Should Khajiit and Argonians be able to choose their skeletal structures during Character Creation?

Marik_Vash

For the sake of simplicity, we'll make this a poll... Since there is not category for game discussion or suggestions, however, hopefully it can fit in this category well enough.

First of all, let me start by explaining that this is NOT intended to be a discussion as to the importance or priority of such a proposed implementation. The purpose of this poll is meant to, in a single and concise place, compile the views of the community on this matter in a clear and empirical manner -- to whatever ends that may lead.

You may think of this poll as equal parts petition, equal parts general discussion. Whichever strikes your fancy.


Now, onto the point...

Those of us that have followed the Elder Scrolls universe for some time, specifically those of us that have played since the "Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind" will note that, ever since TES IV: Oblivion, Khajiit and Argonians have undergone a rather significant change.

For those here that are newer to the franchise this change is that, between TES III and TES IV, Argonians and Khajiit suddenly began walking with a plantigrade stance and having a plantigrade bone structure -- whereas prior to TES IV: Oblivion they both had digitigrade stances and skeletal structures.

This poll highlights this fact, and proposes an OPTIONAL choice during Character Creation that allows for players of either race to choose their preferred stance.


Now for some questions...

What is the difference between plantigrade and digitigrade?

Simply put, creatures that have a plantigrade stance and bone structure walk on the flats of their feet. This includes human-beings, so if you need a diagram of such, look no further than a model of the typical human skeleton and body!

Creatures that are digitigrade, by comparison and in contrast, walk upon the balls of their feet and their toes. (Thus the term digitigrade, as in digits.) This can most commonly be seen in the hind legs of animals like dogs and cats in real-life. However, just below I've provided an example of how this works in bipedal characters. (Thanks and credit goes to T.K. for this artists' study. I have found it very helpful in the past, and I also find it fitting given that he was originally inspired by the Beast-Races of TES: III.)

[Digitigrade Study][/center]


What is the argument as to why this should be implemented?

The simplest answer? Because it is expressly supported by the lore of the Elder Scrolls universe, and because it would offer an additional layer of optional customization for those of us that care to have it.

It is a little-known fact that there are several different variations of Khajiit and Argonians in the Elder Scrolls Universe. Little is known about Argonian variations other than the obvious in some being plantigrade and some being digitigrade, but the difference is much more pronounced in Khajiit lore, which I will delve into now.

As can be read here, there seventeen known breeds of Khajiit -- the morphology of sixteen of which are tied directly to the phases of the two moons of Nirn, Masser and Secunda. What kind is born depends on the phases of the moons on the night of their birth. The seventeenth is the Mane, which can only be born during a special lunar eclipse.

Without going into too much detail as to the nature of this relationship, there are two breeds of Khajiit that have been playable in Elder Scrolls games in the past: the Suthay-raht and the Ohmes-raht. (Other breeds, such as the Alfiq, Alfiq-raht, Senche, and Senche-raht can be readily seen in TESO as NPCs.)

The Ohmes-raht are widely the most-known breed to players of the Elder Scrolls series. They have been featured in TES games ever since TES IV: Oblivion as both player and NPC races. Visually, they are identical to the Suthay-raht in every possible way... except for the structures of their skeletons past their waists.

The Suthay-raht are described as being just as numerous as the Ohmes-raht, and we saw examples of this breed of Khajiit on the island of Vvardenfell back in TES:III Morrowind. These Khajiit, as mentioned above, resemble the Ohmes-raht in every facet... except for their digitigrade stances.


What about the other breeds of Khajiit mentioned above? Why implement one additional breed and not some of the others as well?

As Ri'saad of the trade caravans of Skyrim said: "An astute question." To which, there is an answer.

If you read over the descriptions of the Khajiit breeds you will notice that, of those of which we have knowledge of, many of them have to do with size, muscle mass, and fur coloration. Essentially meaning the only thing separating a Cathay-raht character from an Ohmes-raht character would be physical height and fur pattern -- all of which can already be customized in TESO's customization for Khajiit characters. So, in that fashion, you already have the ability to make the vast majority of the other breeds of Khajiit.

The exceptions are the Alfiq, Alfiq-raht, Senche, Senche-raht, Pahmar, and Pahmar-raht. Although all breeds of Khajiit are sentient and intelligent, these six are all quadrupedal and incapable of speech. For obvious reasons, they would not make for good player-characters in the "Elder Scrolls: Online".


Too long? Didn't want to read through all of the above?

There is a lore-based foundation for the implementation of an optional choice in character creation for digitigrade or plantigrade skeletons for the Khajiit and Argonian races. Show your support, or lack thereof, of its implementation into the game to the community and potentially Zenimax by voting either yea or nay.

Please feel free to offer explanation as to your stance on the matter!

AlexDougherty

No, I am NOT in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

The options will just get people complaining that they chose the wrong skeleton, and that their Argonian moves wrong. Plus all the animation would need to be redone, raising costs, which is bad especially when they haven't fixed the bugs yet.

Syntse

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I also remember that in Morrowind where Khajiit was digitigrade they were not able to wear shoes.

There was unique item from quest or so ... boots of speed which I would so wanted to have for bit faster movement but no

Nox_Aeterna

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Honestly , i never really even minded this , but if people actually care about it , why not?

Still , i do hope they only spend time of the devs on such fine details in the future.

ArgonianAssassin

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Yes, I would like to be able to choose between digitigrade and plantigrade, but I don't think too much dev time should be spent on it, I'd rather have seen this implemented from the start but I feel it's too late for that now, and should only be done when there's time for it, and if ever implemented free re-customization should be offered to Argonian and Khajiit players who would've rather had this option but wasn't available when their character was made.

ElSlayer

No, I am NOT in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I think there is more important things to do. And will always be.

ArgonianAssassin

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

ElSlayer wrote: »

I think there is more important things to do. And will always be.

Just because there's more important things at the moment doesn't mean the option should never be added, how short-sighted of you.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

ElSlayer wrote: »

I think there is more important things to do. And will always be.

AlexDougherty wrote: »

The options will just get people complaining that they chose the wrong skeleton, and that their Argonian moves wrong. Plus all the animation would need to be redone, raising costs, which is bad especially when they haven't fixed the bugs yet.

Quite true. However, that's not the point of this thread. Every change to an already launched game is a cost -- and as far as that goes, they are already working on recreating and reworking many of the existing animations.

But I didn't create the thread to discuss something that needed to be added or was imperative to gameplay -- it certainly is by no means imperative, and there are more important things for Zenimax to work on at the time being.

As I said in the original post, the point of the thread is whether or not if cost and priority were taken out of the equation the community would be in favor of such an addition.

As for people complaining about making the wrong choices during character creation... People already do that when creating their characters, and people that care enough about it either re-roll their character (because it would most likely be a new character) or they visit a NPC in-game with a re-customization service. (Which, is something not yet in-game, but a feature that will undoubtedly be added in the future.) Though, it's not as though you would not be able to see the changes of such an addition, were it to be added. Like any feature during character creation, the previewer would demonstrate what the slider or toggle-switch changed.

dodgehopper_ESO

I think the problem or limitation has more to do with the artwork, and the difficulty of making certain gear work with that artwork. This is a large reason why the digitigrade species in Morrowind couldn't wear shoes (to my great frustration since I discovered Enchanting was my favorite thing to do).

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think the problem or limitation has more to do with the artwork, and the difficulty of making certain gear work with that artwork. This is a large reason why the digitigrade species in Morrowind couldn't wear shoes (to my great frustration since I discovered Enchanting was my favorite thing to do).

That would be the biggest hurdle to overcome, perhaps aside from any new animations that would have to be made.

However, if we're willing to entertain the idea of new designs for footwear, the solution is actually quite simple -- from a concept perspective, at least. (It might be another matter from the actual design perspective.)

If you pay attention to Khajiiti footwear that already exists in the game, you'll notice that none of the actually have enclosed feet -- weather it's light, medium, or heavy armor. They all leave the heels and toes exposed. In fact, if you pay closer attention still, you'll notice that the "armor" actually stops at the ankles, and the feet themselves are wrapped in footwraps of a cloth or leather material.

In other words, the solution for odd shaped feet... Is to only have armor from the knees to the ankles, with a simple wrap between the heel and toes.

It's a simple solution on paper, but I confess don't have the specific knowledge of design to know how difficult it would be to implement such a redesign of already existing footwear for such.

Sleepydan

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I'm all for little things like this being added to the game.

Fix the bugs first of course, but after that I would rather have things like this added than new content

Syntse

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Marik_Vash wrote: »

In other words, the solution for odd shaped feet... Is to only have armor from the knees to the ankles, with a simple wrap between the heel and toes.

Not bad idea at all. However this would mean maybe that Khajiits can only wear Khajiit style shoes I guess. And Argonians only Argonian style.

Either way I could live with both solutions... restricted to one style or even no shoes at all.

Not that this overall would be must to have feature but just a nice thought and touch.

isengrimb16_ESO

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I don't care, really, if it ever comes or not, but I do prefer my so-called "beast races" - ie, people who evolved from digitgrade things, not apes or, say, bears - to be digitigrade where feasible.

That being said, I remember reading somewhere - presumably a book I found in Skyrim, that seemed to be written by some sort of high elf. I guess he was trying to make an attempt at being a politically correct, "we are all the same" kind of guy - the book claimed that Khajit are some sort of deformed elf (and so should be accepted by elves as elves).

Such slander, I don't even ... (grumble grumble)

But then, looking at shots of Arena, they don't look very cat-like at all. They look like kids on their way to an anime convention. I really should install it and try it out, though I know I won't last 30 seconds in that game.

I would reroll just to have a digititigrade Khajit, yes, whether he could wear boots or not.

Chomppa

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I actually loved my Khajiit and Argonian back in Morrowind , but was disappointed with them in Oblivion , Skyrim ,and now Elder Scrolls because their uniqueness was taken out . Now they're like humans with animal heads and tails .

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Syntse wrote: »

Not bad idea at all. However this would mean maybe that Khajiits can only wear Khajiit style shoes I guess. And Argonians only Argonian style.

Either way I could live with both solutions... restricted to one style or even no shoes at all.

Not that this overall would be must to have feature but just a nice thought and touch.

Either that, or they would have to create special models of each of the armor motifs specifically for Khajiit and Argonians that used a similar approach.

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't care, really, if it ever comes or not, but I do prefer my so-called "beast races" - ie, people who evolved from digitgrade things, not apes or, say, bears - to be digitigrade where feasible.

That being said, I remember reading somewhere - presumably a book I found in Skyrim, that seemed to be written by some sort of high elf. I guess he was trying to make an attempt at being a politically correct, "we are all the same" kind of guy - the book claimed that Khajit are some sort of deformed elf (and so should be accepted by elves as elves).

Such slander, I don't even ... (grumble grumble)

If you read up on Khajiiti mythology, actually, there is a foundation for this train of thought. Khajiit are, at least by some, thought to be a type of Mer.

This goes back to accounts of Pelinal Whitestrake, the Divine Crusader and leader of the Elven Pogrom, who during one of his crusades against the Ayleid slavemasters of Cyrodiil crossed over into what is modern-day Elswyer, and proceeded to slaughter the Khajiit in vast numbers -- because they so resembled Elves that he believed they were, in fact, a cousin to the Ayleids.

As I mentioned above, there are many different breeds of Khajiit. One of which includes a kind that is more or less identical to your typical Elf, but with cat ears and tails.

The reason for all of these different breeds goes back to the origin of the Khajiit, as according to their religion. To put it simply, the Khajiit are reported to have actually been created by the Daedric Prince Azura (known to the Khajiit as Azurah).


Here's an excerpt from their mythology that supports this.

"Amidst the darkness, surrounded by her children, Fadomai realized her death was near and set the moons, Jone and Jode, in the skies to guide her children and protect them from Ahnurr's wrath. She gave Nirni her "greatest gift", proclaiming that she would give birth to as many children as Fadomai had. Nirni was pleased because Azurah, with whom she routinely squabbled, had been left with nothing. Protected by the Lunar Lattice, the children of Fadomai left, save for Azurah. Into the silence and void their absence caused, Azurah approached her mother and was then given her gifts in the form of three secrets. She was told to take one of Nirni's children and change them, making them the fastest, cleverest, and most beautiful of creatures, naming them the Khajiit; second, that they must be fashioned as the best climbers, to climb upon the winds of Khenarthi's breath and set Masser and Secunda aright, lest they fail; lastly, that the Khajiit must be the best deceivers, able to hide their true nature from others. Then Fadomai died, and Azurah left to join her kin."

"Nirni approached Lorkhaj, whom she asked to create for her children a dwelling; he did so, and yet the Great Darkness in his heart forced him to deceive his siblings so that they were trapped in the new place with Nirni. Some managed to escape death and become the stars, and those who remained punished Lorkhaj by tearing out his heart and hiding it deep within Nirni, so that he would be with her whom he had done the most harm. Thus amongst the new world of Lorkhaj's creation, Nirni came to give birth to her children, who were many, but wept bitter tears for her favorite - the forest people - who did not know their proper shape. It was at this time that Azurah came forth and comforted her, taking some of the forest people and placing them in the deserts and forests, where she fashioned them in many forms, one for each purpose they might need, and having done so, named them the Khajiit, teaching them the secrets entrusted to her, and binding them to the Lunar Lattice."

"In speaking the secrets, the first was heard by Y'ffer, who told Nirni of Azurah's deed. Nirni, in retribution for her changed, and now lost, children made the deserts hot and sands biting, and filled the forests with water and poison. To separate her beloved children from those of Azurah, she allowed Y'ffer to change those who remained so that they would always be of the mer, and never beasts, and named them Bosmer. From that moment forth, the two were eternally separated and, as with their makers, were bound in animosity one with the other. In this fashion, the Khajiit explain not only their origins, but their bind to the moons and conflict with the Bosmer."

WhitePawPrints

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I whole-heartedly support this idea. In fact, I posted this very poll back during the Beta making the exact same argument.

I don't need to post all my thoughts on this subject because they all have already been said.

It has been brought up that the footwear was not usable in Morrowind but that is an easy fix since digitigrade footwear was done for the Worgen in World of Warcraft and I see no reason why not implement similar ideas for the Khajiit or Argonians. Khajiit really have the only unique footwear because they're not enclosed, but all the other boots practically look the same. So why not add some digitigrade style footwear? I have theorized on different footwear for digitigrade Khajiit for a very long time and there are lots of interesting possibilities.

The skeletal structure addition would work very well in my opinion because there are some anomalies with my Khajiit that I would like to fix. Most noticable when riding a horse, is that the Khajiit tail is coming out of the wrong part of his or her back. Anyone else notice that their tail comes out a few centimeters too high up their spine? It's like they have an extra few vertebrae.

The animation wouldn't be too difficult to add either since Werewolves are digitigrade.

This would add a uniqueness to the race that I would personally love. My Khajiit is light on his feet, and I would love to get the real feel of that by having him be digitigrade. Orcs can be plantigrade; they're heavy. But not my Khajiit.

Certainly there are a lot of bugs to fix but I hope this improved model will eventually makes its way into the game through a content update.

Chatoyancy

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Ignoring feasibility and importance and such, I would love to have this -- anything to make a more cat-like Khajiit.

I would also love to make an Alfiq, but I can dream.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Chatoyancy wrote: »

Ignoring feasibility and importance and such, I would love to have this -- anything to make a more cat-like Khajiit.

I would also love to make an Alfiq, but I can dream.

Hehe. I wouldn't hold my breath for an Alfiq character -- an inability to speak and a lack of opposable thumbs would more or less make that an impossibility. Though maybe an illusion transformation or disguise (similar to the skeleton "disguise") for roleplay purposes?

If not, there are always roleplay forums and threads like the ones my guild hosts.

That being said I don't think digitigrade would be too difficult to implement, actually. Animation and equipment would probably be the hardest bits -- but it has been done before in older games, so it could be done here.

Of course, the issue is always the existing workload. It would take work to get it done correctly, and while I would very much like to see the addition in near future, there are certainly other projects and focuses that are more important for the time-being.

That still doesn't change my stance, however. I would recreate my Khajiit Nightblade in a heartbeat if the option became available.

ArRashid

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

In a VERY distant future maybe... there are thousands of more important issues right now.

Sev

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

This is something I'd love to see, though I doubt it will happen. The trend these days seems to be to make all races use the same body model and just tack on different heads.

Overall I'd like to see some clarification on Khajiit body types, as there seems to be a lot of conflicting information. Senche in TESO are shown as dumb beasts rather than a type of quadrupedal Khajiit, which contradicts earlier descriptions. Is this an isolated case, or has the entire concept of Khajiit body types being tied to the moons been scrapped?

(Also not sure that your description of playable Khajiit as Ohmes-raht is correct. All descriptions of Ohmes-raht I've seen say they have man-like faces, and I'm quite sure I've heard it said that the playable Khajiit from Morrowind onwards are all Suthay-raht.)

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Sev wrote: »

(Also not sure that your description of playable Khajiit as Ohmes-raht is correct. All descriptions of Ohmes-raht I've seen say they have man-like faces, and I'm quite sure I've heard it said that the playable Khajiit from Morrowind onwards are all Suthay-raht.)

@Sev

It is a bit conflicting, and yes I'm aware of the description of the Ohmes-raht as being the Khajiit supposedly largely Mer in appearance, excepting the presence of feline traits such as ears and tails.

For instance, it's known, or is at least has been thus far, that the differences between "raht" and "non-raht" breeds are their stature. Suthay and Suthay-raht, for instance, are described as being identical, except the Suthay-raht are larger.

This understanding runs aground a bit when you examine the Ohmes and Ohmes-raht, however. To quote directly from my sources (Primarily UESP.net, and other lore compilations.)

"Similar in many ways to the Bosmer, although generally of lesser stature. In order to avoid being mistaken as one of the Bosmer many Ohmes tattoo their faces to resemble a feline-aspect. The Ohmes is the most common form seen outside of the province of Elsweyr, taking advantage of other races' preference to their appearance to serve in positions of ambassadorship and trade. It is possible that the Ohmes are the breed seen across Tamriel at the end of the fourth century of the Third Era."

While the Ohmes-raht are described as:

"Similar to the race of men, save for their tails and short, light-colored fur, the Ohmes-raht may easily be mistaken as men at a distance. Unlike the many other species of Khajiit who walk like cats upon the balls of their feet, the Ohmes-raht walk upon their heels. The Ohmes-raht are most likely the breed found in Hammerfell and High Rock in the early fifth century of the Third Era."

Here, the differences are a bit conflicting, if we take the standard relationship into account. The Ohmes and Ohmes-raht should be identical, excepting size. However, the Ohmes are described as being Bosmer-like, while the Ohmes-raht are described as being covered in short fur.

The key point, however, is that the Ohmes and Ohmes-raht are the only breeds of Khajiit that are specifically described as being plantigrade, as opposed to other breeds that are digitigrade. Which supports that the Khajiit from Oblivion onwards being Ohmes-raht.

And as for the Suthay-raht.

"Similar in height and build to the race of man, the Suthay-raht are one of the most common breeds of Khajiit. Their coloring ranges from dark brown and orange, to light yellow, both with and without stripes and spots. Suthay-raht are often referred to as "Ja'Khajiit" (meaning "kitten") by those of other races; this appellation often strikes the Khajiit as odd, said title being one of their names for Mehrunes Dagon. The Khajiit encountered on Vvardenfell are Suthay-raht, as well as the Khajiit found on Stros M'Kai near the end of the Second Era."

This indicates that the Khajiit encountered in Vvardenfell are Suthay-raht, and we know with certainty that the Khajiit in TES: III Morrowind were digitigrade.

As for the Senche. Yes, at first glance it would appear that they are of lesser intelligence than the other breeds. However, it's a difficult matter to judge, as we can't hold a conversation with them one way or another.

It's possible that the Senche simply choose to lead simplistic lives, as lore would suggest they are beasts of burden by their own free will. However, I know for a fact that I have seen Senche-tigers "employed" in the Dominion's military forces. Specifically encountered in the Ebonheart Pact's Shadowfen region.

Sev

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Marik_Vash wrote: »

As for the Senche. Yes, at first glance it would appear that they are of lesser intelligence than the other breeds. However, it's a difficult matter to judge, as we can't hold a conversation with them one way or another.

It's possible that the Senche simply choose to lead simplistic lives, as lore would suggest they are beasts of burden by their own free will. However, I know for a fact that I have seen Senche-tigers "employed" in the Dominion's military forces. Specifically encountered in the Ebonheart Pact's Shadowfen region.

I take it you haven't played through the Dominion zones? You encounter wild Senche throughout Valenwood who will attack you on sight, and a Bosmer hunter attempting to track and kill a particular cat as a trophy. There's also a few quests involving a Khajiit with several trained Senche, and nowhere are they presented as anything other than trained animals used for guard duty and pest control.

There's also an in-game book on them: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sugarbelly

Either these are just a species of animal that happens to be called a Senche, or Senche-as-Khajiit has been ret-conned.

WhitePawPrints

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Sev wrote: »

Marik_Vash wrote: »

As for the Senche. Yes, at first glance it would appear that they are of lesser intelligence than the other breeds. However, it's a difficult matter to judge, as we can't hold a conversation with them one way or another.

It's possible that the Senche simply choose to lead simplistic lives, as lore would suggest they are beasts of burden by their own free will. However, I know for a fact that I have seen Senche-tigers "employed" in the Dominion's military forces. Specifically encountered in the Ebonheart Pact's Shadowfen region.

I take it you haven't played through the Dominion zones? You encounter wild Senche throughout Valenwood who will attack you on sight, and a Bosmer hunter attempting to track and kill a particular cat as a trophy. There's also a few quests involving a Khajiit with several trained Senche, and nowhere are they presented as anything other than trained animals used for guard duty and pest control.

There's also an in-game book on them: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Sugarbelly

Either these are just a species of animal that happens to be called a Senche, or Senche-as-Khajiit has been ret-conned.

I too wondered about this. The Senche breeds, and Alfiq breeds, are all supposed to be intelligent like the other Khajiit. They're just incapable of speaking, or (obviously) wielding weapons and armors. Granted, the Battle-Senche likely have armor placed on them but they can't place it on themselves.

I do think an NPC mentioned somewhere on Auridon that some sort of event caused for these Senche to lose their mind to their beast nature. However, for as many as there are in the regions of Valenwood and Reaper's March, I really think more sane Senche should be added and this distinction to be made more pronounced.

Still_Mind

No, I am NOT in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

No. Too much work (an entirely new set of player character animations) to appease a small fraction of the community. ZOE has other priorities that affect broader audience.

Artis

@Marik_Vash, thanks, nice read
I have a question to you: was M'aiq the Liar the Suthay-raht or the Ohmes-raht? I don't remember for sure, but as far as I understand, the changed his model and he was just like every other khajit. Does it mean, he changed his breed?

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

@Artemis

Well, I suppose it really depends on which M'aiq the Liar you are referring to.

For those not in the know, M'aiq the Liar is a bit of an Easter Egg that has appeared in each Elder Scrolls game ever since Morrowind. He appears in random places throughout the game and makes humorous and/or unintentionally witty and sometimes "Fourth Wall" breaking comments in regards to the new game mechanics, features, and popular player-requested content.

(Such as commenting on mounted combat for Oblivion, as it was a feature often talked about prior to Oblivion's release when Bethesda announced that there would be horses in the game, but no fighting from horseback.)

"I do not wish to fight on horseback. It is a good way to ruin a perfectly good horse... which is, to say, a perfectly good dinner." ~ M'aiq the Liar


However, each M'aiq the Liar -- at least as far as lore is concerned -- is either a direct descendant or ancestor of a previous M'aiq the Liar. This is, at least, how the developers explain how he keeps popping up despite the passage of many, many years.

So... Yes, you are correct. As with all other Khajiit in Morrowind, M'aiq the Liar was digitigrade; so, therefore by my understanding, he was a Suthay-raht. In comparison the M'aiqs in Oblivion, Skyrim, and now TESO are all plantigrade -- making him Ohmes-raht ever since Oblivion by my understanding.

The change is actually quite possible, assuming the knowledge we have regarding the Khajiit breeds and their relations to the moons hasn't been quietly retconned by the developers. Because Khajiiti breeds are influenced directly by the phases of the moons, theoretically any Khajiit breed can have a fertile litter with any other Khajiit breed. They are the same species, after all. Which breed is born out of a union between two Khajiit depends on the phases of the moons on the night of their birth -- so it has nothing to do with the breeds of the mother or father.

(Naturally this brings with it some curious, and potentially disturbing, questions regarding intra-breed relationships when the Senche, Pahmar, and Alfiq are taken into account...)

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

@Still_Mind‌

I certainly won't argue against there being more important implementations to make, as there certainly are. However, I'm not certain I'd consider it a small fraction that would welcome the addition.

While it certainly can't be taken as an indication of the entire community, as there are those in the community that simply don't bother with the forums or feel inclined to comment on things such as this (evidenced by the fact that ALL polls historically have more views than votes or comments), various polls -- including my own -- would suggest that Khajiit and Argonians are among the top three most popular races behind Dunmer and Bretons. Of the people I have talked to, very few have been opposed to the idea so long as it doesn't significantly detract from higher-profile projects.

In fact, the only argument I have seen against the implementation has been in regards to other projects being more important. Your own included, in fact. A more than valid argument -- but one that would suggest the community is, in large, not opposed to the idea in and of itself.

This very poll, while obviously not drawing a particularly large discussion with only forty-five votes and therefor not to be taken as an indication of the feelings of the entire community, would nevertheless suggest that the percentage of those that would be in favor of the implementation outweighs those that disagree.

Additionally and in point of fact, the majority of those that are in favor of the implementation are indifferent one way or the other, but are in favor of it if it's something people want to see; rather than simply being Khajiit or Argonian enthusiasts.

WhitePawPrints

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Khajiit current boots don't have their toes covered and it'd be relatively easy to change them into a digitigrade style of paw-wear. Example:



Khajiit-style boots can easily be converted into this digitigrade style. I believe the Argonian-style boots are the same and can easily be converted. The other styles would just require a small change of removing the toe-end of the boot, but hopefully they'd get a little more creative than that.

I honestly do not understand why someone would oppose this idea. Content does not have priority over bugs and balance and that is clearly obvious, but this suggestion is for content.

Sleepydan

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I certainly hope the devs read and act on this sensible request. This thread is a very well explained, troll free environment with essentially unanimous support. It is a step in the right direction.

Moonscythe

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't care, really, if it ever comes or not, but I do prefer my so-called "beast races" - ie, people who evolved from digitgrade things, not apes or, say, bears - to be digitigrade where feasible.

That being said, I remember reading somewhere - presumably a book I found in Skyrim, that seemed to be written by some sort of high elf. I guess he was trying to make an attempt at being a politically correct, "we are all the same" kind of guy - the book claimed that Khajit are some sort of deformed elf (and so should be accepted by elves as elves).

Such slander, I don't even ... (grumble grumble)

But then, looking at shots of Arena, they don't look very cat-like at all. They look like kids on their way to an anime convention. I really should install it and try it out, though I know I won't last 30 seconds in that game.

I would reroll just to have a digititigrade Khajit, yes, whether he could wear boots or not.

There is a Khajit book in Skyrim stating that the Khajit are elves. It also makes quite clear what all Khajit know. They are superior beings.

I think digitigrade made both Khajit and Argonians look clumsy in Morrowind when they should be graceful so the animation would have to be improved. On the other hand, I do think the beast races should have clothing that reflects the nature of their hides i.e. less human-like coverings for fur and scales.

The_Sadist

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

As someone who will probably never play a Khajiit or Argonian, I'm all for it! Though I feel there are more pressing issues to focus on first (namely balancing, bug fixes and implementing other content).