Should Khajiit and Argonians be able to choose their skeletal structures during Character Creation?

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Khajiit current boots don't have their toes covered and it'd be relatively easy to change them into a digitigrade style of paw-wear. Example:

An excellent example of what we're discussing and the way Khajiit footwear already has a generally correct style, White. Thank you for sharing.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

@Sleepydan‌

Thank you, Sleepydan, I appreciate that.

I'm glad to see the kind of turnout I've gotten with the thread thus far. Naturally, I'd like to see a more unanimous agreement -- but eighty percent of voters is nothing to scoff at!

What's more, even from those that disagree with the implementation, so far pretty much everyone has presented valid arguments with valid reasoning. It's refreshing to see a serious but cordial and civilized discussion!

GhostwalkerLD

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I'm all for it. I'm always in favor of more options to customize your character, especially with a race as (truly) varied as the khajiit. Personally I'd love for TES VI to FINALLY let us explore Elsweyr (as it and Blackmarsh are the only two places in the single player games we have not yet seen). But for ESO, even just simple things like customizing the tail length (i.e. for those of us who'd like to use those tufted ears and make a lynx type khajiit) or adding tufts on the back of the tails (for lion khajiit) would also add a lot more flair to the already wonderful felines.

natewook

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I personally think this is a good idea because it's brings more options character creation. And i think that more options to customize you're character would be good for RP, because then theirs a lot of deference between characters and mobs.

The_Drexill

No, I am NOT in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

There wasnt a "Is this serious? GTFO" option, so I went with no...

natewook

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Customizing the tail and ears sounds like a good idea"

GhostwalkerLD wrote: »

I'm all for it. I'm always in favor of more options to customize your character, especially with a race as (truly) varied as the khajiit. Personally I'd love for TES VI to FINALLY let us explore Elsweyr (as it and Blackmarsh are the only two places in the single player games we have not yet seen). But for ESO, even just simple things like customizing the tail length (i.e. for those of us who'd like to use those tufted ears and make a lynx type khajiit) or adding tufts on the back of the tails (for lion khajiit) would also add a lot more flair to the already wonderful felines.

"and punting an a mob in that lets you re customize you're character for like 2k would go good with this idea.

natewook

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I think that Khajiit needs some work because when i hunt khajiit mobs for a quest the mobs look like my character "my mane character is a khajiit" and that's because they're are like 20 viable types of khajiit you can have. they're are more viable types of Argonians but only like 10 more than khajiit. but this idea changes all that ware i can hunt khajiit mobs and they won't look exactly like my character and i think that khajiit should have the option to have long fur like this
anyway that is all i have to say for now.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

first off I would like to state that all argonians and khajitt should be digi.. (toe walkers) like pre-IV, this however would be difficult with armors and such, need special models, so I understand why they abandoned it, but its to bad.
secondly, some base-body-builds to represend the different sub species of the races would be nice to, if you look at a monitor lizard and a iguana for example, they have both a distinct visual style, now all look pretty much te same with just different 'hair'options
also, for argonians, different tail options, diffrent scale type options, more different adornment options, like now you can select 'hair'and 'face' adornment, but add a couple more bars so you can mix and match more, and such

so much possibilities of adding variation they could add

on another note, I was so dissapointed when I saw Senche were introduced as just tigers, I hoped they would have made them more mythical creaturs, cat like but not just a tiger

Gidorick

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Found this post, going to necro it because I think it's an important aspect of the game that needs to be added. I spoke about this choice in two of my posts

Khajiit Centric Update Suggestion:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/141710/suggestions-for-an-eventual-khajiit-centric-update/p1

Argonian Centric Update Suggestion:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/147221/concept-for-a-future-argonian-centric-update?new=1

Having this choice (as well as additional sliders and a greater variation to existing sliders) would go a LONG way into allowing players the freedom to create many of the sub-species of Khajiit and Argonian.

Unfortunately, I think this is one of those Fan-Wants that I think will never go fulfilled.

newtinmpls

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I work in a hospital, and frankly the Khajiit footwear looks like a fancy version of an Ace wrap. Which could theoretically fit on any foot.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

@Gidorick‌

So long as the interest continues to be steady and supported I wouldn't entirely rule out the possibility. It's nothing worthy of a major update in and of itself, but it could be slid in with another update that hits the table -- particularly if Player Customization is ever revisited for addition and improvement.

This is still very much a feature I am in favor of seeing added, and the good thing about it is that it doesn't detract from anyone that is indifferent to the concept. Choice is the key word in this regard. Pretty much everyone is in favor of more options during character creation -- and this would certainly be a unique one if it were ever implemented; not to mention yet again that it is very much supported in the lore.

It's a win-win across the whole board -- so long as it's something that can be done without detracting from other features.


@newtinmpls‌

Precisely so!

Gidorick

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I really hope so.

Also, I think the "hidden boots" are the way to go too. Have characters with digitigrade feet just not wear any boots but still have them equitable. Just hide the boots on the character. Kind of how we hide helmets. I'm sure this could be done with Costumes as well (with the exception of costumes that are polymorph)

zemtrizeb17_ESO

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I would welcome something more real look like digitigrade walk. But choosing between platigrade and digitigrade is less likelihood that they will implement it. Why? They would need to remake all armors. Twice amount of armors for foot to cover it. So to choose one option only between digitigrade or plantigrade I choose digitigrade. No options, just remake like in old elder scroll.

Resipsa131

No, I am NOT in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

From a practical standpoint no; you'd need separate racial motiffs for plantigrade and digitigrade. It would also be a pain in the rear to sell/buy items because they might not work on your character.

Ysne58

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I don't see this ever getting implemented, but I'm all for it.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Resipsa131 wrote: »

From a practical standpoint no; you'd need separate racial motiffs for plantigrade and digitigrade. It would also be a pain in the rear to sell/buy items because they might not work on your character.

@Resipsa131

I disagree on that point, actually; though I would welcome any corrections on the assumptions to follow because I would hardly myself an expert on the subject matter...

Yes -- to be clear -- this suggestion would require new skeleton structures (the base structure of in-game character models which dictates things like locomotion, and anchoring connections for items and so forth -- such as the placement of weapons on the character's person when sheathed or unsheathed) to distinguish the difference between plantigrade and digitigrade. The choice between either would be made during character creation in a manner similar to the way in which someone chooses their character's gender: with a button selection. There's really no way around that to my knowledge because the addition of a new body type would require new animation cycles for walking, running, crouching, jumping, and possibly several retouches to ensure that clipping and other visual glitches didn't occur. That is the difficult part, in my mind.

That being said, I very highly doubt that this would require anything in the way of new motifs or special items that only plantigrade or digitigrade characters could equip. While it could be implemented that way, it would be an entirely over-complicated and backwards way of approaching the situation. Take, again, my analogy comparing the choice of skeletons (digitigrade or plantigrade) to the player's choice on gender. Whenever you equip an item that item automatically detects things about the character that is equipping it. How tall they are, what the character's build is (skinny, muscular, rotund), what species they are (for any accommodations needed for tails and heads), and, most notably, what gender they are.

How this comes into play is that no matter what gender or physical body-type the player character has the items they receive, no matter how they receive them, always match to their character. You can freely trade items between male and female characters of any race, gender, or body-type and when you equip it it will always "fit" your character.

So, rather than having items that only one or the other could equip, items that exist would only be required to "detect" the skeleton of the player character, and "morph" accordingly -- in the exact same manner that they already do for gender, race, and body-types. This is because items in video games (particularly armor) don't have pre-determined features. What appears visually is dependent on who is equipping the item.

The other aspect of this would require that new visuals be created for already existing armor pieces chiefly legs and boots) so that they could "fit" the new skeleton types.

Now, I admit, this all sounds like a significant undertaking to accomplish, and it would need to be approached with a serious mindset or else the end-result could be of inferior quality; but I can already point to examples where amateur modders have made mods that do exactly what the above describes for games like Skyrim, Oblivion, Neverwinter Nights, and so forth.

Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Neverwinter Nights

I will start by saying I mean no offence to the modding community -- I have seen exceptionally high, production quality material come out of the modding and independent communities... But if amateurs can, by themselves or in small groups, accomplish the above then there is no point of argument to say that a professional company like Bethesda or Zenimax could not accomplish the same in higher quality with significantly less effort required.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

This may not directly pertain to the thread's discussion -- but as the original poster, I think it's alright to make an exception this one time.


In a way, this relates to what was discussed in my original post -- and since -- in regards to the various breeds of Khajiit.

This screenshot shows three of the distinct Khajiit varieties: My Templar Khajiit Ajara'Kiir, her Senche-raht mount, and the "Striped Senche-Panther" vanity pet, which I believe resembles the description of the Pahmar-Raht.



And just so I can make the excuse of having a mildly more on-topic point to this post... This image, which I unfortunately do not have the artist to source but I can assure that this is not my own work, is another very fine example of digitigrade Khajiit and additionally shows how footwear could be implemented.

(Note the similarities of footwear between this image, and what my Khajiit is already wearing in-game.)

newtinmpls

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I would really like this.

Spectre45

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

This has bothered me since Oblivion. I would really like to see this implemented.

Kragorn

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Clearly the answer is 'yes' and even more clearly it'll never happen. I was appalled when I first saw the 'beast race' physiology and posture, ZOS lamely made a single skeleton and overlaid it with a texture, not even the slightest attempt to make them remotely plausible .. topped off by giving female lizard MAMMARY glands FFS!

ZOS: lizards aren't mammals for a reason, elementary school biology 101.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

@Kragorn

Physiologically speaking, you are correct. However, you can't place all the blame of Zenimax for the design. Specifically regarding your (very true) criticism of Argonian females having breasts. This, too, is something that has existed ever since The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, so it could more directly be attributed to Bethesda. (During The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Argonian females actually didn't have breasts... or any obvious outward distinctions from the males.)

Personally, that's something I've always been able to overlook. However, you are technically correct. Argonians are ovoviviparous reptiles, they lay eggs... so logically they shouldn't be required to nurse their young, and thus the existence of mammary glands wouldn't be a requirement. Though, one could make the (somewhat flimsy and as of yet unsupported) argument that Argonians have mammaries due in some part to their unknown origins. Or that they perhaps serve some alien purpose unique to Argonians, and they merely resemble mammalian mammaries/breasts.

Lest we forget: magic does exist in The Elder Scrolls series.

Kragorn

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

@Marik_Vash I'll admit to not taking into account the precedent for Argonian females, I could be prepared to overlook that in the case of Oblivion considering its age and budget in comparison with ESO .. yeah, I'm trying to defend Bethesda for the crime I'm accusing ZOS of perpetrating, I reserve the right to be inconsistent.

TBH I could overlook that if it were possible via the 'chest size' setting to effectively remove them .. for cats as well.

newtinmpls

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I think someone mentioned platypus' laying eggs and nursing their young. There are also critters (some types of aphids come immidiately to mind) that sometimes lay eggs and sometimes give live birth depending on weather conditions.

These are the kinds of things I think about when wondering about some of the oddities of Khajiit/Argonian physiology.

On the other hand I'd like to see Sloads in game too.

For the latter - they are sorta bipedal, and then I presume that they would wear stuff enchantet to support a bipedal shape (because really, how else is it that atronachs have humanoid forms).

WhitePawPrints

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Kragorn wrote: »

Clearly the answer is 'yes' and even more clearly it'll never happen. I was appalled when I first saw the 'beast race' physiology and posture, ZOS lamely made a single skeleton and overlaid it with a texture, not even the slightest attempt to make them remotely plausible .. topped off by giving female lizard MAMMARY glands FFS!

ZOS: lizards aren't mammals for a reason, elementary school biology 101.

There have been other threads about the breasts on female Argonians that I have seen a while back. Unfortunately, to make Argonians more closely resemble reptiles is not a popular idea. Behind the accusations of the mythical "feminists movement" and the gay slandering, it comes down to that the gaming community wants large breasts on everything. From what I hear the female Char in Guild Wars 2 had received a similar response back when it released.

Even female Khajiiti shouldn't have unnaturally large breasts in my opinion, but I can only imagine the pure rage on this forum if that were the result.

Mordack

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Actually IIRC, the Ohmes-raht are the Khajiit from Daggerfall, not the Khajiit from Oblivion onwards.




I'm not surprised that these types of Khajiit aren't in the game (I mean, could you imagine the nerd rage from certain people if they saw non-catlike Khajiit?) but it would be cool if the various forms of Khajiit were available.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I voted YES but I know Oblivion will freeze over before ZOS do it, they clearly created the 'beast' races as simply alternate skins for a reason, same reason they gave Argonian females BREASTS: it was lazy and saved time, at the expense of resulting in something that's laughable, even Morrowind Khajiit looked more cat-like than ESO's do even though they toow were obviously bipeds.

If mobs like Werewolves can have both biped and quadruped animations, so should the beast races.

Turelus

It just made me think of this video.

http://www.theonion.com/video/sponsored-groundbreaking-video-game-lets-players-c,36385/

Scheneighnay

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't care, really, if it ever comes or not, but I do prefer my so-called "beast races" - ie, people who evolved from digitgrade things, not apes or, say, bears - to be digitigrade where feasible.

That being said, I remember reading somewhere - presumably a book I found in Skyrim, that seemed to be written by some sort of high elf. I guess he was trying to make an attempt at being a politically correct, "we are all the same" kind of guy - the book claimed that Khajit are some sort of deformed elf (and so should be accepted by elves as elves).

Such slander, I don't even ... (grumble grumble)

But then, looking at shots of Arena, they don't look very cat-like at all. They look like kids on their way to an anime convention. I really should install it and try it out, though I know I won't last 30 seconds in that game.

I would reroll just to have a digititigrade Khajit, yes, whether he could wear boots or not.

They're also like that in daggerfall.
I believe that's a sub-specie of khajiit that look extremely human, as would be the excuse for changing them.

WhitePawPrints

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Scheneighnay wrote: »

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't care, really, if it ever comes or not, but I do prefer my so-called "beast races" - ie, people who evolved from digitgrade things, not apes or, say, bears - to be digitigrade where feasible.

That being said, I remember reading somewhere - presumably a book I found in Skyrim, that seemed to be written by some sort of high elf. I guess he was trying to make an attempt at being a politically correct, "we are all the same" kind of guy - the book claimed that Khajit are some sort of deformed elf (and so should be accepted by elves as elves).

Such slander, I don't even ... (grumble grumble)

But then, looking at shots of Arena, they don't look very cat-like at all. They look like kids on their way to an anime convention. I really should install it and try it out, though I know I won't last 30 seconds in that game.

I would reroll just to have a digititigrade Khajit, yes, whether he could wear boots or not.

They're also like that in daggerfall.
I believe that's a sub-specie of khajiit that look extremely human, as would be the excuse for changing them.

Those two breeds are called Ohmes, and were the first seen Khajiit. Ohmes are basically Bosmer, that tatoo themselves so you can basically make a Bosmer and pretend your of the Khajiiti race. And as others mentioned, the Ohmes-raht can look a bit... rediculous.

From Elder Scrolls Wiki:

Ohmes
Similar in many ways to the Bosmer, although generally of lesser stature. In order to avoid being mistaken as one of the Bosmer many Ohmes tattoo their faces to resemble a feline-aspect. The Ohmes is the most common form seen outside of the province of Elsweyr, taking advantage of other races' preference to their appearance to serve in positions of ambassadorship and trade. It is possible that the Ohmes are the breed seen across Tamriel at the end of the fourth century of the Third Era.
[edit]Ohmes-raht
Similar to the race of men, save for their tails and short, light-colored fur, the Ohmes-raht may easily be mistaken as men at a distance. Unlike the many other species of Khajiit who walk like cats upon the balls of their feet, the Ohmes-raht walk upon their heels. The Ohmes-raht are most likely the breed found in Hammerfell and High Rock in the early fifth century of the Third Era.

Victus

If Zeni would implement Invisible High Heels it would solve this issue!

Edit: Stiletto Pumps of the Seducer