Time to speak about balance.Shield bash spam.

Ragnar_Lodbrok · April 2014

Rhythmic wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

And leave sword and shield the weakest weapon in the game? You do realize it has crap for attacks?

You still dont get it?
You can throw away your sword,and play with shield only,because of shield bash ridicoulus burst damage.

You don't get you are the ONLY one in this thread arguing for a nerf.

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO · April 2014

"Time to speak about balance, shield bash spam..."

*facepalm*

Are you serious?

Suggesting nerfs to powers you & everyone else has had less than two weeks to learn & implement tactics for or against?

...I knew this would happen, I knew as soon as people hit 10 & were in PvP mode they'd want to start altering every fraking power in the game to match their particular playstyle.

Noth · April 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Prospero_ESO wrote: »

Tweek wrote: »

What you need to understand is, this isn't OP at all. It is what One handed and shield was meant to do.

Dude, i have seen people attacking from stealth with shield bash one shotting people, this is one of the most ridiculous skills together with bolt escape. There is no question that the offensive part of the skill has to be adjusted.

And leave sword and shield the weakest weapon in the game? You do realize it has crap for attacks?

It's not meant to be an offensive weapon set. It is meant to be a tank weapon set. Hence it has a taunt (that can be morphed for a really nasty debuff), 3 CCs, and passives that focus on defense. It should not be hitting as hard as the other weapons, but also allow more survivability.

bytestream · April 2014

First of all Shield Bash doesn't do tons of instand damage you can't defend against. It is, if skilled, a rather effecient way to turn your Stamina into damage, but that's it.

And, from PvP point of view, there has to be a skill like that that allows dedicated tanks to be a real threat because otherwise tanks don't matter in PvP. In ESO tanks can't take as much beating as they can do in other games, they don't have skills that allow them to not get destroyed by multiple players in seconds, they can't taunt players, they can't reduce their damage and they also don't have unbreakable AE CC.
That "design flaw" results in a situation where tanks are worthless in PvP unless they can dish out a serious amount of damage as well. And Power Bash allows them to do exactly that, at least against single targets.

In addition to that Power Bash is only an issue for roles a tank is supposed to hard-counter anyways. If you are playing a DD you are supposed to be roflstomped by a tank, they are the ones that are designed to hard-ounter you. MMORPGs, especially the ones that focus on large scale group PvP like ESO, are not balanced around 1v1 situations.
If you are playing a so-called glass cannon and the majority of your skill slots is used for offensive instead of defensive skills than you have no business going face-to-face with a tank. Your job is to go after the healers or maybe other glass cannons but you have to avoid tanks or tanky characters at all cost.

Elvikun · April 2014

Rhythmic wrote: »

Elvikun wrote: »

16 agree? Me and 17 people disagree with you, therefore I'm right and your thread is invalid.
I guess you can see why people don't like "arguments" along those lines, it's prolly better to never even mention exactl number of nameless people agreening.

On a serious note tho, as someone said, this is rather extreme "one trick pony" - it's really easy to avoid, even if that means just running. If you keep jumping on the shield, well, then I'm not sure what to say. Not to mention the shieldbasher is essentially dead when they meet 2 people at once.

Admittedly, it could use (and probably should get at some point) a little bit of tweaking, BUT it's important to keep in mind this isn't supposed to be competitive PvP 1v1 game, when tweaking anything. This "gimmick" is not particularly great or OP outside of that. Tho it's a murder for people who don't pay attention, even in groups, which I may actually like.

Sorry i cant seriosly talk with ppls who think 1button kill is fine.

Well, I see your argument somewhat, erm, streamlined and shortened over time to "You disagree, you are wrong!". Your response just made me think you got killed badly and immidiately went to forums to vent, as it happens with many "OP" threads.

Again, I think the part as to when can anyone bash should be revisited, because stealth bash is in my humble opinion inherently stupid and there might be a little issue with charge-bash but, you are making it sound as if all shield bashes ever hit for 3000 and were completely unavoidable, which is just not the case.

Rhythmic · April 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

You don't get you are the ONLY one in this thread arguing for a nerf.[/quote]

Open your eyes ,and read the thread before posting.

I'd say,only persons who use shield bash spam argue against me and my arguments.

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO wrote: »

"Time to speak about balance, shield bash spam..."

*facepalm*

Are you serious?

Suggesting nerfs to powers you & everyone else has had less than two weeks to learn & implement tactics for or against?

...I knew this would happen, I knew as soon as people hit 10 & were in PvP mode they'd want to start altering every fraking power in the game to match their particular playstyle.

1.I am vr2.
2.I am hanging in cyrodiil and sologanking since level 10 (march 31).
3.I have 4years competive PvP experience from game,with(possibly) most hardest and competive PvP system.World of...game we dont name here.
4.And yes i believe i can argue and tell about obvious imbalance,when i have tryed MANY ways to defeat it,with 2 different classes,with different weapons and playstyles,while having a decent PvP exp from ESO and...that game.
5.And i every person with vr3 or more,which i duo gank with(ex WoW and SWTOR players),tell me same things about shield bash.That things include 1 common word.That word is : "broken".

Tweek · April 2014

Elmojito1000eb17_ESO wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Its called tactics, get behind him flank him etc. If your pissed because your getting stomped 1 v 1.......

I have 3 characters that use shields.

One of them has no skill points invested in any active skills, all into passive.

It is very powerful indeed, i do not even use my weapon at all with this character.

I am not saying, it needs a nerf, but for you to say "tactics" is just silly.

You can charge into the enemy, and keep bashing and deal huge damage.

It needs to be investigated is what i am supporting, it does more damage than a two handed character of mine with all attributes into stamina.

I don't think this is correct I use a dps calculator(Warlegend HUD Addon) and the two hander is about x1.6 more effective than shield bashing. As per damage per second....which is about right.

No need to nerf the only offense move tanks/one handers have.

Also if it is nerfed as said above, low slash and puncture need their damages boosted(dramatically) and stamina requirements lowered(somewhat)

xodaNoreshb16_ESO · April 2014

Sooo:
If someone sneaks up on you, they can kill you. Sounds about right to me.

Also, you do know that if you hit someone blocking they lose stamina? Quite a bit of it too? When they run out, they can't get out of CC, victory! (not quite, with potions and some skills, but still...)

If you pvp without some kind of escape/OH ***! skill... I think you are approaching pvp with the wrong mindset. People will try to do sneaky stuff to you, often.

People who block, move slowly (atleast slower than you), if they stop blocking, you can CC.

I don't think shield bash is a problem, if you pay attention.

But that is just me, I could be wrong, it has happened. Once. O_o

bytestream · April 2014

Rhythmic wrote: »

5.And i every person with vr3 or more,which i duo gank with(ex WoW and SWTOR players),tell me same things about shield bash.That things include 1 common word.That word is : "broken".

So, again, the people that are supposed to be hard-counterd by tanks have problems dealing with Shield Bash. Sounds to me like it is working as intended.

If you are the typical ganker roaming around you should be avoiding tanks not trying to kill them unless you clearly outnumber them.

KerinKor · April 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

What is it with people asking for nerfs. Do you know how many skill points it takes to set that up? Its a one trick pony much like bolt escape.

Standard PVP QQ, sadly it's now started in this game too as it was inevitably going to.

Those who are here for the PVE and detest PVP will now see their beloved characters changed beyond recognition when ZOS try and attempt to pander to them and alter/nerf skills which are perfectly fine in the PVE world.

This will fail, as in all other MMOs in history which had PVP failed to achieve 'balance' and stem the QQ. In this ultimately futile attempt PVEers will be collateral damage as they are in WOW, Rift, GW2 (ESPECIALLY GW2), etc.

/sad

Rhythmic · April 2014

Im killing ppls with my 42level tank(using shieldbash spam),faster than i'm killing ppls with my vr2 nighblade with 2h.
Only one tank talent cause that problem,which should be redesigned/nerfed , because it's to alot of burst damage.
That is the issue.

Savinder · April 2014

I think that we should all be thankful that there is no dueling system and that the PvP is not designed around 1v1s: the forums would be inundated by "nerf this" threads otherwise.

Tweek · April 2014

xodaNoreshb16_ESO wrote: »

Sooo:
If someone sneaks up on you, they can kill you. Sounds about right to me.

Also, you do know that if you hit someone blocking they lose stamina? Quite a bit of it too? When they run out, they can't get out of CC, victory! (not quite, with potions and some skills, but still...)

If you pvp without some kind of escape/OH ***! skill... I think you are approaching pvp with the wrong mindset. People will try to do sneaky stuff to you, often.

People who block, move slowly (atleast slower than you), if they stop blocking, you can CC.

I don't think shield bash is a problem, if you pay attention.

But that is just me, I could be wrong, it has happened. Once. O_o

+Agree

Tweek · April 2014

bytestream wrote: »

Rhythmic wrote: »

5.And i every person with vr3 or more,which i duo gank with(ex WoW and SWTOR players),tell me same things about shield bash.That things include 1 common word.That word is : "broken".

So, again, the people that are supposed to be hard-counterd by tanks have problems dealing with Shield Bash. Sounds to me like it is working as intended.

If you are the typical ganker roaming around you should be avoiding tanks not trying to kill them unless you clearly outnumber them.

+Agree

Also want to add if your build is getting destroyed by tanks using shield bash(lol)....make a new build. You can re-spec.

Rhythmic · April 2014

bytestream wrote: »

Rhythmic wrote: »

5.And i every person with vr3 or more,which i duo gank with(ex WoW and SWTOR players),tell me same things about shield bash.That things include 1 common word.That word is : "broken".

So, again, the people that are supposed to be hard-counterd by tanks have problems dealing with Shield Bash. Sounds to me like it is working as intended.

If you are the typical ganker roaming around you should be avoiding tanks not trying to kill them unless you clearly outnumber them.

From my MMO PvP experience:
Having one class/spec/playstyle which can be countered only by "outnumbering" will lead to peoples pick that class/spec/playstyle untill it fixed.We will see 50% of game population being tanks in couple of month,if that shieldbash burst will not be redesigned.

Im dont care about my 1v1'ing,but if game would develop in that way(1 button kills),it will lose alot of PvP community.Probably the best part of it.

People's trying to "predict my mad feelings" using extrasensoric powers,but only thing i care about is interesting dynamic PvP,which could be MUCH better,if 1 button kills would not exist.

Again: Tanks are fine shield bash is not.

Increasing shield bash GCD(global cooldown) would be a good solution.So u cannot spam anyone to death for 2sec charge stun.

Zeeed · April 2014

First increse damage of other skills then nerf,. If they first nerf theen GL on finding ANY tanks fior pve as at the minute building aggro without SB is *** impossible !!! It is only skill that does any damage...

Mojomonkeyman · April 2014

bytestream wrote: »

First of all Shield Bash doesn't do tons of instand damage you can't defend against. It is, if skilled, a rather effecient way to turn your Stamina into damage, but that's it.

And, from PvP point of view, there has to be a skill like that that allows dedicated tanks to be a real threat because otherwise tanks don't matter in PvP. In ESO tanks can't take as much beating as they can do in other games, they don't have skills that allow them to not get destroyed by multiple players in seconds, they can't taunt players, they can't reduce their damage and they also don't have unbreakable AE CC.
That "design flaw" results in a situation where tanks are worthless in PvP unless they can dish out a serious amount of damage as well. And Power Bash allows them to do exactly that, at least against single targets.

In addition to that Power Bash is only an issue for roles a tank is supposed to hard-counter anyways. If you are playing a DD you are supposed to be roflstomped by a tank, they are the ones that are designed to hard-ounter you. MMORPGs, especially the ones that focus on large scale group PvP like ESO, are not balanced around 1v1 situations.
If you are playing a so-called glass cannon and the majority of your skill slots is used for offensive instead of defensive skills than you have no business going face-to-face with a tank. Your job is to go after the healers or maybe other glass cannons but you have to avoid tanks or tanky characters at all cost.

So, if I follow you logic correctly, no one is hardcountering the tank - leaving it as the master role. Sorry, a game ruled by players maxing out their defensive stats to overcome their inability to avoid damage through reaction time and awareness is boring as hell.

I strongly oppose your (imo) made up pvp trinity philosophy that tanks role is to hardcounter glass-cannons by pure nature. Skillful play and softcounters should be able to overcome any predefined outcome of a fight. Smashing one button is not exactly what I`d consider skillful play, tho.

Best regards

xodaNoreshb16_ESO · April 2014

Rhythmic wrote: »

bytestream wrote: »

Rhythmic wrote: »

5.And i every person with vr3 or more,which i duo gank with(ex WoW and SWTOR players),tell me same things about shield bash.That things include 1 common word.That word is : "broken".

So, again, the people that are supposed to be hard-counterd by tanks have problems dealing with Shield Bash. Sounds to me like it is working as intended.

If you are the typical ganker roaming around you should be avoiding tanks not trying to kill them unless you clearly outnumber them.

From my MMO PvP expirience:
Having one class/spec/playstyle which can be countered only by "outnumbering" will lead to peoples will pick that class/spec/playstyle untill it fixed.We will see 50% of game population being tanks in couple of month,if that shieldbash burst will not be redesigned.

Only be beaten by outnumbering?
1. Get out of the way.
- RUN (there are skills that does this too/better, but I suspect you think they are OP

)
- I thought to add a bit of clarification here. STOP RUNNING in time, you do not want to burn all your stamina, just enough to have time to eat up his stamina.
2. If blocking -> use light attacks
3. if not blocking -> use CC
4. Do a damage set-up (if you enter pvp without some kind of burst, see previous post about mindset)
5. Do Damage.
6. Repeat.

Now. You won't win every time. That is the nature of PVP.
Someone might even bring in a new twist and just stomp all over you. That is also the nature of PVP.

Adapt. Nature. PVP.

See what I did there?

Makarion · April 2014

I would be SO happy if every single PVP player were to decide to leave the game. It would open up a lot of room for more content, too

.

Are PVP-oriented players just inherently less mature, or is the competitive playstyle just ruining an otherwise at least possibly useful mindset? Going to be fun to see how Zenimax' decision to not differentiate between PVE and PVP gear will work out.

Rhythmic · April 2014

KerinKor wrote: »

Standard PVP QQ, sadly it's now started in this game too as it was inevitably going to.

Those who are here for the PVE and detest PVP will now see their beloved characters changed beyond recognition when ZOS try and attempt to pander to them and alter/nerf skills which are perfectly fine in the PVE world.

This will fail, as in all other MMOs in history which had PVP failed to achieve 'balance' and stem the QQ. In this ultimately futile attempt PVEers will be collateral damage as they are in WOW, Rift, GW2 (ESPECIALLY GW2), etc.

/sad

I cannot see how obviously broken 1button shieldbash spam which affects only PVP,will break PvE.All i ask and propose in that thread is redesign/fix so it still will helps with holding aggro,but will cut PvP 1button spam burst.

PS.And im gonna bet,ANY MMO will fail,if it will have 1 buttonspam kills in PvP,which can be countered only by "not PvP against players who use broken mechanics".

Rhythmic · April 2014

xodaNoreshb16_ESO wrote: »

Only be beaten by outnumbering?
1. Get out of the way.
- RUN (there are skills that does this too/better, but I suspect you think they are OP )
- I thought to add a bit of clarification here. STOP RUNNING in time, you do not want to burn all your stamina, just enough to have time to eat up his stamina.
2. If blocking -> use light attacks
3. if not blocking -> use CC
4. Do a damage set-up (if you enter pvp without some kind of burst, see previous post about mindset)
5. Do Damage.
6. Repeat.

Now. You won't win every time. That is the nature of PVP.
Someone might even bring in a new twist and just stomp all over you. That is also the nature of PVP.

Adapt. Nature. PVP.

See what I did there?

Charge stun.Shieldbash to the death.GG.
Adapt. Nature. PVPBulls**t.

bytestream · April 2014

Rhythmic wrote: »

From my MMO PvP experience:
Having one class/spec/playstyle which can be countered only by "outnumbering" will lead to peoples pick that class/spec/playstyle untill it fixed.We will see 50% of game population being tanks in couple of month,if that shieldbash burst will not be redesigned.

Nobody said that.

Tanks can be countered by healing roles, Power Bash or no Power Bash doesn't matter.
Staying at range counters Power Bash too. Yes, the tank can charge you, but that is rather expensive.

Again: Tanks are fine shield bash is not.

Increasing shield bash GCD(global cooldown) would be a good solution.So u cannot spam anyone to death for 2sec charge stun.

If Power Bash gets nerfed one of two things has to happen:
1. Tanks need a noticebale buff to their durabilty
2. Tanks need a noticeable buff to their damag output

Shield Bash is an essential part of what tanks are in PvP, you can't nerf it without buffing them otherwise.
If tanks would have unbreakable AE CC or would be as durable as they are in other MMOs Shield Bash would probably be too strong, but in ESO it is fine. Yes, it does allow the tank to do more damage than you might expect, but it is still less than what pure dps builds can dish out in the same amount of time.

Rhythmic · April 2014

Elmojito1000eb17_ESO wrote: »

It needs to be investigated is what i am supporting, it does more damage than a two handed character of mine with all attributes into stamina.

bytestream wrote: »

If Power Bash gets nerfed one of two things has to happen:
1. Tanks need a noticebale buff to their durabilty
2. Tanks need a noticeable buff to their damag output

Stop right there.

bytestream · April 2014

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

So, if I follow you logic correctly, no one is hardcountering the tank - leaving it as the master role. Sorry, a game ruled by players maxing out their defensive stats to overcome their inability to avoid damage through reaction time and awareness is boring as hell.

Healing builds counter tanks just fine.

I strongly oppose your (imo) made up pvp trinity philosophy that tanks role is to hardcounter glass-cannons by pure nature. Skillful play and softcounters should be able to overcome any predefined outcome of a fight. Smashing one button is not exactly what I`d consider skillful play, tho.

That's not how group oriented, trinity based PvP MMORPGs work. It might be what you would prefer, but it's not reality.

If you want so, ESO requires more "strategic and tactical skill" than "1v1 skill". It's more about you knowing your build and the battlefield as well as the right role being in the right place at the right time than making the right decision in a single, isolated 1v1 situation. Being able to make that decisions helps, no doubt, but it is not the main factor, it's not what group oriented, trinity based PvP MMORPGs are about.

Rhythmic · April 2014

Well as i exepted.
Smashing one button to win defenders came here to defend their skillfull sense of PvP.

xodaNoreshb16_ESO · April 2014

Rhythmic wrote: »

Charge stun.Shieldbash to the death.GG.
Adapt. Nature. PVPBulls**t.

Well... I guess me and my robes are just awesome enough to survive that initial damage.

Oh, and I pvp in light armor, mainly with resto/dest staffs.

Rhythmic · April 2014

xodaNoreshb16_ESO wrote: »

Rhythmic wrote: »

Charge stun.Shieldbash to the death.GG.
Adapt. Nature. PVPBulls**t.

Well... I guess me and my robes are just awesome enough to survive that initial damage.

Oh, and I pvp in light armor, mainly with resto/dest staffs.

You can survive,if he'll be unlucky with crits,but even u was able to live with barely health(medium armor 2-2.5k HP,rarely survive with with ~300-600hp),u will die in next charge/any magicka cost damage ability,unless u have something like bolt escape or dark cloak.

But it doesn't change the fact when vr1 tank can kill vr1 %userclass% with smashing one button.

Oh.Even 1500 damage in 2sec with smashing one button,is not fine compare to other classes; resourse cost/damage/value .

ZoM_Head · April 2014

Elvikun wrote: »

Rhythmic wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

So a whole 16 of your guildies who might not be good players dislike it?

Im glad you are atacking me personally,instead of atacking my arguments.
That's mean u have nothing to say about "press RMB to win "tactics"",which proves you are a troll,or person who use that "tactic".

On a serious note tho, as someone said, this is rather extreme "one trick pony" - it's really easy to avoid, even if that means just running. If you keep jumping on the shield, well, then I'm not sure what to say. Not to mention the shieldbasher is essentially dead when they meet 2 people at once.

Not at all, that same character will all passives in one handed and shield and no active skills walks through mobs with ease.

Burning Talons to lock them down, bash one target, dead...burning talons again, bash target, dead....rinse and repeat.

Effective and deadly yes, but no fun.

Look, im a shield lover, do not mis understand me here. But when my shield does 100% more bash damage than my weapon, and killing enemies with my shield faster than i can read their names is something not to be overlooked.

As i said in my previous reply, i am NOT supporting a nerf, but i am supporting some investigation into shield bashing. Maybe add some sort of cooldown, make it consume more stamina while keeping the damage i dont know....

Rhythmic · April 2014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPoKHYhigII#t=206

Discussion is closed.Stop defending that blatant imbalance please.
U are posing yourself like a smashing one button newbie.

vontariel · April 2014

Little wall of text:
In current state, when you are fully specced in a sword/shield line:
-You have better dmg with one bash (which takes about ~1 sec or less), than with fully charged (bow etc.) attack (~2 sec).
-Because you are constantly blocking, all offensive abilities with defensive mechanisms (like scatter shot) don't work. Furthermore using one will be propably interrupted, and cause mini-stun on you.
-My attacks are gimped because you are constantly blocking.
-Even if you start to block (with bow/2h/dual), your stamina will be eaten on blocking-only long before shield-spam user run out from his .
-You can't runaway from it, because nearly every shield user have at least one gap closing ability (charge or grab).

So against shield bash:
-you can't run
-you can't sustain
-you can't fight back
-opponent have full defensive potential

And for people, who are saying PvP shouldn't be around 1v1:
I saw shield bashers eating 3 and even more people with this "tactic". More than once or twice, in fact it's more common than the other way. Heck, the only situation when shield basher is eaten, where when he is big outnumbered (1vs4+), or other person has ininitiation bonus (from stealth) and eat him before he reacts and turns face to him to spam till victory.
In fact, whenever i see shield vs anybody: It's safe to assume shield will prevail in like 9 out of 10.

=====
What is problem?
We have too many benefits for no risk, and low cost. Shield bash:
-low cost in stamina
-quick to execute
-quick to repeat
-big damage
-reducing incoming damage (because of blocking stance)
-resisting most incoming cc effects (because of blocking stance).
As far as i understand, this skill is designed mainly as interrupting ability with some damage tied to it. Now it's main role is pure DPS.

How to fix it?
-rising cost im stamina.
With higher cost, user can execute less attacks. Problem with this approach is that, if the cost will be set too high, benefits from interrupting will be too small.
-rising execution time.
With increased "cast time", user can execute less attacks. Problem with this approach is that, we limiting amount of reaction time for interrupting.
-adding post-execution time.
With added delay, user can bash less times. Problem with this approach is bit complex: if we render user unable to attack, gains from interrupting are gimped. Adding any sort of CD will be wrong from "anti-cd" design point-of-view. spammability can be fixed also with little knock-back, so tank will waste some time to close that gap, and not stuned target will have window to act.
-cutting damage
With less damage, spam will deal...less overall damage(Cpt. Obvious!). It's one of safest way to cure problem with shield spamming. I think if regular bash will deal less/equal damage to quick attack (with stamina cost), and with interrupting bash high-damage left, situation will be fixed, without rendering whole mechanic useless/OP.