Confirmed (this is the reason DAOC AvA worked NOT so much in ESO)!! Reason people want BGs SOLVED!

JoyEnergiser

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Doomraven wrote: »

Ewww, please no boring-ass instanced PvP. BGs are so lame.

Cyrodill is instanced.

Try again.

Nooblet

joshisanonymous wrote: »

@Nooblet‌

That's more like a list of things that aren't exactly the same as in DAoC, and some of those things even are the same. For instance, there were certainly gap closers like charge (or even just det5 tanks that were at times basically un-CC-able). That has no bearing on whether positioning is important, though. Or listing things like animation canceling: I'm really not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm not really sure what much of that list has to do with anything.

I actually like the mechanics of ESO quite a bit but, more to the point: having different mechanics does not automatically lead to a failure to create equally engrossing PvP. If that were the case, there'd be no hope in playing good PvP again unless someone made literally the exact same game as DAoC, perhaps with updated graphics. I'm pretty sure this is the goal of Camelot Unchained, but that sounds pretty boring to me. I just want that same feeling, it doesn't have to literally be the same game to achieve that. And I get that feeling from ESO.

I will say that I was hoping for the terrain to blend in to adjacent PvE zones a bit better, too. There's some snow up along the north I guess, but I never start feeling like I'm getting close to Morrowind or something. However, I still think this is pretty minor. I mean, people spent 95% of their time in Emain in DAoC anyway. That changed in NF, but both worked, IMO.

What I posted was reasons I believe to be why ESO PvP doesn't work as well as DAoC PvP did.. which is exactly what the topic is about.

The combat mechanics in ESO promote 1 strategy.. stacking in a ball and charging together, spamming AE dps, AE ultimates, AE healing, AE CC.

A very temporary movement speed/cc immune buff is VERY different from a modern day "gap closer", and you can actually prepare for and react against. It has EVERYTHING to do with positioning being important. In DAoC you had to be completely aware of your surroundings, and pre-kite tanks coming at you, and try not to be too close to the casters in your group or you're more likely to get interupted or CCd by an AoE.

Of course it doesn't have to be exactly the same.. However I listed some combat mechanics and other features of DAoC that I feel ESO really dropped the ball on in comparison. I'm not sure how you think that doesn't relate to the topic at hand.. but ok.

RazzPitazz

Nooblet wrote: »

The combat mechanics in ESO promote 1 strategy.. stacking in a ball and charging together, spamming AE dps, AE ultimates, AE healing, AE

I do not understand how this strategy is all enompassing. If this tactic is used shouldnt the counter be to spread out and drop AE on the group? Which in turn causes the enemy group to spread out? Am I missing something?

Nijjion

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

The combat mechanics in ESO promote 1 strategy.. stacking in a ball and charging together, spamming AE dps, AE ultimates, AE healing, AE

I do not understand how this strategy is all enompassing. If this tactic is used shouldnt the counter be to spread out and drop AE on the group? Which in turn causes the enemy group to spread out? Am I missing something?

This cheap tactic was birthed from GW2 which had a target cap of 5.

What happens is when you are grouped in a ball and aoe is casted it will hit 5 people if it is cast again it will most likely not hit the same people again (though not impossible). Meaning the damage is spread out.

So now we have this instance of 1 zerg that is spread out and 1 zerg that is balled/'turtled' up. The turtle group moves together attacking as 1 meaning 1-5vs24... who's going to win that? The 5 who can only attack 5-6 of the 24 but the 24 can attack all 5... how is that fair and creates a very cheap tactic imo.

Edit - To OP I think it's common sense to most knowledgable pvp mmo players how to fix the game... which you would expect from mmo devs especially lead by someone who worked on DAoC but I think they are purposely making it bad for some reason.

Taonnor

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

Nooblet wrote: »

The combat mechanics in ESO promote 1 strategy.. stacking in a ball and charging together, spamming AE dps, AE ultimates, AE healing, AE

I do not understand how this strategy is all enompassing. If this tactic is used shouldnt the counter be to spread out and drop AE on the group? Which in turn causes the enemy group to spread out? Am I missing something?

This tactic will not work. We tested it and come to the conclusion, that the turtling tactic at the moment can not be countered. One reason are the aoe caps on skills. Second reason the caltrops exploit, so that you cannot deal dmg with siege weapons.

Yasha

anonymousshadow613b16_ESO wrote: »

I want what WAR had. RVR (similar to cyrodil) AND Scenarios. I enjoy them both.

Yep, me too. Scenarios (basically battlegrounds) have a different feel and gameplay than RvR even if you get small group battles in RvR. Both are fun in their own way.

Kililin

Realm Pride is major.
also
Fighting versus Firbolgs, celts and Lurikeens with Guild Insignia is very VERY different to fighting versus the other slightly browner guys...

Docmandu

Just one side note... BG / Battlegrounds means different things to different people.

On one side you have the:
- WoW Battleground / WAR Scenario / RIFT Warfront style / SWTOR Warzone, ie. short duration instanced mini match, with or without an objective with a limited number of players. You queue up for it and get put into an instance with group members or random people.

And you have the DAoC style Battleground, which is just a map you can port to, non-instanced, allows as many people in there as the server can handle, is not time limited and keeps on running forever. (basically a bit like Cyrodiil, but usually smaller and doesn't end after 90 days). DAoC has a couple of different battlegrounds for different level ranges (ie. there's a new BG every 5 levels)

Nijjion

Problem is the mentality of gamers these days as well.

Why do guilds have to run around with 24 man zergs... sure it's the group cap but run around as a 4 or 8 man and find other 4-8 mans. Personally I'm partial to 8 being meta being daoc hipster and all.

No need for BGs.

Gisgo

Omg Thidranki!

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Leesha wrote: »

Classes weren't balanced because each class had their own role and no one complained about "NERF CLERICS NOW THEY ARE TOO OP CAUSE I CAN"T KILL THEM 1v1!!111!!!!".

I'm sorry, I don't mean to keep posting here as I find the topic of this thread pretty irrelevant, but people absolutely complained about classes all the time in DAoC. In fact, they complained about Clerics even. The internet was still the internet, after all.

People complain and they coplained about alot of classes in daoc during the years its also true that there was never such a huge inbalance in DAOC as the ones in ESO (1 class, no matter how powerfull, could never take more than 2-3 players at the time, in eso you have DK's wiping raids).

The fact is that DAOC group or solo play needed alot of coordination and reflexes added on top of your character build. It wasnt enough to play the OP class to own everyone in sight, you needed to know how to play it and it wasnt as easy as it sounds. I keep repeating ESO fighting sistem seems to be a joke, you dont have positionals, you dont have interupts (dont give me the "you can bash" excuse, that is very sittuational at best), you dont have sinergies between skills and flexibility in building (you cant afford to slot them), you dont have to manage your cds and cc break and the list could go on...even more...the "best" builds atm are the faceroll builds since you cant reliably cast consecutie skills (nor have the option in many cases) with all the lag spikes, freezes and huge latency. There was NO CLASS EVER in DAOC that could be succesfull by simply mashing 2 buttons.

Ohh, DAOC also allowed diversity, ESO barely gives you any skills to use and many are broken/useless, you are preaty much forced in using the same few skills with small variations...you can mix them on your bars though, make it feel like its a different build :P

Yshaar

You should delete this thread. Everything is wrong from the misleading title to the content of your post.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Nijjion wrote: »

Problem is the mentality of gamers these days as well.

Why do guilds have to run around with 24 man zergs... sure it's the group cap but run around as a 4 or 8 man and find other 4-8 mans. Personally I'm partial to 8 being meta being daoc hipster and all.

No need for BGs.

Give them the means and they will abuse it. DAOC seen its share of zergs and even the "esteemed pvp-ers" employed this tactic at times. They also abused alot of cheat mechanics, one worth mentioning was the radar that allowed them to see any visible enemy as a dot on a minimap. People work like that...if they do not remove the aoe cap zerging is what many (if not everyone) will do sooner or later, the choo choo trains are already in Cyrodiil and nothing can stand in their way..caltrops or no caltrops

bitaken

The biggest difference between ESO and DAOC is that you don't have to travel (and wait for teleport) to switch from defense - to offense.

People forget that if you wanted to stop defending your own frontier and attack say Hibernia's frontier - then you had to go to a teleport pad - tell the mages where you wanted to go - and wait for you and your group(s) to get there. Then, if the enemy wanted to defend (oh yeah they got a warning you were attacking since a guild in an alliance of guilds claimed the keep you just attacked and they were told how many of you were killing their guards) they had to A) stop what they were doing form a group C) Port back from whatever frontier they were in D) Travel time from their entry to their own frontier to their keep.

Here, we wait for fires on keeps and then travel to nearest keep and bam you have combat or offense and defense. That requires no co-ordination no communication just a zone wide warning that X keep is under siege - and the zerg and mass of people just move there trying to collect points.

If the Alliances had to travel to the enemy alliance's frontier - well it would not be so easy to move the zerg from point A to point B.

I remember the best and fastest way to break up a zerg was to have a co -ordinated group go attack the zerging realms frontier. So if the middies had 4 groups running together we would go take blendrake. That would force them to come and defend their own frontier (not all of the zerg would) and we would see the zerg breakup.

We do not have that mechanic here - so therein lies the problem of 4 FG's running together to oversmash anything in their path - and no real hard counter to it.

I would love this travel mechanic and the actual tactical keep defense and offense to make its way into this game. They made it one big zone and it's a very nice zone - but the reality is that it greatly encourages 4 groups of 24 to run together - and be the elephant on the "campaign".

thelg

It can be

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Leesha wrote: »

Classes weren't balanced because each class had their own role and no one complained about "NERF CLERICS NOW THEY ARE TOO OP CAUSE I CAN"T KILL THEM 1v1!!111!!!!".

I'm sorry, I don't mean to keep posting here as I find the topic of this thread pretty irrelevant, but people absolutely complained about classes all the time in DAoC. In fact, they complained about Clerics even. The internet was still the internet, after all.

People complain and they coplained about alot of classes in daoc during the years its also true that there was never such a huge inbalance in DAOC as the ones in ESO (1 class, no matter how powerfull, could never take more than 2-3 players at the time, in eso you have DK's wiping raids).

The fact is that DAOC group or solo play needed alot of coordination and reflexes added on top of your character build. It wasnt enough to play the OP class to own everyone in sight, you needed to know how to play it and it wasnt as easy as it sounds. I keep repeating ESO fighting sistem seems to be a joke, you dont have positionals, you dont have interupts (dont give me the "you can bash" excuse, that is very sittuational at best), you dont have sinergies between skills and flexibility in building (you cant afford to slot them), you dont have to manage your cds and cc break and the list could go on...even more...the "best" builds atm are the faceroll builds since you cant reliably cast consecutie skills (nor have the option in many cases) with all the lag spikes, freezes and huge latency. There was NO CLASS EVER in DAOC that could be succesfull by simply mashing 2 buttons.

Ohh, DAOC also allowed diversity, ESO barely gives you any skills to use and many are broken/useless, you are preaty much forced in using the same few skills with small variations...you can mix them on your bars though, make it feel like its a different build :P

Thats just not true.

On Release as Smite cleric you could solo 5-6 people. Just mezz nuke mezz. As Archer on release you could kill off as many people as you wanted by doing the Shoot/stealth before arrow hits, shoot repeat trick. Lets not forget that for a few month you could chain mezz and aoe with instant aoe stun thrown in. The DAOC you remember is about 1 year post release. Oh wait I forgot 2h PA from stealth 1 shot kills AND you stay stealthed..

Later as SM with buffbot and high RR you could solo whole groups of noobs. As a cabalist you could do similar with 3-4.

Lets not wear rose coloured glasses here

Trenchfoot

Leesha wrote: »

thelg wrote: »

What DAOC had was Realm and Server loyalty and pride. This came from few things:

1. Unique classe/races
2. LONG PVE lvl grinding(we are talking 3 month on release if you were not exploiting) VR level are an absolute joke in comparison. People were invested into their character
3. Very strong class/grp dependency. You had to have a Healer, you had to have buffer, you had to have some sort of CC, you had to have some kind of speed. You knew people on your server because you had to.
4. You could not transfer servers or respec for that matter. Here in ESO we jump campaigns daily, does anyone even give a F?

This is why it was so popular and the reason people I played DAoC with (pre wow days) miss it. I hate pvp in current games but I did participate in pvp in DAoC. The loyalty was a huge factor and because it was a group effort, it wasn't an epeen contest. Classes weren't balanced because each class had their own role and no one complained about "NERF CLERICS NOW THEY ARE TOO OP CAUSE I CAN"T KILL THEM 1v1!!111!!!!".

The current pvp generation seems to want every class to have the exact same damage output, CC abilities, CC breaks and survivability. They don't want to work as a team unless it is a mass zerg for free points/honor/etc.

Oh I'm fine with differences between the classes, except when it comes to the DK. Whoever thought it was a good idea to give massive survivability, huge aoe damage and great cc to the same class must have been smoking something very potent.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

So this game is ESO not DAOC which is basically what you are saying.

jvargas150_ESO

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

So this game is ESO not DAOC which is basically what you are saying.

Thats pretty insightful..

Jacked82

daoc
ae mezz
ae cap
"hard" CC
AvA
BGs

Is there somewhere that new MMORPG (Massively multiplayer online role-playing game) players can look up all of the acronyms and slang that get thrown around in these forums? I realize that learning the terms of art is important to becoming a "member" of the culture...but I get lost reading through a lot of these posts.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Jacked82 wrote: »

daoc
ae mezz
ae cap
"hard" CC
AvA
BGs

Is there somewhere that new MMORPG (Massively multiplayer online role-playing game) players can look up all of the acronyms and slang that get thrown around in these forums? I realize that learning the terms of art is important to becoming a "member" of the culture...but I get lost reading through a lot of these posts.

AvA is ESO related.

Dark age of Camelot
(DAOC hard cc sounds silly, I'm hitting you so you can't cast)
Alliance vs alliance
Battleground

Nijjion

Trenchfoot wrote: »

Oh I'm fine with differences between the classes, except when it comes to the DK. Whoever thought it was a good idea to give massive survivability, huge aoe damage and great cc to the same class must have been smoking something very potent.

Haha yeah and the same goes with Sorcs and a blink with no cooldown... I told my friends who don't play ESO about that and they laughed and said no dev is that stupid to have a class with a blink with no cooldown.

LeCreaux

DAoC also had no control over "radar" hacking in RvR so eventually it became widespread. Groups ran around beelining to each other. Solo stealthers beelined to anybody visible and alone. There was a lot of good fun in DAoC, but you had to take the good with the bad.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

thelg wrote: »

It can be

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Leesha wrote: »

Classes weren't balanced because each class had their own role and no one complained about "NERF CLERICS NOW THEY ARE TOO OP CAUSE I CAN"T KILL THEM 1v1!!111!!!!".

I'm sorry, I don't mean to keep posting here as I find the topic of this thread pretty irrelevant, but people absolutely complained about classes all the time in DAoC. In fact, they complained about Clerics even. The internet was still the internet, after all.

People complain and they coplained about alot of classes in daoc during the years its also true that there was never such a huge inbalance in DAOC as the ones in ESO (1 class, no matter how powerfull, could never take more than 2-3 players at the time, in eso you have DK's wiping raids).

The fact is that DAOC group or solo play needed alot of coordination and reflexes added on top of your character build. It wasnt enough to play the OP class to own everyone in sight, you needed to know how to play it and it wasnt as easy as it sounds. I keep repeating ESO fighting sistem seems to be a joke, you dont have positionals, you dont have interupts (dont give me the "you can bash" excuse, that is very sittuational at best), you dont have sinergies between skills and flexibility in building (you cant afford to slot them), you dont have to manage your cds and cc break and the list could go on...even more...the "best" builds atm are the faceroll builds since you cant reliably cast consecutie skills (nor have the option in many cases) with all the lag spikes, freezes and huge latency. There was NO CLASS EVER in DAOC that could be succesfull by simply mashing 2 buttons.

Ohh, DAOC also allowed diversity, ESO barely gives you any skills to use and many are broken/useless, you are preaty much forced in using the same few skills with small variations...you can mix them on your bars though, make it feel like its a different build :P

Thats just not true.

On Release as Smite cleric you could solo 5-6 people. Just mezz nuke mezz. As Archer on release you could kill off as many people as you wanted by doing the Shoot/stealth before arrow hits, shoot repeat trick. Lets not forget that for a few month you could chain mezz and aoe with instant aoe stun thrown in. The DAOC you remember is about 1 year post release. Oh wait I forgot 2h PA from stealth 1 shot kills AND you stay stealthed..

Later as SM with buffbot and high RR you could solo whole groups of noobs. As a cabalist you could do similar with 3-4.

Lets not wear rose coloured glasses here

The key word here is "nubs". You could kill nubs even if outnumbered, sure, if no clue how to counter mez and no purge or any group tactic..and so on. On release people were still learning that why you could pull cheap tactics and win, i didnt play myself but my roomie from back then played ever since day 1..as for the 2h PA, i remember being able to 1 shot people with my sb but it was unstealthing me. When was this possible?

Yes, there were balance problems but none even close to how unbalanced ESO is,noone denies it but the devs were alot more responsive and the fixes were actualy working towards balancing the skills rather then clumsy patches to cover for frakcups. I also had lots of fun playing the underdog against the overpowered classes and got to kill them on ocasions, it was something achievable, in ESO there is just the hopeless feeling where you have 2 options: run or die.

joshisanonymous

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO wrote: »

The key word here is "nubs". You could kill nubs even if outnumbered, sure, if no clue how to counter mez and no purge or any group tactic..and so on. On release people were still learning that why you could pull cheap tactics and win, i didnt play myself but my roomie from back then played ever since day 1..as for the 2h PA, i remember being able to 1 shot people with my sb but it was unstealthing me. When was this possible?

Yes, there were balance problems but none even close to how unbalanced ESO is,noone denies it but the devs were alot more responsive and the fixes were actualy working towards balancing the skills rather then clumsy patches to cover for frakcups. I also had lots of fun playing the underdog against the overpowered classes and got to kill them on ocasions, it was something achievable, in ESO there is just the hopeless feeling where you have 2 options: run or die.

Pretty sure purge didn't exist at launch. These balance issues weren't purely about noobs getting owned because they didn't know what they were doing, just like that's not the entirety of the situation in ESO.