(BUG) Reflective Scale expenses reflected spell's cost

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I really hate the whining associated with this ability being OP. It should NOT drain the DK's resources. If a player fails to see the huge wings sprout and the orange glow and fires a projectile at the DK, they deserve exactly what they get.

It last for a whole 4 seconds. Resto attack them, hit them with a sword, put a ground base spell on them, etc. It's not like there aren't any options

Yes if you fire on a DK who recently sprouted wings you deserve what you get. That is how it is currently and DKs still manage to use the skill very frequently while maintaining their resources.

It lasts for 4 seconds but can easily be maintained for an extended period of time even in its current bugged form. How long will DKs be able to sustain it after it is fixed? Resto heavy attacks tickle, not everyone uses a sword or ground based spell.

Not everyone is the build required to maintain resources with the bugged drain scales cost either. They also potion chugged a lot.

Erock25

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I really hate the whining associated with this ability being OP. It should NOT drain the DK's resources. If a player fails to see the huge wings sprout and the orange glow and fires a projectile at the DK, they deserve exactly what they get.

It last for a whole 4 seconds. Resto attack them, hit them with a sword, put a ground base spell on them, etc. It's not like there aren't any options

Yes if you fire on a DK who recently sprouted wings you deserve what you get. That is how it is currently and DKs still manage to use the skill very frequently while maintaining their resources.

It lasts for 4 seconds but can easily be maintained for an extended period of time even in its current bugged form. How long will DKs be able to sustain it after it is fixed? Resto heavy attacks tickle, not everyone uses a sword or ground based spell.

Not everyone is the build required to maintain resources with the bugged drain scales cost either. They also potion chugged a lot.

I'm sorry but this argument is invalid after the frequent nerfing and complaining about Sorc Bolt Escape and other skills. Every skill that is complained about on these forums is related to that class deciding to min/max their build in a certain way. My Sorc when set up for a 2h/bow medium armor build can only cast 2 bolt escapes in a row if I am at 90% magicka or lower because that skill was balanced around those who go for optimal magicka builds.

decado0024_ESO

guillaume.trudelub17_ESO wrote: »

Tested with Dragon Fire Scale morph of Reflective Scale (DK).

I do not remember this always being the case, it seems that it was recently broken after a patch, but Reflective Scale expenses the cost of EVERY ability that is reflected. This was tested with friends from another alliance in a very controlled combat situation specifically designed to verify this issue. The tests were repeated several times with various types of projectiles. Nightblade siphon abilities, Sorcerer Crystal Shards and various bow attacks were all reflected. Every single one of them that has a cost caused the Dragon Knight himself to expense this cost. Reflected 3 "Snipe", WITHOUT BLOCKING, on my magicka based DK caused me to go from 100% stamina to 0% stamina. Each reflected snipe took away ~450 stamina. The same is true for Crystal Shards, Poison Arrow and the red siphon NB ability, which took away stamina or magicka according to their cost.

Not to chime in too much here as I main a NB however I have a DK that is V12 as well and I gotta say im ok with this. Ppl need to get away from the lways having things up mentality to the reactive use this when needed mentality. I don't think this skill was supposed to make u a perma reflect champion. I think It was meant to be used WHEN NEEDED so the fact that it drains your resources seems to me to be the balance to this skill.

Lesspa

A better option is to cut regen down while reflect holds. Right now, reflect resource drain is too unpredictable, but no resource drain will be too OP.

Any thoughts?

Bipolo

Just to reply to those of you who are posting here in fear of this fix of an ability that has been bugged for over 3 months.

Ranged vs Melee in Cyrodiil is already pretty one sided, anyone who have spent enough time there see and know how much ranged there is compared to melee.

Class-wise, think about this,

Melee NB can use Shadow Cloak
Melee Sorc can use Bolt Escape
Melee Temp can use Sun Shield

Melee DK can use ... ?

So i'll repeat what others and myself have mentioned in earlier posts here:
If you cant hold your fire as a ranged based character until a DK burns through resources flapping RS, and you have absolutely no other abilities slotted on your two bars (10 slots) but projectile based attacks and buffs, it is your choice.

I know plenty of players who know perfectly well how to counter Reflective Scale. Those who do, just made the DK waste magicka

A little perspective maybe?
Imagine a stubborn Melee character trying to fight a ranged Sorc/NB with no gap closer or snare/root... What would you as a ranged player tell him?

I would imagine most of you would say, "use a Gap Closer, Snare or Root"

Maulkin

@Erock25, I think the issue is primarily with Sorcs as 90% of their attacks get reflected.

I hope they don't nerf Reflective Scales but makes some changes that allow Sorcs to DPS down DKs. In my mind that would involve changes to Velocious Curse.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌, can we get the bug that allows the Explosion from Mage's Fury fixed as well? Executing only to be executed back is not fun

Morticielle

Joy_Division wrote: »

I really hate the whining associated with this ability being OP. It should NOT drain the DK's resources. If a player fails to see the huge wings sprout and the orange glow and fires a projectile at the DK, they deserve exactly what they get.

The problem is not seeing that animation the problem is having no abilities to do anything against a DK who keeps Reflective Scales up. As a Sorc I have exactly 1 ability which is not reflected by Reflective Scales and which deals at least acceptable damage.

RS is per se overpowered: An ability which does not only mitigate 100% of the incoming damage but reflects it on its caster and as a bonus increases it by 35% (Dragon Fire Scales) and can be kept up and takes certain classes totally out is absolutely and totally overpowered! If you don't see this then you are either plain stupid or you are a lying prick who knows that it's op but needs an op ability because he is a terrible bad and unskilled player who could not kill *** without it.

Armitas

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey folks. Just want you to know that we are looking at this issue, and are gathering information so we can work on fixing it. We can, at the very least, confirm that this is not working as intended.

Yeahhhh!

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I really hate the whining associated with this ability being OP. It should NOT drain the DK's resources. If a player fails to see the huge wings sprout and the orange glow and fires a projectile at the DK, they deserve exactly what they get.

It last for a whole 4 seconds. Resto attack them, hit them with a sword, put a ground base spell on them, etc. It's not like there aren't any options

Yes if you fire on a DK who recently sprouted wings you deserve what you get. That is how it is currently and DKs still manage to use the skill very frequently while maintaining their resources.

It lasts for 4 seconds but can easily be maintained for an extended period of time even in its current bugged form. How long will DKs be able to sustain it after it is fixed? Resto heavy attacks tickle, not everyone uses a sword or ground based spell.

Not everyone is the build required to maintain resources with the bugged drain scales cost either. They also potion chugged a lot.

I'm sorry but this argument is invalid after the frequent nerfing and complaining about Sorc Bolt Escape and other skills. Every skill that is complained about on these forums is related to that class deciding to min/max their build in a certain way. My Sorc when set up for a 2h/bow medium armor build can only cast 2 bolt escapes in a row if I am at 90% magicka or lower because that skill was balanced around those who go for optimal magicka builds.

Everythings balanced around magicka builds.

Erock25

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I really hate the whining associated with this ability being OP. It should NOT drain the DK's resources. If a player fails to see the huge wings sprout and the orange glow and fires a projectile at the DK, they deserve exactly what they get.

It last for a whole 4 seconds. Resto attack them, hit them with a sword, put a ground base spell on them, etc. It's not like there aren't any options

Yes if you fire on a DK who recently sprouted wings you deserve what you get. That is how it is currently and DKs still manage to use the skill very frequently while maintaining their resources.

It lasts for 4 seconds but can easily be maintained for an extended period of time even in its current bugged form. How long will DKs be able to sustain it after it is fixed? Resto heavy attacks tickle, not everyone uses a sword or ground based spell.

Not everyone is the build required to maintain resources with the bugged drain scales cost either. They also potion chugged a lot.

I'm sorry but this argument is invalid after the frequent nerfing and complaining about Sorc Bolt Escape and other skills. Every skill that is complained about on these forums is related to that class deciding to min/max their build in a certain way. My Sorc when set up for a 2h/bow medium armor build can only cast 2 bolt escapes in a row if I am at 90% magicka or lower because that skill was balanced around those who go for optimal magicka builds.

Everythings balanced around magicka builds.

Which is exactly the point I was trying to make in regards to you comment that not every build can sustain Reflective Scale.

Warraxx

Stamina Melee DK here... kinda need the RS to fend off the OP ranged toons.

Ezareth

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Okay guys, looks like this will be fixed when we release Update 4, which we're targeting for next week. Sorry this took so long to address, but let us know if you're still seeing issues with Reflective Scale after you try it out next week.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Any word on whether you are able to fix the bug where reflective scales are reflecting mages fury explosion? It is absurd that when you go to execute a DK with scales up it ends up killing you instead.

This bug began when you guys "fixed" the magicka return of endless fury, the other morph of Mages fury....I assume by making the mana return a projectile.

Sypher

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

But DKs already spam this ability in combat. I can't imagine how much more powerful this 'bug fix' is going to make DKs. Watch out what you wish for DKs, this 'fix' will lead to the inevitable nerf of reflective scales.

We are literally just fixing two things that were broken: magicka will no longer be drained, and reflected projectiles will now do damage like they're supposed to.

What about the stamina drain? Because if you reflect a stamina based skill your stamina is drained by the cost of the skill that is reflected.

Just double checked, and the fix will address both magicka and stamina drain.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Could you also address why a projectile shot from sneak isn't reflected even if you have reflective scales up?

guybrushtb16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

I really hate the whining associated with this ability being OP. It should NOT drain the DK's resources. If a player fails to see the huge wings sprout and the orange glow and fires a projectile at the DK, they deserve exactly what they get.

It last for a whole 4 seconds. Resto attack them, hit them with a sword, put a ground base spell on them, etc. It's not like there aren't any options

Yes, because everytime I see a DK I should open my inventory, change my armor and weapons, go to the skills pane and change my build to accomodate that. Sounds absoutely feasible.

This ability in it's fixed state is just laughably op, hardcountering all ranged builds indefinitely... Yea, sounds balanced... I hope it gets its proper "get down" treatment with coming balance patches then.

Bipolo wrote: »

A little perspective maybe?
Imagine a stubborn Melee character trying to fight a ranged Sorc/NB with no gap closer or snare/root... What would you as a ranged player tell him?

I would imagine most of you would say, "use a Gap Closer, Snare or Root"

Except that the player not using gap closer in a melee build is using a build that is terrible against everyone in general.

I mean seriously, what it comes down to is "ranged builds need to bring a melee bar that probably won't really synergize with anything they wanted to do, just to be able to fight this one skill." To me, this is practically the definition of a skill being op.

Bipolo

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Bipolo wrote: »

A little perspective maybe?
Imagine a stubborn Melee character trying to fight a ranged Sorc/NB with no gap closer or snare/root... What would you as a ranged player tell him?

I would imagine most of you would say, "use a Gap Closer, Snare or Root"

Except that the player not using gap closer in a melee build is using a build that is terrible against everyone in general.

I mean seriously, what it comes down to is "ranged builds need to bring a melee bar that probably won't really synergize with anything they wanted to do, just to be able to fight this one skill." To me, this is practically the definition of a skill being op.

This goes both ways... We come back to what you bring to the fight, rock/paper/scissors.

I know a lot of ranged glass cannon builds hate Reflective Scales with a passion, mostly cause they run they risk of getting their own high DPS in return.

That won't happen against any other class except DK. Easy Class examples in Ranged vs Melee would be Sorcerer's can Bolt Escape counter attack or run, Nightblade's can Cloak counter or run, Templar's can pop Sun Shield counter or run... Just as DK's can flap their wings counter attack or run.

So the fear, hate and annoyance with DK and Reflective Scale is that you as Ranged DPS can end up taking yourself out if you don't watch out and react.

There is nothing hiding the fact that Ranged DPS builds are still way more popular in Cyrodiil anyway...

So i wonder why?

I know Sorc's, NB's, Temp's and DK's who can easily counter mindless Reflective Scale spam... It might mean you have to do some adjustments to your "Pure Ranged" DPS build, yet isn't that the point?

Everyone has to try counter Bolt Escape, Cloak and Sun Shield in their own way...

thorspark

Erock25 wrote: »

Fixing broken things is all well and good, but there are many MANY videos of DKs keeping this skill running for 24+ seconds at a time while reflecting many projectiles and they do not run out of resources. I believe fixing this skill will result in a huge boost in overall power of the DK class and you are just making more work for yourselves in the future when people jump on board the complain train.

Videos like the one you're talking about came out when syrabane set was returning 10% magicka when a spell was reflected.
It was a "workaround" found by PvP players to be able to use scales a lot.

Syrabane has been changed and doesn't work with scales anymore. ATM, if you're spammed by projectile attacks, you only last 1 or 2 scales before running out of magicka/stamina.

Fixing the skill as they plan to will still be less powered than with the old syrabane set.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

^ if they are stupid enough to continue to use projectiles against the wings.

Erock25

thorspark wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Fixing broken things is all well and good, but there are many MANY videos of DKs keeping this skill running for 24+ seconds at a time while reflecting many projectiles and they do not run out of resources. I believe fixing this skill will result in a huge boost in overall power of the DK class and you are just making more work for yourselves in the future when people jump on board the complain train.

Videos like the one you're talking about came out when syrabane set was returning 10% magicka when a spell was reflected.
It was a "workaround" found by PvP players to be able to use scales a lot.

Syrabane has been changed and doesn't work with scales anymore. ATM, if you're spammed by projectile attacks, you only last 1 or 2 scales before running out of magicka/stamina.

Fixing the skill as they plan to will still be less powered than with the old syrabane set.

No. I know for a fact that syrabane was not used in quite a few of the videos I've seen and I see it first hand quite often, even now. I was unaware that DK were getting magicka/stamina drained only sometimes from reflecting so it's tough to judge anymore. All I know is usually when I see a enemy charge into a group of 10+ people and live for an extended period of time and actually kill a few, it's always a DK keeping scales up.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Bipolo wrote: »

This goes both ways... We come back to what you bring to the fight, rock/paper/scissors.

I know a lot of ranged glass cannon builds hate Reflective Scales with a passion, mostly cause they run they risk of getting their own high DPS in return.

That won't happen against any other class except DK. Easy Class examples in Ranged vs Melee would be Sorcerer's can Bolt Escape counter attack or run, Nightblade's can Cloak counter or run, Templar's can pop Sun Shield counter or run... Just as DK's can flap their wings counter attack or run.

So the fear, hate and annoyance with DK and Reflective Scale is that you as Ranged DPS can end up taking yourself out if you don't watch out and react.

There is nothing hiding the fact that Ranged DPS builds are still way more popular in Cyrodiil anyway...

So i wonder why?

I know Sorc's, NB's, Temp's and DK's who can easily counter mindless Reflective Scale spam... It might mean you have to do some adjustments to your "Pure Ranged" DPS build, yet isn't that the point?

Everyone has to try counter Bolt Escape, Cloak and Sun Shield in their own way...

Again: The problem is that it's not just a good defensive skill to use against a particular niche build, it's a complete perfect hardcounter against that entire build archetype. It's not smart counterplay to glass cannons like you make it sound, it's complete blanket counterplay to anything at range. And it is not the fear that ranged players would "kill themselves if they don't watch" it's that they can literally do nothing at all while the DK can attack freely. That whole "punish opponent for mistakes" is fine, as long as there actually is an equally opportune alternative. For example, if there were a targeted dispel somewhere, then yes, scale would be fine. But as long as the proposed answer to scale is "you should have brought another build", it's not.

To stay with the rock/papers/scissor thing, reflective scale alone allows you to kill rock while not giving any vulnerability to scissors.

Besides, none of those skills you list have the same impact at all, sun shield is arguably the strongest of them, but it will still melt if you get focused, unless you just spam it which will be just enough to keep attackers off for a while. To extend this, what would you think if templars shield were buffed to return 133% melee damage for 4s without cap, making it even more broken then it is already?

Armitas

It's not a matter of someone bringing the wrong build it's a matter of people not bringing a versatile build. We all have a whole lot of baggage that we have to bring along due to the possibility that we may encounter any of the 4 classes each with different builds.

Our action bars are like a janitors key ring. A Janitor needs this key for the blue door, this key for the red door, and this key for the yellow door. If he fails to bring the right key he may not be able to pry the door open.

My build isn't what I want to have slotted it's what I have to have slotted if I want the highest probability of success for any encounter. I hate that I have to make this sacrifice, but it's the nature of the beast right now.

whsprwind

Am i the only DK that thinks that RFS is still pretty OP, in it's current state?

JLB

whsprwind wrote: »

Am i the only DK that thinks that RFS is still pretty OP, in it's current state?

No, you are not. Totally different matter is they admit it on Forums instead than carrying on with this farce.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Bipolo wrote: »

This goes both ways... We come back to what you bring to the fight, rock/paper/scissors.

I know a lot of ranged glass cannon builds hate Reflective Scales with a passion, mostly cause they run they risk of getting their own high DPS in return.

That won't happen against any other class except DK. Easy Class examples in Ranged vs Melee would be Sorcerer's can Bolt Escape counter attack or run, Nightblade's can Cloak counter or run, Templar's can pop Sun Shield counter or run... Just as DK's can flap their wings counter attack or run.

So the fear, hate and annoyance with DK and Reflective Scale is that you as Ranged DPS can end up taking yourself out if you don't watch out and react.

There is nothing hiding the fact that Ranged DPS builds are still way more popular in Cyrodiil anyway...

So i wonder why?

I know Sorc's, NB's, Temp's and DK's who can easily counter mindless Reflective Scale spam... It might mean you have to do some adjustments to your "Pure Ranged" DPS build, yet isn't that the point?

Everyone has to try counter Bolt Escape, Cloak and Sun Shield in their own way...

Again: The problem is that it's not just a good defensive skill to use against a particular niche build, it's a complete perfect hardcounter against that entire build archetype. It's not smart counterplay to glass cannons like you make it sound, it's complete blanket counterplay to anything at range. And it is not the fear that ranged players would "kill themselves if they don't watch" it's that they can literally do nothing at all while the DK can attack freely. That whole "punish opponent for mistakes" is fine, as long as there actually is an equally opportune alternative. For example, if there were a targeted dispel somewhere, then yes, scale would be fine. But as long as the proposed answer to scale is "you should have brought another build", it's not.

To stay with the rock/papers/scissor thing, reflective scale alone allows you to kill rock while not giving any vulnerability to scissors.

Besides, none of those skills you list have the same impact at all, sun shield is arguably the strongest of them, but it will still melt if you get focused, unless you just spam it which will be just enough to keep attackers off for a while. To extend this, what would you think if templars shield were buffed to return 133% melee damage for 4s without cap, making it even more broken then it is already?

Reflective scale only reflects projectile. Use a ranged spell thats not a projectile, they exist. No entire build has nothing but projectile attacks.

This all reminds me of a completely silly comment about templars sun shield/blazing shield when it received the buff it really didn't need:
"Don't melee a templar"

Lol as it is to say such a thing, we can always say now:
"Don't ranged a Dragon Knight"

guybrushtb16_ESO

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Reflective scale only reflects projectile. Use a ranged spell thats not a projectile, they exist. No entire build has nothing but projectile attacks.

Oh right, seems I totally forgot about all those incredibly strong non projectile ranged skills. Like... Uhm... Well... I think there's strife, if you happen to be a nightblade. And maybe some ground targetted aoes... And of course Resto staff heavy attack, which is a total dps *beast*. Yea, seems perfectly fine to just do that.

Davadin

This is epic. I gotta spend a point and see what the fuss is all about.

Tankqull

fixing the bug is correct but it still needs some kind of downside to use it. as it compleatly neglect any range specc (regardless of class and magica/stamina usage)

sth like(not all just one):
- 70% movement reduction and inability to use charge skills while active.
- 5-6 sec 100% self healdebuff after its activation
- or the bug revived in form of every spell/arrow reflectet depletes your pool by 150 points
- or "copying" the BE fix by doubling its mana cost when reused within 6sec

JLB

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

This all reminds me of a completely silly comment about templars sun shield/blazing shield when it received the buff it really didn't need:
"Don't melee a templar"

Lol as it is to say such a thing, we can always say now:
"Don't ranged a Dragon Knight"

You cant melee Templars?? Lol.
They must be confused. The class you cant melee is DKs, in any case.
And thanks to ridiculous skills like Scales, you cant range them either.

Regarding Blazing Shield, it could only be true if you are ranging him and then jump in melee, just because of the damage bug. A WAI Blazing Shield has nothing to be worried about in melee, and anyways is way, way behind on the ridiculous damage a DK can do in melee while being the hardest rock in the game.

Scales, now that is gonna be "fixed", needs a hell of a nerf.
And it's not the only DK skill needing it.

ThyIronFist

JLB wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Scales, now that is gonna be "fixed", needs a hell of a nerf.
And it's not the only DK skill needing it.

lol

just lol

JLB

ThyIronFist wrote: »

lol

just lol

Hmmm, good argumentation. And thanks, always a pleasure to keep no brainers happy.

james_vestbergb16_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

But DKs already spam this ability in combat. I can't imagine how much more powerful this 'bug fix' is going to make DKs. Watch out what you wish for DKs, this 'fix' will lead to the inevitable nerf of reflective scales.

We are literally just fixing two things that were broken: magicka will no longer be drained, and reflected projectiles will now do damage like they're supposed to.

What about the stamina drain? Because if you reflect a stamina based skill your stamina is drained by the cost of the skill that is reflected.

Just double checked, and the fix will address both magicka and stamina drain.

Hallelujah! nuff said