ESO Fight Autopsy: Invasion vs. Bolt Escape

Raggok

There is balance here between BE and invasion as a gap closer IF the sorcerer actually fights you. I have no problem with sorcs who use BE for positioning and to gain distance to cast. That is fine and it is balanced.

The problem are the sorcs that use BE to remove risk vs. reward from the game for themselves. I know some will point to this and say BE is fine, but keep in mind that this guy could have just left me in the dust at several points in this fight. The only reason he ends up dying is because he chooses to fight me rather than just run away.

Using this ability to be able to pick and choose which fights you stay in is just way too good. I'm not sure how you can fix this ability to punish the people who use it to troll without punishing the people who use it to fight.

In any case, it was a fun fight. The unedited fight is at the end of the movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfoNKUloPjU

Kevaliji

Its cheap, sorcs are gonna hate it if it gets nerfed. Then they will die like the rest of us instead of having their "oh ***" escape.

Raggok

Unfortunately, it seems fine for a 1v1 duel but it is really broken for just general AvA gameplay.

Nox_Aeterna

That is exactly the point.

The sorc can chosse to just run away, and the only class with a chance to get to them , and i repeat , a chance , is the NB.

That is the reason this needs to be changed , either they give other classes a skill to follow the sorcs , or they change the BE so that they cant just spam it to run away.

ruzlb16_ESO

First up, nice vid. Instructional, good skills used to counter and generally just good play. However, I disagree with your interpretation of what's going on to some extent.

TBH, watching it I'm dubious that he really could've left you in the dust after the initial few moments of the fight (and in those initial moments, he seems to be trying to do exactly that - and failing as you counter it every time). From around 4:30 onwards (around 30 secs into the chase in the real-time version, at more or less the exact point you run out of stam), you start to see him casting mage's fury and relying on other low-mana skills to engage; he's not got the mana left to unleash shard spam or chain BE (and he starts to bolt very sparingly, too, and stops popping his shield altogether). This is a sorc who's running dangerously low on resources (and who has almost certainly already popped a pot by this point).

In the vid, you mention that it's a duel between your stam and his majicka; you say that he's won it, yet from what I'm seeing he's managed one bolt escape beyond your stam running out and then he's sitting on around 15-20% mana. That's why he's using an execute skill that hits like a wet noodle on anything with >20% health (seriously, it's barely better than a light staff attack without the <20% detonation). He's short on mana and he's panicking, hitting you with any spell that he can afford - which is curse initially (costs less than BE), and after that pretty much just MF. This is also why he ends up popping Dark Exchange at the end rather than hitting you with any damage - a single MF at THAT point would likely have killed you, but he was scraping the barrel and had nothing left.

So the story I'm seeing here is more a sorc trying to use BE to get away, you countering it with a universally-available closer until he's got next to no majicka left to fight with, and then you killing him - even tho reinforcements have arrived. He's not so much choosing to fight as being chased down and having to defend himself. Which leads to the precise opposite conclusion from the one you draw - he's not getting to pick and choose his fight at all, because you're using the counter to BE properly.

Of course, we'd need to hear from the sorc in question about how his mana was in the fight and what his intentions were (if he can even remember the engagement). But from personal experience of playing a sorc and using BE in 1v1, I'd suggest you're overestimating his mana pool and his chance of a successful getaway, and possibly mis-reading his intentions, particularly when he starts double-bolting toward the middle of the fight.

Raggok

Hey,

At the point where I run out of stamina he stops and casts several spells on me and even bolt escapes again once I get to him. If he had used that magicka to just keep bolt escaping he would have easily gotten away from me right there.

What he was doing was trying to run me dry on stamina before fighting me. That is smart gameplay on his part. IMO this sorc knew what he was doing and was pretty experienced at doing it.

At the point where I run out of stamina, he just doesn't cast mage's fury on me. He casts shards, but I block it. I believe he also cursed me? And after he BEs he hits me with shards again. That is when he goes OOM. I haven't played sorc very extensively so correct me if I'm wrong on that. All of that could have been used on BEs. Two more BEs would have made him uncatchable for me at that point.

edit: At 4:29 he hits me with a shards cast (which I block) right before mage's fury. Right after that he hits me with what I believe is curse (the symbol)? He then BEs and hits me with another shard (with fragments proc) and another mage's fury.

I think that magicka could have been used to get away from me pretty easily but he wanted to kill me. :P

XILoKoIX

@ruzlb16_ESO‌ , You sir, are 100% correct.

If he were engaging you, he would have bolted through you, and around you, way more. If you watch the video, notice how he's almost constantly traveling away from you. That's defensive, not offensive.

Bolting is not 100%, i can probably get away with getting away from a huge zerg 60% of the time. NB, DK, and Sorc can all counter this. You all need to step away from this nerf mentality before all classes suck -_-

XILoKoIX

@Raggok‌

At some point in the fight, he decided you were countering his escapes and he would have to turn around and fight you. He was running dangerously low on mana and you were playing him very well.

Which is exactly why I think that the call for nerfing this skill is silly. Almost every class can counter it.

ruzlb16_ESO

He definitely curses you (but curse is actually quite cheap considering how powerful it is, if your enemy doesn't purge it); not sure about the shards, it looked like he started casting it once and then canceled it, dropped the curse and then MF spam. This guy clearly knew how to play a sorc; it's unlikely he'd have wasted the mana on MF if he had an alternative (which you can see through him NOT using it prior to that point - when he has the option, he goes for curse and shard).

It's pretty much what I'd have done in that situation tbh - BE is the most expensive skill on my bar by a fair margin, so when that runs out drop a shard or a curse. But you NEVER spam MF unless the enemy is <20%; it's just a waste of mana on a rather weak skill. Unless you're either panicking or there's no other skills on your bar lit up - or usually both. The way he's playing strikes me as a man hovering around 20% mana, just a little too low for a BE, and trying desperately to throw stuff at you while his mana pot take effect.

I usually run with BE, shard, curse, AOE root and MF on my bar, and BE and root are by far and away the most expensive of those. If I'm short on majicka, then BE and root will become unavailable first; then shard, then curse and finally MF (which I can cast with <5% mana in the tank). This leaves you throwing whatever you can afford at your pursuer. If you see a sorc spamming MF at you when you're at 80% health, you can pretty much bet he can't afford anything else at that moment - which is also why you get like 1 curse rather than a chain.

Raggok

Well, I'm not a mindreader but when he crossed the water he actually turned to face me. If he had just kept casting BE there he would have been well gone. The only thing I could hit him with at that range was the root but he could just BE through that (it only lasts 1.5 seconds).

Raggok

If you see a sorc spamming MF at you when you're at 80% health, you can pretty much bet he can't afford anything else at that moment - which is also why you get like 1 curse rather than a chain.

He cast shards, fury, curse, be, shards (fragment proc), fury.
Come on guys, he had plenty of magicka to get away from me there.

Now, I'll accept that _maybe_ he was thinking to himself that he wasn't going to be able to get away (not knowing that I was OOS) and decided to fight but he definitely had the magicka to get away from me if he had continued using BE.

NordJitsu

Fact of the matter is you don't need to change the ability to "punish people who use it to escape."

Escape is one of the intended uses of the skill.

Raggok

not sure about the shards, it looked like he started casting it once and then canceled it

He got the cast off, you can see the sparks fly off of my shield when I block it. Look at the combat log on the lower left of the screen at around 4:31.

The message where it says You BLOCKED took 144 is my block on his crystal shards cast. Right after that I get hit by his fury for 123 which was not blocked. This is undeniable stuff guys. It's right there in the footage.

Niffo

NordJitsu wrote: »

Fact of the matter is you don't need to change the ability to "punish people who use it to escape."

Escape is one of the intended uses of the skill.

So, a name change to go along with the nerf then?

Raggok

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Fact of the matter is you don't need to change the ability to "punish people who use it to escape."

Escape is one of the intended uses of the skill.

So, a name change to go along with the nerf then?

It's the roleplaying defense. Haven't seen that one yet. They should just probably change the name to Bolt.

NordJitsu

Meh. Not interested in getting into a big argument with you guys again, especially knowing how nasty and personal jobo likes to make things.

I'll just say that I enjoyed the gameplay shown in the video and thanks for making it.

It shows rather clearly that Bash and Invasion make up two of the many counters to Bolt Escape. You 100% shut that guy down using those two abilities. By Tab locking and charging, you're able to stay on top of him even when your Invasion doesn't apply the stun. That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

If anything, the guy turned around to face you because he realized he wasn't going to get away.

Raggok

ruzlb16_ESO wrote: »

If you see a sorc spamming MF at you when you're at 80% health, you can pretty much bet he can't afford anything else at that moment - which is also why you get like 1 curse rather than a chain.

Looks to me like it is just his common attack pattern. He's built muscle memory to use fury right after he casts shards (he does it twice). It probably works quite often on people in AvA but I have overcharged health and spell resist.

Niffo

NordJitsu wrote: »

Meh. Not interested in getting into a big argument with you guys again, especially knowing how nasty and personal jobo likes to make things.

I'll just say that I enjoyed the gameplay shown in the video and thanks for making it.

It shows rather clearly that Bash and Invasion make up two of the many counters to Bolt Escape. You 100% shut that guy down using those two abilities. By Tab locking and charging, you're able to stay on top of him even when your Invasion doesn't apply the stun. That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

If anything, the guy turned around to face you because he realized he wasn't going to get away.

Or he thought this was his chance to strike since he had worn his attacker down. Bash is getting nerfed next patch, so there's that "counter" gone. He had more than enough magicka to bolt away, considering the costs of all the abilities he used.

Raggok

NordJitsu wrote: »

Meh. Not interested in getting into a big argument with you guys again, especially knowing how nasty and personal jobo likes to make things.

I'll just say that I enjoyed the gameplay shown in the video and thanks for making it.

It shows rather clearly that Bash and Invasion make up two of the many counters to Bolt Escape. You 100% shut that guy down using those two abilities. By Tab locking and charging, you're able to stay on top of him even when your Invasion doesn't apply the stun. That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

If anything, the guy turned around to face you because he realized he wasn't going to get away.

Well, I think you've only been thinking about these kind of isolated 1v1 fights which I have already said that I have no issue with. The gap closer (invasion seems to be the best choice) and the gap creator seem pretty balanced here with a sorc that wants to fight. I think this sorc could have gotten away if he had really wanted to. Opinion, of course.

My issue has always been the absolutely crazy stuff that I've seen some sorcs escape from that no one else could possibly escape from. Look what I had to do just to stay on this sorc. Can you honestly see a NB, DK, or Templar getting away using class abiities alone if they try to run from me let alone a group of people?

An NB might have a chance if there is something he can LoS me with, but in an open field. I don't see it happening.

The sorc escapability is just too good relative to the other classes, IMO. It's so good that many people will be rerolling and playing sorcs because it gives them a decent chance of getting away from stuff that the other classes have no chance of getting away from.

NordJitsu

I think if you'd been fighting a high magicka NB running Immovable and Path of Darkness there is 0 chance you would have caught him, unlike this Sorc.

Niffo

NordJitsu wrote: »

I think if you'd been fighting a high magicka NB running Immovable and Path of Darkness there is 0 chance you would have caught him, unlike this Sorc.

If the Sorcerer had been running Immovable he wouldn't have been caught either. Why is it that all of your scenarios have Sorcerers with only 1 skill on their bar, while everyone else has everything at their disposal.

Raggok

NordJitsu wrote: »

I think if you'd been fighting a high magicka NB running Immovable and Path of Darkness there is 0 chance you would have caught him, unlike this Sorc.

Would be tough, but the NB might have some issues with Crippling Grasp. Anyway, I said class abilities and immovable isn't a class ability.

NordJitsu

Raggok wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

I think if you'd been fighting a high magicka NB running Immovable and Path of Darkness there is 0 chance you would have caught him, unlike this Sorc.

Would be tough, but the NB might have some issues with Crippling Grasp. Anyway, I said class abilities and immovable isn't a class ability.

Fair enough about Immovable, but it wouldn't be needed.

Crippling Grasp could be broken with a dodge roll. If he'd been running a bow, dodge roll would both break him free and move him even faster along his Path.

Still_Mind

Excellent vid. Left me with stuff to ponder on.

I'm a little surprised that the Sorc didn't have a secondary bar with Maneuver. Yeah, yeah, [snip], but I prefer not to give the satisfaction to 2-3 geared Veteran players who attack me when I've no support.

beravinprb19_ESO

Good video. Following your example, I need to get my block up faster so I can deal with the the bolt stun. My only objection is that, Invasion is arguably the best gap closer, due to the stun. Something like Critical Charge, for example, would have an even harder time keeping up with a Sorcerer. Regardless, I enjoyed the video a great deal, +1 from me.

ruzlb16_ESO

Watched it again this morning (I'm an EU player, so our discussion last night was at 4am lol). The guy is clearly trying to get away for the opening half of the fight - he casts nothing but BE, chaining it when he can, and usually away from you (except when he's trying to stun you to facilitate his escape). And you successfully run him down. I stand by my assessment of this vid showing that BE can be countered, rather than that it can't unless the sorc wants to fight.

One thing I will say is that it does highlight the clear advantage of majicka builds over stam ones, tho - if you have to rely on a stam closer to catch a majicka distance builder, the majicka guy has the advantage (and it's only due to skillful play that you counter that advantage - also, respect for opting to avoid bash abuse). I'd say that's the root of the rage here really; the universal closers are all stam-based and therefore have the inherent problems associated with that resource. I'd argue that's a case for re-evaluating certain skill trees and switching them to Stam (entire class trees on NB and DK would benefit from this, imo), partially to make stam-heavy builds more viable, and partly to make certain majicka builds less potent (having to split between the two stats would nerf certain DK skills without having to impact the skills themselves). But that's a bit of a digression and not really suited for this thread.

xDonMega

You have no problem with a sorc using bolt escape in combat to set themselves up... because you'll more than likely still end up killing them.

trahe

Bolt Escape reminds me of LOTRO Desperate Flight. I did become frustrated like the OP obviously is when my enemy disappeared instead of standing there and dying. I too thought it was a chicken **it thing to do. I always thought, "die with some dignity" but not everyone thinks like me. (shrug)

xDonMega

He was right on top of that sorc with a 22m gap closer.. sorc would of had to bolt way 3 times and then turn around to be able to get any dps out and that depends on how fast he could of closed the gap.

But after any bolts 3 times in a row he obviously is trying to run away and that's just unfair...

Armitas

trahe wrote: »

Bolt Escape reminds me of LOTRO Desperate Flight. I did become frustrated like the OP obviously is when my enemy disappeared instead of standing there and dying. I too thought it was a chicken **it thing to do. I always thought, "die with some dignity" but not everyone thinks like me. (shrug)

Wargs came to my mind. Though I suppose the skill plays out more like DF.

Raggok

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Good video. Following your example, I need to get my block up faster so I can deal with the the bolt stun. My only objection is that, Invasion is arguably the best gap closer, due to the stun. Something like Critical Charge, for example, would have an even harder time keeping up with a Sorcerer. Regardless, I enjoyed the video a great deal, +1 from me.

Yeah, I was using Teleport Strike as a gap closer before and it is far inferior to Invasion.