Is "teabagging" [still] considered Trolling and/or Toxic?

DominicanaDi · July 22

Recently, I reported some players who were taking turns and positioning themselves on top of my toon's and proceeded to repeatedly crouch on my character's body or what is commonly known as teabag. After ESO reviewed the video evidence, they determined that their behavior was not considered a violation of their Code of Conduct. As a response, I have been asking if "teabags" is not considered toxic anymore; more specifically, if this is *now* allowed, but no one has responded yet.

spartaxoxo · July 22

They are allowed but if someone asks you to stop, then you should stop. That's been the policy for a while and has not changed.

spartaxoxo · July 22

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all. We wanted to address the recent conversations around teabagging and proper etiquette around the action in-game. In the past, we have noted that context matters when teabagging in-game and when responding to that action. Teabagging in-game is generally not a direct violation of ToS. However, when an impacted player asks you to stop and you refuse, that is when we have crossed into targeted harassment territory. If this happens and the impacted player reports the incident with video proof, then an investigation will open for ToS violations for targeted harassment. This can lead to possible suspension or permanent ban. So please take requests to stop seriously.

For those reporting a potential violation, please make sure you provide a video that makes it clear that you asked the user who teabagged you in-game to please stop the action and continued action after the ask.

We hope this clears things up for everyone, especially as we are going into Whitestrake's Mayhem. Again, we understand why some players choose to engage in teabagging. As someone in this thread put it, we survived the 2000's Halo lobbies also. But we want to respect anyone's wishes who do not want to be subject to the in-game action of teabagging.

Additional update based on a question asking about users who are in offline mode or placed an impacted player on an ignore list: If a user is in offline mode or placed you on an ignore list, you should make an effort to post the request in a general channel. As long as the attempt of contact is made and seen in your video account, that will be factored in during the investigation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/662880/teabagging-update-would-be-good-before-mym/p3#Comment_8157509

Here's the most recent statement IIRC

Desiato · July 22

Out of curiosity, what about two players crouching and uncrouching repeatedly bothered you, exactly?

I know what the act is intended to represent, yet the way I described it is what they were actually doing. How did this affect you?

JavaRen · July 22

Desiato wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what about two players crouching and uncrouching repeatedly bothered you, exactly?

I know what the act is intended to represent, yet the way I described it is what they were actually doing. How did this affect you?

I'm sure this will lead to a helpful and informative discussion.

LadyGP · July 22

Not another one of these threads..... there are a very specific group of individuals that this is the hill they want to die on. It's not toxic IMO if done in good taste.

Tbagging is a right of passage way back to the early Halo days. When someone kills me and tbags me it's like a GG to me.

I don't think it's sexual in nature, I don't think anythingnegative about it. If it bothers you, ask them to stop, if they continue report it and move on.

Auberon1983 · July 22

Full disclosure, I have never T-bagged anyone before, and don’t plan on it. I also don’t mudball people.

But, I don’t mind when either are done to me. Honestly I usually don’t even notice a mudball as I’m too busy sprinting from A to B.

I do however, find it absolutely hilarious when a player who didn’t even get a hit in on my healer, let alone the killing blow, is who teabags. It’s like, bro/sis, you didn’t do anything, but don’t let that stop you from embracing your inner Ralph Wiggum.

tsaescishoeshiner · July 23

Desiato wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what about two players crouching and uncrouching repeatedly bothered you, exactly?

I know what the act is intended to represent, yet the way I described it is what they were actually doing. How did this affect you?

I know people who don't want to PvP because of teabagging. Teabaggers know what it's intended to represent, and that's how people experience it. Separate from feeling very violative, it's also bullying type of behavior.

And don't get me wrong--I know friends who like to teabag each other as a joke. I totally get that. With strangers, it's really rude and superioristic and toxic. It's like having someone try and flame you over chat, except you can't put them on ignore.

Technically, you do have to ask someone to stop before reporting them. Which has led to some really surreal conversations between me and the people I ask to stop lol. It's sort of funny.

Personally, I wish they would just make the crouch animation slower (just visually, not the time to actually enter sneak) so that it's less rewarding to teabag. Currently it's very responsive and fast, which encourages people.

SilverBride · July 23

Whether a player finds teabagging offensive or not, it does create a LOT of conflict that could be eliminated if the crouching animation was just changed. They could make the player semi transparent, for example. Anything other than what it is now.

The way is it now is just creating a lot of work for customer service, and this conflict isn't going to go away unless this animation is changed to something different.

Desiato · July 23

I'm well aware of different arguments, but I'm specifically interested in why the OP reported, which is a fair question because they posted about it here.

Making the crouch animation slower would have a detrimental effect on gameplay. I think the onus here should be on the individual to put what's actually happening into perspective.

LadyGP · July 23

SilverBride wrote: »

Whether a player finds teabagging offensive or not, it does create a LOT of conflict that could be eliminated if the crouching animation was just changed. They could make the player semi transparent, for example. Anything other than what it is now.

The way is it now is just creating a lot of work for customer service, and this conflict isn't going to go away unless this animation is changed to something different.

How do you know it's causing "a lot of work for customer service".

Based on the never ending cycle of these threads, usually created by the same people, I'm sure there is a core handful who are the "reporters in chief". Aside from those select few... I highly doubt it's anything substantial.

If anything CS is bogged down with chats being flagged... not this nonsense.

LadyGP · July 23

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what about two players crouching and uncrouching repeatedly bothered you, exactly?

I know what the act is intended to represent, yet the way I described it is what they were actually doing. How did this affect you?

I know people who don't want to PvP because of teabagging. Teabaggers know what it's intended to represent, and that's how people experience it. Separate from feeling very violative, it's also bullying type of behavior.

And don't get me wrong--I know friends who like to teabag each other as a joke. I totally get that. With strangers, it's really rude and superioristic and toxic. It's like having someone try and flame you over chat, except you can't put them on ignore.

Technically, you do have to ask someone to stop before reporting them. Which has led to some really surreal conversations between me and the people I ask to stop lol. It's sort of funny.

Personally, I wish they would just make the crouch animation slower (just visually, not the time to actually enter sneak) so that it's less rewarding to teabag. Currently it's very responsive and fast, which encourages people.

I mean, make it 10 seconds... I'll still sit there and tbag my frenimies that I have played against in cyro for 10 years now while they are dead on the floor. It's all good fun. Now, if one of them told me to stop 100% I would.

Desiato · July 23

tbagging is what's called gamesmanship in sports. It exists because it's effective. It is part of ALL competitive environments from sports to business.

In hockey, it's actually part of some summer camps for young people hosted by pros because it's so effective -- and also because learning to deal with it is an essential skill to learn. Not just in hockey, but in life.

Learning to deal with it is a rite of passage which many gamers celebrate by engaging in it.

I understand some people have had experiences that make it very stressful for them, and I am very sympathetic to them. Yet, it's actually impossible for society to adapt to every sensitivity that people may have.

There's a big difference between actually being harmed by it and not being able to deal with taunting; the latter is FAR more common IMO.

Furthermore, I happen to believe the policy is weaponized to hurt others far more often than it actually causes harm to someone. I can't prove that of course. I don't tbag often, but when I do I usually have some understanding of the player who died and I know for a fact they are unbothered by it. Yet, those who complain to me and threaten to report would LOVE it if they could get someone suspended or banned for doing it.

Erickson9610 · July 23

SilverBride wrote: »

Whether a player finds teabagging offensive or not, it does create a LOT of conflict that could be eliminated if the crouching animation was just changed. They could make the player semi transparent, for example. Anything other than what it is now.

The way is it now is just creating a lot of work for customer service, and this conflict isn't going to go away unless this animation is changed to something different.

Why change the animation? It's meant to show your character preparing to stealthily sneak around. That animation is important for other aspects of the game.

SilverBride · July 23

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Whether a player finds teabagging offensive or not, it does create a LOT of conflict that could be eliminated if the crouching animation was just changed. They could make the player semi transparent, for example. Anything other than what it is now.

The way is it now is just creating a lot of work for customer service, and this conflict isn't going to go away unless this animation is changed to something different.

Why change the animation? It's meant to show your character preparing to stealthily sneak around. That animation is important for other aspects of the game.

Something needs to be done because this issue isn't going to just go away.

spartaxoxo · July 23

Desiato wrote: »

tbagging is what's called gamesmanship in sports.

It's also one of the most universal gestures in video gaming, if not THE most universal one. It's extremely common. Most PvP gamers have experienced it, seen it, or partaken themselves, I'd imagine. It's so universal that game companies even made ads and it's been featured in The Simpsons. It's the equivalent of flipping the bird IRL, which is another gesture that you can use as an emote in this game, although that one is done tongue and cheek rather than the full thing. It just means "I'm better at the game than you," at this point. Taunts are a part of a lot of competitive environments.

Desiato · July 23

SilverBride wrote: »

Something needs to be done because this issue isn't going to just go away.

Not everything some people don't like needs to go away. Pretty much everything is disliked by someone. It is literally impossible for society to adapt to the sensitivities of every individual. So we need to put things into perspective and learn to deal with the things we don't like to the greatest degree possible.

This is especially important when living in a free society. Something too many people have forgotten.

JavaRen · July 23

I'm just amused that you can be actioned on this forum for defining tea bagging using technical, anatomical, terminology, but it is, by default, acceptable to do it in game.

Djennku · July 23

The fact is the T bagging issue is one of those "nothing burgers". It is something so insignificant in the wider scope of life that it really doesn't matter.

It is a thing that has existed in many online pvp games for over decade when players could only use emotes to communicate.

If people dislike what others do in pvp that much, they need to go do something else. Nothing is forcing players to continue to engage in a game/game system they do not enjoy. Most of us are legal adults and make our own decisions, including any consequences (good or bad) that may cone of it.

I do not support the mindset that because a person dislikes something about a game, the game should change to cater to them. It is a very selfish and entitled mentality.

However, I strongly believe that some level of common courtesy, respct, and basic human decency should be given to everyone, and when someone requests you to stop doing something they have an issue with involving them, within reason, continuing your behavior to intentionally harass them is wrong.

Going back to T bagging, unless that person is deliberately targeting you and doing it to harass you (this becomes very obvious), there are ways to deal with encountering things in game you are not a fan of in a mature way, the primary one being going somewhere else and not engaging with the things making you upset.

spartaxoxo · July 23

JavaRen wrote: »

I'm just amused that you can be actioned on this forum for defining tea bagging using technical, anatomical, terminology, but it is, by default, acceptable to do it in game.

What you do in the game is not the same thing as the definition IRL.

JavaRen · July 23

Then why do we call it by that name?

Erickson9610 · July 23

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Whether a player finds teabagging offensive or not, it does create a LOT of conflict that could be eliminated if the crouching animation was just changed. They could make the player semi transparent, for example. Anything other than what it is now.

The way is it now is just creating a lot of work for customer service, and this conflict isn't going to go away unless this animation is changed to something different.

Why change the animation? It's meant to show your character preparing to stealthily sneak around. That animation is important for other aspects of the game.

Something needs to be done because this issue isn't going to just go away.

Is this animation better?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2xkQSbr6io

allochthons · July 23

Honest question about this process, not about whether the action is objectionable or not:

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

However, when an impacted player asks you to stop and you refuse, that is when we have crossed into targeted harassment territory. If this happens and the impacted player reports the incident with video proof, then an investigation will open for ToS violations for targeted harassment.

On console, if you're in PvP, how do you ask the tea-bagger to stop? You can't whisper the person if they're in a different alliance,* and they can't see your /say or /zone conversation. Are we supposed to catch their name, and contact them through PSN/[xbox equiv]?

* maybe you can if they're still near, and you're rezzed by an alliance-mate, but that doesn't happen very often? I've never been able to figure out how to ask the offender to stop, and therefore can't report.

SilverBride · July 23

The whole process of asking a player not to teabag when there may be no way to message them, and immediately start videoing not only the first teabagging but the request to stop, and then them not stopping, all to prove it happened seems very cumbersome at best.

Just change the crouching animation and put an end to this.

spartaxoxo · July 23

JavaRen wrote: »

Then why do we call it by that name?

It actually wasn't originally called that name and there were other alternative names for it that were popular too. Unfortunately, it really gained prominence at the same time those COD/Halo lobbies where people were just saying things the most offensive way possible all the time.

Desiato · July 23

JavaRen wrote: »

Then why do we call it by that name?

How do you know what a player crouching and uncrouching calls it? How one takes it is up to them because it's actually quite ambiguous. You don't know what they're imagining or what they're trying to convey.

Maybe some players have been misreading the keybind?

That's a U, not a T!

Major_Toughness · July 23

Toxic? No.
Harassment? No.
Aggravating? Maybe.

The fact it is an "offense" that can you banned is a joke.

JavaRen · July 23

So what I am hearing is "it"s not sexual, the name is a historic artifact, it's just taunting the person who lost to you."

So, while that is better, it still sounds immature and toxic to me.

ApoAlaia · July 23

I have a negative association with this action it because in my mind is part of the whole 'anonimity fueled puerile antisocial behaviour package', along with the endless stream of slurs and generally objectionable language, we had to endure in the past (maybe is still a thing? I don't experience it because I no longer partake).

Furthermore I don't engage on it myself because I see it as something that would be wholly unacceptable in real life (imagine after a tennis match the winner jumping the net and instead of shaking the losers hand they tackle them to the floor and proceed to dangle their gonads above the now prostrated player's face for instance).

Said that this could perfectly be a 'me issue'. Is hard for me to tell where my 'online persona' ends and where my 'irl persona' starts so behaving 'online' in ways that I would find objectionable 'offline' comes with some amount of psychological discomfort that I would much rather spare myself.

Ultimately, as a species, we are stuck in an endless adolescence; I just try not to embrace it too much.

Major_Toughness · July 23

You have to realise these are video games.

You can't voice communicate with your opponents, other than on Keyboard it's not convenient to type to them, and there's only so many actions you can do.

Especially when you look historically at FPS games they don't have emotes. You either crouch, or look down at the body and shake your camera side to side to move your characters head, arms, or weapon, to say "No", imitating shaking your head. Or simply repeatedly stepping on/over them.

Plenty of people have seen or been in fights, or competitive sport, in real life. How many times have you been tbagged by your opponents? Zero. It's not realistic, it is what you can do in the confines of video games.

Defatank · July 23

Its good that the devs have put out a response to this issue as it does aggro players and some just laugh about it and go on about their day. There is an issue though with the process that the devs have put out there though and I have personally raised this issue in the past.

1. We have been instructed to Message the player teabagging and just ask them to stop. If the player is appearing offline naturally the message request will not go through so its literally impossible to ask them to stop so that in of itself protects players who want to run around teabagging everyone and never be in trouble for it because they can simply say "I never got a message request asking me to stop"

2. Players appearing offline can freely message whoever they want and replies back to them cant be received so it gives them the ability to just spout off at the mouth whatever they feel and hide behind their internet curtain from getting any rebuttal. Which personally "winning" an argument on the internet I personally feel like is about as effective as coming in 1st place at the local county fair for the largest pumpkin grown.

3. Players who wish to continuously run around and teabag people or even "target" them could simply block their target as well which also will result in their target being unable to message them asking them to stop too which again leads back to point #1 of "I never received a message to stop teabagging" which means the person running around teabagging never broke the TOS since they cant receive the message to stop.

The point that I am making here is that internet bullies honestly have an upper hand here of being able to hide behind the internet with no risk of accountability because they can use loop holes to protect themselves from the TOS and furthermore use these loopholes to grief players while keeping the people they're harassing at bay from being able to defend themselves from the harassment.

Really the only option that the good players have is to block the people harassing them and then the person trying to harass them still gets the final laugh they want of "hahahaha he blocked me so weak" etc etc etc. Its pathetic really but like I said earlier "winning" some fight on the internet is really pointless. Just play the game, have fun and dont be a jerk. There's going to be bad actors of course in anything with life. Let them do their little teabag dance on everyone they kill, ignore it, move on and let them be miserable because that is the level they strive to exist with. Now to the players who teabag because they managed to get the upper hand on a group of players that should have killed them and there is some previous beef with other fights (basically the legit teabagging) ya'll of course are excluded from that because that is what is "sportsman like" conduct that has existed in games since the 2000s halo lobbies. This garbage of teabagging anyone and everyone you come across you're the problem and you need to change your outlook on life and be a more productive member of the community and society as a whole.