperial nightblade with 28k stamina. EDIT: Provided the stamblade uses drink instead of food. With food, the 28k may be possible.

My personal experience is the opposite. While stamina gets higher burst, any fight between two prepared participants has magicka on top. By "prepared" I mean any situation where it is not a gank from stealth.

Ezareth

Leandor wrote: »

Show me a non imperial nightblade with 28k stamina. EDIT: Provided the stamblade uses drink instead of food. With food, the 28k may be possible.

My personal experience is the opposite. While stamina gets higher burst, any fight between two prepared participants has magicka on top. By "prepared" I mean any situation where it is not a gank from stealth.

I agree. I only have 19K stamina(with drink) in full legendary gear and if I tried boosting that any further I would lose health and end back up in 1-shot range.

Zsymon

Especially with the coming changes to block and dodge roll, stamina builds NEED Vigor, they would not be viable without Vigor, and those people would have to respec to a magicka build. Vigor is the only thing that will make stamina builds viable in the coming update.