Should people who buy thousands of raw materials from bots for gold be punished.

stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

Dear OP...

You're poll shows a bias and predetermined notion of "OFCOURSE" Hence this poll is merely and ego stroker...

3 option of YES and 1 saying "NO, they get away with it" shows you are biased and are so sure people that buy mats "know" they are doing wrong.

Having more then 1 option of "No" would have been a good start.

zaria

theweakminded wrote: »

Pointlessly loaded question is pointless. Punish people for just doing business. No. Fastest way to kill your game.

in short its no way to know that they guy farmed the materials used a bot.
He might also be an trader buying cheap and selling out.

And yes player run bots will be the main problem once they have driven the gold sellers underground, they are harder to catch as the character has a life in the game, he chat in guild, he do quests and pvp during late night or worktime he farms or grind.

steveb16_ESO46

How the hell do people know they are buying materials from bots or not?

ZakyUchiha

Yeah, how can you know if it's a bot if it doesn't have a ridiculous name?
I for one, haven't seen any bots selling..

Turelus

Three strike rule again IMO.

1. Take all offending items/gold warn player.
2. Week ban.
3. Perma-ban.

Remember that while you may not be happy with some of the people doing this as they're feeding the gold selling trade they're still legitimate players who want to be playing this game and not all of them are aware of how bad their actions are.

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

Purchases from gold sellers are very easy to discover imho. Since other games have databases where you could see your level, kills, gear etc... I am certain that devs must know exactly who has how many items. You could most likely filter stuff like show me those with the highest number of this material or gold.

Or to list those with highest trades with players (in case seller is having small number of materials on ton of accounts.

Really I do believe that to combat them is very easy. You could find suspect easily, then you can track their activity. Review activity and ban them based on proof.

SantieClaws

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

Ban them if they buy materials or gold outside of the game with real currency. Suspend if they buy in game from an advertised goldseller or very obvious bot and there is a chain of mails that shows they knew what they were doing.

If someone buys through a guild store and there is no way they could reasonably relate the sale to a goldseller then there isn't much you can do. If you are buying large stacks of top grade mats where on earth are you getting the money for them from in the first place though .....

Arthur_Spoonfondle

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

As I have said before, part of the solution is to restrict gold movements between accounts, on a daily basis.

The number of legitimate players who would be disadvantaged, by such a measure, would be tiny compared to the number who would benefit from reduced bots and gold spammers/sellers.

Pele

I vote to kill this ridiculous biased thread/poll.

Kyosji

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

If I need materials, and I shout in the zone chat that I WTB Elegant Lining, I will buy it from the cheapest source. If that gets me a ban, I don't need to be playing a backwards game like this anyways. You can't punish the ones buying materials from bots. Even if the player knew it was a bot, if he needed the item bad enough, and had the in game currency, there is no rule he would be violating by purchasing it.

If you needed a specific item badly, and the only thing on to buy it from was a bot that was asking IN GAME currency for the item, are you telling me I should be banned because I bought it from my only source or cheapest source? That's stupidity to think that.

ozgod22_eso

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

Yes, if it is proven that external transactions took place. Which is impossible to prove which is why no gaming company has been able to take significant action against gold BUYERS, just gold SELLERS.

dolanjamieb16_ESO

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

The poll states 'Should people who buy thousands of raw materials from bots for gold be punished'

No if they bought mats with in game gold how can you ban them they did nothing wrong?

Some people seem to be misunderstanding the question and your post to support the poll is misleading

If the poll said they used real money to buy its different

If person A has enough gold to buy mats from person B why should person A be held accountable its a trade in good faith sure they might be gold sellers but that is nothing to do with person A's ability to buy mats from which ever source

Regoras

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

wrlifeboil wrote: »

MercyKilling wrote: »

WilliamTee wrote: »

With a poll like that you should run referendums on the behalf of a-country-that-shall-not-be-named.

hint: it rhymes with

I have no idea who that is.
So...Finland? Poland. Yugoslavia. Nigeria. Iceland? Australia.

Am I getting warm?

Are you in the senior citizen cohort or the foreign country cohort?

I also have no idea who that is.

Kyosji

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

What I gather from Op, the only way to not get banned is to disable all forms of trade and the guild store. Since you can never be sure who is and who isn't a bot, or who has ties with a bot, no source is safe! Lets take the real player interaction out of thsi game to get rid of the real money transactions!

IIxGH0STxII

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

Saerydoth wrote: »

If they *knowingly* deal with bots/gold sellers, then absolutely YES.

Affrayer

stefaan.de.wasch1b16_ESO wrote: »

Dear OP...

You're poll shows a bias and predetermined notion of "OFCOURSE" Hence this poll is merely and ego stroker...

3 option of YES and 1 saying "NO, they get away with it" shows you are biased and are so sure people that buy mats "know" they are doing wrong.

Having more then 1 option of "No" would have been a good start.

^ This.

robert

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

I would imagine that the Gold Sellers are selling mats for real cash and that the in-game transaction is just the hand-off procedure.

That said...ban them all.

Knovah

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

While I support your opinion and right to have one the poll has left out a lot of" No" options and a bit one-sided.. The one No option you do have is nothing but a sarcastic remark that someone with a no vote, for reasons like mine, cannot vote for unless they look like they support rmt… I think the logic is flawed to a large degree.

If a gold seller has joined a large trading guild with legit players and we know this has happen already it is how they launder gold and duped items into the economy to look legit from legit players who are unsuspecting. How would you know who was and was not a gold seller? Most ( gold sellers not the bots) have somewhat normal names? You want to punish someone who buys something in a guild store from a gold seller?

"you have how many materials omg you must be a goldseller/ buyer"......hell with that logic I should be banned I stock pile my mats off my alts till I get bored of gathering or refining and start crafting and yes if mats are cheap in a guild store I will snag them up for my crafting as well.

How can you do so without punishing the legit players who did so unsuspecting? In this logic no one should buy from anyone because they could possibly be a gold seller or an item that was purchased from a gold seller…
hell why stop there in this flawed logic let's just ban everyone who ever looked at something in a guild store….start yelling gold seller at each other because they are a paranoid chicken little and everyone runs because they could possibly be banned for something that was linked to them by 7 degrees from a suspected gold seller

I know let's just start the inquisition again and anyone who is possibly a gold seller or could have maybe someway, shape or form purchased an item that may have been crafted from something someone bought from a guild store that may or may not have came from a gold seller.

The devs maybe able to track the bigger obvious ones (and yes ban the Obvious in your face blatant buyers and sellers) but how can you track the above and punish without definitive proof? You start banning people who are legit players over something they cannot control you will have the Chicken Little syndrome and no one will buy / sell anything.

Remember the "I was banned wrongly" posts that littered the forums imagine that times 1000 if they started this flawed way of business.

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

Turelus wrote: »

Three strike rule again IMO.

1. Take all offending items/gold warn player.
2. Week ban.
3. Perma-ban.

Remember that while you may not be happy with some of the people doing this as they're feeding the gold selling trade they're still legitimate players who want to be playing this game and not all of them are aware of how bad their actions are.

I hadn't considered a strike system. Might be a better idea for offenses like this.

Azarul

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

No, if they are using in game gold which they collected legally then they should be allowed to purchase items being sold by any other player period. Stop the one breaking the rules which isnt the buyer IMO.

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

Azarul wrote: »

No, if they are using in game gold which they collected legally then they should be allowed to purchase items being sold by any other player period. Stop the one breaking the rules which isnt the buyer IMO.

So if we translate this to a real world example, would you say "Arrest the people selling drugs not the ones buying and using them since the people buying them most likely got their money legally"?

Kyosji

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

No, if they are using in game gold which they collected legally then they should be allowed to purchase items being sold by any other player period. Stop the one breaking the rules which isnt the buyer IMO.

So if we translate this to a real world example, would you say "Arrest the people selling drugs not the ones buying and using them since the people buying them most likely got their money legally"?

Your example is stupid and doesnt work with the scenario. A correct scenario would be some random thief stole a whole bunch of video games and movies and sold them on ebay or Amazon and you bought one. Would you arrest the person that bought if off of ebay or Amazon?

Xithian

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

No, if they are using in game gold which they collected legally then they should be allowed to purchase items being sold by any other player period. Stop the one breaking the rules which isnt the buyer IMO.

So if we translate this to a real world example, would you say "Arrest the people selling drugs not the ones buying and using them since the people buying them most likely got their money legally"?

That doesn't line up at all, since most of those drugs are illegal no matter how you get them. You're showing your bias.

This is more along the lines of buying stolen goods. What you're saying is that if I pick up some used XBox games on Craigslist and they turn out to be stolen, I should be charged in conjunction with the thief under the law. No matter how they were presented, or what information I was given/not given. And that is wrong. You are only charged if it can be proven that you knew the goods were stolen.

Loxy37

None of the above. How can Zenimax tell who bought from a bot? Its not like they are walking down the street and buying drugs from a dealer while a cops watching is it? I suspect that 90% don't even know they are bots, see cheap deals and have it. Now if their names where hfhhfhhfhh and you bought from them then there maybe a case but any bots worth their salt, tout their wares via a 3rd party launderer who appears to be a legitimate player.

steveb16_ESO46

I'm still waiting, through all these types of threads, for someone to explain to me how you detect who is buying gold. You all imagine it is easy. It isn't. These sellers are big corporations that have been in business for many years. They know how to launder money to make it hard to trace.

The front for a gold seller will be a disposable toon deleted after the transaction. They would receive gold through a maze of transfers from and through other now deleted toons.

The money may well be 'delivered' through one or more auction purchases. If they give the purchaser a rare motif and then buy it back off him how do you detect that? It's just a trade between 2 apparently normal accounts. What brings it to Zen's attention in the first place?

It's just one trade like any other. What if the heavily laundered gold is delivered in a series of 250gp purchases for say 10 iron ores? What makes you suspicious of that?

Trace all the transactions of bots you say? Trace the actions of tens of thousands of bots through layer after layer of transactions through layers of deleted toons, through multiple transformations of exchanged materials? How many hundred forensic accountants with supporting teams of programmers do you imagine ZMO have or could have? And no - 'computers' don't do this work. Teams of people do. this isn't Star Trek. computers are tool programmed and used by people, not magic boxes.

Look - if this was this easy to crack down on this:

1 - gold selling in MMO's would not be an industry worth hundreds of millions a year.
2 It wouldn't be an industry-wide problem.
3 Law enforcement would not be worried about criminals using MMO's to launder real money.

Employing virtual worlds to launder money is not a new idea, but whether it's currently being used to hide proceeds of crime on any significant scale is still a subject of debate. But it's not just AUSTRAC that has been keeping an eye on the potential for money laundering; the Financial Action Task Force, the global body that monitors money laundering, issued a report in October 2010, Money Laundering Using New Payment Methods, that noted these digital methods were emerging avenues for hiding illicit profits.

I'm all for banning buyers and closing down sellers but computers are not magic machines and Zen don't have magic wands. In the real world detecting and proving money laundering is a highly skilled and specialised skill. it's hard. And in the real wold people involved are not one-shot and deleted toons.

The RMT guys are well resourced and clever. It might make you all feel big men by posturing and banging your chests but you are ignoring one of life's golden rules.

If you see an apparently simple solution to a long standing intractable problem - you don't understand the situation.

The problem here is that ZMO designed a stable door consisting of 2 hinges and nothing else. Now they are trying to install a stable door while an endless stream of horses are running, flying and burrowing from the stables.

It's totally their fault this is happening but that doesn't mean they aren't busting a gut to retrieve the situation.

Banging on as if this is easy helps nothing.

Knovah

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

First when you are buying drugs you know you are buying drugs no question you seek out that seller for that purchase … That is illegal…If we are just speaking about punishing the obvious rmt sellers and buyers, then hell yeah ban both parties but when you have a gold seller infiltrating a guild and laundering goods for gold through a guild store to unsuspecting legit players … That is where the logic is flawed and is no longer black and white.

To compare drug dealers and video games in that way is really reaching I am sorry but imho it is.

So we ban everyone who has supported rmt and gold sellers …..

EX: little Johnny buys a stack of ore off a guild store for in game gold .He did not know the guy was a gold seller. It was cheap ore ,for he is in a legit trading guild.(so he thinks) and he takes that ore that he purchased (and unknowingly supported a gold seller) makes crafted items and sticks back on the same guild store and betty- knows- it- all buys it and breaks it down takes the mats from it and crafts something else and puts back on guild store.. You keep doing this over and over and most of the guild will be supporting rmt and said gold seller…

So how do you ban legit players? BAN them all in this logic …and don't cry on forums about it because you supported a gold seller ...(sarcasm)


EDIT to add:

And before you jump in and say something like" That’s not we are talking about" or" obviously you can't ban people like that" …..This poll is lopsided and with no other option in NO but that one sarcastic support Rmt choice. Anyone who clicks any of the yes choices will be, in this poll, saying ban anyone who supports RMT and that includes little Johnny …..

Poor Poor Johnny would be banned and crying on the forums before his email was open.

WilliamTee

WilliamTee wrote: »

With a poll like that you should run referendums on the behalf of a-country-that-shall-not-be-named.

hint: it rhymes with

Ok... perhaps I was asking a lot for a forum of MMO players to recognise an R&B artist...

Or be aware of recent international/political events. -.-

Kyosji

No, they get away with buying from bots/exploiters.

Also, I see a lot of odd names in game. Not all of them are bots. Some people make mules to store items and don't give them legit names. I've done this myself just for the sake of extra space and named them things like kjhds or Kyo-01 or the such. Doesn't mean I'm a bot or a gold seller, just means I wanted a disposable mule.

I also have bought things from players in VR zones with names such as "Jwarh" or similar. Their names look like what people consider bot names, but why would a VR5 bot be selling crafting mats? I'm going to buy it regardless of their name because I need it to continue my VR grind.

Calgrissom

Some may be buying these from gold farmers but not everyone. I sell thousands of cloth/Ingots/leather a week and dozens of rank 10 Dropped armor sets. We have a group of 4 Hardcore players who farm these items together and I am our Salesman so to speak. I've been accused of being a bot farmer and buying from bot farmers etc.. Some people just come up with a better way to play the game and make money and people have a hard time grasping this as they didn't come up with It themselves. Yesterday alone I sold 4 Salvation sets 4 unassailable sets and almost 2k in refined material.

Now when I see someone pop up that they have 300 Tempered alloys for sale I do raise and eyebrow but some people are legit.

JosephChip

Yes, they deserve to be banned like the RMT's and gold buyers.

If they knowingly buy from a bot/gold seller then they deserve the ban.