Researching should be instantaneous

SadisticSavior

Iluvrien wrote: »

Elvent wrote: »

I haven't noticed but does researching work while offline as well? Or only game time?

Offline as well. Hence there is little enticement to stay on while researching traits.

1) You still need materials. And you cannot gather them off line.

2) Most people play this game for reasons other than researching traits.

There is lots of enticement to stay online. Trait Research is a teeny tiny part of this game.

Elvent

Iluvrien wrote: »

Elvent wrote: »

I haven't noticed but does researching work while offline as well? Or only game time?

Offline as well. Hence there is little enticement to stay on while researching traits.

ty kind sir

Rach71

I like the time system and the limitation on research slots; it forces some things, first is that the play must make a choice on what to research first. Do I want this weapon enhancement over this increased armor enhancement? Also inventory control, holding onto items for research reasons. It also makes someone who has dedicated some time to crafting some tangible reward (like picking the multiple research perk)

If Crafting is going to acceptied as a viable end-game loot delivery system it need to take time; with raiding and RNG of dungeon crawling loot in that way was slow to come by, by putting a large timer on traits it makes the crafting (time wise) on par with other paths.

Brennan

It would seem the OP has made up their mind of how they want the game to be. Can't be happy with the game as it is. Maybe OP wants to play a different game.

I've seen a lot of responses from former and/or current Eve Online players so I will just respond with a "lol no".

Yeshir

No need to change research times imho.

Stienbjorn

Wow, remove the research times and you remove the value of the crafter. That blacksmith who spent 4 months learning his craft and choosing his/her traits wisely, while also investing skill points into blacksmithing is now irrelevant because you wanted the times removed. Now everyone and their entire family can craft what s/he can and it took them all of 2 days...

Thanks but no thanks, the time stays, and with it doubling each trait for an item. Want to reduce the time, spend the skill points, or get real cozy with a crafter.

Zerfines

Stienbjorn wrote: »

Wow, remove the research times and you remove the value of the crafter. That blacksmith who spent 4 months learning his craft and choosing his/her traits wisely, while also investing skill points into blacksmithing is now irrelevant because you wanted the times removed. Now everyone and their entire family can craft what s/he can and it took them all of 2 days...

Thanks but no thanks, the time stays, and with it doubling each trait for an item. Want to reduce the time, spend the skill points, or get real cozy with a crafter.

agree whit you completely and would be nice if Timer could be shorten at-least a lintel bit and it would be perfect,

Iluvrien

SadisticSavior wrote: »

1) You still need materials. And you cannot gather them off line.

True enough, though this plays into the scenario outlined in my previous post about collective crafting bots and why time gates may not be as efficacious as intended in safeguarding the produce of a crafter.

SadisticSavior wrote: »

2) Most people play this game for reasons other than researching traits.

Me, for one. However this does not invalidate the question of whether research times, as they stand, are as they should be (in terms of behaviour and size) with regards to their intended purpose.

SadisticSavior wrote: »

There is lots of enticement to stay online. Trait Research is a teeny tiny part of this game.

And yet it is the part that we are discussing in this thread. It is also a larger portion of Crafting than it is of the whole game. For the dedicated crafter, therefore, it would seem to be very important indeed. Again, I am not sure why reminding us that there is more to ESO than this should prevent us from continuing the discussion, especially if it results in an experiential and reasoned view that could be of use to ZOS.

ForsakeMe

In my opinion research timeframes should stay as they are.

ForsakeMe

In my opinion research timeframes should stay as they are.

Nox_Aeterna

OP , there are many kinds of players , sure , there are players that can only log in in the weekends , there are player who will log in 1 hr each day tops , there are players who will play all day long everyday ...

The problem is , if the game is totally desgined around people that log in only in the weekends , then it will lose in the other ends , same if it is made for people logged in 24hrs a day ...

So they must balance, they will lose players dont matter what they do , the trick is losing the least possible.

Evelyn_Nightingale

I like having the research time, especially since my time offline counts as well. Also, there is a skill in the crafting lines that will reduce the amount of time it takes to research and also let you simultaneously research items.

If you don't see the value of the research time and don't want to spend skill points in the crafting line then crafting may not be for you, unless you're content to create mediocre equipment. You can always buy better gear from those who have invested time and skill points into their crafting.

The way the crafting system is set up is so that the players who decide to invest in crafting will later reap the benefits of their trade. Otherwise everyone would be the same and would only craft for themselves because there would be no benefit in buying from others or selling their creations.

SadisticSavior

Iluvrien wrote: »

True enough, though this plays into the scenario outlined in my previous post about collective crafting bots and why time gates may not be as efficacious as intended in safeguarding the produce of a crafter.

At best Crafting bots will augment your materials...they definitely will not replace them. Advancement is only going to come from actively refining and deconstructing or whatever. Research only applies to traits. If you rely on hirlings for tempers (for example) you will be waiting for a loooonnng time.

Iluvrien wrote: »

And yet it is the part that we are discussing in this thread.

Partly because people do not seem to get how miner Researching really is. Researching will not actually advance any of your skills. All it does is open up traits for you to use.

You will still need to actually play the game to advance these skills to a point where the researched traits will matter. It is like saying you don't need to bake a cake because you can easily buy the frosting in a can. The frosting doesn't do you a lot of good without the cake.

Chingowey

It's not really arbitrary when you consider the set items which require certain amounts of traits to be researched in order to craft them. The sets which require 6 traits to be researched would be absolutely pointless if research was instantaneous. There is no progression or sense of achievement once you've acquired that skill. EVERYTHING in an MMO is about investing time and the long term goals reward you much better, this is the philosophy for the crafting system. Assuming you're leveling 2 tradeskills (Let us say Blacksmithing and Woodworking) you should be pretty damn close, if not completely done, to finishing the research requirements by the time you're veteran rank 10.

Where's the logic in letting level 10's craft every set item? It essentially destroys any encouragement to craft and sell these items, and the economy will suffer as a result.

SirJesto

Just make some friends or join a guild and ask someone to craft or enchant something for you, for a fee or not. If you don't have the time to do something with your character then get help from someone who does. Like real life, if we don't have time or don't want to cook dinner we order a pizza. Don't have time to learn how to change the alternator on your car? Take it to someone who has done the research already and can do it for you.

Lupinemw

Wow I wonder if you all turned up the first day of school and demanded to know it all by the end of day 1.

The game in all aspects is supposed to challenge people, make them come back for more. Have a thirst to advance. To make it too easy would mean all the effort would be a waste.

Twicebit

I believe the balance for crafting and research in this game are done well. It isn't hardcore like EQ where you had to craft you own arrows with fletching, and with a chance to fail, or to softcore like GW2 where you could power level a toon to 80 simply by crafting.

Kairagan

For me, the investment of time helps give me a sense of achievement when I accomplish something, and that keeps me interested in a game far longer.

Anyone can buy arms or armor sets from the vendors, or wear quest items with minimal investment in time or effort. But if you want high end gear: participate in end game, leverage the resources of a guild, find a master crafter and buy/trade from them, or become one yourself (or a combination of ALL those scenarios)... and all of those reflect a significant effort on someone's part though and that's what keeps myself and many, many others playing these games. Removing the effort from the equation lessons the value in it's results, and that cheapens game experiences leading to people getting bored and just not logging in anymore.

JeffKnight

Iluvrien wrote: »

SadisticSavior wrote: »

It's exactly the opposite. This system is made for casual players more than anything else, because you don't have to be logged in to advance.

Firstly, I am certainly not advocating the removal of research times. I am personally of the opinion that the exponential increase could be done away with because it isn't efficacious but that is for several reasons. I will go into only one of these right now.

In response to the quoted comment I would add that not only does the system favour casual players, it favours almost absent ones. A character that is given a few items, for example by guildmates, can log in once or perhaps twice a day, hit the stations and in a comparatively short period have access to several traits in several crafts. If this character was a unplayed crafting clone this becomes even worse as 2 characters set up in this fashion, by a group or guild, could study 4 traits each and could then have access to all 8 traits in a combined time of 3.75 days, as opposed to the 63.75 that it would take a single player attempting to do the same thing.

In short, this mechanic rewards you more for creating soulless crafting alts that are funded by a guild to be mere machines for turning out items than for creating a flavourful character that you play continuously. At least according to the numbers I have run.

No it doesn't, since those alts who don't know all the traits won't possibly be able to make the gear with the best set bonuses. Do not forget that you are required to know anywhere from 3-8 traits to craft a set bonus item, and there are 3 and 5 item bonuses. It is to make sure that crafters can make the best items in game, but to do so, they can't just hop into crafting and insta-level it out and be able to make the best items in a day or even a week. It will literally take 2 months for a crafter to be able to make a single set bonus item that requires 8 research traits. No one crafter will be able to provide a complete set for quite some time. It encourages teamwork within guilds and also helps foster the player-based economy by allowing someone who has spent the time researching those traits to go out and say "I have a one-hand sword with the XYZ set bonus! PST for cost!"

That is why there is a research time.

Ourorboros

Yea, it's a little frustrating dealing with long research times, but I LOVE this system. It's the first time I've seen a crafting system that is designed to make crafting really valuable. It will require DEDICATION to be a top crafter, and the research time is a key component. It means crafters could really stand out from casual gamers. It also benefits casual players and those who want to take up crafting, because it provides a reliable way to access desired items instead of relying on blind luck to find traits.

The corollary to research time is bag space, everybody's other favorite complaint. I love it and hate it. Yes limited space makes a lot harder to try to do it all. Again it will take dedication to advance because of this limit.

It's a great system because those who put the effort in to advance deep into a craft will be valued, and those who don't want to go to the trouble can go to the crafters for their items.

Thanks, Zenimax. I look forward to seeing how this all plays out over time.

Dunhilda

What people fail to remember is this

Are you DPS? learn DPS traits first so six hours done in the first day
Do you wish to be a mighty tank? learn the Trait

Now tell me again why this should take time to make the endgame crafting more viable, only one that need to be able to craft all traits is the one selling you the junk.

Ourorboros

Yea, it's a little frustrating dealing with long research times, but I LOVE this system. It's the first time I've seen a crafting system that is designed to make crafting really valuable. It will require DEDICATION to be a top crafter, and the research time is a key component. It means crafters could really stand out from casual gamers. It also benefits casual players and those who want to take up crafting, because it provides a reliable way to access desired items instead of relying on blind luck to find traits.

The corollary to research time is bag space, everybody's other favorite complaint. I love it and hate it. Yes limited space makes a lot harder to try to do it all. Again it will take dedication to advance because of this limit.

It's a great system because those who put the effort in to advance deep into a craft will be valued, and those who don't want to go to the trouble can go to the crafters for their items.

Thanks, Zenimax. I look forward to seeing how this all plays out over time.

alarikub17_ESO

My next bow trait will take me 8 days. Next rest staff will take 4 days. So in theory i don't have to log in daily any more

Thinking of possible solutions to the original complaint without removing the research time:
1) Allow the queuing of the next research item
2) Accumulate research time reduction if nothing is being researched. so made up numbers: accumulate 25% of the time a research slot is idle. (i.e. if you research nothing for 8 hours your next research in that area would take two hours less) up to a maximum of 50% less time (i.e. your 1 day research time will never drop below 12 hrs with this bonus)

wayfarerb14_ESO

Unless you have your heart set on being a dedicated crafter, there is absolutly no reason why you should have to unlock all 8 traits for every item in your skill tree. Research what you need first, maybe work on unlocking the three traits that you would actually use most on your favorite items so you can use the special forges. If that's what you want to do. Or just research the traits that you like and move on from there.

Crafting as a specialization is not for the casual player who is unwilling to log on for 5 minutes every day (and really, how hard is that?). And there are crafting skill lines that are much easier to level, like food, enchanting, and potions. If the time tables upset you so much, focus on those three. You can still make in game gold by selling those items. That was the point of this, right? That the people who are dedicated crafters would be selling their wares? Because if you weren't planing on selling any of the items that you make after unlocking every single trait of every single item in the skill line you chose to specalize in, then I don't understand what you were trying to unlock them all for.

Zakua

Right now at lvl 20...I'm not to thrilled with 12hr research time tables....but I can see myself at 50 appreciate it more.

Yes part of me would love to have 1hr research times (or shorter but not instant) but the other part of me thinks the current times are good as they are.

Maybe the scaling should have not been so abrupt? Maybe your first tier should have been 1hr, 2nd tier 6hrs then 12 and so on. Too late now I believe

Gillysan

Keep research. I disagree with the OP completely on this.

Regarding the best crafting & player economy of any game ever created so far: EVE Online.
The EVE economy and Industry today was ten years in the making. They had their oops! moments but the game has been in continual development this whole time. They do things that games like the one that shall remain unuttered would not dare because they think it would drive customers away. That it would make things too hard.

I think the current crafting system isn't too bad. Researching is a good part of the foundation. Hopefully it will continue evolving with more complexity and not less. *looks askance at the other screen with all the spreadsheets and 3rd party helper websites*

ZOS, challenge accepted.

Sojan

easy_lee wrote: »

When researching new enhancements from items, each research takes an arbitrary amount of time. The one I'm currently researching takes six hours. There's no reason this should take time.

Kind of defeats the purpose of research, don't you think? Was relativity instantanous for Einstien? Was the polo vacination instantaneous? Hot Pockets?

Why the need for immediate gratification? What happened to the joy from reading a good book, the eloquence of a sonnet or the rapture experienced at the crescendo of piece of music? The game is meant to be experienced and the best way to do that, is with time spent.

Abeille

They want you to focus on a few traits and/or types of gear, not to be able to craft everything right away. Making research instantaneous would take that away.

Lupinemw

Sojan wrote: »

easy_lee wrote: »

When researching new enhancements from items, each research takes an arbitrary amount of time. The one I'm currently researching takes six hours. There's no reason this should take time.

Kind of defeats the purpose of research, don't you think? Was relativity instantanous for Einstien? Was the polo vacination instantaneous? Hot Pockets?

Why the need for immediate gratification? What happened to the joy from reading a good book, the eloquence of a sonnet or the rapture experienced at the crescendo of piece of music? The game is meant to be experienced and the best way to do that, is with time spent.

Exactly my point, ppl moan to much its not about the end point it's about the journey to it. Plus you can find ways to reduce the time or research multiple things at the same time.

AbaddonLive

Are you complaining about 6 hours? Wait until you get up to trait 8, lol!
And no, I dont agree with you. It should be hard and demanding to be the best possible crafter. When you get to 8 traits, the rewards are absolutely worth the time. Unless everyone stop playing ESO before that time.