Researching should be instantaneous

easy_lee

When researching new enhancements from items, each research takes an arbitrary amount of time. The one I'm currently researching takes six hours. There's no reason this should take time.

This is one of those elements of an MMO purely designed to take extra time without creating any gameplay value. It's similar to what WoW did later on with tradeskills, particularly during the third expansion. All of the best items required several of a material that could only be refined once a day per character. This served no purpose other than to increase the amount of time it took players to gear up.

And players do not appreciate those kinds of "features." Due in large part to WoW developers adopting practices like these, artificial reasons players had to log in every day, WoW lost millions of subscriptions. Most people have lives, and jobs or school. We don't have time to log in every day. Some of us only have time to log in on the weekends, and prefer to do all of our gaming then. But if you force us to log in every day just to get anything done, by including features like these, then players will quit.

I can't stress this enough. ESO needs to avoid these kinds of practices that impede the amount of progress players can make on a binge and force players to log in every day. They serve NO gameplay purpose, and run casual players away from the game because we don't have time for it.

clocksstoppe

if you want crafting to be worth something, it is needed. time is the most valuable asset in an mmo

Eris

No, researching should take time, that's why it's called research. It's not like you need to sit there and actually do it. It would totally suck to have to sit there for 6 hours and do nothing. It all happens in the background, your mysterious research gremlins do the work while you continue to adventure.

Sihnfahl

This is the mechanic they use to make end-game crafting viable. You're limited by the slow leveling speed of the crafting skill, and the time required to get the traits people want on the equipment.

So your choice is 'fast but irrelevant in endgame' or 'relevant in endgame but slow to acquire'.

easy_lee

End game gear is made viable by making it difficult to acquire. Consider two approaches. One) materials are easy to acquire, but research takes time. Players have to log in every single day in order to craft anything. Two) materials are difficult to acquire. The gear is still viable, but you can sit down and play one afternoon rather than playing a little every day.

Is there really any disagreement as to which system is better? I'm not bashing the game, so fanboys have no need to come running to its defense. But this is a major flaw, one which will drive away casual players who don't have time to log in every single day.

SirLee

The times are not "an arbitrary amount". Each trait researched on a particular piece of gear doubles the time needed from the last on researched. So the first one is 6 hours, the second 12, the third 24, ect...

See this guide : Research Times

easy_lee

SirLee wrote: »

The times are not "an arbitrary amount". Each trait researched on a particular piece of gear doubles the time needed from the last on researched. So the first one is 6 hours, the second 12, the third 24, ect...

See this guide : Research Times

That makes it worse, and I don't think you understand what I mean by arbitrary. Please don't explain what you think I mean by arbitrary; I don't want this to turn into a thread about the definition.

Ri_Dariit

This one likes the research system. Patience is required and only mer or men complaining would like to exchange coin for knowledge. This is not how Tamriel works. Time gives you insight, and you can't buy time with coin.

SadisticSavior

easy_lee wrote: »

RESEARCHING SHOULD BE INSTANTANEOUS

What an awful idea.

The point of research time is to force people to specialize. If it becomes easy to make anything, then no one is special anymore.

The playing field is level because research is in real-time. It does not matter if you are logged in. So both casual players and people without a life can advance at the same pace. This model worked really well in EVE.

SirLee

SadisticSavior wrote: »

easy_lee wrote: »

RESEARCHING SHOULD BE INSTANTANEOUS

What an awful idea.

The point of research time is to force people to specialize. If it becomes easy to make anything, then no one is special anymore.

The playing field is level because research is in real-time. It does not matter if you are logged in. So both casual players and people without a life can advance at the same pace. This model worked really well in EVE.

I really liked that part about EVE. It would be nice to have an even larger researchable skill tree.

easy_lee

SadisticSavior wrote: »

easy_lee wrote: »

RESEARCHING SHOULD BE INSTANTANEOUS

What an awful idea.

Love how when you quoted me, you altered my text to be in all caps to try and make me sound ignorant. That's real mature.

You don't make a good MMO by taking bits and pieces of other successful games and jigsawing them together. Take Guild Wars 2, for example. The entire game is based around pvp, frequent content updates, and making sure the endgame doesn't turn into a gear treadmill. Everything about the game, from statistically identical end game drops to fast-paced combat with a wide variety of builds, enhances that goal. Everything they add to the game, such as the wardrobe feature they're adding soon to make it easier for players to customize their appearance, furthers that goal. Trying to take pieces of that game and incorporate them into another wouldn't be wise, since the system works as a whole.

So what do long research times do for ESO? In EVE, a large part of the economy was designed with specialization in mind. Do you think the ESO devs have thought about all of the consequences of the system, and designed the game and economy with that in mind? Do you think they've created a large enough crafting system to enable that sort of feature to work? Or do you think they added it because it was in EVE, the same way they added dodge rolls because Guild Wars 2 has them, the same way they added the compass because Skyrim has it, and the same way they added quest markers because WoW has them?

Blackhorne

easy_lee wrote: »

SadisticSavior wrote: »

easy_lee wrote: »

RESEARCHING SHOULD BE INSTANTANEOUS

What an awful idea.

Love how when you quoted me, you altered my text to be in all caps to try and make me sound ignorant. That's real mature.

Actually, SadisticSavior probably just copypasted the title of your post into the quote, which was smart because it succinctly summarizes your position. The title is capitalized by the forum software.

So what do long research times do for ESO? In EVE, a large part of the economy was designed with specialization in mind. Do you think the ESO devs have thought about all of the consequences of the system, and designed the game and economy with that in mind?

Well, yes. Do you have evidence that they haven't? Long research times give meaning to the research. If you could instantly research everything, everyone could max out every crafting skill almost instantly, making crafted items worthless to resell, as it'd be easier to make your own.

Do you think they've created a large enough crafting system to enable that sort of feature to work?

Yes.

Or do you think they added it because it was in EVE, the same way they added dodge rolls because Guild Wars 2 has them, the same way they added the compass because Skyrim has it, and the same way they added quest markers because WoW has them?

They added research times because it's necessary for the way they geared the economy. They added dodge rolls because they're in previous Elder Scrolls games. They added the compass because it's in previous Elder Scrolls games. They added quest markers because they're in previous Elder Scrolls games.

Are you beginning to see a pattern here? ZO is part of the company that owns Bethesda Softworks and through them the 20-year-old Elder Scrolls franchise. They are building on a very deep heritage of immersive game development.

AreoHotah

This is the best example why games these days aren't what they used to be... casuals.
i love the curent system, not like d3 where you could go rmah, buy gold to get a legendary plan and make one.
you have to put time and effort in to making your best possible gear here

SadisticSavior

easy_lee wrote: »

Love how when you quoted me, you altered my text to be in all caps to try and make me sound ignorant. That's real mature.

LOL...look at the title of this thread. It's in all caps. Thats what I copied.

Grow a thicker skin.

easy_lee wrote: »

You don't make a good MMO by taking bits and pieces of other successful games and jigsawing them together.

I disagree in this context. This is a trait that worked really well in another game.

easy_lee wrote: »

Take Guild Wars 2, for example. The entire game is based around pvp, frequent content updates, and making sure the endgame doesn't turn into a gear treadmill. Everything about the game, from statistically identical end game drops to fast-paced combat with a wide variety of builds, enhances that goal.

GW is not really an MMO...it's a single player game with grouping options occasionally. Like Diablo. It is not comparable to this game IMO. There is very little in GW that is "massively multi-player".

easy_lee wrote: »

So what do long research times do for ESO? In EVE, a large part of the economy was designed with specialization in mind.

You just answered your own question.

This game will also have a player based economy. It just launched...give it some time.

easy_lee wrote: »

Do you think the ESO devs have thought about all of the consequences of the system, and designed the game and economy with that in mind?

Yes.

easy_lee wrote: »

Do you think they've created a large enough crafting system to enable that sort of feature to work?

Definitely. As with EVE, it will be extremely difficult to cover all specialties in all professions, even if you twink and grind 24/7 (and most players won't or can't). It is not just a matter of research but also materials. Certainly crafting the special items (like the special Armor sets) will be very hard to do. Especially if you are not a dedicated crafter...and that is how it should be.

easy_lee

SadisticSavior wrote: »

GW is not really an MMO...it's a single player game with grouping options occasionally. Like Diablo. It is not comparable to this game IMO. There is very little in GW that is "massively multi-player".

easy_lee wrote: »

Do you think they've created a large enough crafting system to enable that sort of feature to work?

Definitely. As with EVE, it will be extremely difficult to cover all specialties in all professions, even if you twink and grind 24/7 (and most players won't or can't). It is not just a matter of research but also materials. Certainly crafting the special items (like the special Armor sets) will be very hard to do. Especially if you are not a dedicated crafter...and that is how it should be.

To your first point, you obviously have never played guild wars 2 end game. As a matter of fact, you probably haven't played it at all. Players interact with each other in huge, 40+ player encounters at every step of the leveling process, and those are a big part of the end game too. Hell, the fastest way to level in GW2 is to get a huge number of players together and create a "train" across a zone, where everyone hits each mob one time.

And your second point only reinforces my own. If it truly is difficult to gather enough materials in order to advance each profession, then the research system doesn't need the time system tacked onto it. Material gathering alone will take enough time that players will inevitably specialize. Adding a time system just inconveniences the player.

Systems which serve only to inconvenience the player have no place in an MMO. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. The reason WoW was so successful is because it did away with most of the inconvenient features of EverQuest. Death penalties encourage players to play carefully and seek safety in numbers. Not showing skyshards on the map encourages exploration. Adding a ludicrous and unnecessary real-time cooldown to crafting serves no other purpose than to make crafting take longer.

As I've already said, the system that's in place only serves to force players to play a bit every day. It punishes players who don't log on at at least once every 24 hours. That's something no MMO should do; it's really bad for player retention. And I have a nasty feeling that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

easy_lee

There's one more point I'd like to make, and this one's huge. In order for a game to grow, it needs new members. So let's say you're a new player joining six months or so down the line. You have all the makings of a top-tier player: lots of time to devote to the game, a healthy attitude, and you're a quick learner. You decide to take up crafting.

Then you realize the developers implemented time gates into the crafting system. Suddenly, there's absolutely no way for you to compete. The other crafters are already months ahead of you, and no amount of hard work will let you catch up. Ever. Your only hope is that the developers stop adding new content for a few months, so you and all of the other crafters have time to max out the current system.

Does that sound fair to you? Does that seem like a wise system to have in place? Better question: what happens if time gates are added to other aspects of the game? What if every dungeon is on a timer, or there's a limit to how much pvp each player can do?

Veterans should not have an untenable advantage that newbies can never overcome. It stifles growth of the entire game. But that's exactly what kind of system time gates impose. It doesn't matter whether the current players like the system or not. Time gates are bad for the game as a whole, and ought to be removed before they become the standard.

Destabilizator

It's gonna take you few days to research piece to be able to craft it's set version. That counts, doesn't it? At craft skill 10 you can research 2 things at once, counts too, no? Everyone would be running in sets if it was instant.
Now you have to plan good traits ahead, plan what to research to 3 traits first and also keep the items for research in bank.
As a result you will be able to craft sets and good items.

Timegates are bad? I come from EVE Online, this whole game is build on timegates, uncomparably long (geological scale compared to ESO), are you useless there as newbie? Nope.

Hellorush

I hope Zenimax won't listen to such threads and leave researching times as they are now. No need to make things easier, when they are fairly easy already

UnknownXV

Boy are you in for a shock. Only the first value is arbritrary (they had to choose something). After that, the next research takes twice as long. It keeps doubling like this. Which, if you are familiar with elementary math, 6 > 12 > 24 > 48 > 96 > 192 > 384 > 768

That is a total of 1,530 hours to research 8 traits. 63.75 days. Of course, you need to do weapons and armor. You can see the time requirements are extraordinary, and this is a very, very good thing. It means two things. No one will have all possible traits unlocked for months, possibly years. Secondly, as a direct effect of this, you'll have to depend on more than one crafter for your particular needs. Specializing for traits. I think enchantment may end up working like this too in the higher levels.

Lupinemw

If you make it straight away it would mean that someone could feed a single player all the elements they needed and they could churn out whatever was needed like a farm.

Where is the fun in that, I like the challenge of it. I like that I actually have to think a little about crafting and that its not easy. I like that its a challenge and it means that with guild mates I can ask someone to do one weapon whilst I concentrate on another perhaps.

RustyBlades

Well researching is skewed for carpenters - they have 3 items - bows, staves(4), and shields. Most folks will use only one out of all 3 (4 unique subtypes) types listed since you can't use a bow and a shield or a bow and a staff. So as you improve your available bow enhancements, you are stuck with the 6-12-24 and so on research path, same with shield and restoration staves. Hence you are stuck with zero options other than to suffer with slow weapon enhancement progressions due to a single path.

With blacksmithing you can kind of game the system since there are 3-4 single handed weapons, and 2-3 dual handed weapons. So technically you can have up to 3-4 essentially 6 hour researches out of the lot you can use, then 3-4 12 hour researches - you can spread all 8-10 (didn't count, was wearing shoes) single handed enhancements across 3-4 weapons and get them all. So you can essentially get all enhancements researched across all weapons in less time than it would take a bowman or a shield wielder or a healer to get 4 enhancements researched, and less time than it would take a destruction staffer to get 6 enhancements.

A wee bit skewed. Items with only one type in the game should get their research times adjusted downward to compensate.

easy_lee

UnknownXV wrote: »

Boy are you in for a shock. Only the first value is arbritrary (they had to choose something). After that, the next research takes twice as long. It keeps doubling like this. Which, if you are familiar with elementary math, 6 > 12 > 24 > 48 > 96 > 192 > 384 > 768

That is a total of 1,530 hours to research 8 traits. 63.75 days. Of course, you need to do weapons and armor. You can see the time requirements are extraordinary, and this is a very, very good thing. It means two things. No one will have all possible traits unlocked for months, possibly years. Secondly, as a direct effect of this, you'll have to depend on more than one crafter for your particular needs. Specializing for traits. I think enchantment may end up working like this too in the higher levels.

You apparently don't know the definition of arbitrary. It doesn't just mean random, it also includes personal whim. One of the developers just decided that crafting should take these amounts of time. They aren't based on any kind of logic or reason, just a time gate to slow players down artificially.

Hellorush wrote: »

I hope Zenimax won't listen to such threads and leave researching times as they are now. No need to make things easier, when they are fairly easy already

Crafting doesn't become any easier, it just becomes faster. What kind of difficulty curve is there in a game that just takes longer to play with no added difficulty?

Lupinemw wrote: »

Where is the fun in that, I like the challenge of it.

Adding time to the crafting does not make it any more challenging. Yes, you have to specialize with a time system. And new players can't do jack *** for months, and even then can't compete with veterans. People who can only play on the weekends can't compete with people who can play a bit every day. There's a reason I bolded that, because any system that discourages new players from joining is a horrible feature that should be removed, regardless of how players feel about it. Any system that penalizes people for not logging in daily is a horrible feature that should be removed, regardless of how players feel about it.

I'm not so much worried about this one system as I am worried about the possibility that time gates are used elsewhere. Just imagine if this turns into WoW, where dungeons can only be run once a day, trade skills require daily cooldowns, raids are limited to once a week, most of the end game content is fueled by dailies, etc. You can't play that game at any kind of a competitive level without logging in for 1-2 hours minimum every day. Not only does that system discourage new players, it discourages players from having real life jobs. Playing for 8+ hours on both weekend days won't catch you up anymore.

And that's what I fear is going to happen with ESO if the players keep embracing dumb, pointless, arbitrary time gates like the research system in crafting. I hope a developer reads this, because they will understand what I'm talking about, and the threat it poses, much better than most of you seem to.

UnknownXV

There was reasoning though. It was random, but with reason (it had to be long for the reason of enabling specialization viability).

At any rate, arbitrary or not is irrelevant. It's good that they take long to research. If they had chosen 5 or 7 hours as a base doesn't change much, and it was their design decision to make.

Chalybos

So you want them to remove the time sink because you're concerned about new players? How sweet. It's rare to see the "someone think of the children" logic applied to tradeskilling in a game.

Best crafting system I've seen yet, and I've played a few MMO's in my day. If someone's late to the game, unless they are a complete noob, they will understand that they will not be a major player overnight, and that yes, there is a curve to getting up to speed with the rest of the playerbase. Does it take time to level up your skills to max? Yes. That's what makes it rewarding in the first place. And if it discourages the "OMG I need to instalevel" crowd, that's a good thing. Those players are rarely in it for the long haul anyway.

RylukShouja

Someone who plays daily will always have an advantage over someone who only plays on weekends (assuming same potential skill level). You will be able to work on your combat more consistently, you will learn the ins and outs of crafting through guildies/general chat discussions, and you will be able to research traits more consistently.

However, it is easy to get around the "weekend player" disadvantage in crafting. Log in once a day for five minutes to hit up the three crafting stations. I did that this morning before work. I grabbed a couple muffins for breakfast and logged in. I had all my enchants for the morning lined up, as I has the pieces in my bank, and I just ran to the three stations and said "go." I was done before I finished my three muffins.

Ultimately, there is no need for a brand new player to have more than 2 traits on any one piece. If you're a casual player, you probably level slowly anyways, and the sets in the first zone only require 2 traits anyways. If you're a hardcore crafter, you will work hard to hit your timers efficiently and with a few skill points into the research passives you can cut the total time require considerably.

Ultimately, it's going to take months before someone can "craft anything," and there will be few people that take it that far. This is a good thing; it keeps supply/demand high, so if you see that and want it...there is the motivation for the grind.

If you want to be the best, at anything, it takes time and effort. If you are given everything for free, most people will lose interest and leave after playing with it for a while.

SadisticSavior

easy_lee wrote: »

To your first point, you obviously have never played guild wars 2 end game.

Never had a reason to, because I prefer MMOs. If I wanted team deathmatch I'd just plat Mechwarrior Online or Team Fortress.

Not taking anything away from GW mind you. But it is a different type of game. It is not a true MMO in my opinion, it is more like a team deathmatch. And I do not want to see ESO become like GW.

easy_lee wrote: »

And your second point only reinforces my own. If it truly is difficult to gather enough materials in order to advance each profession, then the research system doesn't need the time system tacked onto it.

The two systems work together in different ways. Mat gathering gives you a reason to explore the world and interact with people, which you would not need to do if it was simply about research time. If it was Mat only, it would be open to twinking and farming abuse. So the two systems together cancel these problems.

easy_lee wrote: »

Systems which serve only to inconvenience the player have no place in an MMO.

I agree. These systems serve a purpose beyond inconveniencing the player. This is not like GW or WoW...this game is about the journey at least as much as the destination. Thats a big part of it's appeal.

easy_lee wrote: »

The reason WoW was so successful is because it did away with most of the inconvenient features of EverQuest.

...and now it is bleeding players because people are sick of it. It's become a cliche. No one see's the point of having a character in that game that is not maxed out, because the "real" game is the end game. It's the Pokemon of MMOs.

If you like that type of game, then go play it. Go buy a powerlevelled twinked-out character and grind in the end game. A lot of people like that. But that type of game already exists....so I don't see the point of turning ESO into "WoW 2: Electric Boogaloo".

easy_lee wrote: »

As I've already said, the system that's in place only serves to force players to play a bit every day.

It's exactly the opposite. This system is made for casual players more than anything else, because you don't have to be logged in to advance.

SadisticSavior

easy_lee wrote: »

There's one more point I'd like to make, and this one's huge. In order for a game to grow, it needs new members.

So what? MMOs have survived before on a small player base. Eve has been going forever (I was one of the beta testers).

ESO does the theme park model better than any other game I have seen so far. It is about as sandboxxy as you can get for a theme park title. They have done a lot of things right.

easy_lee wrote: »

So let's say you're a new player joining six months or so down the line. You have all the makings of a top-tier player: lots of time to devote to the game, a healthy attitude, and you're a quick learner. You decide to take up crafting.

Then you realize the developers implemented time gates into the crafting system.

If you are only realizing that after 6 months, then you deserve what you get.

easy_lee wrote: »

Suddenly, there's absolutely no way for you to compete.

Why?

Seriously. Why? You are bound by the exact same rules everyone else is...why will you not be able to "compete"? You can do the exact same things everyone else can.

easy_lee wrote: »

The other crafters are already months ahead of you

They were already months ahead of you anyway, unless you joined at launch. And the only way that would matter is if you were a dedicated crafter. And if you are a dedicated crafter, it would not have taken you 6 months to learn the system anyway.

easy_lee wrote: »

Does that sound fair to you?

Yes. As fair as any other MMO. In every other MMO, the exact same criticism would apply. People will always have a head start on you if you join after launch.

easy_lee wrote: »

Veterans should not have an untenable advantage that newbies can never overcome. It stifles growth of the entire game.

Give me an example of a game where veterans do not have a huge head start on new players.

You can do everything the Veterans can do. That is true of every MMO. Including this one.

Iluvrien

SadisticSavior wrote: »

It's exactly the opposite. This system is made for casual players more than anything else, because you don't have to be logged in to advance.

Firstly, I am certainly not advocating the removal of research times. I am personally of the opinion that the exponential increase could be done away with because it isn't efficacious but that is for several reasons. I will go into only one of these right now.

In response to the quoted comment I would add that not only does the system favour casual players, it favours almost absent ones. A character that is given a few items, for example by guildmates, can log in once or perhaps twice a day, hit the stations and in a comparatively short period have access to several traits in several crafts. If this character was a unplayed crafting clone this becomes even worse as 2 characters set up in this fashion, by a group or guild, could study 4 traits each and could then have access to all 8 traits in a combined time of 3.75 days, as opposed to the 63.75 that it would take a single player attempting to do the same thing.

In short, this mechanic rewards you more for creating soulless crafting alts that are funded by a guild to be mere machines for turning out items than for creating a flavourful character that you play continuously. At least according to the numbers I have run.

Mansome

Research is fine as it is. If players are driven off by that then maybe they don't need to be playing this game in the first place. Personally the only change I would make would be to allow us to add multiple traits to an item. The set bonuses from the sets are horrible aside from the one where you are hidden.

Elvent

I haven't noticed but does researching work while offline as well? Or only game time?

Iluvrien

Elvent wrote: »

I haven't noticed but does researching work while offline as well? Or only game time?

Offline as well. Hence there is little enticement to stay on while researching traits.