ESO Fight Autopsy: Invasion vs. Bolt Escape

Armitas

xDonMega wrote: »

I'm just trying to figure this 'fine when used in a fight' logic out..

I consider myself in a perpetual state of war whenever I'm in Cyrodiil.. so I'm confused as to the perception some of you have that certain abilities are only acceptable when used in combat.

I think what he means, and it's also the way I would mean it is that the skill is balanced when used offensively. Meaning that the skill seems appropriately balanced to counter melee gap closers. However it also has the capacity to go far beyond simply countering gap closers to the point of complete avoidance of melee.

xDonMega

And that's why these are nothing but whine threads..

It's perfectly balanced to counter gap closers, but at some point sorcs shouldn't be able to use it anymore... then they get killed. As long as the sorc is getting killed, no problem..

Sorc gets away.. NERF!


There is no reason for the developers to entertain these changes when the entire discussion is based on someone using BE to gain range.

It's quite obvious that the ability was meant to give sorcs range. If the sorc decides to peace out, so be it..

Armitas

xDonMega wrote: »

And that's why these are nothing but whine threads..

It's perfectly balanced to counter gap closers, but at some point sorcs shouldn't be able to use it anymore... then they get killed. As long as the sorc is getting killed, no problem..

Sorc gets away.. NERF!


There is no reason for the developers to entertain these changes when the entire discussion is based on someone using BE to gain range.

It's quite obvious that the ability was meant to give sorcs range. If the sorc decides to peace out, so be it..

A Nord and a Bosmer are the same height when the Nord sits down. But that does not mean they are the same height when the Nord stands up.

You say that "it's quite obvious that the ability was meant to give sorcs range". Well it is not only giving them range it's allowing them to leave any fight they want to. It far exceeds its intentions. So by your own words it is not working as intended. Putting the hyperbolic fix suggestions aside why resist it being fixed to work as intended?

Mykah

The sorc had no intention of escaping, he was kiting the NB to drain the NBs stamina, then chose to turn and fight when he thought the NB was low enough on stamina to CC him to death.

If the sorc had wanted to he could have easily escaped after the 4th BE, you can tell this was not his intention because he stopped to block, then stayed to fight. If he was trying to get away he would have taken the stun, broke CC for immunity, then BE away two last times while being untouchable while still retaining half his stamina, and being able to pot for another several BEs.

If he wanted to escape at the start of the fight he would have taken the first charge stun, broke CC, and BE 3 more times and be in the clear without even using a pot or a skill besides BE a total of 4 times.

This video is a perfect example of why BE needs at the very minimum a 20% of the mana pools casting cost.

NordJitsu

Armitas wrote: »

Well it is not only giving them range it's allowing them to leave any fight they want to. It far exceeds its intentions.

Sorry, is the ability named "Bolt Kite" or "Bolt Battle Positioning"????

Seems clear to me that putting the word "escape" in there makes it clear that escape is one of the intended functions. People are obviously going to use it for other things as well. I love to use it in a fight to play toro with all the shield charging bash spamming one trick ponies out there.

Again, you guys must be new to MMOs or something. High damage builds with low survivability and self healing usually do get mobility options.

In GW2 the warrior got Bull's Charge, Rush, Whirling Blade, ect. They could effectively out run any other class. Guardians on the other hand were the undisputed kings of bunkering, able to lock down an area and not die there.

That's the same dynamic going on in ESO right now.

The tanks that can't be killed are mad that the squishy bursty guys are able to run away from them. [Medium Armor and Heavy Armor Sorcs simply can't use it enough times, if you're having trouble catching a non-Light Armor sorc, you're just bad.] The complaints have nothing to do with balance.

Its 100% QQ.

Malmai

If there weren't that other guy you would demolished Sorc ... so i don't see any problem here you would be winner in any case, but must say that sorc wasn't bad at all.

Mykah

NordJitsu wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Well it is not only giving them range it's allowing them to leave any fight they want to. It far exceeds its intentions.

Sorry, is the ability named "Bolt Kite" or "Bolt Battle Positioning"????

Seems clear to me that putting the word "escape" in there makes it clear that escape is one of the intended functions. People are obviously going to use it for other things as well. I love to use it in a fight to play toro with all the shield charging bash spamming one trick ponies out there.

Again, you guys must be new to MMOs or something. High damage builds with low survivability and self healing usually do get mobility options.

In GW2 the warrior got Bull's Charge, Rush, Whirling Blade, ect. They could effectively out run any other class. Guardians on the other hand were the undisputed kings of bunkering, able to lock down an area and not die there.

That's the same dynamic going on in ESO right now.

The tanks that can't be killed are mad that the squishy bursty guys are able to run away from them. [Medium Armor and Heavy Armor Sorcs simply can't use it enough times, if you're having trouble catching a non-Light Armor sorc, you're just bad.] The complaints have nothing to do with balance.

Its 100% QQ.

Your whole argument is mute because this video clearly demonstrates the sorc using BE to kite the DKs stamina, not to escape.

Not to mention your claim that "Sorc is a low survivability class" is nonsense as a light armor sorc has amazing magic resistance which accounts the majority of PvP damage in the game. Nice try.

If the sorc wanted to escape he would have. With a 20% mana cost on BE if he wanted to escape he still could have.

Kolache

NordJitsu wrote: »

In GW2 the warrior got Bull's Charge, Rush, Whirling Blade, ect. They could effectively out run any other class. Guardians on the other hand were the undisputed kings of bunkering, able to lock down an area and not die there.

That's the same dynamic going on in ESO right now.

Disengaging from combat is not a group role. Escaping death is not something only a squishy player would want or need to do.

The only reason GW2 has questionable balance in WvW is because the PvP is balanced around SPvP and not WvW. Being a highly mobile warrior looks much more stupid in a cross-borderlands foot-race than it does in the 10-minute, objective-based, win/lose area that classes were balanced around playing in.

In a nutshell, less people would care about BE if they were fighting in a fish-bowl where fleeing meant actually losing a match.

xDonMega

Mykah wrote: »

The sorc had no intention of escaping, he was kiting the DK to drain the DKs stamina, then chose to turn and fight when he thought the DK was low enough on stamina to CC him to death.

If the sorc had wanted to he could have easily escaped after the 4th BE, you can tell this was not his intention because he stopped to block, then stayed to fight. If he was trying to get away he would have taken the stun, broke CC for immunity, then BE away two last times while being untouchable while still retaining half his stamina, and being able to pot for another several BEs.

If he wanted to escape at the start of the fight he would have taken the first charge stun, broke CC, and BE 3 more times and be in the clear without even using a pot or a skill besides BE a total of 4 times.

This video is a perfect example of why BE needs at the very minimum a 20% of the mana pools casting cost.

This is a perfect example of why the sorc should of just BE 4 times at the start of the fight just to get himself into a decent position..

That "kiting" he was doing was just delaying the inevitability of his death..

Armitas

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorry, is the ability named "Bolt Kite" or "Bolt Battle Positioning"????

Seems clear to me that putting the word "escape" in there makes it clear that escape is one of the intended functions. People are obviously going to use it for other things as well. I love to use it in a fight to play toro with all the shield charging bash spamming one trick ponies out there.

It is only known as bolt "escape" while unmorphed. After which it is called streak and ball of lightening. So if we make our case by semantics alone then we only have a potential case for the unmorphed skill, and neither of the two morphs.

NordJitsu

@Armitas‌

To be clear, you're still using Bolt Escape whether you pick Streak or Ball of Lightning. When you're discussing the ability as a whole, you usually use the base ability. If your problem is with one or the other morphs specifically, you should say so. Otherwise its assumed that Bolt Escape refers to all

Just like Pulsar is still Impulse, Streak is still Bolt Escape.

And obviously its not JUST semantics. The fact that they picked that name/word for the skill indicates that it was expected to be used in that way.

Armitas

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Armitas‌

To be clear, you're still using Bolt Escape whether you pick Streak or Ball of Lightning. When you're discussing the ability as a whole, you usually use the base ability. If your problem is with one or the other morphs specifically, you should say so. Otherwise its assumed that Bolt Escape refers to all

Just like Pulsar is still Impulse, Streak is still Bolt Escape.

And obviously its not JUST semantics. The fact that they picked that name/word for the skill indicates that it was expected to be used in that way.

People call it bolt escape as a locution, but that is not what they are referring too. So when you try to make a case of semantics you are referring to either the locution which is empty or the unmorphed skill.

To say they are the same is a case of merelogical essentialism rather than semantics. One can no longer say 'the skill says "escape" therefore escape without impunity is it's intent' because the skill doesn't not always say escape in all cases.

You would need to also make a mereological case to support that semantic case.

NordJitsu

@Armitas‌


I've explained rather thoroughly why mobility and escape are intended play styles, why they are balanced, how they are present in all MMOs, ect. ect. throughout the forum.

You're being a bit silly and hard headed here by focusing on the fact that morphing a skill changes its name.

The fact of the matter is, no intelligent/reasonable/honest person could deny that Escape seems to have been a clearly intended function of the skill.

Armitas

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Armitas‌


I've explained rather thoroughly why mobility and escape are intended play styles, why they are balanced, how they are present in all MMOs, ect. ect. throughout the forum.

You're being a bit silly and hard headed here by focusing on the fact that morphing a skill changes its name.

The fact of the matter is, no intelligent/reasonable/honest person could deny that Escape seems to have been a clearly intended function of the skill.

Silly? I'm trying to understand how a skill can be deemed balanced or imbalanced based on a semantic argument.

The question is escape from what? Escape from PvP? I can't imagine a person reasonably or honestly supporting that.

NordJitsu

@Armitas‌


And what I'm trying to explain to you is that you're the one trying to make it semantic.

Other people are talking about the intended use of the skill, which semantics only hint at. Even if it was just called "Bolt" the function of the skill makes it clear that its an escape ability (for instance, it requires no target.)

Armitas

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Armitas‌


And what I'm trying to explain to you is that you're the one trying to make it semantic.

Other people are talking about the intended use of the skill, which semantics only hint at. Even if it was just called "Bolt" the function of the skill makes it clear that its an escape ability (for instance, it requires no target.)

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorry, is the ability named "Bolt Kite" or "Bolt Battle Positioning"????

^This is a semantic argument as far as I can tell.

NordJitsu

@Armitas‌

You're doing that selective quoting thing again. That was not a serious argument. It was a cute sarcastic remark at the beginning of a rather long post that made the actual argument. Its an attention grabber and a topic setter.

Kraigan

NordJitsu wrote: »

I played a bursty warrior in GW2. I LOVE high damage and high mobility builds. Its just my style...

My warrior was built to get into a fight, utterly destroy one person, and then run away.

This explains a lot. I can't say I'm surprised. It is only to be expected that your views on bolt escape would be different than that of others who don't enjoy that playstyle.

NordJitsu

@Kraigan‌

Ya but what you fail to realize is that diversity in play styles is a GOOD thing.

Is it OP that a DK can sit behind his shield and pop Green Dragon's Blood to keep himself alive? Is is OP that a Templar with Channeling Focus and Lingering Ritual can be unkillable? Is it OP that a Night Blade can stay invisible for minutes at a time and walk around in the middle of an enemy zerg? I'm also a bit of an altaholic and I play these styles as well. Right now my alts are all fairly low level, but throughout Beta I tried many styles and many builds. Before long, I'll have a VR character of each class representing multiple play styles.

In case you haven't realized yet by the way, YOUR views are in the tiny minority. Someone did a poll and about 60% of respondents thought the skill was fine. Considering all the whining on this forum, I bet the percentage is MUCH larger in the general non-forum player base. Brian Wheeler also said that while they're looking at the skill, he doesn't see the problem.

By contrast there's about 5 people who seem to have a real issue with it. One of those has since admitted he was wrong and started calling me NordJitsu-san, since my advice has apparently helped him counter it.

The OP of this thread, one of the biggest QQ'ers, has apparently figured out how to counter it despite claiming its not possible. Say what you want (because lying is fun?) that Sorc was trying to get away. The only reason he turned was that he realized the Shield Charge could effectively prevent him from doing so. He had no idea that OP was out of stamina.

Nijjion

I miss DAoC... If you got into a fight you had to fight it out (well 95% of the time some skills on 10 minute CDs could get you away)... but it was Fight or Die... no running away like little girls.

XILoKoIX

Nord, our first encounter was ***. Seems since then we've almost always agreed

All of this is QQ, as i've said before, BE gets me away around 60% of the time. I don't quite think that's OP.

People scream nerf because they aren't good. Plain and simple.

Except in the case of vamp swarm, those were warranted, and it ended up being a bug!

NordJitsu

@XILoKoIX‌

First encounter? On forums or in game?

Raggok

XILoKoIX wrote: »

Nord, our first encounter was ***. Seems since then we've almost always agreed

All of this is QQ, as i've said before, BE gets me away around 60% of the time. I don't quite think that's OP.

People scream nerf because they aren't good. Plain and simple.

Except in the case of vamp swarm, those were warranted, and it ended up being a bug!

60% of the time. Other classes get away aound 0% of the time unless they are abusing vampire invisibility. But, by all means keep on thinking you are just better than everyone else at getting away because of ur skillz.

Raggok

Nijjion wrote: »

I miss DAoC... If you got into a fight you had to fight it out (well 95% of the time some skills on 10 minute CDs could get you away)... but it was Fight or Die... no running away like little girls.

Another game that had it right was Warhammer Online. Your movement speed got lower as your health got lower. There was no getting away from a close fight. You had to fight until one or the other of you were dead. I don't recall any *** escape mobility in that game.

Nooblet

Kevaliji wrote: »

Its cheap, sorcs are gonna hate it if it gets nerfed. Then they will die like the rest of us instead of having their "oh ***" escape.

Unless you're a tank, with charge, and pull-in, and talons, and hold your block button down like a pro. But ya... sorcs escaping is the current big problem with pvp balance... /smh

NordJitsu

Raggok, after that video you have zero ground to stand on.

I used to think you were just a bad player who was having trouble countering a skill.

Maybe you learned how to counter it through these conversations or maybe you knew how all along. I remember you saying that Shield Charge wouldn't work because they're hard to keep track of. I responded by saying "use tab target." Saw you doing that in your video.

Either way, I know now that you know perfectly how to counter it and that you're able to do so.

So at this point your complaints just look unfounded and frankly quite ridiculous.

Raggok

NordJitsu wrote: »

Raggok, after that video you have zero ground to stand on.

I used to think you were just a bad player who was having trouble countering a skill.

Maybe you learned how to counter it through these conversations or maybe you knew how all along. I remember you saying that Shield Charge wouldn't work because they're hard to keep track of. I responded by saying "use tab target." Saw you doing that in your video.

Either way, I know now that you know perfectly how to counter it and that you're able to do so.

So at this point your complaints just look unfounded and frankly quite ridiculous.

A lot of sorcs still get away from me and I'm sure I'm not alone. It is far easier for them to get away than it is to keep them from getting away. And no other class even comes close to their ability to escape.

NordJitsu

@Raggok‌

I have a similar problem. A lot of DKs are using Reflective Scales to reflect things at me.

Xsorus

Been a few fights where i've nailed a Sorc, got them down to less then 10% hp, and before I can swap weapons and hit them with flying blade or something, they're almost completely off my screen.

Pretty much have to live with it, Its about like Thieves Stealth in GW2.

Raggok

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Raggok‌

I have a similar problem. A lot of DKs are using Reflective Scales to reflect things at me.

Should probably just run away or something.