Confirmed (this is the reason DAOC AvA worked NOT so much in ESO)!! Reason people want BGs SOLVED!

jvargas150_ESO

Anyway another catchy title ftw...

Someone made a comment, that I thought was insightful.. Below

Borondir wrote: »

In daoc you had with the ae mezz, no ae cap, group speed and speed traps enough items to counter a zerg. And you had a group size of 8 and no raid size, only chatgroups. A zerg contained many groups but wasn't a whole group itself.

Seems like that would make a big difference..

Edit: Just noticed we do have a group speed.. just not so many speed traps..

Napkins wrote: »

Daoc had "hard" interupts and "hard" CC. This game has neither.
Also the pvp in daoc was based around 8v8, 3-4 (small man), or 1v1. Capturing keeps was never really used that much tbh aside from relic take/defends which were pretty epic. Guild vs Guild open field fighting were wildly competitive from release and fueled the game to the present day.

Different game is different

So ESO doesn't have all the mechanics that made AvA a success in DAoC?

That is disheartening.. what are these "hard" interrupts and CC you talk about?

See thats what everyone would like (all the we want BGs and Arena folks)

More of what you described 8v8, 3-4 (small man) or 1v1..

It seems if ESO had that, we wouldn't have so many post talking about we need BG/ARENA...

All we WANT IS WHAT DAoC HAD type of AvA!!

ESO please copy more DAoC type AvA!

Napkins

Daoc had "hard" interupts and "hard" CC. This game has neither.
Also the pvp in daoc was based around 8v8, 3-4 (small man), or 1v1. Capturing keeps was never really used that much tbh aside from relic take/defends which were pretty epic. Guild vs Guild open field fighting were wildly competitive from release and fueled the game to the present day.

Different game is different

jvargas150_ESO

Napkins wrote: »

Daoc had "hard" interupts and "hard" CC. This game has neither.
Also the pvp in daoc was based around 8v8, 3-4 (small man), or 1v1. Capturing keeps was never really used that much tbh aside from relic take/defends which were pretty epic. Guild vs Guild open field fighting were wildly competitive from release and fueled the game to the present day.

Different game is different

So ESO doesn't have all the mechanics that made AvA a success in DAoC?

That is disheartening.. what are these "hard" interrupts and CC you talk about?

See thats what everyone would like (all the we want BGs and Arena folks)

More of what you described 8v8, 3-4 (small man) or 1v1..

It seems if ESO had that, we wouldn't have so many post talking about we need BG/ARENA...

All we WANT IS WHAT DAoC HAD type of AvA!!

ShadowWolf613

I want what WAR had. RVR (similar to cyrodil) AND Scenarios. I enjoy them both.

Dudis

In daoc pretty much anything would interrupt your casting, meaning you could completely lock down a caster by just swinging your weapon at him/her.

Here's one of my old 8v8 vids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJ09Ptg8LY



It might be easier to spot mechanics in this vid with some 3v3 fights we set up though (nevermind the first song, it's there to *** a friend off (you won't get it :P)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7sKS97rzPU

Rev780

In terms of DAOC there were many large scale battles that were far more than 8v8. More like 8 groups of 8 zerging together.

NordJitsu

This game has both hard interrupts and hard CC.

Maybe you're not using the terms in the same way though...? (never played DAoC)

Dudis

Hard interrupts doesn't mean a "kick" mechanic (aka bash/interrupt in this game). If you were hit by anything in daoc, you could not cast for 3 seconds, period.
(there were abilities to somewhat counter this, but position, CC and counter-interrupts was key)

CC was very stong in daoc but it had plenty of counters and VERY long immunity timers (5x duration for melee CC and 1 minute flat for casted).

Napkins

NordJitsu wrote: »

This game has both hard interrupts and hard CC.

Maybe you're not using the terms in the same way though...? (never played DAoC)

A bunch of players coined the term "hard" years ago.
For interrupts it means any damage would prevent someone from casting a spell. For CC it was having a CC spell last over 30 secs. Alot had a duration of 1m+.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

When I think hard CC I think stun knock up/down and disoriented.

Soft cc is roots and slows.

shiva7663

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "BG"?

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

shiva7663 wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "BG"?

Battleground.

It's like those tiny RvR battles in DAOC before you hit the frontier

Zintair

BG = Battleground

Hard Interrupt means an auto attack swing will interupt a cast making positioning VERY important. Casters were given the QuickCast ability too to get a chance to cast an ability while under attack.

Hard CC is MEZZ/Sleep where a caster would cast it on a group of players and all the players would be CC'd for the timer. Any damage that touches them would break it out. There were diminishing returns on the timer after the first CC broke.

DAOC was structured very different from this gam,e and would never be able to be reproduced because it would completely effect the entire combat system which was built for both PvP and PvE.

Wait for Camelot Unchained if this is what you are looking for. I know I am.

Doomraven

Ewww, please no boring-ass instanced PvP. BGs are so lame.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Doomraven wrote: »

Ewww, please no boring-ass instanced PvP. BGs are so lame.

Cyrodill is instanced.

thelg

I don't think combat mechanics are the issue here. DAOC took LONG time to evolve into its golden age. First few month of RvR would make 99% of the people on this forum insta quit, it was so broken that Bat spamming DK Emperor would seem balanced in comparison.

What DAOC had was Realm and Server loyalty and pride. This came from few things:

1. Unique classe/races
2. LONG PVE lvl grinding(we are talking 3 month on release if you were not exploiting) VR level are an absolute joke in comparison. People were invested into their character
3. Very strong class/grp dependency. You had to have a Healer, you had to have buffer, you had to have some sort of CC, you had to have some kind of speed. You knew people on your server because you had to.
4. You could not transfer servers or respec for that matter. Here in ESO we jump campaigns daily, does anyone even give a F?

Camelot Unchained hopefully will try to replicate some of this. But you got to remember that MJ also gave us WAR. And that thing sucked more then ESO by far. I still remember sitting in that dumb ass Elf beach scenario farming pugs for weeks. Was there even world pvp? ya there was except that zones were absolutely terrible for it. Also 2 sides.. and channel everyone into fortress fights.. ya that will work.

They need to start simple. Disable campaign transfers and guesting, everything else is a bonus.

Rev780

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Doomraven wrote: »

Ewww, please no boring-ass instanced PvP. BGs are so lame.

Cyrodill is instanced.

Instanced means that it was created at the point of entry and will end when you have completed the match. AvA is on going, all the time with no start or ending.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Rev780 wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Doomraven wrote: »

Ewww, please no boring-ass instanced PvP. BGs are so lame.

Cyrodill is instanced.

Instanced means that it was created at the point of entry and will end when you have completed the match. AvA is on going, all the time with no start or ending.

With that logic it is instanced since someone will win at the end of the 90 days.

The thing you are describing is open world PvP not AvA.

xDonMega

8v8 was a side game in DAOC... and they whined about the zergs just as much as people here are.

joshisanonymous

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

With that logic it is instanced since someone will win at the end of the 90 days.

The thing you are describing is open world PvP not AvA.

I'm sorry, you don't know what instancing is.

Edit: Also, can the 3 or so people making numerous threads about the same exact subject just stop? Seriously, use one thread. You made your argument; there's no need to repeat it with 15 new threads just to make it look like there are a lot more people who agree with you. In fact, you should probably just be using /feedback if you want BGs and arenas.

I also don't agree with this assessment that ESO has failed to create the same sort of PvP as DAoC because of combat mechanics. Hell, I don't even agree that ESO has failed in this task in the first place.

thelg

joshisanonymous wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

With that logic it is instanced since someone will win at the end of the 90 days.

The thing you are describing is open world PvP not AvA.

I'm sorry, you don't know what instancing is.

Edit: Also, can the 3 or so people making numerous threads about the same exact subject just stop? Seriously, use one thread. You made your argument; there's no need to repeat it with 15 new threads just to make it look like there are a lot more people who agree with you. In fact, you should probably just be using /feedback if you want BGs and arenas.

I also don't agree with this assessment that ESO has failed to create the same sort of PvP as DAoC because of combat mechanics. Hell, I don't even agree that ESO has failed in this task in the first place.

It did fail so far because of the campaign transfers and guesting mostly.

joshisanonymous

thelg wrote: »

It did fail so far because of the campaign transfers and guesting mostly.

I agree that's detrimental, but the basic game succeeds greatly in achieving DAoC-style PvP, IMO. It easily has the potential to be just as good.

Tarwin

You guys are making me cry with the nostalgia of the good ol days /sniff

Nooblet

joshisanonymous wrote: »

thelg wrote: »

It did fail so far because of the campaign transfers and guesting mostly.

I agree that's detrimental, but the basic game succeeds greatly in achieving DAoC-style PvP, IMO. It easily has the potential to be just as good.

While it has the same style PvP. I don't believe the potential is there to be just as good.
-Poor combat mechanics:
-Healing
-Mostly instant spells/no hard interrupts
-CC that basically = stamina dump and more of annoyance than anything
-Gap closers/teleports/pull-ins included (Much prefer positioning being important)
-Holding block and being able to still do dps
-Animation canceling
-Targeting, and AoE caps, promoting stacking in balls and spamming AoE


Other things:
-The Shared PvP zone, instead of 3 unique zones with different feel and different keep designs etc for each unique realm/alliance.(While some of this might be adjusted, I'm not sure it can achieve the same feeling of ownership of keeps, and which keep "should" be "yours") (With that in mind.. I love the zone and its terrain)
-Alliance points being practically worthless
-PvP ranks being practically worthless(and able to easily buy every pvp skill/passive rather than make choice matter)
-No realm/alliance unique classes/skills.
-Very little diversity among classes(Balance issues, hopefully will improve as changes happen)
-Very little incentive for smaller group pvp
-Raid groups(A little torn on this, as smaller groups you get to know people more and promote group vs group fighting through being the size of the group, but can see how people in larger guilds might not like reverting back away from raid groups)



Just to name a few. While I can see some of these being fixed/adjusted. Some I do not see changing and they would take major overhauls. So I do not see the potential to match that of DAoC.. However I still think it has the potential to be fun.

Leesha

thelg wrote: »

What DAOC had was Realm and Server loyalty and pride. This came from few things:

1. Unique classe/races
2. LONG PVE lvl grinding(we are talking 3 month on release if you were not exploiting) VR level are an absolute joke in comparison. People were invested into their character
3. Very strong class/grp dependency. You had to have a Healer, you had to have buffer, you had to have some sort of CC, you had to have some kind of speed. You knew people on your server because you had to.
4. You could not transfer servers or respec for that matter. Here in ESO we jump campaigns daily, does anyone even give a F?

This is why it was so popular and the reason people I played DAoC with (pre wow days) miss it. I hate pvp in current games but I did participate in pvp in DAoC. The loyalty was a huge factor and because it was a group effort, it wasn't an epeen contest. Classes weren't balanced because each class had their own role and no one complained about "NERF CLERICS NOW THEY ARE TOO OP CAUSE I CAN"T KILL THEM 1v1!!111!!!!".

The current pvp generation seems to want every class to have the exact same damage output, CC abilities, CC breaks and survivability. They don't want to work as a team unless it is a mass zerg for free points/honor/etc.

rich_nicholsonb16_ESO

thelg wrote: »

I don't think combat mechanics are the issue here. DAOC took LONG time to evolve into its golden age. First few month of RvR would make 99% of the people on this forum insta quit, it was so broken that Bat spamming DK Emperor would seem balanced in comparison.

What DAOC had was Realm and Server loyalty and pride. This came from few things:

1. Unique classe/races
2. LONG PVE lvl grinding(we are talking 3 month on release if you were not exploiting) VR level are an absolute joke in comparison. People were invested into their character
3. Very strong class/grp dependency. You had to have a Healer, you had to have buffer, you had to have some sort of CC, you had to have some kind of speed. You knew people on your server because you had to.
4. You could not transfer servers or respec for that matter. Here in ESO we jump campaigns daily, does anyone even give a F?

Camelot Unchained hopefully will try to replicate some of this. But you got to remember that MJ also gave us WAR. And that thing sucked more then ESO by far. I still remember sitting in that dumb ass Elf beach scenario farming pugs for weeks. Was there even world pvp? ya there was except that zones were absolutely terrible for it. Also 2 sides.. and channel everyone into fortress fights.. ya that will work.

They need to start simple. Disable campaign transfers and guesting, everything else is a bonus.

MJ also gave us toa which killed off the game. I dont think CU will be any good, no pve = bad news, every game needs pve even a pvp game.

We do need to bring back the realm pride from Daoc into this game, by stopping ppl from jumping campaigns would be a good start. More rewards are needed also to keep ppl interested such as realm skills like daoc had ie we could use skill points gained from AvA ranks to increase magika, health, stamina, spell damage, certain resists, blocking etc so they will be passive skills.

But i really do think, and i know i keep saying it, 24 ppl in a group is far too many, daoc had 8 and i always thought that was a bit too many especially if you came from a small guild. Cutting group sizes down would help the game if they sorted out the healing to stay in group, ppl wouldn't run in these blobs as it wont be as effective.

xDonMega

There is no realm loyalty or pride because this current pvp generation has been raised up in arenas..

lao

NordJitsu wrote: »

This game has both hard interrupts and hard CC.

Maybe you're not using the terms in the same way though...? (never played DAoC)

hard interupts = every type of dmg and most debuffs will interupt ur cast and u will be locked down for 3secs until u can attempt to cast again. attempting to cast too early will add an extra ~2secs to the timer.

hard CC = long duration aoe CC. DAoC had aoe mezzes/roots that would last for 80 secs minus resists. u usually had around 42% resist vs CC types so thats around 40 secs unless some1 in ur group demezzes you. you also got 1 min immunity after the mezz ended tho. (there were seperate immunities for each CC type. mezz stun, root etc.)

ESO has neither of those. just noskill aoes

Doomraven

joshisanonymous wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

With that logic it is instanced since someone will win at the end of the 90 days.

The thing you are describing is open world PvP not AvA.

I'm sorry, you don't know what instancing is.

^^

joshisanonymous

@Nooblet‌

That's more like a list of things that aren't exactly the same as in DAoC, and some of those things even are the same. For instance, there were certainly gap closers like charge (or even just det5 tanks that were at times basically un-CC-able). That has no bearing on whether positioning is important, though. Or listing things like animation canceling: I'm really not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm not really sure what much of that list has to do with anything.

I actually like the mechanics of ESO quite a bit but, more to the point: having different mechanics does not automatically lead to a failure to create equally engrossing PvP. If that were the case, there'd be no hope in playing good PvP again unless someone made literally the exact same game as DAoC, perhaps with updated graphics. I'm pretty sure this is the goal of Camelot Unchained, but that sounds pretty boring to me. I just want that same feeling, it doesn't have to literally be the same game to achieve that. And I get that feeling from ESO.

I will say that I was hoping for the terrain to blend in to adjacent PvE zones a bit better, too. There's some snow up along the north I guess, but I never start feeling like I'm getting close to Morrowind or something. However, I still think this is pretty minor. I mean, people spent 95% of their time in Emain in DAoC anyway. That changed in NF, but both worked, IMO.

joshisanonymous

Leesha wrote: »

Classes weren't balanced because each class had their own role and no one complained about "NERF CLERICS NOW THEY ARE TOO OP CAUSE I CAN"T KILL THEM 1v1!!111!!!!".

I'm sorry, I don't mean to keep posting here as I find the topic of this thread pretty irrelevant, but people absolutely complained about classes all the time in DAoC. In fact, they complained about Clerics even. The internet was still the internet, after all.