Would you tolerate Vengeance style testing for PvE?

MISTFORMBZZZ · October 20

Yes

Respectfully all the pvp players had to tolerate it too, so the pve players have to tolerate it aswell.

Oh no nvm we did have a chance to not participate, by not playing, so according to some users we werent forced to do it.

Then deffo go for it, i still need some skins

Destai · October 20

No

No, of course not. But I also don't feel like it's a necessary test for PVE.

It's totally understandable to dislike Vengeance, but I don't know how else they would identify the core issues with Cyrodiil. I'm open to hearing alternatives, but I think it's something that we just have live through in hopes a solution is found.

robwolf666 · October 20

No

No reason to... PvE zones run fine on XB.

SwordOfSagas · October 20

No

As for someone who pvp's 80% of the time I play I say HELL NO it was a failure in pvp, so it would probably kill eso entirely if they did that in pve. Zos needs a new way of working stuff out without effecting the ebb and flow of stuff tbh.

DenverRalphy · October 20

Destai wrote: »

No, of course not. But I also don't feel like it's a necessary test for PVE.

It's totally understandable to dislike Vengeance, but I don't how else they would identify the core issues with Cyrodiil. I'm open to hearing alternatives, but I think it's something that we just have live through in hopes a solution is found.

If only they was something like a test server where all forms of testing could be performed without having to push it to the live servers.

PeacefulAnarchy · October 20

Yes

Sure, if it had a purpose, but I don't see how it would work.
PvP is players all around and the issues are load focused. Vengeance, in theory at least, is still an even playing field where players can PvP, and is something only testable with load. Cyro also already has a bunch of instance restrictions limiting knock on effects.

PvE has two forms, restricted instances and overland
Restricted instance pve is already load restricted. There are issues, but they can be tested by a small team, the issues are not about too many people. Moreover, vengeance style restrictions could only work if the content itself also changed, since a lot of content would not be completable with simplified skills. If they felt the need to do this then sure I'd be fine with it but it would be a ton more work.

overland pve has similar issues to pvp, and probably for similar reasons, although sharding and the fact that players generally don't need to congregate means it mostly shows up during events. If they wanted to try it I'd be open to it, though again, implementation is more complex.

One of the things that allows vengeance in pvp to work is that your pvp rewards always come in the mail, so they can do what they did and make inventory separate and grant rewards when you leave the instance. How would you do that in PvE where rewards are loot?

Muizer · October 20

Yes

If only they had developed and tested subclassing Vengeance style ........

MasterSpatula · October 20

This is a bad faith question, meant not to sincerely ask a question but to make a statement couched in the question. The comparison is based on a false equivalence, and the statement being made relies on a sense of grievance that is simply not based in truth.

The Vengeance tests are being done for us, not to us, and the tantrum some members or the community are throwing over them is embarrassing. The community has been begging ZOS to fix PVP for a decade. Nothing they've done has worked. So now they're trying to truly get to the bottom of the problem, and many members of the community have shown an abhorrent degree of entitlement as a result. You're not victims.

YandereGirlfriend · October 20

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Do we have any glaring issues with PvE performance? I do not think so. At least not to the point where we would need anything like Vengeance in PvE

Well you would be wrong in that feeling.

Plenty of lag, de-sync, random server kicks, mechanics not animating, etc. to be had in even in dungeons these days.

YandereGirlfriend · October 20

rothan117 wrote: »

Vengeance is happening because not enough players go on the test realm to reproduce the server stress and problems occurring in live realm cyrodil. Players want pvp performance fixed but you do not want to do what is needed to isolate the issues so they can be fixed. The problem has been building bit by bit for years, it is not a simple, quick fix.

You really want the issue fixed, just remove all sets etc. Too many variables have built up and are interacting with the addition of new sets with every content release. Result is degrading server performance that increases as population of the cyrodil zone increases. Isolating and fixing the issues requires live load levels, not test server environments.

They literally did this back in 2021/2 and it solved nothing.

Same performance but with a permanently depopulated campaign in the aftermath.

kargen27 · October 21

DenverRalphy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Is there a reason that it would need to be done, or is this just a "PvPers are being punished with Vengeance so we should also make everyone else play it too so they can see how bad it feels for us" whine?

If so, remember that it's not stated anywhere that Vengeance will be replacing Grey Host. Anywhere. I get it - it's not fun that the Combat team has been taking everyone for a ride lately. And the fact that U48, instead of balancing anything, is focusing exclusively on two week-long 'events' and allowing the nonexistent balance to languish until March is nothing short of insulting. But as much as it seems like ESO is moving toward Vengeance being made permanent, there is no suggestion that Grey Host will be replaced to make room for it (now the other Campaigns on the other hand...)

There's enough to be royally mad about with ESO in its current state without needing to invent new unconfirmed things to be mad at.

Perhaps I misinterpreted what the OP was asking. But to me it seemed not so much as worry over Vengeance becoming a permanent replacement. But instead that the PvP community is continually having their regularly scheduled programming interrupted with an excessive number of limited interruptions. I think that they'd rather be able to continue playing their game, good or bad as it may be, while ZOS does all their own playtesting elsewhere.

I know a lot of players that are hoping for a performance improvement in Cyrodiil and come back to the game from time to time to see if it is worth playing. Cyrodiil has been bad performance wise since calculations went server side to combat cheat codes. Putting up with a few days of test conditions once a month with the goal being an improved Cyrodiil experience I think is welcome by a large chunk of the PvP crowd. The worry is that we might be going through this and not see a desired end result.

If the original question gave us the preface of if every other time you use a wayshrine you gt disconnected do you think PvE'rs would tolerate something like Vengeance that would be maybe a fair comparison. PvP sometimes can be really bad and anything that could improve performance while still letting us have that feeling of combat we once had would be greatly appreciated. I'll put up with more Vengeance events if we eventually get there.

ceruulean · October 21

Yes

PvE meta is so bad that the devs probably need to do nuke the classes, redo skill trees and progression systems, and do a proper balance pass to accommodate subclassing.

ESO_player123 · October 21

No

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Do we have any glaring issues with PvE performance? I do not think so. At least not to the point where we would need anything like Vengeance in PvE

Well you would be wrong in that feeling.

Plenty of lag, de-sync, random server kicks, mechanics not animating, etc. to be had in even in dungeons these days.

Are you on PCEU? On PCNA I do not see anything close to what people say they are experience in Cyrodiil (I do not PvP, so I would not know) or anything at all that would require such drastic measure.

Rohamad_Ali · October 21

No

You made a powerful point for pvp players just with this post. Everyone can pretend they don't understand if they like.

HatchetHaro · October 21

Yes

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I actually hope they apply Vengeance rules to the Infinite Archive so that the power of your run comes primarily from your Visions, rather than what you bring into the IA from outside of it.

I can't name another roguelite that has such weak and meaningless perks and instead requires you to bring a build from an entirely different gamemode to progress far in it.

omg this, so much this. i really dislike having to make multiple builds and pray for multiple focused efforts visions in order to be optimal and be able to properly farm the place, so that's why i just steer clear. the point of a roguelike is the ability to pick it up any time you want and strategize based on the options it gives you.

peacenote · October 21

No

1. No... I'm not really tolerating it in PvP anymore, either... it has basically caused me to stop PvPing, for now.

2. Theoretically any bugs discovered in PvP on the player's side of things would also help PvE if fixed, no? They are all the same base abilities, passives, etc. If an ability, for example, was causing stuck in combat, that would ultimately be fixed everywhere including PvE, yes?

3. The Cyro test kind of made sense, for a while, because they were already used to scaling Cyro up and down for Midyear and making multiple copies of it with different rules over the years. It has the Battle Spirit concept already. Every copy has the same guards, the same maps, and the only difference was the players. It wouldn't translate well to PvE because the primary issues theoretically left to be discovered should be on the "environment" side which would likely NOT translate well to a broad test and be translatable and applicable across the board. The issues in Sunspire that we see, for example, are not the same as in Cloudrest. I am very tired of and done with Vengeance and whatever it is supposed to accomplish, but even I can see why Cyro was good for that kind of testing.

ToddIngram · October 21

Yes

If ZOS is going to implement templated PvP, then they should do it for PvE as well. It only makes sense.

Melivar · October 21

Maybe (Comment below)

For IA perhaps some classes are just way easier than others but scores are class based anyways.

But for some new trial or arena where they wanted to actually reward group skill and coordination versus just the most insane combos that allow you to eliminate certain phases.

tomofhyrule · October 21

Melivar wrote: »

but scores are class based anyways.

Not anymore as of U48. “Class based” leaderboards are going away, as is the chance to have multiple characters on a leaderboard.

One entry per account, no matter what you run. Because Classes no longer exist and there’s no point to alts.

StihlReign · October 21

Does PvE need damage caps? Maybe PvE does need a Vengeance test.

Everything is Beaaaaaam

Sarannah · October 21

MasterSpatula wrote: »

This is a bad faith question, meant not to sincerely ask a question but to make a statement couched in the question. The comparison is based on a false equivalence, and the statement being made relies on a sense of grievance that is simply not based in truth.

The Vengeance tests are being done for us, not to us, and the tantrum some members or the community are throwing over them is embarrassing. The community has been begging ZOS to fix PVP for a decade. Nothing they've done has worked. So now they're trying to truly get to the bottom of the problem, and many members of the community have shown an abhorrent degree of entitlement as a result. You're not victims.

^^ 100% agreed!

Tommy_The_Gun · October 21

Yes

If this would also mean "adjusting" all of the bosses & PvE mechanics so it would be doable with just a handful of skills & no sets.

fizzybeef · October 21

Yes

Oh yes i cant wait for this to happen 😍

valenwood_vegan · October 21

While I would not play pve vengeance, I do hope zos will take note of all the pvp players asking them to focus on pve!

Seems like the combat team has been totally tied up with vengeance and we still need that subclassing balance pass.

tomofhyrule · October 21

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Seems like the combat team has been totally tied up with vengeance and we still need that subclassing balance pass.

Ugh, don’t get me started…

An entire update dropping next week that includes:

The Writhing Fortress, which will be live for a week before being permanently shut down.
Vengeance 4, a weeklong test

Two weeks of stuff. And because of those two weeks, we have basically no chance of balance until March’s U49. Like… what?!?!

Since U46 dropped in June, they’ve pretty well only neutered DK sustain to attempt to balance Subclassing. Sorcs got their passives shuffled a bit, NBs got their gigabuff passive changed to a different very strong passive buff, and there’s a single bone being thrown to Necros next patch. That’s about it.

We’ve had patches with so much less going on that had so many tweaks. Why is there literally nothing since June?

SwordOfSagas · October 21

No

Also maybe if they added a very good reward for participating they would see the numbers. It's the kind of stuff companies usually pay to get done, or put on a public test server.

JohnRingo · October 21

Yes

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If this would also mean "adjusting" all of the bosses & PvE mechanics so it would be doable with just a handful of skills & no sets.

Absolutely this. I don’t have time or energy to farm optimized trial sets. However I would like to run trials with limited skills and sets. Saves me a ton of effort.

alpha_synuclein · October 22

Maybe (Comment below)

I don't see the need, but I am not against the idea in theory.

The thing is, I don't believe for a minute that zos won't choose the worst morphs possible and we'll still all end up beaming...