If Vigor is moved to rank 5...

Garion

To start, I will say I am totally opposed to this change. There are two reasons for this:

• Incentives and rewards for PvP are already lacking, this change only reduces these further to benefit PvErs who don't want to spend any time in PvP.
• The skill is very strong and opening it up to most of Cyrodiil is going to tip the meta in favour of zergs even more.

It is clear that Zenimax intends to go through with this change, which I consider unfortunate, but they are casual caterers (and always have been) and so the argument in point one will get us nowhere.

With that said we have to look to point two and attempt to resolve that problem because evidently this skill is going to become available to everyone very soon. We have already seen a rise in the steel tornado zerg meta which a lot of PvPers who don't like to zerg it up with 24+ man raids consider ridiculous. If vigor is unlocked for everyone and his mother, these same steel tornado spammers will be gifted with a very strong heal that also heals their group. As more people get access to it, not only will characters with the strongest AOE DPS but they will also suddenly have access to a very strong AOE heal. The steel tornado spamming zergs will become even more difficult to kill, which is frankly ridiculous.

So what do I suggest should happen instead? Well, for a start I think this skill should be removed from the alliance war line altogether and replaced with something else that can be at rank 10 (suggestions welcome). It was not very clever of Zenimax to lock one of the only stamina heals behind an alliance war grind - it should never have happened in the first place.

Secondly, this should be changed to a self heal. This is the most important thing. You can keep it in the alliance war tree if you really must, but ZOS I implore you not to keep this skill as an AOE heal. Keep it as a HoT, keep it at its current values, but make it single (self) targeted. This will prevent the issue of zergs becoming even more stronger with 90% of their damage dealers suddenly becoming healers also.

My personal suggestion would be to change the increased healing morph of bone shield (in the undaunted skill line) to offer a small physical shield and some healing - making it the stamina equivalent of healing ward (although with marginally less healing, as it also offers a group buff of increased healing for group members).

Of course I would love to hear everyone's suggestions as to what alternatives there are - but one thing is clear (to me at least) an AOE heal is a bad idea.

Obligatory @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_RichLambert (because I know you actually read threads!) I was also shocked to find out that it seems Eric Wrobel does not seem to have a forum account... well "shocked" is the wrong word... disappointed but not surprised is probably a better way of putting it. Anyway, I digress..

Sanct16

+1

agreed

Baumlaus

agreed aswell;)

Cathexis

The problem isn't an aoe heal for Stam users.

The problem is aoe skills in general.

If they balanced PvP in favour of single target attacks, lag would drop tremendously and zerg balls would be less efficient.

The end result would be diffuse combat.

Garion

Cathexis wrote: »

The problem isn't an aoe heal for Stam users.

The problem is aoe skills in general.

If they balanced PvP in favour of single target attacks, lag would drop tremendously and zerg balls would be less efficient.

The end result would be diffuse combat.

Realistically that is never going to happen, so we need to look at this change specifically rather than speculate about how things would be if AOE was removed from the game entirely. In any event, I personally think removal of AOE would make for a rather boring PvP experience because it is AOE that often helps in fighting much larger numbers (although of course you can do this with single target... but at a much slower pace).

pjwb16_ESO

Agreed

tengri

PvP crowd just got a whole new DLC incoming. High "incentives and rewards" and risk of dying included (read: permission to randomly steal other ppl's work/grind/stones).
You better dont say anything but a big fat thank you for the next year...

Garion

tengri wrote: »

PvP crowd just got a whole new DLC incoming. High "incentives and rewards" and risk of dying included (read: permission to randomly steal other ppl's work/grind/stones).
You better dont say anything but a big fat thank you for the next year...

Which also offers significant appeal to PvErs and will lose its appeal once the FOTM gear becomes readily available on the open market. It's a nice update, yes, and it does offer some reward for PvP... However it has nothing to do with my other point about Vigor making zergs stronger. So take your typical PvEr QQ elsewhere please!

Vaiku

+1

I don't mind it being Rank 5 and staying in Alliance War skill line, but that's because I play stam builds and pvp alot.
However, even as a stam user who's desparately been working towards vigor recently... I agree that it should not be AOE. give the zergs a few purgers and it'll just be stupid.

ThyIronFist

+1 from me as well.

kojou

Cathexis wrote: »

The problem isn't an aoe heal for Stam users.

The problem is aoe skills in general.

If they balanced PvP in favour of single target attacks, lag would drop tremendously and zerg balls would be less efficient.

The end result would be diffuse combat.

+1 for reducing AOE damage attacks.

I am ok with making vigor single target as well.

What I would really like to see is a significant increase in cost for AOE damage skills in general even if only in PVP. Maybe even add the similar logic as bolt escape... first tornado/impulse is normal cost, 2nd is 100% more, etc.

QuebraRegra

I don't know jack, but from what I have seen so far this would seem to be potentially troubling.

What is/was the rational to lower access to VIGOR? Ultimately, everyone who continues to play will get it at some point, and all of the tactics/misuse described will come to roost, but why rush it?

I'll get access to it, but I don't really feel like I've earned it.

Vis

Zos is not taking anything away from you by lowering the requirements.

Don't be afraid to share. The competition will make you better.

JacksonCarter13

I agree with the op it shouldn't be changed and its dumb to do so.

Garion

Vis wrote: »

Zos is not taking anything away from you by lowering the requirements.

Don't be afraid to share. The competition will make you better.

I don't use it, so the fact it is being lowered bothers me far less than the fact that making it so accessible will empower the Zerg as their healing output will increase considerably without any real penalty to their damage. This is not a good thing.

Leandor

Violently opposing this. Do not ever move this to Undaunted line, simply because it is not useful there. The content that will increase the Undaunted line is exclusively group content and as such it does not have a need for a "single target heal for stamina DDs". Groups are supposed to consist of a balanced choice of participants, this change would only make the "4 DD bomb through mechanics" meta be even more preferable.

While I agree with the choice to make it single target, I would do that only for the increased healing morph and the base ability. Make the second morph have double stamina cost but the same group heal functionality as it has now. Make it skill line rank 5, if you absolutely have to (that is at most two weeks of play, even for very casual pvp), but do not ever consider moving it to Undaunted.

Garion

Leandor wrote: »

Violently opposing this. Do not ever move this to Undaunted line, simply because it is not useful there. The content that will increase the Undaunted line is exclusively group content and as such it does not have a need for a "single target heal for stamina DDs". Groups are supposed to consist of a balanced choice of participants, this change would only make the "4 DD bomb through mechanics" meta be even more preferable.

While I agree with the choice to make it single target, I would do that only for the increased healing morph and the base ability. Make the second morph have double stamina cost but the same group heal functionality as it has now. Make it skill line rank 5, if you absolutely have to (that is at most two weeks of play, even for very casual pvp), but do not ever consider moving it to Undaunted.

I am totally fine with it staying where it is provided it is changed to single target. My main concern is the fact it is an AOE heal and having an easily accessible stamina AOE heal is a bad idea.

With that said I don't think you read my post properly, because I did indicate that if it were moved to undaunted I would suggest a change to a bone shield morph to offer some self healing while at the same time offering the same - or similar - benefits to the group, so it would technically be a buff to that skill. It would remain a viable group buff. With thay said it could arguably make the skill too strong so I am definitely open to suggestions.

In any case my main point is - Zenimax please, whatever you do with this skill, make it single target!

OdinForge

I agree.

There is a problem with a major lack of stamina based healing options though. I think they could add other single target healing skills in various trees to compensate, but vigor should have stayed 10. It's got a lot of utility, a "powerful" reward for reaching that rank.

Leandor

Garion wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Violently opposing this. Do not ever move this to Undaunted line, simply because it is not useful there. The content that will increase the Undaunted line is exclusively group content and as such it does not have a need for a "single target heal for stamina DDs". Groups are supposed to consist of a balanced choice of participants, this change would only make the "4 DD bomb through mechanics" meta be even more preferable.

While I agree with the choice to make it single target, I would do that only for the increased healing morph and the base ability. Make the second morph have double stamina cost but the same group heal functionality as it has now. Make it skill line rank 5, if you absolutely have to (that is at most two weeks of play, even for very casual pvp), but do not ever consider moving it to Undaunted.

I am totally fine with it staying where it is provided it is changed to single target. My main concern is the fact it is an AOE heal and having an easily accessible stamina AOE heal is a bad idea.

With that said I don't think you read my post properly, because I did indicate that if it were moved to undaunted I would suggest a change to a bone shield morph to offer some self healing while at the same time offering the same - or similar - benefits to the group, so it would technically be a buff to that skill. It would remain a viable group buff. With thay said it could arguably make the skill too strong so I am definitely open to suggestions.

In any case my main point is - Zenimax please, whatever you do with this skill, make it single target!

I have read it, but as a player who has minimal interest if any at all to do PvE group content, the change to Undaunted - no matter how many added benefits there are - would effectively reduce me to 2H, a thing that I have refused to do from beginning. In fact it is the only weapon line I have not taken to 50.

I consider the 2H line to be a core problem in that it gives all utility (shield, damage buff, healing) while at the same time providing the second highest damage output of all weapon lines - a fact that in my mind makes it nigh on impossible to balance this. In my mind, the self heal capability should be included in the one commonly available line that actually is limited to stamina builds: medium armor. Instead of the evade active ability, the rally self heal/weapon buff should be included there. Switch it around, if need be to give 2H another defensive option next to Brawler.

But this is a different discussion than the topic at hand. I do consider Vigor to be rightly placed in the alliance war skill lines. The pvp aspect has a much higher requirement for self-sustainability than the pve aspects of the game, if you exclude the "I solo everything" mentality that some pve oriented players exhibit and is base of much of the hate between pve and pvp players.

I also agree that alliance rank 10 is OTT for it, precisely for being such a necessary asset in pvp. As I have written, a workable compromise in my mind would be to make the base ability single target. Then you should have the option to either increase its healing (while still being single target, resolving vigor) or to double (or even triple) its stamina cost for attaining a group support heal (echoing vigor), which would have the side benefit to actually make the second morph desirable.

Derra

The only problem i see with vigor is that it´s a hot that stacks with itself when cast from multiple sources. That´s what is broken about it. They should either reduce the target cap to like 3 - or make the heal not stackable from multiple casters. I´d prefer the 2nd option personally.

Vis

Garion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Zos is not taking anything away from you by lowering the requirements.

Don't be afraid to share. The competition will make you better.

I don't use it, so the fact it is being lowered bothers me far less than the fact that making it so accessible will empower the Zerg as their healing output will increase considerably without any real penalty to their damage. This is not a good thing.

So only high ranked zergs should have access to it. Though really, here's a news flash:

Zergs have dedicated Healers. Their dps do not spam vigor.

eliisra

Vis wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Zos is not taking anything away from you by lowering the requirements.

Don't be afraid to share. The competition will make you better.

I don't use it, so the fact it is being lowered bothers me far less than the fact that making it so accessible will empower the Zerg as their healing output will increase considerably without any real penalty to their damage. This is not a good thing.

So only high ranked zergs should have access to it. Though really, here's a news flash:

Zergs have dedicated Healers. Their dps do not spam vigor.

Wrong, do you raid with Skyrim casual pugs or something? Every *** in a Steel Tornado + caltrops + camo hunter zergs spams Vigor as soon as they get it. Every stamina player in organized raids uses it, as soon as unlocked. It's the best AoE heal in the game, only total scrubs are like "I'm not a healer so I wont slot it". You also get to keep your max dps weapon+skills pretty much unaffected and still use Vigor, unlike Restoration Staff healers.

The more guys unlocking Vigor, the less healers you need in a full raid. The less dead weight magicka users you need in a raid. Can invite even more game breaking 100% armor pen AoE dps, because Vigor stacking heals for insane numbers.

+1 to the topic.

This is a skill that buffs the worse form of zerg blobs, nothing else.

Give DW/Bow users a good self-heal instead.

aco5712

can you guys imagine......

8~ stam DKs in one group (saying a group is 16-24)

Their job is to hit igneous and then vigor and then steel tornado. Rinse and repeat. With the decreased dmg coming in 1.7, this could the beginning of DK healers O.O if a group stacks tight enough on crown, templars wont be needed xD

Joy_Division

Raid groups have dedicated healers. They need their DPS to DPS.

This change will only make unorganized get a bit residual healing as pugs will be the beneficiaries of more heals.

BigTone

Unfortunately I see 1.7 increasing the effectiveness of the zerg, with the Vigor changes being at the heart of it.

septvestige

The problem is the gap between the older players and the newer ones. Just because you were there from the beginning and you had chance to exploit the early versions unbalanced rewards, class skill system, - god its been over a year and it still unbalanced as hell I can imagine how it was in the early releases and when they try to fix this (by nerfing and removing "i win buttons") people rage - you shouldn't have that much advantage over a newer player.

PvP should be based on experience, reflexes, good thinking. Maybe you could slauther a newer player any time just because you have more battle experience but with skills like these it's OP.
I'm not a pvp guy but if I'm in any kind of competiton and I have a large advantage over my competitors rules have to change. This is a game! The goal is playing and having fun not to destroy your opponent who had zero chance from the moment they stumbled upon you on the battlefield.

I agree rewards have to matter, you deserve good rewards for your awesome achievement and time spent with pvp but not OP skill rewards which just increase the gap between you and a newer player.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Vigor needs to be dropped down, and have a reasonable AE cap implemented. I actually think that self + 3 targets would be the ideal.

It's current AE cap combined with the huge AE radius and low cost is helping zergs way too much

tonemd

tengri wrote: »

Here's some gizzards and chicken skins.
You better dont say anything but a big fat thank you for the next year...

Fixed.

On topic:

...then I won't have to run two hand. I really wanna go back to S&B and Bow but I just...can't quit Rally.

k2blader

"Casual caterers" my a**. You most likely have way more CPs, better gear, and more importantly much more experience than any casuals. So I kinda laugh that you aren't going to have the advantage of Vigor over them either. Your skill should see you through, no?

Garion

k2blader wrote: »

"Casual caterers" my a**. You most likely have way more CPs, better gear, and more importantly much more experience than any casuals. So I kinda laugh that you aren't going to have the advantage of Vigor over them either. Your skill should see you through, no?

I don't even use vigor, I am happy for it to be unlocked at low levels, but I think it should be a self and single targeted skill .

manny254

tengri wrote: »

PvP crowd just got a whole new DLC incoming. High "incentives and rewards" and risk of dying included (read: permission to randomly steal other ppl's work/grind/stones).
You better dont say anything but a big fat thank you for the next year...

Please look at this to understand why a lot of pvp players think it should stay at 10. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Alliance_Points


From this you can see that AW 10 requires apx 7 million ap. Now look at the rank requirements for the higher levels. For the pvp players, in the big picture 7 million is nothing.