Skill Point Cancellation. Why return ALL the points? Stupid unnecessary money sink.

Lal

I would like to see Morphs bought back for a certain amount each, but also give us the option to completely respec at current prices if that's what a player wants to do. Or possibly one "get out of jail free card" respec, then charge us at the current pricing schedule.

Anoteros

ElSlayer wrote: »

This fact making gold actually valuable. There must be ways of outflow of gold from the economy.

Who are you to decide what necessary and what is not?
Playing the game is not necessary either.
Your post is not a suggestion. It is *** of *** in the faces of game designers.

Quit whining about absence of "Win the game" button.
Stop being lazy and farm.

wait wut?

ElSlayer

Anoteros wrote: »

wait wut?

What exactly you don't understand?

Zerl

I like the way it is now.

There NEEDS to be a decent money sink in the game in order to keep the value of gold within reasonable levels. This game is a relatively good system with the repairs, consumables (e.g. Cyrodill siege weapons), upgrade failures (breaks the weapon), and skill/ stat resets.

If there is no money sink, then IGC becomes negligible in value, items become ridiculously priced within a short space of time which is a bad thing as it means no new Players would have a chance of "really" engaging in Player-to-Player trading until late on.

Hodorius

I like it the way it is!
Respeccing has to be VERY epensive!

Before ESO I was playing on a WoW server where respeccing costs were capped at 50 silver.
Everyone respecced before farming/dungeons/battlegrounds.

Stuff like this destroys a part of the game!
You are not a tank/healer/dd any more... you are all at once.

Of course, during the leveling process I did set some points wrong.
I learned from it and when I respec for the very first time around lvl 50 I will do it right.

I started this kind of games with Diablo and I am happy I dont have to start a new character any more after setting a point in the wrong skill

ElSlayer

Hodorius wrote: »

Stuff like this destroys a part of the game!
You are not a tank/healer/dd any more... you are all at once.

Well, that isn't true. You'll need to have proper gear, which is not that easy.

Shaun98ca2

I once made a bad skill morph choice....I learned from it. IT TELLS you the changes BEFORE you select the ability. All you have to do is read and weigh your options. I usually spend a couple mins doing this now when I purchase an ability or morph it.

And the devs did flat out state that respecting is an absolute money sink designed that way. So are mounts, bag/bank slots. LOTS of money sinks in the game. Sure it hurts a little early on but helps the endgame.

Hodorius

ElSlayer wrote: »

Hodorius wrote: »

Stuff like this destroys a part of the game!
You are not a tank/healer/dd any more... you are all at once.

Well, that isn't true. You'll need to have proper gear, which is not that easy.

I am a blacksmith and woodworker and my friend who i play with is a clothier and enchanter.
The proper gear would be a matter of 5 minutes.

Phenomen

crislevin wrote: »

are you really gonna run out of skill points at lvl 50?

I mean, with shard, quest bonus, it seems you will have 150+ skill points, unless you poured waaay too much points into wrong place, why bother respec anyway?

Not sure if dumb or trolling.
As healer I use totally different morphs for PvE and PvP and I have to respec every time I go raiding Cyrodiil with my guild. That's 15k+ every day and it increase constantly because I gain more skill points.

ElSlayer

Hodorius wrote: »

I am a blacksmith and woodworker and my friend who i play with is a clothier and enchanter.
The proper gear would be a matter of 5 minutes.

Hey, wait... you've ALREADY SPENT your time and resources to level up all professions that allows you to get proper gear in 5 minutes.

So actual time of shifting gear from one group role to another is much more than 5 minutes.

Phenomen wrote: »

Not sure if dumb or trolling.
As healer I use totally different morphs for PvE and PvP and I have to respec every time I go raiding Cyrodiil with my guild. That's 15k+ every day and it increase constantly because I gain more skill points.

Actually this is a good example of problem. It makes whole Morph design to look bad in a combination with respec costs.

Daendur

i think the problem is that we have too few info about skills. tooltips are not so clear and a wrong interpretation can screw up a build.
if they won't let us respec single morph we should at least be able to have a test server or something to try how a skill really works before morphing it.

Hodorius

ElSlayer wrote: »

Hey, wait... you've ALREADY SPENT your time and resources to level up all professions that allows you to get proper gear in 5 minutes.

So actual time of shifting gear from one group role to another is much more than 5 minutes.

You are right with this one but there´s is still the possibility of trading.
I admit that would take longer but at maxlvl you would have only to do it once.
At least it is possible for everyone.

Phenomen wrote: »

As healer I use totally different morphs for PvE and PvP and I have to respec every time I go raiding Cyrodiil with my guild. That's 15k+ every day and it increase constantly because I gain more skill points.

In my eyes that´s the point!
You have to choose what you are.
PvP healer OR PvE healer.

On lvl 35 I have enough skill points to be a tank in PvE ( sword and buckler with heavy armour ) and have a good PvP build ( bow and medium arour ).
At the end I need "only" 128 skill points to have both maxed out the way I want it to be.
I know that´s a long way but doable.

Laerian

Again, another part of the game equal to frustration.

Respecting prices can't be a huge money sink; why?.

Because the whole point of skill tress is make players to test and combine them; to create and use different builds depending the situation. The skill descriptions are never accurate;they need to be tested in battle.

It should have some restrictions (1 hr cooldown, for example) to prevent abuse? yes.

What is the whole point of creating a complex system if the users will try to avoid it and some won't use it. Because is a little stupid to think that most players will dump their hard earned gold to satisfy a masochistic fantasy.

In the end what will happen?, of course these kind of things incentivate goldselling and players cheating the system. Some will bite the bullet paying a full respect then they'll use a walkthrough; others will pretend this feature doesn't exist.

Play the way you want... Except that you have to grind in the old way to pay.

Jitterbug

Pimsley wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

Pimsley wrote: »

Pretty clear they want decisions to matter in this game.

I m not too sure, money sink is what it is, a money sink, designed to encourage more time spent in the game.

Not a money sink if you stick with your choice of build from the get go

So true... plan your build out well and none of this should matter

Gisgo

Pimsley wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

Pimsley wrote: »

Pretty clear they want decisions to matter in this game.

I m not too sure, money sink is what it is, a money sink, designed to encourage more time spent in the game.

Not a money sink if you stick with your choice of build from the get go

Some of the morph description dont make much sense (silver bolt for example) so its not always to blame on players.

Am i supposed to respec 50 skills because ONE was "wrong"?

thilog

Hexcaliber wrote: »

Frankly, I had a chuckle that you are bent out of shape over 5 errant skill points, you do know there are a total of 320 available. The system is fine as it is; we get more than enough points to play about with builds.

The high cost of respec is intentional, respec is not intended as an option you resort to every five mins, it is there for folks who want to completely redefine their characters from the ground up. One of those decisions you might make once or twice if ever during your chars lifetime.

No.. frankly i disagree with this. At low level, people will want to use all of their skill points perfectly, not wait or hope that the get more to put into the right places.

This means most players will respec a half dozen times at lower levels than higher on, when they've decided their direction.

And the fact remains, that if you want the perfect character, or if you want to reroll a partial tree, you need to reroll the entire skill tree only to put most of them right back where they were.

I think the system should work in one of 2 ways. You click the shrine and it puts you into your skills page, you click your skills that you don't want an delete the skill point to your pt's pool, then apply them where you want. You're charged for each point.

Or

You get all your points back, re apply them how you wish and get charged only for the points that have actually changed position when you click apply new changes.

I also think you should get a preview changes button so you can check you've put the right skills in place and remove them individually again.

The way it works now, is you put your points back and you make a mistake, cancel it and get them all back again. You should be able to select individual mistakes.

Pimsley wrote: »

Not a money sink if you stick with your choice of build from the get go

Only a beta player would know the right choices to make. It is totally unfair to expect all players to be beta players. It's also besides the point, everyone has the right to make changes, there is no reason for these changes to be extortionate.

LadyChaos

Laerian wrote: »

/snip
Because the whole point of skill tress is make players to test and combine them; to create and use different builds depending the situation. The skill descriptions are never accurate;they need to be tested in battle.

It should have some restrictions (1 hr cooldown, for example) to prevent abuse? yes.
/snip

This is my main point of supporting tweaking the morph respec conditions personally. The rest IDC TBH, but the morph is a permanent choice to NOT get a particular skill. You pick one and permanently choise not to get the other. Well you can read the tooltip, but it really takes experimentation on some of them to know what it realy does.

The tooltips don't tell you how much more HP the clanfear gets or how much mana regen the twighlight pet gives you vrs the healing of the other morph , for example. I picked the power return morph for lighting ultimate, I liked it for a day until I got more levels and realized how many other sources of power regen are a lot better than that, and that it doesn't really give enough to trade any dps.. (IMO). I don't want to morph anything now lol because mostly I don't want to have to redo all my entire 50 points or so just to fix overload or whatever morph i want to experiment with.

I do think a scaling respec cost would help encourage experimentation. I don't mind it is expensive at all.. and I don't mind paying 5k at my level range to respec 1 trait, but I'd like to experiment and not have it cost the max to experiment as a noob player.

ConquerorDromtar

I'd love to see each player be given 1 or 2 free respecs and after that start getting charged an increasing amount per point changed. I know a lot of folks have gone to theorycrafting sites and are either following a predetermined build or have come up with their own. If you're into that, more power to you. You're the folks that push understanding of the game farther.

Personally, I started with the idea that I wanted to go 2H with my character and started putting points into that line fairly early. Now, at level 16, I find that it's just not as good as dual wielding for my play style and less-than-stellar internet. What seemed good prior to launch, and what was good at earlier levels, is now not so good for me. Unfortunately, I could only know that through playing the game rather than crunching numbers in Excel or on a skill builder site.

A limited number of free respecs should be included to allow players some freedom to play and make changes should their theory/ideas not work out so well in "the real world".

I also support the idea of giving players two spec options to allow for different play styles in PVP and PVE. Given the multitude of options players have having 2 specs to swap between isn't much in the grand scheme.

SuperScrubby

While I understand a money sink the current respec system is borked. It hurts the lower leveled people more than it does the higher level ones. When you're fully leveled up and are just grinding for the "raid" drops then I would assume money is just used to level up any crafting or to repair your gear.

However at lower levels it puts you in a very tight spot. A respec at lvl 20 being 5k put a huge dent in my wallet in game. That money could have been spent on buying some better armor from someone or go towards the expensive horses. Instead I spent it to respec some of the bad morph decisions I made. So, while I was the one that made the decisions to morph certain skills, at a low level every point counts and it doesn't make any sense to continue to level up a morph skill that is garbage.

So in its current system the respec system is garbage because it forces people who want to test out every skill or who made bad morphs to hand over a huge amount of their purse to get back those precious points that could have been spent on something else.

Either lower the cost at the early levels or offer some sort of partial respec or make it a lot cheaper with a timer. Ultimately this game doesn't make "freedom" cheap, and testing different builds becomes a costly experiment that ultimately detracts from a users playing experience. People need to remember that the 1-49 has plenty of other costs that are money sinks.

circilion

thilog wrote: »

Look at the discussion about 5 skill slots + ultimate skill. ok, x2 at lv 15..

Now look at how you've progressed your character.. you've got a skill point in 2h axe, 1-2 in dual wield, 1 in restostaff, 1 in sword and shield..

You've put points in light armour, medium armour and heavy armour..

You've got 6 attack skills and 4 buff/heals..
ECT.

More planning in character development? I spent a ton of time planning out my character, and as of yet shouldn't need to respec.

That being said if I ever do, I deserve it for being a terrible planner!

I would imagine its designed to prevent people from juggling points. In WoW i knew a druid that bought gold and used to respec for raids all the time based on what the raid party needed... Like, ALL the time.

mind you that was quite some time ago, but I would imagine not much has changed.

MasterSpatula

Leaving aside the money issue, if I just wanted to change one point, I really wouldn't want to have to go through and put back every single skill point but one just like I'd had it.

Whether I wrote down my build on paper or painstakingly remembered every single point I'd spent, what a pain in the butt!

Hanokihs

LadyChaos wrote: »

The tooltips don't tell you how much more HP the clanfear gets or how much mana regen the twighlight pet gives you vrs the healing of the other morph , for example. I picked the power return morph for lighting ultimate, I liked it for a day until I got more levels and realized how many other sources of power regen are a lot better than that, and that it doesn't really give enough to trade any dps.. (IMO). I don't want to morph anything now lol because mostly I don't want to have to redo all my entire 50 points or so just to fix overload or whatever morph i want to experiment with.

I do think a scaling respec cost would help encourage experimentation. I don't mind it is expensive at all.. and I don't mind paying 5k at my level range to respec 1 trait, but I'd like to experiment and not have it cost the max to experiment as a noob player.

This. So much, this. Couldn't agree more. It takes a lot more than basic planning to settle on a good build that works for your play style. But if you're new to the game, and have no real idea what you're doing, you run a serious risk of hitting a brick wall that can totally stop you in your tracks, if its bad enough.

Quick anecdote: In beta, I fell in love with familiars; summoning is my go-to skill. Best or Worst class doesn't matter, I just enjoy every minute of it. But man, that first morph is a doozy: powerful explosion, or angry dinosaur? I went with the explosion - it seemed like it would be better, but that turned out to be such a bad decision for me that I wiped the character and started over. Some things like that, you can't tell JUST from the tooltip text that comes with the choices. You have to put them into practice, and for a new player who has no idea what they're doing, that moment of "Aah, nuts," can be a complete gamebreaker. Especially if you can't afford to fix it and have to run around with a broken skill for the next 3 levels.

It'd be better if people were only heavily gouged for respecs if they perform them a lot. The first one? Free, or very cheap - "You learned a lesson, and that's good, so next time, you're on your own." The second one, price multiplies - "We just talked about this, didn't we? Pay more attention to what you're doing." The third one, price raises again - "What are you, just clicking the buttons next to colors you like?" The fourth one, another increase, this time brutal - "Okay, you're doing this on purpose; no mercy for your coinpurse." And so on, until the people who would abuse it are legitimately penalized, and the people who have accidents or just don't understand won't have to suffer so much.

Sakiri

How about a complete wipe at 100per point, one whole skill line at a time for 150 per point and single abilities for 200 or 300 per point?

Drekor

I made about 10k in an hour of farming and just vendoring drops, I'm sure some trade savvy people could make 10x that amount. It's really not a big deal.

Sakiri

Drekor wrote: »

I made about 10k in an hour of farming and just vendoring drops, I'm sure some trade savvy people could make 10x that amount. It's really not a big deal.

10k is a drop in the bucket once you get a few hundred skill points.

Hodorius

You will have soooo many skillpoints if you get all the syshards and do all the quests that trying out skills is really not a problem!

Just play around and respec at lvl 40-50.
Use an online planner and it will be really easy!

As the anti-addon people made addons dmgmeters impossible noone will know how bad you are skilled while playing around with "useless" skills

ElSlayer

Hodorius wrote: »

You will have soooo many skillpoints if you get all the syshards and do all the quests that trying out skills is really not a problem!

You can't try both Morphs of particular ability without respecing.
Also if you want to use one Morph in PvE and another one in PvP - you need to respec everytime as you switch between PvE and PvP.
That is the point.

Anoteros

The main selling point of ESO was 'play it your way' yet by going what most of the ignorant blinkered fanboys are posting in here is that you should be devoting a large amount of time and effort to research abilities prior to spending them instead of having the freedom to experiment and learn the good old fashioned way.

It is preposterous to even suggest people 'think ahead'. Not everyone plays MMORPG's to min max.

Yes there should be a cost to respeccing but not at the amount being asked. Most people in my guild have opted to reroll all together instead of trying to farm the gold.
Doesn't help we cant farm lower level mobs to make it slightly easier/faster.

JHoov714

I will have to agree with what a few of the other folks are saying, your first respec should be free. This would encourage experimentation at low levels while people are seeing what works and what doesn't on a practical level, not just with an online build sheet.

I also wouldn't mind if you could respec the last talent point you invested at a reduced rate, or maybe even free within the regular Skill UI. That would also allow you to test out morphs on a practical level. Like an UNDO button, but it only refunds your most recent point.

Its happened to me at least a couple times were I was looking forward to trying a new skill, and once I had it I said, "Meh… that wasn't that great, I doubt I'll ever use that" and now its just sitting there unused for eternity.

I get where other people are coming from "There are way more skill points than you'll ever need so who cares!" But it takes a long time to build to that, and your skills at 1-20 run pretty thin from my experience. A little flexibility in the system would help and encourage people to try new things.

TLDR: The current system is okay how it is, but a couple of elegant additions like an UNDO button and one free respec could allow for greater experimentation, especially at lower levels.

Extremeties

thilog wrote: »

Look at the discussion about 5 skill slots + ultimate skill. ok, x2 at lv 15..

Now look at how you've progressed your character.. you've got a skill point in 2h axe, 1-2 in dual wield, 1 in restostaff, 1 in sword and shield..

You've put points in light armour, medium armour and heavy armour..

You've got 6 attack skills and 4 buff/heals..

But only 5 slots. Being able to swap stuff around, yeh all good. When your first char is so messed up, you've got 2 choices.. reroll.. or goto the shrine and pray to god for 2500 gold and he gives you 25 skill pts.. great, if you wanted all of them back. Why not pray and then it puts you in your skills page, you can remove pts as you want, add them where you want and it charges you 100g for each point removed!

The current system is stupid. What's going to happen when you've level 30 or 40 or 50 and you find you have 4-5 skill points in unnecessary places? You get them all back, you put them all back in exactly the same places, except for the 4-5 you wanted to move! That's downright moronic.

And whats the cost? 40000 gold.. to move 5 pts..

I'm at 28 and I've got over 30k on gold just from questing.... I seriously don't understand the crying going on here... It's unbelievably easy to make money... 2k gold is nothing... I understand what your saying. You want to maximize the your build with the points you have but they purposely built the game to combat that. There's over 300 skill points in the game for that very reason. A couple points here an there arent going to make or break your character. Its built for that reason, to try things here an there. Hell, my main character, my tank I put point into dual wield, 2h, destruction staff, healing staff and still have plenty for my full tank build currently up to my lvl(44), practically maxed my blacksmithing line and still have points left over.

Get out there and quest and money will fly.