Should Khajiit and Argonians be able to choose their skeletal structures during Character Creation?

c.p.garrett1993_ESO

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I do not play as either race.
However, I believe it would be highly beneficial to those that do and add to the experience for other players. I would love to see a variety in the beast races, rather than just seeing yet another Khajit/ Argonian.

I do, however, believe it is not a priority. Patching various issues in fixes in the game come first, new content comes as a close second, and any minor requests come last.
I would like to see this implemented but there's simply not the time or resources to do so at this time.

Gan Xing

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

I also want to be able to customize my tail as a Khajiit. I want a big fluffy tail!

leshpar

No, I am NOT in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

As much as I love digitgrade legs and I love seeing anthro animals walking on them, I have to say that TES3 was an anomoly in the elder scrolls franchise. In every other game (TES1, 2, 4, 5) Argonians and Khajiit had plantigrade legs. I loved how they looked in TES3, but even going backwards to Daggerfall they did not have that. So this isn't a new thing, it was more of Morrowind had a one off thing.

So, for the elder scrolls online, I am going to have to say no, these races should have plantigrade legs to stick with established lore.

All of that said, if they do add in the option, I am changing my argonion to walk on digitgrade legs.

Robo_Hobo

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

My interpretion is that, in Arena, the playable Khajiit was an Ohmes. In Daggerfall, it was an Ohmes-Raht (had a tail, whereas Arena didn't). In Morrowind, it was the Suthay-raht, as known because of Jobasha. That's the general consensus it seems, but I actually think the playable Khajiit in Oblivion and Skyrim aren't Suthay-raht's, but Cathays. Nowhere in the games directly if I recall are they called Suthay-rahts in those two games. In my mind Cathay's could be the plantigrade cat-like larger Khajiit form - a bit longer fur, built for battle whereas the Suthay's are more lithe and stealthy (though Khajiit in general are naturally better at stealth anyway, so even Cathays are still better at it than most races).

Hmm, I'd continue, but I gotta head to work. Just gonna post this then.

jritza

No, I am NOT in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

This kind of seems like an extremely petty thing to argue. It's like complaining about having bendy straws for Capri Sun packages in comparison to non-bendy straws.

Seriously guys it's just their feet. Considering animations would have to be reworked for two specific races and you would hardly see the feet anyway, I doubt it really would matter.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

leshpar wrote: »

As much as I love digitgrade legs and I love seeing anthro animals walking on them, I have to say that TES3 was an anomoly in the elder scrolls franchise. In every other game (TES1, 2, 4, 5) Argonians and Khajiit had plantigrade legs. I loved how they looked in TES3, but even going backwards to Daggerfall they did not have that. So this isn't a new thing, it was more of Morrowind had a one off thing.

So, for the elder scrolls online, I am going to have to say no, these races should have plantigrade legs to stick with established lore.

All of that said, if they do add in the option, I am changing my argonion to walk on digitgrade legs.

It's true, this is something that we've only seen in Morrowind -- but the established lore actually supports the existence of both plantigrade and digitigrade for the Khajiit and Argonians. As mentioned previously, it may be that this has been quietly retconned and swept from the canon -- but the continual appearance of lorebooks from the games that established these facts suggests otherwise.

As disappointing as it would be, if Bethesda and Zenimax confirmed these facts to no-longer be canon -- by establishing their new guidelines in some in-game manner such as revised lorebooks or so forth -- that would be the end of the discussion from a logical standpoint. But, that has yet to be the case.

I agree, the chances of this being added to the game seem like a long shot, and I'm certainly not holding my breath waiting and it's certainly not keeping me from enjoying the game... But, that doesn't stop it from being something that I -- and many others, apparently -- would like to see.

jritza wrote: »

This kind of seems like an extremely petty thing to argue. It's like complaining about having bendy straws for Capri Sun packages in comparison to non-bendy straws.

Seriously guys it's just their feet. Considering animations would have to be reworked for two specific races and you would hardly see the feet anyway, I doubt it really would matter.

It's not really a complaint so much as it is a feature that (many) people would like to see. It would be petty to argue over it or claim the game is somehow bad for the simple lack of something like this -- but that isn't the point of this thread in the slightest.

The game is entirely playable as it stands, and the beast-races generally look just fine as they are. I agree, something like this certainly isn't a priority of things to be added to a game, but in essence it isn't any different than saying you'd like to see new emotes, new and refined animations, new customization options, or the ability to revisit character customization after the character creator. None of these things are essential to the game itself, but they are features that people want -- and they are features that Zenimax has already touched on. (Note that just recently a lot of the animations received a total rework, anyway. So it's not as though it's something entirely out of their way.)

The entire premise of this is to allow for the option of player choice. Choice that is supported by the lore just as much as our already present ability to give our Bosmeri horns, or to give our Bretons the pointed ears that reflect their Elven heritage. Admittedly those options are "easy" and less involved, but nonetheless it's the case.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

My interpretion is that, in Arena, the playable Khajiit was an Ohmes. In Daggerfall, it was an Ohmes-Raht (had a tail, whereas Arena didn't). In Morrowind, it was the Suthay-raht, as known because of Jobasha. That's the general consensus it seems, but I actually think the playable Khajiit in Oblivion and Skyrim aren't Suthay-raht's, but Cathays. Nowhere in the games directly if I recall are they called Suthay-rahts in those two games. In my mind Cathay's could be the plantigrade cat-like larger Khajiit form - a bit longer fur, built for battle whereas the Suthay's are more lithe and stealthy (though Khajiit in general are naturally better at stealth anyway, so even Cathays are still better at it than most races).

Hmm, I'd continue, but I gotta head to work. Just gonna post this then.

That's a very interesting opinion. We know that the Cathay and Cathay-raht are built stronger than their Suthay and Suthay-raht counterparts -- which would be supported by their being plantigrade as a plantigrade skeletal structure is more suited to bearing weight.

I'll have to look into this in my spare time and see if I can't find evidence of what breed of Khajiit is specifically depicted in Oblivion and Skyrim. If they are meant to be Cathay or Cathay-raht, that would go a long way in explaining some of the discrepancies of appearance between the Ohmes/Ohmes-raht and what we've seen in Oblivion and Skyrim.

eventide03b14a_ESO

No, I am NOT in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

The problem is that they will have to redo every animation for both. That will require time and resources that can be better spent elsewhere on the game. Let me make this clear, this is a much bigger time investment than the OP is suggesting and there are much bigger problems we need to deal with.

Marik_Vash

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that they will have to redo every animation for both. That will require time and resources that can be better spent elsewhere on the game. Let me make this clear, this is a much bigger time investment than the OP is suggesting and there are much bigger problems we need to deal with.

@eventide03b14a_ESO

I agree entirely. And I'd point out that no-where have I given any kind of estimate as to what kind of an investment this would be for Zenimax to undertake. In fact, several times throughout the thread I have explicitly stated that I can't give an estimate because it falls outside of my area of expertise.

That being said, it has been done before -- by independents and professionals alike. The resources exist, and the solutions -- on their face-value -- are straight-forward. I fully submit that this isn't something that is a necessity or even a priority; but it's nonetheless an option that many people would like to see for the flavor it adds and that would in no-way impact those people who prefer what already exists or who are indifferent to the matter.

To restate to my continual point since it has been a while since the original post: this should never come at the expense of more important projects. But, nevertheless, it is something that I would very much enjoy seeing.

Robo_Hobo

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Marik_Vash wrote: »

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

My interpretion is that, in Arena, the playable Khajiit was an Ohmes. In Daggerfall, it was an Ohmes-Raht (had a tail, whereas Arena didn't). In Morrowind, it was the Suthay-raht, as known because of Jobasha. That's the general consensus it seems, but I actually think the playable Khajiit in Oblivion and Skyrim aren't Suthay-raht's, but Cathays. Nowhere in the games directly if I recall are they called Suthay-rahts in those two games. In my mind Cathay's could be the plantigrade cat-like larger Khajiit form - a bit longer fur, built for battle whereas the Suthay's are more lithe and stealthy (though Khajiit in general are naturally better at stealth anyway, so even Cathays are still better at it than most races).

Hmm, I'd continue, but I gotta head to work. Just gonna post this then.

That's a very interesting opinion. We know that the Cathay and Cathay-raht are built stronger than their Suthay and Suthay-raht counterparts -- which would be supported by their being plantigrade as a plantigrade skeletal structure is more suited to bearing weight.

I'll have to look into this in my spare time and see if I can't find evidence of what breed of Khajiit is specifically depicted in Oblivion and Skyrim. If they are meant to be Cathay or Cathay-raht, that would go a long way in explaining some of the discrepancies of appearance between the Ohmes/Ohmes-raht and what we've seen in Oblivion and Skyrim.

I know this kind of throws a wrench in my previous post - I already knew long before hand of this quote, I was going to mention it in it but had to go whilst typing so yeah. But here's a quote from a Zenimax developer from a Q&A before ESO was released:

"Will the Khajiit players in The Elder Scrolls Online also get a choice in sub-species, or will the default still be Suthay-raht? I know that they are the most common breed, but is there any more back-story as to why every Khajiit you meet in Vvardenfell, Cyrodiil and Skyrim are Suthay-raht? Do the others never leave Elsweyr? - By Brandy Dills

Among the Khajiit, the race of feline humanoids who originate from Elsweyr, the Suthay-raht are indeed the most common breed, and at launch, all player-character and non-player-character Khajiit in ESO will be Suthay-raht. Now, will you glimpse more Khajiit sub-species in ESO in the future? Only time will tell!"

You could take that as proof that ESO, Oblivion, and Skyrim Khajiit are Suthay-rahts, but...I still don't think so. Even if it's not yet determined, I think it would be a better route of explanation. After all, the concept of the Khajiit having different forms came about because they wanted the Khajiit to look more feline between Arena and Daggerfall, then Daggerfall and Morrowind in the first place, it wouldn't be the first time they'd use mechanics/gameplay imposed decisions to work in a more interesting story element, like the Miracle of Peace.

Besides, it would make Suthays and Cathays more different than just "they're taller and bigger", as well as mean we've been able to play as four different types of Khajiit instead of three.

newtinmpls

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Victus wrote: »

Edit: Stiletto Pumps of the Seducer

Oh yes .... I want this!!

newtinmpls

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

Gan Xing wrote: »

I also want to be able to customize my tail as a Khajiit. I want a big fluffy tail!

And by all the Daedra, whoever animated that tail did NOT Have a cat. The movement is all wrong. <grumble grumble ... cuss>

WhitePawPrints

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that they will have to redo every animation for both. That will require time and resources that can be better spent elsewhere on the game. Let me make this clear, this is a much bigger time investment than the OP is suggesting and there are much bigger problems we need to deal with.

Animations need to be reworked to refine the digitigrade style for Khajiit in Elder Scrolls online and it is not a tremendous task that game developers would have to focus heavily on. New animations are constant in a game like Elder Scrolls Online.

What has Elder Scrolls Online seen?
Craglorn introduced a ton of new animations. New creatures all required unique animations. Dungeons had new bosses that required unique animations and ability animations. New environment required new animations.
Players have noticed that their abilities have changed animation a few times. The werewolf has also received a lot of changes with their abilities and animations (specifically the run-on-all-fours spring). Combat has received numerous animation refining and upgrades. New emotes required animation changes on player controlled characters.
Trials and pledges added new content, and thus new animations. The delve changes... well, those worked with a lot of animations that already exist in the game but they required refining much like anything else.

Refining animations to match a new environment or action is something that is very common. The game has obvious much larger glaring issues to be focused on but it has been mentioned very often that this is something that would be ideal to have, not a priority. I use the mod in Skyrim to make my Khajiit digitigrade on that game, and I would like for the similar option in this game. That mod adds a much more elegant feel to my Khajiit since he seems much more capable of being light on his paws, opposed to the plantigrade version.

seanvwolf

Yes, I am in favor of the option to choose between plantigrade and digitigrade skeletal structures for Khajiit and/or Argonian characters during Character Creation.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think the problem or limitation has more to do with the artwork, and the difficulty of making certain gear work with that artwork. This is a large reason why the digitigrade species in Morrowind couldn't wear shoes (to my great frustration since I discovered Enchanting was my favorite thing to do).

Not entirely certain that is the case here since helmets fitting on variously shaped heads is something they consider and try to work out. Stances wouldn't change the costuming much but would impact animation of walking, running, dodging, dodgerolling, getting struck, and certain skills which change the external appearance (bound armor, for instance). But once the skeletons are done, that's it. Just a few more edits would satisfy those stances, same as what helmets already go through.