Opulent Ordeal access problem

spiderlair88646

I’m a member of a number of discord servers and guilds in game and all are running into the same problem with this trial. The raid leads trying to organize groups to run opulent are struggling to find people who’ve completed the required steps to enter the trial.

What ends up happening is constant messaging and chasing people to make sure they have the required key to enter the trial together. This is a huge amount of time no one had to donate to already busy lead schedules. This has put undue burden on anyone trying to organize this trial for their guild.

I don’t think this was taken into consideration and I’m already seeing a lot of people just throwing their proverbial towel in and giving up on groups for opulent ordeal.

We understand why this was done to keep the zone active but we need to be able to stack keys so we can help others get ready without losing our work.

I’m not alone in being very frustrated with the requirements to enter the trial and I hope ZOS will please consider reevaluating the key requirements for the next night market

Treeshka

Maybe it is best if the groups start from the bottom. Farm Argents as 12 and then split into 3 for dungeons and then come together again for the raid.

The thing is, usual raid time for guilds in Europe server is around two hours. Opulent Ordeal takes maybe 15 minutes to complete, i mean one encounter.

My guild and some other guilds i have been part of had this problem as well. I think we are now used to it and this will not be that bad when Night Market is here second time.

code65536

I've run with four different organized (guild/discord) Opulent groups. Every single one of them assumes that everyone needs every key, and we plan around that.

So, instead of treating Opulent like a mini-trial, we treat it like a full trial.

First, we enter each district and run past all the trash, straight for the Brazens and Argents. Think of this like the trash pulls in a full trial.

Next, we break the group into 3 groups of 4 and do all the Gilded bosses. Think of this like the intermediate bosses in a full trial.

And once everyone has killed all three Gilded, we recombine the three groups back into a single group and then do Opulent. This is like the final boss of a full trial.

This is the way. Don't ask for keys. Make key acquisition a part of the package and budget time for it. With an organized group of 12, you can get all the keys pretty quickly. These groups will usually get all the Argent and Gilded keys within about an hour.

Soarora

code65536 wrote: »

I've run with four different organized (guild/discord) Opulent groups. Every single one of them assumes that everyone needs every key, and we plan around that.

So, instead of treating Opulent like a mini-trial, we treat it like a full trial.

First, we enter each district and run past all the trash, straight for the Brazens and Argents. Think of this like the trash pulls in a full trial.

Next, we break the group into 3 groups of 4 and do all the Gilded bosses. Think of this like the intermediate bosses in a full trial.

And once everyone has killed all three Gilded, we recombine the three groups back into a single group and then do Opulent. This is like the final boss of a full trial.

This is the way. Don't ask for keys. Make key acquisition a part of the package and budget time for it. With an organized group of 12, you can get all the keys pretty quickly. These groups will usually get all the Argent and Gilded keys within about an hour.

I tried that once and whilst it definitely seems to be the way to do it (and was fun), I couldn’t do it again because it was such a headache. People not wanting to farm keys they already have because it’d be a waste of their time/energy, people not wanting to waste their argent keys when they need those for a different run…

If keys are made to stack, then there’s no excuse for people to not join in on doing the full loop.

Cellentel

I agree with the points raised. This has proven to be a huge blocker towards engaging with the dungeon and trial portions of the Night Market. It's the only content in the game that has a true detrimental cost to engage in - by completing anything, you are unable to do it again without additional work. If you have another run coming up, helping that random person in guild chat with their dungeon clear means you have to go figure out how to re-gain your key. The idea makes sense in theory but falls apart in practice.

As was said before, letting the keys stack would help a lot. Then if you have to re-run the argents to help someone get their keys, you're not wasting your time if you already have your own. It would also help to lower the "cost" after the first time - maybe only one argent per district instead of both. The current seems to assume a perfectly coordinated group of 12 people who always play together, and therefore have their key states always in sync. That is very rare.

The other challenge to the approach of "run everyone through all the content during the trial session" is — what happens if someone drops out mid-run? In addition to the normal challenges of finding a fill, you also need to worry about their key state.

Necrotech_Master

absolutely agree, the keys should either be a one time unlock (for the duration of the night market), or allow you to stack them

i also feel that the trial is way more complex than it needs to be which would make it more daunting for pugs or first time runners to join

ceruulean

Another way is to make it so that keys are required to loot the boss/open chest. So you can enter without a key, but you can't loot. When I have to help others, I end up leaving early to preserve keys.

code65536

Soarora wrote: »

I tried that once and whilst it definitely seems to be the way to do it (and was fun), I couldn’t do it again because it was such a headache. People not wanting to farm keys they already have because it’d be a waste of their time/energy, people not wanting to waste their argent keys when they need those for a different run…

The problem is that some groups don't do this. If group A does the full package and group B doesn't, then group B's bad policy discourages someone from running in group A.

If all groups treated Opulent holistically, then this wouldn't be a problem.

Soarora wrote: »

If keys are made to stack, then there’s no excuse for people to not join in on doing the full loop.

Yes, it would be nice if keys could stack, but there is absolutely zero chance of that happening during this Night Market. There are too many things that need to be reworked, they need entirely new APIs, redesigns of the UI, etc. Such a change was unrealistic even back during PTS when this issue was first raised, and it's downright impossible now.

Maybe for NM 2.0, but any improvements for keys is completely off the table for NM 1.0 (unless it's something drastic like ignoring key requirements entirely), so I avoid dwelling on the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" and deal with the reality of the situation, which is why even before NM started, I made it clear to everyone that I was running with that key acquisition should be a part of Opulent and that this is how we should plan our runs.

ceruulean

Soarora wrote: »

I tried that once and whilst it definitely seems to be the way to do it (and was fun), I couldn’t do it again because it was such a headache. People not wanting to farm keys they already have because it’d be a waste of their time/energy, people not wanting to waste their argent keys when they need those for a different run…

I mean, it sucks but you have to be an elementary school teacher and say, "Any volunteers who will help this team get their keys?" and encourage prosocial behavior. Of course as a raid lead I will piece the rosters of people who need whatever dungeon and fill in as needed. At least most players are adults and can force themselves to do sucky things for the sake of running the trial.

katanagirl1

What if your trial lead gets sick while getting relics for everyone and is out for weeks and a subgroup of the most sweaty players just go on and do the trial themselves with other guilds? I think there are only three of us now who have expressed an interest in doing it and haven’t completed it yet. I haven’t seen the trial lead in a long time, he was frustrated trying to keep the team together before the NM hit and he may have quit after seeing this. You can’t make other people be considerate. This is a limited time event and it’s every man for himself.

Meanwhile trying to find a group that can clear when you are available has not been working out for me. I’m going to waste two sets of keys at the end of this I fear. I already farmed the second argent set in preparation for running it again. That’s a lot of time spent in the group finder just going down the drain.

tsaescishoeshiner

It's a huge barrier. I don't want to have to "prep" for a trial and find multiple groups to get dungeon keys and then complete the dungeons again.

I get that it's part of how they encourage the content to be repeated so that people can find groups for them, but I wish there was a workaround. Maybe you can spend Favor on keys once per day after you clear everything once?

spiderlair88646

I’m not even sure ZOS is aware of the extra work they’ve placed on already burdened raid leads. We’re all volunteers and filling any trail and having fills on standby is already difficult. When you add in the burden of making sure each person has completed the required steps to enter is a step too far in the opinion of every lead I’ve spoken with.

I’ve been in groups who tried the strat of farm first then trial but by the time that’s done everyone is tired and ready to move on to something else. I’m hearing this a lot.

The trial is fun but the homework to get into it is too much. I can’t see a way around that other then key stacking in future night market

spiderlair88646

“The problem is that some groups don't do this. If group A does the full package and group B doesn't, then group B's bad policy discourages someone from running in group A.

If all groups treated Opulent holistically, then this wouldn't be a problem.”

I’m truly happy for you to have the kind of time and energy it takes to do all the argents and dungeons with 11 others every time you want to run the trial but every player in ESO does not have that time.

That is the whole point I’m trying to make. This trial has a gate keeping issue and my understanding of what ZOS has been trying to do is make more content accessible to more people and requiring players to repeat content endlessly to enter the trial is the opposite of accessible.

The zone is fun, the trial is fun but players are feeling the fatigue already. Group finder today compared to the first weeks are proof.

We don’t have to agree but the way you suggest should not be the only approach

code65536

spiderlair88646 wrote: »

“The problem is that some groups don't do this. If group A does the full package and group B doesn't, then group B's bad policy discourages someone from running in group A.

If all groups treated Opulent holistically, then this wouldn't be a problem.”

I’m truly happy for you to have the kind of time and energy it takes to do all the argents and dungeons with 11 others every time you want to run the trial but every player in ESO does not have that time.

That is the whole point I’m trying to make. This trial has a gate keeping issue and my understanding of what ZOS has been trying to do is make more content accessible to more people and requiring players to repeat content endlessly to enter the trial is the opposite of accessible.

The zone is fun, the trial is fun but players are feeling the fatigue already. Group finder today compared to the first weeks are proof.

We don’t have to agree but the way you suggest should not be the only approach

I have never said that the key system is fine. I raised concerns about all this months ago during PTS. And I had raised them again during the live event in the official threads. But none of that is relevant because the fact is, this is the system that's in place and will be in place until the end of this event, since this is not something that they can redesign until NM 2.0 at the earliest.

Since this is the system that people will have to deal with until the event ends, then the best way to deal with it, in my view, is making key acquisition a part of the process.

You have to deal with the reality of the situation. Save your complaints for the feedback threads so that this doesn't happen for NM 2.0, but right now, for this event, it's either "plan for key acquisition" or "deal with the key chaos". Take your pick.

spiderlair88646

I’ve never asked or suggested a key change fior this cycle.

Doing the whole process for the majority of groups is just factually not possible due to players irl commitments

kevkj

I agree that the best way to approach it would be to consider getting the gilded (and even the argent) keys part of the trial itself. An efficient/lucky group could be trial ready in well under an hour and only need to budget a full hour for the whole thing. The issue understandably is that the people who already did the argents and gilded now feel that their time is being wasted.

Most obvious solution to me would be allowing the banking of 2 - 3 keys of each type. There's good reason not to allow an infinite stockpile of keys to keep the districts lively, but even allowing 2 would relieve so much friction.