Upcoming U47 PTS changes, based on feedback

YoshinJaa

I personally think one way to address pure vs subclassed passives is to make it so that subclassing can only get Rank 1of each passive where as the class gets up to Rank 2.

Up the bonus/power of Rank 1 so that it doesn't feel weaker but make sure Rank 2 is potent (but not OP of course) to give playing a class more advantage besides Class Mastery and Sets. Arguably the same as Rank 2 is on Live right now but give the new Rank 2 like 1.2x more power.

Also wouldn't hurt to revisit some nerfs you all made to stuff like Twisting Path and reverting it to entice the skill line. Good for PvE Shadow and stronger but not as advantageous for PvP Shadow if one was to spec for it, for example.

Erickson9610

YoshinJaa wrote: »

I personally think one way to address pure vs subclassed passives is to make it so that subclassing can only get Rank 1of each passive where as the class gets up to Rank 2.

Up the bonus/power of Rank 1 so that it doesn't feel weaker but make sure Rank 2 is potent (but not OP of course) to give playing a class more advantage besides Class Mastery and Sets. Arguably the same as Rank 2 is on Live right now but give the new Rank 2 like 1.2x more power.

That would not be a good change. Skill lines should maintain parity regardless of whether they're subclassed or not.

Dino-Jr

These changes are pretty great thanks for posting this.

While ya'll are reading can you please do something to hide other player's sorc bird person summons while in towns and cities? The # of flappy bird people is really getting out of hand and destroying the vibe of your game.

deximasb14_ESO

I am a scrub who enjoys playing the way i want, However i also like to min/max a bit. Arc skill line is crazy good and that's FINE. I personally like a great deal of build variety, what feels like an easy fix for that and to help with the hit for the arc friends that are worried about the class script change.
make tome-bearer give a crux with all direct damage while active or something to that effect, add the flavor to another button so we don't all feel forced into arc. I could think of a ton of fun combos with this change. all in all i think crux generation should change a bit to play better with other skill lines. if your worried about it being op put a cooldown on the generation to like per 1 sec or something to make it like some of the other things. I also think just a general sweep of all class passives would be fantastic also, if it only works with that skill line.. change it. make it work with everything to some effect. Not every passive needs to be meta but they should all have a flow with other classes.
thanks a ton for the bringing some fun sorc changes! as a stam sorc main since beta im happy to know we still rock!

LINCARD1000

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

3. Pureclass's need a buff per same skill tree present.

This is a thought that occurred to me, also. I wonder if some concerns from players who want to play a pure - or mostly pure class (i.e. no subclassing, or subclassing with just a single other skill line) could be met by introducing some sort of passive(?) buff if you use 2 or more skill lines from any class. In other words, have some sort of (unique?) single buff if you run two of your native skill lines, and maybe a double buff - or whatever - if you're a pure class (all three skill lines used, no subclassing).

That way, subclassing still gets benefits from the passives etc from each skill line they use, but pure (or semi-pure) classes aren't left behind with unique buff(s) that bring their performance up to, or close to a full 3-line subclass build.

If that makes sense :-)

Not sure if that's doable, sensible or what, there may be unintended consequences, but something akin to that would be very much in the ethos of the "play the way you want" without anyone being penalized if they choose not to use subclassing, or not use it fully.

BlackLabel

Now we just need the get bound aeges it’s max mag back so Daedric summoning line would be viable to use finally!

VirtualElizabeth

/waves @ZOS_Amy


ElizabethinAustin AKA ElizabethInSeattle

ESO @ElizabethInTamriel

ESO_Nightingale

This is a really nice post to see

Zyaneth_Bal

As things stand currently lightning form needs it's major resolve and it got it back which is good, however, bound armour having major resolve wasn't in itself a bad idea.
Now that bound aegis no longer grants 8% maximum magicka it's mostly worthless for any purpose other than tanking, so maybe it could actually retain major resolve instead of either of the minor buffs (or not instead even?) as an alternative to hurricane. I don't see an issue with a class having two sources of major resolve to choose from, I think it's nice to have some unique choice and this could give bound aegis a new reason to be used while potentially helping sorcerer tanks with cramped bar space.

Lebensf0rm

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I'm a bit disappointed to see no mention of Grim Focus here.

The change is a pretty significant nerf for pure NB, because of how the class line is being used in subclassing.

I do agree that the ability should be active and not just a passive, and ironically, U46's change to allow it to stack to 10 was a major part of shifting this skill into a passive.

If reverting the 10-stack is not something you want to do, then perhaps another option is to grant X weapon/spell damage for Y number of seconds whenever the bow is fired.

NB never needed nor deserved that ridiculous giga-buff when it happened. Justified nerf is justified on an already overloaded skill.

While we're at it, restore the Pen bonus to flanking so that it does not continue to contribute to PvE power-creep. That was another ridiculous and unnecessary buff, particularly with how jealously ZOS has guarded Crit Chance over the last several years. To just hand out a giant unique tranche of Crit Chance was completely bewildering in U46.

If need be, shift the power to another skill or preferably another skill line altogether (such as the unloved and forgotten Shadow).

I don't think there's a point to such a drastic reduction in player power after introducing it. Player power should either go up or stay the same with each patch. Nerfs just straight up feel bad and make the game less fun, especially in PvE, where most of the purely passive use of Grim Focus happens. I think Code is right in suggesting that we should be given more reason to use Grim Focus actively if that's what the devs think would justify the skill's passive weapon/spell damage component.

You're totally right that Shadow needs a lot of love. Many of the game's other trees do too.I don't think that needs to come at Assassination or Grim Focus' expense, though. Assassination should be treated as a model for future skill line rebalances rather than an outlier to be nerfed. If anything needed to be reined in, it was passive crux generation: people aren't casting Grim Focus when they have it in PvE because the bulk of their GCDs are flail or Fatecarver.

Lord_Hev

YoshinJaa wrote: »

I personally think one way to address pure vs subclassed passives is to make it so that subclassing can only get Rank 1of each passive where as the class gets up to Rank 2.

Up the bonus/power of Rank 1 so that it doesn't feel weaker but make sure Rank 2 is potent (but not OP of course) to give playing a class more advantage besides Class Mastery and Sets. Arguably the same as Rank 2 is on Live right now but give the new Rank 2 like 1.2x more power.

Also wouldn't hurt to revisit some nerfs you all made to stuff like Twisting Path and reverting it to entice the skill line. Good for PvE Shadow and stronger but not as advantageous for PvP Shadow if one was to spec for it, for example.

This would be a very straightforward and equally fair 'blanket' balance and it makes the most logical sense while compromising on subclass as an option. Only the base class should be the masters of their native class passives.

tomofhyrule

Erickson9610 wrote: »

YoshinJaa wrote: »

I personally think one way to address pure vs subclassed passives is to make it so that subclassing can only get Rank 1of each passive where as the class gets up to Rank 2.

Up the bonus/power of Rank 1 so that it doesn't feel weaker but make sure Rank 2 is potent (but not OP of course) to give playing a class more advantage besides Class Mastery and Sets. Arguably the same as Rank 2 is on Live right now but give the new Rank 2 like 1.2x more power.

That would not be a good change. Skill lines should maintain parity regardless of whether they're subclassed or not.

I think the biggest problem with the different views of Subclassing are the fact that there are two schools of thought on how it works, and those are diametrically opposed to each other. This means that one person's "perfect suggestion" is another person's "obviously wrong idea."

I think everyone can get behind the idea of a character who is built to be focused in one way should be more powerful than, and have more drawbacks than, a character who is a jack of all trades, master of none. The issue is... how do you define the "focused in one way" versus the "jack of all trades?"

School of thought 1: We're talking about the character's role.
These are the people who think that the character's position in the Holy Trinity is the important thing. A character who is focused into being a Damage Dealer would be one with three DPS lines, and therefore they should absolutely have higher DPS than someone who is spreading their lines out to take one each of a tank/healer/DPS line. This also means the 3xDD character should have weaknesses in not being able to survive much at all, and they will require healers/tanks to support them. Pureclasses are normally set up to be able to do every role, so they are more the jack-of-all-trades types, and therefore the suggestion to "buff pureclasses!" makes no sense since they should be lower DPS since they are not focused purely on one role.
In essence, the Subclassed build is the focused one, and the pureclass is the jack of all trades.

School of thought 2: We're talking about the character's archetype.
These are the people who favor the idea of Class identity. They see each Class as playing slightly differently - DKs tend to be tanky and mostly pressure with DoTs and poison/burning status effects, but they suffer from low sustain and no execute power; NBs are sneaky stabby assassins with high burst and great single target damage, and basically no cleave; and the like. They see a pureclass as someone who is all-in on their character's skills and has to play to their Class's strengths and weaknesses. A Subclass, however, allows players to take skills from another class to cover those weaknesses, and therefore they're making themselves more versatile. They therefore think that buffing pureclasses is obvious since the Subclass is extending its capabilities, so it should logically be sacrificing power to do so.
In essence, the pureclassed build is the focused one, and the Subclass is the jack of all trades.

Until it's clear which is the goal, people will argue that their view on Subclassing is the right one and the people who choose the alternate one are wrong wrong wrong. And even ZOS's answers aren't entirely clear which is the favored one - the official article quotes the designer as saying "We know the Subclassing system will infuse power into the player community. For example, players can drop their tank and support skill lines for more damage-dealing abilities and passives," which implies the first school of thought, but then the same article also quotes the same designer right afterwards with "Also, there is no desire to reduce the effectiveness of pure classes...Class identity is still important for key aspects of our game," which implies the second.

Personally, I fall into the second school of thought. Firstly, the game itself is not completely designed for the first school of thought - the current Classes do not all fall nicely into strict tank/heal/DPS lines, so the "stack three DPS lines" is not possible in all cases - sure Arcanist is clearly defined, but most of the basegame Classes are all muddled together with important skills for all three roles mixed throughout all lines, and there is even a faction of people trying to turn the Warden tank line into a second DPS line. Secondly, going all in on damage should also come with the weakness of being as sturdy as wet tissues, but ESO's combat disproportionally awards high damage and the ability to skip mechanics, meaning that if your damage is high enough your weaknesses don't ever come into play (and conversely, lower damage means you need to focus more on survivability which makes your damage lower which means more survivability, which means...). Finally, ESO's design of only having 10 skills + 2 ultimates means characters are already pretty focused into a role regardless of which skill lines they have since they already have to be judicious about what to slot.

But also, the second just feels more natural from an RPG perspective. ESO's Class system is most similar to a game like D&D (moreso now, where multisubclassing is just a way to expand your character's possibilities but make it so they lose access to the most powerful spells of their parent Classes). But if you go up to a table of D&D players and ask "what's your character?" they'll say "he's a Paladin!" or "she's a Sor/lock!" Just from that, you have an idea of what the character can do. People don't really say "he's a tank," because that doesn't tell you much - are you tanking by having high AC, or high HP, or using a lot of goading attacks, or...
Heck, we can even bring that back to the standard TES games: ask anyone what their Skyrim character is like and you won't get "I play a damage dealer." They say "I play a stealth archer." Again, they describe the character archetype, not necessarily the role.

I definitely think that modifying the passives is the best way to go about trying to balance this monster. But the first thing that needs to be done is to define what is meant by a "focused" build and what is the "jack of all trades" build - are you focusing on one role versus being able to do all roles on one build, or are you focusing on one Class identity versus expanding your skillset to cover your Class's shortcomings?

MashmalloMan

Thank you for listening to feedback.

1. I'm happy with this ult gen compromise, while I don't think it will be as advantagous as before to combine "cast x, get x ult, every 4-16s', I do think there will be some instances where a player does benefit from double dipping. Maybe like a 20-40% buff vs nothing since it's usually impossible to cast skills on perfect cooldowns for those types of passives. A lot of the skill lines in question need revisions anyway like Dawn's Wrath and Siphoning, so I hope to see more incentives outside of ult gen in the future.
2. I and some others were suggesting this type of idea to grant something if the user has a crux, so I'm really happy to see it considered. I hope it's worth it enough to use on Banner, but not entirely a must have. Arcanist will always have the highest flexibility for space and Banner due to its over reliance on Fartcarver, so I hope that you introduce some more build diversity in the future as the Banner nerf will not stop 8/12 damage dealers in trials from using it. Step in the right direction at least.
3. Sorc. Lots to say here:
   • Bound Armaments and Relentless Focus are virtually the same now except Relentless does 21% more damage, costs 270 less, burst heals, and fires in 1 shot instead of 4 easy to dodge shots. While I'm happy you're at least attempting to buff Bound Armaments, higher Sundered chance only makes up for DPS side, what about cost, healing, or counterplay? There's also the underlying problem of Daedric Summoning being a bad skill line, but that is a long term goal I hope you seek to improve, as it stands, if I want to use Bound Armaments, I'll just ignore Daedric Summoning and pick up Assassination for Grim Focus.
   • Moving the 8% stam and magicka to Dark Magic is interesting...
     • On one hand, you've further separated Sorc's skill lines making it increasingly difficult to engage with Subclassing. Eg. A Hardened Ward Mag Sorc needs all 3 skill lines to be competitve. Storm Calling so they get 108 w/s damage per slotted, Daedric Summoning for Ward + 5% Mag, and Dark Magic for 8% Mag. At least before, Dark Magic could be swapped out becasue the 13% Magicka was in 1 place.
     • On the other hand, moving it makes Dark Magic more enticing, and right now it's suffering. Although, I think it's a missed opportunity to not add this to Exploitation passive instead of Blood Magic, an already good passive. NB's Hemorrhage passive gives Minor Savagery and 10% crit damage, so it would make sense there. Plus, Minor Prophecy should be moved to Storm Calling where it belongs, this Sorc mixed bag forcing us out of subclassing is only being reinforced with all these changes. I was hoping to see more flexibility.
   • You fixed my initial issue with the changes which was forcing Major Resolve as a morph decision, to which no other class in the game needed to do. Thank you. Huge win.
   • You also moved Major Resolve back to Lightning Form, a much more fun way to source the important buff, something that highlights why Storm Calling may not be the best DPS option, but it provides a lot of utility. We've had this for 11 years, and I'm happy to see it stay. Huge.
   • What is happening with Minor Force and Dark Deal? Minor Force being moved to an active damage skill rather than a sustain tool made a lot more sense as it becomes available to damage dealers of any type, mag or stam. The buff is not super important in pve because there is multiple easy sources to obtain it, but the attempt to introduce some much needed build diversity was admirable and I hope that remains.
   • Please consider the following:
     • Move minor force to Mages Fury or Lightning Splash. These skills are behind from a pve dps perspective, and yes they need major adjustments still, but having "Minor Force for slotting" would do wonders for build diversity/flexibility. We already have to go to Daedric Summoning for Major Prophecy/Savagery and Dark Magic for Minor Prophecy, why not allow some named damage buffs to be sourced from the damage line; Storm Calling.
     • Mages Fury and morphs would be my favourite pick as 80% of any fight the skill does nothing on a Sorc's bar. While I don't think this would be enough to bring back the skill from the dead, it would be a fantastic start with hopefuly some changes to come in the future.
     • If Minor Force moves back to Dark Deal.. please keep the 20s duration on Minor Berserk + Minor Force. Stam Sorc's do not find juggling this skill every 10s enjoyable, primary focus should be sustain with a secondary focus on buff management, not the reverse. If it does go back, consider placing Minor Force on all morphs so Mag Sorc using Dark Exchange can source it, the morph choices are interesting enough with the mag/higher total value vs stam/shorter, but quicker resources.

VvwvenomwvV

I was looking forward to having Major Resolve from Bound Aegis, but now it's back on Hurricane. My hopes were to have Bound Aegis, gain Major Resolve, then add to my build with a monster set, etc. Having to activate Hurricane to keep the resistance up was a nuisance, especially when tanking, if you were counting on those resistances to not get 1-shot. A passive Major Resolve that will work while on either bar would have been awesome. This would have opened up many awesome build combinations.

If possible, can you please add a skill that grants Major Resolve while slotted on either bar?

MashmalloMan

Since we're talking sorc design so much.. Why not move Major Prophecy/Savagery to Surge? I don't know where I'd put Major Brutality/Sorcery now that Major Resolve is back to Lightning Form, but the skill requires the player to crit, then the class spreads out the crit buffs to Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning where they don't really belong. This makes it difficult to engage with subclassing. A bunch of skill lines that aren't great at anything, succeed at nothing.

From that perspective, a Sorc has to take 3 lines which NB's Assassination can do in 1. This is a big reason why it's so popular, it's just well desgined, it's why I previously ignored Dark Magic/Daedric Summoning, and why I'll continue to do so with U47. Major/Minor Crit Chance, passives for crit chance and crit damage, along with a spammable, burst, execute, and dps ultimate.

Same logic applied to Sorc is:

• Storm Calling: Execute, DPS passives
• Daedric Summoning: Burst, dots, DPS ultimate, Major Crit
• Dark Magic: spammable, Minor Crit

And yes I know they all do something unique that Assassination maybe can't, but it's excellent food for thought as to what you're asking Sorcs to do now. Either all classes should behave this way or none of them should, at the very least move the Major/Minor crit to Storm Calling to make that role easier even if you can't also move skills around... although Crystal Frags as the outlier should leave Dark Magic in my opinion. Trying to make 3 lines competitive for damage dealing in the future will never happen, but I can see a pet vs non pet dynamic between Daedric Summoning and Storm Calling as they both fill niches that Dark Magic can't compete with.

Drackolus

Love the idea of making Bound Armor have an increased duration. I don't like using it because the cost to duration ratio feels too steep. I've also been arguing that all the max stat bonuses should be in Dark Magic, and more focus be put on pets in Daedric Summoning.
I also like passive major buffs just because it makes one bar builds that don't use oakensoul stronger, which I recognize is not really a huge consideration, but a lot of people like one-bar builds. But for specifics, I still would like to point out that passive major brutality/sorcery is on Herald of the Tome, which gives it an additional unique thing on arguably the most distinctive dps line. I think adding Savagery and Prophecy to Grim Focus deviates heavily from it's original purpose, and actually grants MORE synergy with Herald of the Tome. Changing it to brutality/sorcery would make it more versatile while making the single most powerful skill line combo at least a little less powerful. And yes, I know Nightblade already gets that buff from Siphoning. I don't think manor buff redundancy is a bad thing - gives pure class Nughtblades a little more choice. I also really don't like the idea of putting minor protection on Shadowy Disguise. Shadow is in no way a dps line, and that little bit of extra damage helps keep the fantasy of a stealthy assassin in pve alive. It's a clear move AWAY from non-subclassing viability when lines become useless for your role.


And it's where I'm getting that buff for my summoner build so please don't nerf my baby

Lebensf0rm

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

YoshinJaa wrote: »

I personally think one way to address pure vs subclassed passives is to make it so that subclassing can only get Rank 1of each passive where as the class gets up to Rank 2.

Up the bonus/power of Rank 1 so that it doesn't feel weaker but make sure Rank 2 is potent (but not OP of course) to give playing a class more advantage besides Class Mastery and Sets. Arguably the same as Rank 2 is on Live right now but give the new Rank 2 like 1.2x more power.

That would not be a good change. Skill lines should maintain parity regardless of whether they're subclassed or not.

I think the biggest problem with the different views of Subclassing are the fact that there are two schools of thought on how it works, and those are diametrically opposed to each other. This means that one person's "perfect suggestion" is another person's "obviously wrong idea."

I think everyone can get behind the idea of a character who is built to be focused in one way should be more powerful than, and have more drawbacks than, a character who is a jack of all trades, master of none. The issue is... how do you define the "focused in one way" versus the "jack of all trades?"

School of thought 1: We're talking about the character's role.
These are the people who think that the character's position in the Holy Trinity is the important thing. A character who is focused into being a Damage Dealer would be one with three DPS lines, and therefore they should absolutely have higher DPS than someone who is spreading their lines out to take one each of a tank/healer/DPS line. This also means the 3xDD character should have weaknesses in not being able to survive much at all, and they will require healers/tanks to support them. Pureclasses are normally set up to be able to do every role, so they are more the jack-of-all-trades types, and therefore the suggestion to "buff pureclasses!" makes no sense since they should be lower DPS since they are not focused purely on one role.
In essence, the Subclassed build is the focused one, and the pureclass is the jack of all trades.

School of thought 2: We're talking about the character's archetype.
These are the people who favor the idea of Class identity. They see each Class as playing slightly differently - DKs tend to be tanky and mostly pressure with DoTs and poison/burning status effects, but they suffer from low sustain and no execute power; NBs are sneaky stabby assassins with high burst and great single target damage, and basically no cleave; and the like. They see a pureclass as someone who is all-in on their character's skills and has to play to their Class's strengths and weaknesses. A Subclass, however, allows players to take skills from another class to cover those weaknesses, and therefore they're making themselves more versatile. They therefore think that buffing pureclasses is obvious since the Subclass is extending its capabilities, so it should logically be sacrificing power to do so.
In essence, the pureclassed build is the focused one, and the Subclass is the jack of all trades.

This is an astute comment, and one that I hope the devs pay attention to. I think you're right that both School 1 and School 2 players will be satisfied by good passives, where "good" means both thematic and mechanically strong (passives like Pressure Points, Burning Light, and Death Knell come to mind as examples). However, I also think there are a lot of nearly unused morphs of active abilities that could fit into many more niches with the right tweaks. For instance, when was the last time you saw either morph of Rune Prison used anywhere? Rune Cage is essentially Shattering Rocks but substantially worse, and Defensive Rune doesn't seem to have a point, given that you generally want full control of a single target hard stun. Surely those skills could be tweaked to be more useful while staying faithful to the Dark Magic archetype.

colossalvoids

That's a pretty unique thing for recent times so thank you for including at least some corrections to the mess that was created by subclassing. One thing missing would be grim focus changes, preferably reverting it back to holding just one proc at a time and making the passive portion of ability to incentive firing a bow instead of holding on it indefinitely.

Desiato

I just read through all the iterations of Grim Focus over the years and as an oldschool nightblade, I'm sad that it's in this state.

It went through an arc of positive refinements followed by distortions by high level agendas, turning it into something that became too easy to use and completely OP, thus necessitating a nerf. Thanks.

I fondly remember my pre-hybridization 2017 eso 3.0 melee magblade with its degeneration empowered meteor + assassin's will + malefic wreath combo.

Malefic Wreath was like a long range petrify that required more thoughtful use or the target could be given free cc immunity. It was the removed as part of the original homogenization effort which converted Agony to Malevolent Offering.


The point I'm trying to make by posting that clip is almost all aspects of it have been dramatically changed without being op according to an ever evolving agenda, and to what end if the target keeps changing? It is an example of the impact of homogenization, hybridization, floor raising, ceiling lowering, and then ultimately a nerf to what was originally a well-designed ability.

I wish we could just roll back grim focus 5 years, but that's not going to happen.

And then we see the genesis of more of the same with the banner change. I'm supportive of the passive crux gen nerf, but why was it added in the first place -- because arc was just fine at the time and didn't need any kind of buff -- and is ZOS just setting the table for more of the same down the road by adding ult gen to it?

I guess what I'm really getting at it's all so whimsical and without any kind of cohesive long term vision. We can debate the merit of the individual changes, but maybe what's underneath the frustration are the constantly shifting goal posts.

Erickson9610

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I definitely think that modifying the passives is the best way to go about trying to balance this monster.

Nobody likes to be nerfed.

In my use case, Werewolf got a noticeable buff from being able to drop skill lines without usable passives (like Animal Companions or Earthen Heart) in favor of skill lines which do give usable buffs (like Aedric Spear or Storm Calling).

For my use case, I don't necessarily care if the Subclass Active Abilities get nerfed. Werewolf can't use them anyway. But adding a buff to people who don't subclass would widen the gap between werewolves and "normal playstyles".

I just don't want Passive Abilities to be nerfed if you choose to subclass into those skill lines. Nobody likes to be nerfed, and losing effectiveness on skill line passives would push Werewolf behind — farther behind than they currently are compared to how human form builds can perform with Subclassing.

Sordidfairytale

Max resources help Tanks and Healers, as well as DPS. Having these buffs only in "DPS" lines is an oversight.

Having Brutality and Sorcery only in DPS lines is also bad for healers. Remove damage from the formula or provide another buff in the healing lines?

Consider scribing lines for class abilities, that require the base class, but allow you to use another signature script to further modify. This way the more pure skill lines a player has potentially the more potent they can become.

Grimoire: Repentance
Requires Termplar base class to use.

Focus: Magic Damage
Repentance now restores Magicka instead of Stamina

Signature: Gladiator's Tenacity
This abilities Affix Script no longer requires casting to be effective and is active while slotted on either bar.

Affix: Brutality and Sorcery
Grants you Major Brutality and Major Sorcery, increasing Weapon and Spell Damage by 20%


Grimoire: Noxious Breath
Requires Dragonknight base class to use.

Focus: Magic Damage
Noxious Breath now costs Magicka instead of Stamina.

Signature: Immobilizing Strike
Immobilizes enemies for 3 seconds.

Affix: Interrupt
Interrupts enemies that are casting.

robpr

I'm bit torn about the Banner change, it makes the Banner never generate a Crux if you also run Inspired Scholarship (IS triggers every 3s, banner every 5) and you just made the all other subclasses not have their ult gain stack but Arc can have one extra source of ult. This once again makes Arc best base class for subclassing just for this potential change as Arcs running banner will be able to use ults more often.

Safer change was to make the trigger to queue when any channeling skill ends before goes to cooldown (so the Crux gen pauses during beaming/jabbing/whatever)

f047ys3v3n

These are much better than the original changes. The ulti changes preserve some uniqueness is passives and some strength to pure classes relative to multi-classes. Sorc keeps major resolve instead of getting yet another source of minor force. That is good as there are relatively few sources of major resolve that offer interesting gameplay and minor force is very common. The changes to banner will remove it from the must have status it currently has but will probably leave it as a viable option providing more variety to current builds. The changes to grim focus will also allow more build diversity as it is currently a must have for any multi-class dps at the passive buff is so strong. I think many will still use the line but it will not be essentially required as it currently is.

My main worry with the changes is that the huge dps explosion that happened with multi-class will be significantly paired back with these changes. That will derail a lot of prog groups and that has caused problems in the past such as the huge nerf that came back, I think in patch 35, with light attacks. That was a bloodbath for the end game community and it has never really recovered. I don't think this will be as bad as that era, but, like that era, there have been some huge and erratic changes with sub-classing. I think my suggestion would be to address this by simply adding some time to trifecta time requirements. That would keep trials groups from being derailed in their progress by the loss of 10-20% of their dps. They will have to play more mecs for sure, but their progress shouldn't be impeded. I guess I should admit here to being of the opinion that many trifecta time limits are too short anyway and essentially shoehorn all trifecta attempts into a very narrow set of possible strategies that basically boil down to a focus on prioritizing dps over every other possible consideration. Imagine the idea of a healer or tank wearing a set that actually increases resistance or heals over buffing group dps for instance lol.

For what it is worth, I have actually enjoyed creating oddball multi-class builds a lot. I didn't really expect to and was against the concept, but it has actually been fun. I have created at least 4 unique builds and have a few other spinning around in my head. Honestly, It is as many builds as I think I created in 6 or so years before the changes.

Nepenthe

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

I was looking forward to having Major Resolve from Bound Aegis, but now it's back on Hurricane. My hopes were to have Bound Aegis, gain Major Resolve, then add to my build with a monster set, etc. Having to activate Hurricane to keep the resistance up was a nuisance, especially when tanking, if you were counting on those resistances to not get 1-shot. A passive Major Resolve that will work while on either bar would have been awesome. This would have opened up many awesome build combinations.

If possible, can you please add a skill that grants Major Resolve while slotted on either bar?

Every tank has to recast a Resolve skill. If keeping your buffs up is a nuisance, is not keeping up *all* of your buffs a nuisance, since you have to cast them on the same interval? Some, even more frequently? I don't really know what you're getting at, here.

Lightning Form granting Major Resolve is an example of the class diversity / identity that people enjoy about the game. It is the *one* damaging skill in the game that also grants Major Resolve on its own, without interacting with a passive like NB's Shadow line, which in itself is unique as well. Going forward with the changes they had proposed with Lightning form would have removed this uniqueness about Storm Calling and Sorcerer. I don't think taking away that identity is worth not having to recast a skill like every tank has to do to keep their Resolve buff. If you don't like recasting it, perhaps consider NB's Shadow line, or Chudan.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

[*] Please consider the following:

• Move minor force to Mages Fury or Lightning Splash. These skills are behind from a pve dps perspective, and yes they need major adjustments still, but having "Minor Force for slotting" would do wonders for build diversity/flexibility. We already have to go to Daedric Summoning for Major Prophecy/Savagery and Dark Magic for Minor Prophecy, why not allow some named damage buffs to be sourced from the damage line; Storm Calling.
• Mages Fury and morphs would be my favourite pick as 80% of any fight the skill does nothing on a Sorc's bar. While I don't think this would be enough to bring back the skill from the dead, it would be a fantastic start with hopefuly some changes to come in the future.

I love your idea of giving Minor Force to another damage ability that needs help. If ZOS goes with a 'Minor Force on cast' approach, I think Lightning Splash makes more sense here, since, as you say, you won't be casting Mage's Fury for the majority of the fight. Perhaps Mage's Fury could gain some kind of effect that only works when the target is at a high health percentage (such as a chain lightning effect for more cleave on the class), to make up for its lacking execute damage in comparison to other executes? It would even be in line with how Sorc seems to be designed, what with the damage increases to high-health targets and all.

I definitely see what they were going for in moving Resolve off of Lightning Form, and I also see why so many people (including myself) were upset to see such a unique ability being changed so drastically after such a long history of the fantasy of the ability being unchanged. I think your proposed change here would be in-line with their attempts to change the base classes' skill lines to be more akin to the newer classes' separated skill lines per role.

madmufffin

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Since we're talking sorc design so much.. Why not move Major Prophecy/Savagery to Surge? I don't know where I'd put Major Brutality/Sorcery now that Major Resolve is back to Lightning Form, but the skill requires the player to crit, then the class spreads out the crit buffs to Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning where they don't really belong. This makes it difficult to engage with subclassing. A bunch of skill lines that aren't great at anything, succeed at nothing.

From that perspective, a Sorc has to take 3 lines which NB's Assassination can do in 1. This is a big reason why it's so popular, it's just well desgined, it's why I previously ignored Dark Magic/Daedric Summoning, and why I'll continue to do so with U47. Major/Minor Crit Chance, passives for crit chance and crit damage, along with a spammable, burst, execute, and dps ultimate.

Same logic applied to Sorc is:

• Storm Calling: Execute, DPS passives
• Daedric Summoning: Burst, dots, DPS ultimate, Major Crit
• Dark Magic: spammable, Minor Crit

And yes I know they all do something unique that Assassination maybe can't, but it's excellent food for thought as to what you're asking Sorcs to do now. Either all classes should behave this way or none of them should, at the very least move the Major/Minor crit to Storm Calling to make that role easier even if you can't also move skills around... although Crystal Frags as the outlier should leave Dark Magic in my opinion. Trying to make 3 lines competitive for damage dealing in the future will never happen, but I can see a pet vs non pet dynamic between Daedric Summoning and Storm Calling as they both fill niches that Dark Magic can't compete with.

Having Sorc's dps kit seperated across the 3 lines severely limits it's viability in PVE and is a large part of the reason it's just simply not used. Mage's Fury getting a huge buff would still make it so that only two active sorc skills are getting used in content by dps.

Destai

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

We've seen a lot of your feedback about some of the class and ability changes that are currently on the PTS for Update 47. We hear your frustration and confusion about why some of these changes are being made, and we wanted to give you some additional context.

We also understand that having to continually update builds with every patch can be tiresome and can detract from the fun and enjoyment of playing the way you want, something that is a part of ESO's DNA. In considering the community’s feedback, we will be making the following changes starting in an upcoming week of the U47 PTS, sometime after PTS week 2.

Thanks for the acknowledgement, and ultimately changing course. You're right - it is deeply frustrating and tiresome to have to continually update your builds. But worse yet, it conditions us to not be excited about changes. I think reversing course here was really good. I know I've been critical of the teams in the past for not changing course early enough, so I really do appreciate this effort here.

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

As we mentioned before the release of U46 and Subclassing, we will continue to work on tuning these abilities to achieve greater class balance. It's worth noting that the changes above are also subject to change, and we'll continue listening to your feedback before these go live. In the months ahead, we are going to continue to look at balancing and will make additional adjustments. For now, we hope these amended abilities are more in line with your expectations, and you continue to enjoy Subclassing.

What is "greater class balance"? What is the end goal of combat? Are you guys taking combat development case-by-case, and just adjusting things as they arise, or is there a greater plan that you are working towards? When is combat "done" and how far along are you? Is there a roadmap that can be communicated?

I've asked this numerous times before, and have never gotten an acknowledgement. Would be nice if that changed.

ZOS_Amy wrote: »

Thank you, again, for all the thoughtful and constructive discourse around the U47 PTS changes. Your input is valuable and these adjustments are a direct result. Please continue to let us know how your experience is on the PTS — we're listening.

I'm glad that you're all listening, I think we'd all appreciate more participation in the discourse though.

tomofhyrule

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I definitely think that modifying the passives is the best way to go about trying to balance this monster.

Nobody likes to be nerfed.

In my use case, Werewolf got a noticeable buff from being able to drop skill lines without usable passives (like Animal Companions or Earthen Heart) in favor of skill lines which do give usable buffs (like Aedric Spear or Storm Calling).

For my use case, I don't necessarily care if the Subclass Active Abilities get nerfed. Werewolf can't use them anyway. But adding a buff to people who don't subclass would widen the gap between werewolves and "normal playstyles".

I just don't want Passive Abilities to be nerfed if you choose to subclass into those skill lines. Nobody likes to be nerfed, and losing effectiveness on skill line passives would push Werewolf behind — farther behind than they currently are compared to how human form builds can perform with Subclassing.

But consider - what if... werewolf passives were buffed?

You're Subclassing for a very specific case: what passives are useful without having Class abilities slotted. But Werewolf should actually be balanced as its own class so that you didn't need to select three specific lines in order to not use any of them.

Another idea is to not nerf passives but swap them around, so a line like Herald isn't stacked with DPS-increasing passives. That means that if you play a full Arcanist you still get those passives, but people who just want to squeeze DPS out would then need to make a choice: "do I take this OP skill, or to I leave the OP skill in favor of getting the DPS-boost passives?"

I just feel like saying "a global balance adjustment is not a good idea because it will affect this one edge case!" is not as good of a solution as balancing in general and addressing the edge case.
(that reminds me of that one xkcd comic where a user didn't like that a bug was fixed since they built their workflow around said bug)

YandereGirlfriend

Desiato wrote: »

I just read through all the iterations of Grim Focus over the years and as an oldschool nightblade, I'm sad that it's in this state.

It went through an arc of positive refinements followed by distortions by high level agendas, turning it into something that became too easy to use and completely OP, thus necessitating a nerf. Thanks.

I fondly remember my pre-hybridization 2017 eso 3.0 melee magblade with its degeneration empowered meteor + assassin's will + malefic wreath combo.

Malefic Wreath was like a long range petrify that required more thoughtful use or the target could be given free cc immunity. It was the removed as part of the original homogenization effort which converted Agony to Malevolent Offering.


The point I'm trying to make by posting that clip is almost all aspects of it have been dramatically changed without being op according to an ever evolving agenda, and to what end if the target keeps changing? It is an example of the impact of homogenization, hybridization, floor raising, ceiling lowering, and then ultimately a nerf to what was originally a well-designed ability.

I wish we could just roll back grim focus 5 years, but that's not going to happen.

And then we see the genesis of more of the same with the banner change. I'm supportive of the passive crux gen nerf, but why was it added in the first place -- because arc was just fine at the time and didn't need any kind of buff -- and is ZOS just setting the table for more of the same down the road by adding ult gen to it?

I guess what I'm really getting at it's all so whimsical and without any kind of cohesive long term vision. We can debate the merit of the individual changes, but maybe what's underneath the frustration are the constantly shifting goal posts.

Indeed.

All the hand-wringing about Bowproc and Arc Banner when the only true statement is that neither of them should ever have been that monstrously OP to begin with as they were perfectly fine before their respective giga-buffs.

Erickson9610

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I definitely think that modifying the passives is the best way to go about trying to balance this monster.

Nobody likes to be nerfed.

In my use case, Werewolf got a noticeable buff from being able to drop skill lines without usable passives (like Animal Companions or Earthen Heart) in favor of skill lines which do give usable buffs (like Aedric Spear or Storm Calling).

For my use case, I don't necessarily care if the Subclass Active Abilities get nerfed. Werewolf can't use them anyway. But adding a buff to people who don't subclass would widen the gap between werewolves and "normal playstyles".

I just don't want Passive Abilities to be nerfed if you choose to subclass into those skill lines. Nobody likes to be nerfed, and losing effectiveness on skill line passives would push Werewolf behind — farther behind than they currently are compared to how human form builds can perform with Subclassing.

But consider - what if... werewolf passives were buffed?

You're Subclassing for a very specific case: what passives are useful without having Class abilities slotted. But Werewolf should actually be balanced as its own class so that you didn't need to select three specific lines in order to not use any of them.

Another idea is to not nerf passives but swap them around, so a line like Herald isn't stacked with DPS-increasing passives. That means that if you play a full Arcanist you still get those passives, but people who just want to squeeze DPS out would then need to make a choice: "do I take this OP skill, or to I leave the OP skill in favor of getting the DPS-boost passives?"

I just feel like saying "a global balance adjustment is not a good idea because it will affect this one edge case!" is not as good of a solution as balancing in general and addressing the edge case.
(that reminds me of that one xkcd comic where a user didn't like that a bug was fixed since they built their workflow around said bug)

I'd like more build diversity — not less!

Werewolves should have weapon passives so that their weapon choice matters.

Werewolves should continue to use certain Class passives so their Class skill lines matter.

Obliterating passives from working in Werewolf form would mean you wouldn't care what armor, weapons, or even Class you use. Every werewolf would be exactly the same — even more similar than they're forced to be currently since they only have 5 abilities (no Scribing skills) and only 3 fur colors (no Werewolf Transformation skill styles).


I wouldn't consider my niche use case illegitimate in the discussion of Subclassing balance, just as I believe in the people who want to play Werewolf on the same level as a "real" Class.

tomofhyrule

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I definitely think that modifying the passives is the best way to go about trying to balance this monster.

Nobody likes to be nerfed.

In my use case, Werewolf got a noticeable buff from being able to drop skill lines without usable passives (like Animal Companions or Earthen Heart) in favor of skill lines which do give usable buffs (like Aedric Spear or Storm Calling).

For my use case, I don't necessarily care if the Subclass Active Abilities get nerfed. Werewolf can't use them anyway. But adding a buff to people who don't subclass would widen the gap between werewolves and "normal playstyles".

I just don't want Passive Abilities to be nerfed if you choose to subclass into those skill lines. Nobody likes to be nerfed, and losing effectiveness on skill line passives would push Werewolf behind — farther behind than they currently are compared to how human form builds can perform with Subclassing.

But consider - what if... werewolf passives were buffed?

You're Subclassing for a very specific case: what passives are useful without having Class abilities slotted. But Werewolf should actually be balanced as its own class so that you didn't need to select three specific lines in order to not use any of them.

Another idea is to not nerf passives but swap them around, so a line like Herald isn't stacked with DPS-increasing passives. That means that if you play a full Arcanist you still get those passives, but people who just want to squeeze DPS out would then need to make a choice: "do I take this OP skill, or to I leave the OP skill in favor of getting the DPS-boost passives?"

I just feel like saying "a global balance adjustment is not a good idea because it will affect this one edge case!" is not as good of a solution as balancing in general and addressing the edge case.
(that reminds me of that one xkcd comic where a user didn't like that a bug was fixed since they built their workflow around said bug)

I'd like more build diversity — not less!

Werewolves should have weapon passives so that their weapon choice matters.

Werewolves should continue to use certain Class passives so their Class skill lines matter.

Obliterating passives from working in Werewolf form would mean you wouldn't care what armor, weapons, or even Class you use. Every werewolf would be exactly the same — even more similar than they're forced to be currently since they only have 5 abilities (no Scribing skills) and only 3 fur colors (no Werewolf Transformation skill styles).


I wouldn't consider my niche use case illegitimate in the discussion of Subclassing balance, just as I believe in the people who want to play Werewolf on the same level as a "real" Class.

You don't have to tell me about the problems of werewolf. I very much want a Grimoire for werewolves and definitely more fur colors (and forms! I'm tired of my werebear not being who he's supposed to be). And werewolf absolutely should have passives and skills that elevate it to being on the level of a standard Class. But I do also think that werewolves shouldn't really use passives from lines they don't use as well.

Still, this does raise the question: if applying Class/weapon passives in were-form were possible, would that lead to diversity in builds, or would it lead to every single werewolf saying "hey, these are the best options to run and nothing else comes close to that." You know, kinda like what we're already seeing with Subclassing in general.

"Build diversity" doesn't just mean having lots of options. It means having lots of acceptable options. Sure, I could choose between three memetically useless builds and one that's OP... but would anyone really say that I have options there if every option but one were significantly underpowered?

Here's an example: my werebearwolf is a Warden who uses a greataxe - he's all-in on the barbarian look. That means that exactly one of his passives works when transformed: he can block more (ok fine, he can also give himself Toughness when he howls, but only if he's already hurt). But he also uses the transformation unmorphed since there is no brown werebear option, but the grey wolf is... closest? I guess?
Now would you celebrate this build as "wow such build diversity! I would like to play that!" Or is it more like "wow, are you stupid for gimping yourself that much?"