Skill Point Cancellation. Why return ALL the points? Stupid unnecessary money sink.

Saltypretzels

i like the system as it is. The devs want you to think carefully about your every action and be prepared to commit to it. If you could respec every point individually or even whole lines at a time, that gold would just be negligible, and there would not be any weight on your actions. Other MMOs I've played, it is also extremely expensive to respec (and in f2p games it costs real $$). And for the same reasons, they want you to really think and plan ahead.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

The game of choices. Choose wisely, spend wisely, trade wisely. No longer can you just roll your face on a keyboard and expect results.

Bad choices will cost you $$. Live, learn, pay the toll.

mcatchlovb16_ESO

You should be able to choose the skills you want to respec, you shouldn't have to do all or nothing.

LastLaugh

Phenomen wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

are you really gonna run out of skill points at lvl 50?

I mean, with shard, quest bonus, it seems you will have 150+ skill points, unless you poured waaay too much points into wrong place, why bother respec anyway?

Not sure if dumb or trolling.
As healer I use totally different morphs for PvE and PvP and I have to respec every time I go raiding Cyrodiil with my guild. That's 15k+ every day and it increase constantly because I gain more skill points.

If you're spending 15k a day on respeccing it would make more sense to level a second toon of the same class and use one for pvp and one for pve.

SuperScrubby

It's not 2k gold for a respec. When I did it at lvl 23 it was like 5.1k. Someone said at 50 it was 15k. So if I were to respec in my 30's it would probably cost around 7.5k.

Either way at an early level is where this affects the most and it's incredibly cost prohibitive to try different builds or skills to see what you like and don't like. How the mechanics actually work, etc. than saying by the time you're 50 you'll have a ton of points. Well there's still lvls 1-49 that you have to play through and having some bad morphs or spending points heavily into crafting only to find out your pve capabilities are shot do not make a game fun. Yes you should try to plan, but it's also a game and it shouldn't punish you for messing up on your stat points.

Besides nobody is saying they want a restat every 5 minutes or before a raid. They're just saying that want a more reasonable system, so seriously stop comparing it to how WoW. Other games give free restats to try builds or put time limits on them. WoW was not the only game with restats.

LastLaugh

There are some legitimate concerns on both sides of this argument.

Maybe a good compromise would be to allow players the ability to respec individual traits at 100g each but give that feature a long cooldown, such as 30 days. That would allow for the inexpensive correction of minor errors and the ability to try out various morphs while preventing players from respeccing to suit each new challenge that arises.

Cybergoblin

systems punishing new players or punishing those who do not spend enough time reading the internet to learn the optimal way never succeed. i think zenimax will eventually fix this but for the short term took the lazy way out (probably had to prioritize for launch). it is not a good way to funnel money out of the system as it punishes your casual players severely and little impact on your hardcore ones. hardcore player base do not sustain a game long term. at least not a 15 dollar a month one. you need broad appeal.

Sleepwalker

First they raged about getting the option to respec by the launch date. Now that's it's in, they already want it to be better. And they wonder why the dev's aren't in here talking with them about every little twitch? Sigh...

I can agree that the respec system is a little expensive at the moment. And I also agree with the respec system being a little expensive at the moment. It shouldn't be cheap, and one should put thought into how they'd like to play their character before throwing gold at it. Perhaps they'll eventually lower the cost or work out a way to alleviate the pressure on one's wallet. However, until they do, choose wisely and live with the consequences.

Delith

Next time you are praying at the shrine to reset your skills, please note that you are requesting assistance from the God of Ransom.

Ransom.

The God of Ransom.

Pay the money. Or don't. He doesn't give a *** about your opinion.

DankShank

Remove it from the game entirely. Respec is a privilege, not a right.

Those of you who claim ocd are liars. Either your medication is working well, or you aren't ocd. Someone with this disorder would actually plan their builds.

Those of you who complain it is a gold sink, it isn't. Price check a power leveler's rates for a level 50. Its a *** steal to get a brand new character for a few k gold.

Xaei

I'm fine with the cost to respec your skills, because the idea is that eventually you'll unlock everything.

But the lack of a choice to tweak morphs is completely silly.

The fundamentals of any buildcrafting is trial and error. You will not get the perfect build the first time, and in a game with a very deep buildcrafting system, you probably won't reach an optimal build until after a lot of experimentation.

You have to constantly evaluate what you've done and tweak things to make your build better. That's what makes buildcrafting fun.

You can't do that in ESO. To change a single morph at max skill points will cost you a fortune because you have to reset the entire skillline. Imagine doing that tens of times to experiment and tweak a build. No one can afford to do that.

So what this encourages people to do is just pick up pre-made builds that they know works instead of experimenting to find their own builds.

For those people saying you should commit to your builds. No, you should absolutely not. Realising what works and what doesn't work and improving your build is a major factor of progression.

Sleepwalker

Xaei wrote: »

The fundamentals of any buildcrafting is trial and error. You will not get the perfect build the first time, and in a game with a very deep buildcrafting system, you probably won't reach an optimal build until after a lot of experimentation.

Totally agree with you here. You are absolutely correct that it is a little disturbing to start devoting your points into skills when you don't know what they morph into. I have a good bit of difficulty with that personally. However, where you went wrong in my opinion is here...

Xaei wrote: »

You can't do that in ESO. To change a single morph at max skill points will cost you a fortune because you have to reset the entire skillline. Imagine doing that tens of times to experiment and tweak a build. No one can afford to do that.

No one can afford to do that... yet! The idea is that you'll choose as wisely as possible, and live with what you've made until you can afford to respec. We apparently aren't meant to respec every day, and I agree wholeheartedly with that. I don't think it's silly; it's adventuring... in every sense of the word. You don't have to create the perfect character every time. There are options and combinations that no one has even tried yet. That's exciting to me.

Or you can just read the forums and build your character the same way an elitist says to do it. Totally your call I guess.

Xaei

^changing one morph is not a respec, its tweaking your build. Its the same thing as changing a setting when you're overclocking your processor, except in this case you'll have to buy a whole new processor every time.

The system discourages you from finding those options and combinations no one has ever thought of yet because you won't know if a build you planned out works until you tried it, and if it doesn't you've wasted a ton of money. It's like gambling, not adventuring.


And even if it does work, the next step is to tweak it. You'll keep making small changes to your build and see if they work out in order to optimize your build. You cannot do that. Wasting walletloads of your hard-earnt cash just to gamble away on trying optimise a build is very discouraging.

Adventuring is exploring and seeing all the possibilities, not sticking with one thing or treading someone else's path, which is what this system encourages.

NordJitsu

I think at minimum there needs to be an option to respec your morph choices individually.

Shimond

You're not meant to just change your skills to min/max yourself into a specific role at whim. That they let you do it at all is rather nice of them - but you're trying to abuse it if you want to constantly go back and drop a couple hundred gold on getting specific skills changed so you can max your performance in a completely different role. If you want to do two roles, get used to being a hybrid of some sort - not a perfectionist in each (unless you're wealthy, then do whatever you want).

Xaei

Shimond wrote: »

You're not meant to just change your skills to min/max yourself into a specific role at whim. That they let you do it at all is rather nice of them - but you're trying to abuse it if you want to constantly go back and drop a couple hundred gold on getting specific skills changed so you can max your performance in a completely different role. If you want to do two roles, get used to being a hybrid of some sort - not a perfectionist in each (unless you're wealthy, then do whatever you want).

Its not even min-maxing, this is just about build experimentation and buildcrafting, which they encouraged you to go and do.

Besides that, why can you be a perfectionist at will? You're not doing 2 roles at once, because you can't have 2 builds running at the same time. Variety is the spice of life. A game should encourage players to try different roles and different builds, because it keeps things fresh and interesting, not stick to the same old or just pull FotMs straight off the forums to save on cash instead of trying to find a build that works by yourself.

Sleepwalker

Xaei wrote: »

Its not even min-maxing, this is just about build experimentation and buildcrafting, which they encouraged you to go and do.

Well, now you're just nit-picking over what to call it. Your ESO character is not a computer processor... Tweaking, respecing, build experimentation, buildcrafting, whatever. We're all talking about the same thing.

I'm not at all opposed to a small offering of gold to change one skill; seems perfectly legit to me. However, if they don't change the respec process as it is, I'd be fine with that too. It will make me think hard and save up for the changes I want to make, and the resulting product will make me that much more proud of my work. To each his own though... shrug.

DankShank

Plan your build and stick to it. Allowing us to change them eliminates variety.

Would I turn my tankplar to an aoeplar if it was cheap? Probably. And I doubt I'd be alone.

The only way you'd know to respec is if you saw someone else doing better than you.

Be original, and stick to your guns, if you want a new character, make one.

Stautmeister

Xaei wrote: »

^changing one morph is not a respec, its tweaking your build. Its the same thing as changing a setting when you're overclocking your processor, except in this case you'll have to buy a whole new processor every time.

The system discourages you from finding those options and combinations no one has ever thought of yet because you won't know if a build you planned out works until you tried it, and if it doesn't you've wasted a ton of money. It's like gambling, not adventuring.


And even if it does work, the next step is to tweak it. You'll keep making small changes to your build and see if they work out in order to optimize your build. You cannot do that. Wasting walletloads of your hard-earnt cash just to gamble away on trying optimise a build is very discouraging.

Adventuring is exploring and seeing all the possibilities, not sticking with one thing or treading someone else's path, which is what this system encourages.

Free respecs or individual skill respecs devaluate the system that builds eso. If you can change everything on a whim, your decision making has no worth, nor the associated feeling. The fact that this discussion is going means people are understanding the value of the points.

Personally i plan ahead, see which skill i want, calculate how many skillpoints i get between now and then and save them up.
Its also why i dont morph my abilities blindly, but check what does what.

If you burn your ass, your going to have to sit on the blisters. Not ask for the fire that keeps everybody warm to be toned down.

Tarelyn

DankShank wrote: »

Plan your build and stick to it. Allowing us to change them eliminates variety.

Would I turn my tankplar to an aoeplar if it was cheap? Probably. And I doubt I'd be alone.

The only way you'd know to respec is if you saw someone else doing better than you.

Be original, and stick to your guns, if you want a new character, make one.

i hadn't formed an opinion until i saw ^this^.
originally, i agreed with the OP in pvt, as the Gold Econonmy is so invalid.
where else can you buy a simple sword for 500 gold, and yet can only sell it for like 10g?
lame.

but this opinion, above, is solid.
we need to stick to our characters.
making it cheap to reroll is NOT a good idea.
so...
/not signed. sorry Op

Xaei

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

Xaei wrote: »

^changing one morph is not a respec, its tweaking your build. Its the same thing as changing a setting when you're overclocking your processor, except in this case you'll have to buy a whole new processor every time.

The system discourages you from finding those options and combinations no one has ever thought of yet because you won't know if a build you planned out works until you tried it, and if it doesn't you've wasted a ton of money. It's like gambling, not adventuring.


And even if it does work, the next step is to tweak it. You'll keep making small changes to your build and see if they work out in order to optimize your build. You cannot do that. Wasting walletloads of your hard-earnt cash just to gamble away on trying optimise a build is very discouraging.

Adventuring is exploring and seeing all the possibilities, not sticking with one thing or treading someone else's path, which is what this system encourages.

Free respecs or individual skill respecs devaluate the system that builds eso. If you can change everything on a whim, your decision making has no worth, nor the associated feeling. The fact that this discussion is going means people are understanding the value of the points.

Personally i plan ahead, see which skill i want, calculate how many skillpoints i get between now and then and save them up.
Its also why i dont morph my abilities blindly, but check what does what.

If you burn your ass, your going to have to sit on the blisters. Not ask for the fire that keeps everybody warm to be toned down.

I understand that there's some sort of decision-making elements involved but I don't feel its significant to destroy build-crafting and experimentation.

Whether I help or destroy a city, whether I saved or doomed a close friend, stuff like that to me is more about decision making than what morph did I choose for 1 particular skill, Because the former defines your character and who he/she is whilst the latter .... I don't even know what it defines.

Then look at what you're giving up in return for the tiniest bit of value in decision making: buildcrafting. You're discouraging experimentation, which something fundamental to buildcrafting. Buildcrafting is something fundamental to a successful MMO, I don't think I even need to argue that point.

Even on a decision-making level, how do you make a decision before you've tried everything out? Just because something looks good or bad on paper doesn't mean it;s that way in practice. And the current system discourages you from seeing things in practice, thus often I can't make a rational choice.

Garrix

sort of unrelated question it would be awesome if someone could answer.

When you respect and re-morph abilities, do they remain at the pre-morphed level, or go down to 4?

SuperScrubby

If the ability was already at a specific level before you respecced it would go back to that. So if you had Standard of Might III and wanted to respec because of another skill the moment you respec Standard of Might it would go straight to rank III.

If you don't morph the skill it would be at rank IV with the morph selection. If you choose the morph skill that you didn't initially choose in the first place then I believe you would have to start from scratch at rank I of the morphed skill.

Cogo

Be happy that you can respec at all.....

SuperScrubby

Why? It's a simple principle of having an mmo. You would lose more players without the ability to respec. Just because this is an Elder Scrolls game doesn't mean it's a single player game too. There are certain aspects of an online game that should be in place to make the game enjoyable to everyone. If you want a super unforgiving game go play dark souls blindfolded or something, or darkfall because if you get pked in that game you lose everything. Eve is also a good example.

Especially if you're trying to harbor the idea of "freedom".

Shimond

Xaei wrote: »

Its not even min-maxing, this is just about build experimentation and buildcrafting, which they encouraged you to go and do.

Besides that, why can you be a perfectionist at will? You're not doing 2 roles at once, because you can't have 2 builds running at the same time. Variety is the spice of life. A game should encourage players to try different roles and different builds, because it keeps things fresh and interesting, not stick to the same old or just pull FotMs straight off the forums to save on cash instead of trying to find a build that works by yourself.

This is precisely what happens if you let respeccing skills be easier/cheaper than it currently is.

Oh I want to tank this dungeon, let me go pull the 'best' tank spec off the forums and plug that in.

Oh now I want to heal, let me go get that spec and put it in.

Etc. I've seen this in too many games to count. In this game you should have your diversity be not in how many times you can refund your points and rearrange them to suit a specific need, but in how you distribute them overall (and by all means, acquire more points if there isn't enough to do multiple roles).

Khazaad

The devs obviously want us to recognize the importance of consequence. If you've ever been a little too lazy in a boss fight to rethink the tactics that just got you squashed three or more times in a row, the repair bill that you get will get your attention!

Want to haphazardly experiment with different skill combinations to find out what you like best? Better do it vicariously through people on forums who've aleady been there.

Lets say the costs are deliberately high for all the reasons a community full of hyper opinionated folk (like myself) might think. (seriously...let it happen) Does this improve the game?

(don't answer...i know its killing you but for now, it's rhetorical. you're probably better off stepping away for a second so the question has a chance to slip away...)

How do you feel about people who like to jog but sometimes would rather mountain climb AFTER some other things first?

Next patch allows each player to respec for free every third level. What's your reaction compared to the opinion you already had formulated after reading OP?

Option 1: Penalties should be severe because it rewards good decision making!

Option 2: Lets ease up on the penalties because frankly, it's killing my mood. Like. A lot. Opinion 1 should go play WoW.

tl;dr Personally I don't care what you think. I just want you to.

thilog

ElSlayer wrote: »

This fact making gold actually valuable. There must be ways of outflow of gold from the economy.

Who are you to decide what necessary and what is not?
Playing the game is not necessary either.
Your post is not a suggestion. It is *** of *** in the faces of game designers.

Quit whining about absence of "Win the game" button.
Stop being lazy and farm.

Interesting post and thank you for taking the thoughtful time to make it.

Yes, you're right, it makes gold valuable. It definitely does that.
As for who am I to decide what is necessary and what is not? Well, I'm one of the people who paid £89.99 for the imperial version, then paid for a £17.99 60 day game card to even get access to the game I'd bought. As far as I am concerned.. That gives me the right, to decide.

Playing the game is not necessary? Eh? You'd pay close on £100 for a game and not play it, because you don't like some of the game mechanics? Seriously.. send me your cash.

My post is not a post, it is.. well it is a post.. that is what they call making these applications to a forum.. yes, i'm being sarcastic.. Again as above, I think as a paying subscriber, I have the right to throw *** into the faces of the designers.

Quit whining about the absence of a win the game button.. yeh, posts like yours always seem to have this silly little insult thrown in. I don't want a win the game button. And in consideration to your latter line.. I don't have time to farm.

Now before this becomes a book..

I'm now level 23, my avg income over a gaming period is around 2-3k, of that I loose around 600g in repairs. I've now respec'd 4 times, at a cost roughly of 12k. twice, because I made stupid mistakes, at this level, 1 skill point in the wrong place.. can be a problem... especially, if it's been put into something I will NEVER use. Yes, it's my decision to press the button and pay.. yes, I could wait. But... I still think, the cost is overly expensive.

I'd like to see, at least, a consideration for mistakes. ie 35 points, costs 3500, at lv 23 that's what I have. I make a mistake and an hour later I go to refund my points. This time, "i feel" the cost should be vastly reduced, I haven't gained any points, respec'ing now is clearly because I made a mistake the hour before, why should I be charged 3500 again?

I don't know what it's like in the USA.. but if i go into a shop and buy a dozen eggs and drop them on the ground on leaving.. there's a fair chance the shop would give me another dozen eggs free of charge. I think, we the paying subscribers, deserve a fair chance.

That said, I'd also like to see the ability to remove individual points or sets of points. Instead of all the points.

jmido8

It is a lot of gold but this game doesn't have an economy so it needs huge money sinks to take care of that problem, otherwise everyone would have godly amounts of gold they didn't know what to do with.

Gear is super easy to obtain, it drops like pinatas from dungeons/monsters/chests and the market for them is very cheap. I see people selling level 46-50 epics all the time for 1-3k.

Once you have your backpack upgrades and your horse, what exactly are you going to be spending money on?

thilog

repairs.. i can imagine that if it's costing me 600g an hour roughly at 23.. it's gonna be alot more than that at 50.