PvE - Lethal Attack Indicators

disky

katanagirl1 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

This reminds me of a discussion a while back about enemies that could be interrupted. Those enemies have the red lines coming off them to let you know that if you bash them, it will interrupt their channeled attack. There are also enemies with yellow lines, like when Tho’at is ready to do a big attack in IA. I see this when Bastian is tanking for me. I assume that is a really strong attack that I, as a squishy arcanist, would probably not survive. As a tank build he can survive it.

Yeah, I think I've seen this too, but it doesn't seem to happen for AOEs in the same fight...though it might just be that none of the AOEs in the fight are the kind I'm talking about. If that is what's happening then I hope we see more of it.

Aoes are something that you almost never want to stand in for more than one or two seconds, unless you have a team with dedicated healers and they indicate you should do so. That’s why people say “don’t stand in stupid”. Get out of it asap and make sure the aoe is a color that is easy to see for you.

I'm aware that AOEs = bad, but there's a difference across every kind of AOE which, if you're ignorant about what kind of AOE it is, can mean life or death. Sometimes it's acceptable to remain inside the area, sometimes it's absolutely not. That's why I think it's useful to know when you must leave immediately.

DenverRalphy

disky wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Even if it could be implemented, I don't think that it should be iimplemented.

Learning through experience is a key component in any game worth it's weight. It's the thrill of the unknown until it's known that makes it exciting and engaging. I really don't like games that would spoil its own surprises. I find them less fun.

Without looking it up, many players just die repeatedly to lethal attacks which can be far stronger than an attack with an identical indicator and I don't personally think that is fun.

IMHO, it's up to the player to realize that if doing the same thing over and over again isn't getting them anywhere, then they need to take a step back and reassess their strategy. Once they find one that works, then remember it for the next time they find themselves in the same position.

There's a reason the term "Don't stand in stupid" has become cliche in MMO's. Even tanks worth their weight in salt know that they can't just stand there doing nothing when they know "something" is coming. Even if they don't know what it is exactly .

[caveat for moderators] I did not use the term "stupid" to represent anybody in the thread. I used it only in it's contextual relationship with a well known phrase that the average gamer likely knows.

katanagirl1

disky wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

This reminds me of a discussion a while back about enemies that could be interrupted. Those enemies have the red lines coming off them to let you know that if you bash them, it will interrupt their channeled attack. There are also enemies with yellow lines, like when Tho’at is ready to do a big attack in IA. I see this when Bastian is tanking for me. I assume that is a really strong attack that I, as a squishy arcanist, would probably not survive. As a tank build he can survive it.

Yeah, I think I've seen this too, but it doesn't seem to happen for AOEs in the same fight...though it might just be that none of the AOEs in the fight are the kind I'm talking about. If that is what's happening then I hope we see more of it.

Aoes are something that you almost never want to stand in for more than one or two seconds, unless you have a team with dedicated healers and they indicate you should do so. That’s why people say “don’t stand in stupid”. Get out of it asap and make sure the aoe is a color that is easy to see for you.

I'm aware that AOEs = bad, but there's a difference across every kind of AOE which, if you're ignorant about what kind of AOE it is, can mean life or death. Sometimes it's acceptable to remain inside the area, sometimes it's absolutely not. That's why I think it's useful to know when you must leave immediately.

I disagree as someone who has done some vet hard mode trials. There are times when you would want to stay stacked and let the healers heal you through something, but that is usually because not standing together in the same spot is worse. You should never stand in aoes if you don’t have a team you know and do not know the mechanics and are not instructed to do so. Every situation is different. Aoes have damage ticks that add damage every tick and you cannot heal yourself enough to stay there, especially if you are properly geared as dps with full damage. Experience or a trial lead as a teacher are the only way to learn.

disky

DenverRalphy wrote: »

disky wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Even if it could be implemented, I don't think that it should be iimplemented.

Learning through experience is a key component in any game worth it's weight. It's the thrill of the unknown until it's known that makes it exciting and engaging. I really don't like games that would spoil its own surprises. I find them less fun.

Without looking it up, many players just die repeatedly to lethal attacks which can be far stronger than an attack with an identical indicator and I don't personally think that is fun.

IMHO, it's up to the player to realize that if doing the same thing over and over again isn't getting them anywhere, then they need to take a step back and reassess their strategy. Once they find one that works, then remember it for the next time they find themselves in the same position.

There's a reason the term "Don't stand in stupid" has become cliche in MMO's. Even tanks worth their weight in salt know that they can't just stand there doing nothing when they know "something" is coming. Even if they don't know what it is exactly .

[caveat for moderators] I did not use the term "stupid" to represent anybody in the thread. I used it only in it's contextual relationship with a well known phrase that the average gamer likely knows.

I agree that standing in one place and never moving is not a good idea and that learning how to fight is good, that's not the argument I'm making and I think you know that. The point is that there are attacks which kill instantly or very quickly and those that are far less lethal, and making the distinction is worthwhile. I'm not asking for an easy mode in any way, just a way to know when an enemy is using a "normal" attack versus an "ultimate" attack without dying repeatedly or looking it up.

I also would like to hear your thoughts on the second paragraph in my reply which you didn't seem to address.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I disagree as someone who has done some vet hard mode trials. There are times when you would want to stay stacked and let the healers heal you through something, but that is usually because not standing together in the same spot is worse. You should never stand in aoes if you don’t have a team you know and do not know the mechanics and are not instructed to do so. Every situation is different. Aoes have damage ticks that add damage every tick and you cannot heal yourself enough to stay there, especially if you are properly geared as dps with full damage. Experience or a trial lead as a teacher are the only way to learn.

See above.

code65536

disky wrote: »

- I don't want to die multiple times to something I have no idea how to mitigate without looking it up
- I don't want to do this in a group setting, which will always mean that before I experience group content, I will definitely look it up so as not to let anyone down.

Then stay in the overworld.

Maybe that was a bit too snarky, but the whole point of veteran content is to challenge players. And the point of a challenge is that you're not supposed to walk in and beat it the first time you see it. (Okay, for highly advanced players, this can happen, but that's the exception and is not what is intended.)

The very reason veteran content exists is to challenge people with things that they can chew on, that they can progress through via repeated attempts, as they practice and learn it. If that sounds unpleasant to you, then why are you doing such content in the first place?

disky

code65536 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

- I don't want to die multiple times to something I have no idea how to mitigate without looking it up
- I don't want to do this in a group setting, which will always mean that before I experience group content, I will definitely look it up so as not to let anyone down.

Then stay in the overworld.

Maybe that was a bit too snarky, but the whole point of veteran content is to challenge players. And the point of a challenge is that you're not supposed to walk in and beat it the first time you see it. (Okay, for highly advanced players, this can happen, but that's the exception and is not what is intended.)

The very reason veteran content exists is to challenge people with things that they can chew on, that they can progress through via repeated attempts, as they practice and learn it. If that sounds unpleasant to you, then why are you doing such content in the first place?

Edit: WOW, it's Mr. Code, the Mod Man himself! Congrats on your very good and popular mod. So I gotta ask...why are you saying this to me, then?

I'll say it again: Code's Combat Alerts. On ESOUI, this is the #3 raid mod in total downloads.

In this video, the guy actually says "Plain and simple, this one provides additional notifications and alerts for many PvE mechanics. Are you unsure of which attacks to dodge or block? Are you struggling with complex mechanics in dungeons? Code's Combat Alerts will help a ton! There aren't alerts for everything in the game, but you're going to die far less often if you have this installed. Most attacks in ESO have visual telegraphs, but not all of them. Code's is there to pick up the slack and help keep you alive. Some guilds even consider this a required add-on for in-game content."
https://youtu.be/tpVgmKxut4U?feature=shared&t=223


And CrutchAlerts, the #10 raid mod in total downloads, which does stuff like this:



The tagline for this mod in the ESOUI profile is "This addon is a crutch. Use the crutch proudly." No joke.


Please guys, let's not act as if what I'm asking for is some kind of taboo. It's very common to use mods which hold your hand far more, and they're sometimes even required by your guild at the highest levels of raid play.

code65536

disky wrote: »

So I gotta ask...why are you saying this to me, then?

Because there are things that are not well-telegraphed in this game. Timings, in particular, but also some mechanics are visually obscured.

But that doesn't change the fact that I think figuring things out is an important part of the game. Obviously, in my position, I have to experience things without addons at first, and I do encourage other people to experience things without addons at first too, and use them only after they've experienced the fight, to help with more advanced gameplay.

I am also always wary of the possibility that I might go too far. I try to walk a balance with helping with things that are frustrating (an egregious example is keeping track of Felms and Llothis enrage timers, which people on console do with physical stopwatches) while not being too hand-holdy. And my decisions with respect to this balance can sometimes be controversial, which is why there are addons out there that seek to "do a better job" of covering things that I don't cover.

And since you posted multiple images of ground markers, I do want to single that out as one thing that I am vehemently against. None of my addons have ground markers, and I personally refuse to use addons that add ground markers (I have never used Crutch Alerts or any of QCell's addons, for example).

If you are a PC user, have you ever wondered why those 3D pins from Harvest Map that you see in the overworld (if you don't have that feature turned off; I've never liked that feature, but that's beside the point) will never appear in a dungeon or trial? That's because those pins are drawn using the game's 3D APIs, and many years ago when those APIs were added to the game, ZOS disabled them in dungeons and trials, because they wanted to "prevent addons from trivializing some dungeon mechanics by drawing markers on the ground in 3D space". Those are their words verbatim, and I happen to agree.

But if it's not possible to draw ground markers with the 3D APIs, then how are these addons doing it? Well, the author of OSI (OdysSupportIcons) discovered that there was a loophole, because a function to calculate where something should appear in the 3D space was not restricted. So it was possible to draw things in the 2D space and then position and resize them in a way to convincingly mimic drawing in the 3D space. It's basically a very clever hack. OSI was intended to just draw tank and healer icons over support players, but then QCell realized that the same thing can be used to draw icons on the ground or extra mechanical indicators over players, and soon many other addons started doing similar things. I've never jumped on this marker bandwagon despite people asking me to, because doing so would be circumventing a restriction that I happen to agree with.

If ZOS ever changes their philosophy and policy on ground markers and removes the restrictions from the 3D API, then I might reconsider their use in my addons. But as long as they think it's going too far, then I'm not going to cross that line myself.

robpr

I'll add my 2 septims to this, and it will further discourage to tank in non-vet (and sometimes vet too) content, as everybody will know that they have to roll/block whatever. Unless we add the "hold by tank" safeguards from RG and DSR to all bosses/big mobs (heavy attack is likely to kill a non-tank, but are dodgeable, if you do so the mob enrages).
Normal content should be a training for the veteran and learning the scope of the attacks is a part of this training. Would this suggestion be handy? Sure, but would not change the fundamental mechanics of content.

disky

code65536 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

So I gotta ask...why are you saying this to me, then?

Because there are things that are not well-telegraphed in this game. Timings, in particular, but also some mechanics are visually obscured.

But that doesn't change the fact that I think figuring things out is an important part of the game. Obviously, in my position, I have to experience things without addons at first, and I do encourage other people to experience things without addons at first too, and use them only after they've experienced the fight, to help with more advanced gameplay.

I am also always wary of the possibility that I might go too far. I try to walk a balance with helping with things that are frustrating (an egregious example is keeping track of Felms and Llothis timers, which people on console do with physical stopwatches) while not being too hand-holdy. And my decisions with respect to this balance can sometimes be controversial, which is why there are addons out there that seek to "do a better job" of covering things that I don't cover.

And since you posted multiple images of ground markers, I do want to single that out as one thing that I am vehemently against. None of my addons have ground markers, and I personally refuse to use addons that add ground markers (I have never used Crutch Alerts or any of QCell's addons, for example).

If you are a PC user, have you ever wondered why those 3D pins from Harvest Map that you see in the overworld (if you don't have that feature turned off; I've never liked that feature, but that's beside the point) will never appear in a dungeon or trial? That's because those pins are drawn using the game's 3D APIs, and many years ago when those APIs were added to the game, ZOS disabled them in dungeons and trials, because they wanted to "prevent addons from trivializing some dungeon mechanics by drawing markers on the ground in 3D space". Those are their words verbatim, and I happen to agree.

But if it's not possible to draw ground markers with the 3D APIs, then how are these addons doing it? Well, the author of OSI (OdysSupportIcons) discovered that there was a loophole, because a function to calculate where something should appear in the 3D space was not restricted. So it was possible to draw things in the 2D space and then position and resize them in a way to convincingly mimic drawing in the 3D space. It's basically a very clever hack. OSI was intended to just draw tank and healer icons over support players, but then QCell realized that the same thing can be used to draw icons on the ground or extra mechanical indicators over players, and soon many other addons started doing similar things. I've never jumped on this marker bandwagon despite people asking me to, because doing so would be circumventing a restriction that I happen to agree with.

If ZOS ever changes their philosophy and policy on ground markers and removes the restrictions from the 3D API, then I might reconsider their use in my addons. But as long as they think it's going too far, then I'm not going to cross that line myself.

First of all, I think it's good that you're at least considering what should and shouldn't exist in your mod rather than trying to simply provide as much information as possible.

You might find this ironic (I don't, obviously), but I don't use Harvest Map. I don't want my game to be cluttered with UI elements and I don't want to receive too much information which tells me everything I need to do and everywhere I need to go. I use mods like PinKiller and TrueExploration to remove information that ZOS provides, in fact. I don't use a minimap, and I will never use either of the mods I discussed. I'm not interested in my game becoming an interface, I want to experience it in the most immersive way I possibly can.

However, I've played this game for a long time, and in that time, I've experienced scenarios which end in death, which I can't explain, which occur primarily because of the fact that an AOE that can one-shot me is identical to an AOE that I can spend all day in without any trouble. That is confusing and frustrating and unnecessary, and it results in multiple deaths and/or just looking up the fight to to make sure I don't die again. I am not interested in resorting to adding a garish UI mod to tell me what will and will not kill me, so I'm asking for ZOS to give me the ability to understand this without needing to do so.

Now, I said that I appreciate your discretion in crafting your mod, but the fact is that you're still holding the player's hand in many ways whether it contains this one thing I'm asking for or not. You just drew the line on this particular element out of your own sense of propriety, which I feel is extremely subjective. To say nothing of the other mods which do the thing your mod doesn't. And I'm sorry but the fact that I'm being talked down to by someone who develops one of the hand-holdiest mods in the game is funny to me.

code65536

disky wrote: »

However, I've played this game for a long time, and in that time, I've experienced scenarios which end in death, which I can't explain, which occur primarily because of the fact that an AOE that can one-shot me is identical to an AOE that I can spend all day in without any trouble. That is confusing and frustrating and unnecessary, and it results in multiple deaths and/or just looking up the fight to to make sure I don't die again. I am not interested in resorting to adding a garish UI mod to tell me what will and will not kill me, so I'm asking for ZOS to give me the ability to understand this without needing to do so.

I agree that's a problem, but it's a problem of poor design consistency, and the kinds of things that you are proposing or the kinds of things that an addon can do would just be bandages for this problem.

So, you probably know about the fire behemoths in Rockgrove. When they die, they explode. It's a well-telegraphed AoE that gives you ample time to react. Years ago, I was watching a stream of some streamers running the trial on vet with devs, and it was the first time that Gilliamtherogue was experiencing the trial (he's in combat design, so he had no part in the trial's design). And he discovered that the fire behemoth's death AoE was not actually that dangerous and was not a 1-shot. And he critiqued Finn (the dungeon/trial lead) for this on stream because a well-telegraphed AoE that gives you that much time to react should be lethal, in his opinion. It was giving all the cues to the player that this was gonna hurt, but it didn't. And he equally was critical of things that weren't that obvious to see and didn't give you much time to react to that were just 1-shots. And I still remember this exchange between them all these years later, because it struck a nerve and it's something that's always been a problem. Why are some AoEs dodgeable and some not? Why are some AoEs blockable and some not? Why are some things that look and sound scary hitting like wet noodles while some things that are far more subtle that are far more dangerous? There has always been a lot of design inconsistency, but I don't think that the solution is "let's make more complicated indicators", but rather that these kinds of inconsistencies shouldn't have been baked into the design in the first place.

disky wrote: »

And I'm sorry but the fact that I'm being talked down to by someone who develops one of the hand-holdiest mods in the game is funny to me.

Because, if we trace our conversation back, I said that people should learn fights by experiencing them. And yes, I realize that's ironic coming from me, but I genuinely believe that. And your response to that was, "I don't want to".

And generally speaking, I try to avoid telling people what to do (though I have trespassed on that a few times). Here's a heavy-attack timer (because ZOS is inconsistent with how long the enemy holds their sword in the air grunting before finally doing the downswing), but it's up to you if you want to block or dodge it (well, for tanks at least... DDs get a "dodge" and a ding sound because DDs aren't supposed to be targeted by these things, but tanks get no sounds and no text telling them what to do with that information). Or here's an alert for an effect that you just received, because that subtle blue sparkle on you is totally noticeable in the middle of combat when you're stacked with other players, but it's up to you to decide what that means and what you should do with it. Yes, there are cases where I will tell you what to do with the information, but those are generally rare.

In any case, I do believe that people should learn dungeons and trials by experiencing them. Addons should not be a substitute for that.

disky

code65536 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

However, I've played this game for a long time, and in that time, I've experienced scenarios which end in death, which I can't explain, which occur primarily because of the fact that an AOE that can one-shot me is identical to an AOE that I can spend all day in without any trouble. That is confusing and frustrating and unnecessary, and it results in multiple deaths and/or just looking up the fight to to make sure I don't die again. I am not interested in resorting to adding a garish UI mod to tell me what will and will not kill me, so I'm asking for ZOS to give me the ability to understand this without needing to do so.

I agree that's a problem, but it's a problem of poor design consistency, and the kinds of things that you are proposing or the kinds of things that an addon can would just be bandages for this problem.

So, you probably know about the fire behemoths in Rockgrove. When they die, they explode. It's a well-telegraphed AoE that gives you ample time to react. Years ago, I was watching a stream of some streamers running the trial on vet with devs, and it was the first time that Gilliamtherogue was experiencing the trial (he's in combat design, so he had no part in the trial's design). And he discovered that the fire behemoth's death AoE was not actually that dangerous and was not a 1-shot. And he critiqued Finn (the dungeon/trial lead) for this on stream because a well-telegraphed AoE that gives you that much time to react should be lethal, in his opinion. It was giving all the cues to the player that this was gonna hurt, but it didn't. And he equally was critical of things that weren't that obvious to see and didn't give you much time to react to that were just 1-shots. And I still remember this exchange between them all these years later, because it struck a nerve and it's something that's always been a problem. Why are some AoEs dodgeable and some not? Why are some AoEs blockable and some not? Why are some things that look and sound scary hitting like wet noodles while some things that are far more subtle that are far more dangerous? There has always been a lot of design inconsistency, but I don't think that the solution is "let's make more complicated indicators", but rather that these kinds of inconsistencies shouldn't have been baked into the design in the first place.

We rely on the UI that we have available to us rather than what an attack looks like because there truly is no way to differentiate how effective one is from another. You're right, it's just how the game was designed, but that's not going to change. I would love to turn off combat indicators and I even tried it for a little while, but the fact is that we need them to have a better idea of how not to die, especially in an MMO in which grouping (and not letting other players down) is a factor. The argument that I should just keep dying until some arbitrary attack animation or particle effect or audio cue, which may as well come from any other attack in the game, clicks for me, is kind of silly. We both know that's not how combat works, and frankly it's not worth the frustration. I don't think it's a big ask to have a way to know when there is no or almost no chance to survive an attack that is functionally identical to any other attack.

I like a challenge, I do. I'm a common contributor to the Overland Content Feedback thread in which I've campaigned for an optional challenge increase in that part of the game. I just think that a fight can be challenging and fun without being unnecessarily vague in what will and will not kill you.

code65536 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

And I'm sorry but the fact that I'm being talked down to by someone who develops one of the hand-holdiest mods in the game is funny to me.

Because, if we trace our conversation back, I said that people should learn fights by experiencing them. And yes, I realize that's ironic coming from me, but I genuinely believe that. And your response to that was, "I don't want to".

And generally speaking, I try to avoid telling people what to do (though I have trespassed on that a few times). Here's a heavy-attack timer (because ZOS is inconsistent with how long the enemy holds their sword in the air grunting before finally doing the downswing), but it's up to you if you want to block or dodge it (well, for tanks at least... DDs get a "dodge" and a ding sound because DDs aren't supposed to be targeted by these things, but tanks get no sounds and no text telling them what to do with that information). Or here's an alert for an effect that you just received, because that subtle blue sparkle on you is totally noticeable in the middle of combat when you're stacked with other players, but it's up to you to decide what that means and what you should do with it. Yes, there are cases where I will tell you what to do with the information, but those are generally rare.

In any case, I do believe that people should learn dungeons and trials by experiencing them. Addons are not intended as a substitute for that.

It doesn't matter what you want people to do, your mod and others exist, and they do something high-level PvE players rely upon so much that guilds require them. It's not as if the average player is going to say "Well, I have this mod that guides me through this trial, but I really should turn that off and play it the way god intended". The vast majority of players who use a mod like yours will use it as much as they can. You don't see me talking down to any of them for voluntarily downloading and running it, though.

It was never "I don't want to" learn the fight. Learning the fight can also encompass a notification of a lethal attack. This is about being able to understand what is lethal and what isn't, in a game where something that looks like Knights of the Round could be just as effective as some guy firing an arrow at you, and vice versa.

BagOfBadgers

OP. Two things to consider.

1st. We have Soul Gems for a reason!

2nd. There is a thing called a "Death Recap" and that recaps what killed you!

If you are saying ZOS is rubbish at training and instructing players in combat, then I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

Addons. Well tonight I will be doing a Discord guild run of 3-4 vet trials, for fun (possibly Hm's, depends on how the group feels) and yes I will have addons running, BUT, that does not mean the group would fail if we/I did not have them as we have a “Raid Lead” that will call out mechs, damage and we know the trials well. Addons are a thing and I see them as learning tool. As an aside, I and the reprobates that I run with cleared vLC on our 3rd try, blind after about 5 and a bit hours'ish. We didn't run addons as that's how we like learning trials. Are we mega elites, nah, just spent a lot of time in the game so have experience of our builds, recognising mechs plus many, many wipes and deaths.

You don't seem to want to run many addons, cool you do you and all that but you are wanting ZOS to add functionality that will hold your hand (a term you have used) and say what will/will not kill you, yes? I'm all for people getting more out the game. I'm just glad the are the likes of Code and others have given their time and skill to help players have to option of having functionality that ZOS, for what ever reason, has not put in the base game. Who know someone might make an addon that fills your requirement.

PS. For years I didn't run combat addons and in that time I cleared all the Crag Vet Hms as a tank. Been playing for coming up to 7 years mostly as a DPS these day. This isn't meant to seem like a toxic brag just what comes of practice, learning from mistakes and listening to others.

Of to play ESO. TTFN

Soarora

I’ve played with people who don’t use combat addons and it doesn’t take them much longer to learn the content and stop dying. Someone in my tri group who I’ve done every dungeon trifecta with has not used combat addons the whole time. Yes, codes combat alerts helps with some deaths that could’ve not happened, but it wasn’t a severe disadvantage to not have it and I feel its more about projectiles and heavy attacks than AoEs anyways. I play new dungeons on PTS (previously as a DPS, now as tank) and even though I use codes (on live, of course it doesn't work with new dungeons), I don’t run into problems not having it on PTS. Only thing I had trouble with was dying to Tho’at’s heavy attack repeatedly but that’s because my block button had different binding on PTS and so whenever I tried to block I wasn’t actually blocking.

I just tend to overestimate how much something will hurt and it works fine (ex. holding block almost all the time as a tank). Its okay to die sometimes, we all still die. Like the time I tried to stack the SCP first boss trolls on normal and promptly died because I thought it wouldn’t be so bad on normal.

disky

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

OP. Two things to consider.

1st. We have Soul Gems for a reason!

2nd. There is a thing called a "Death Recap" and that recaps what killed you!

If you are saying ZOS is rubbish at training and instructing players in combat, then I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

Addons. Well tonight I will be doing a Discord guild run of 3-4 vet trials, for fun (possibly Hm's, depends on how the group feels) and yes I will have addons running, BUT, that does not mean the group would fail if we/I did not have them as we have a “Raid Lead” that will call out mechs, damage and we know the trials well. Addons are a thing and I see them as learning tool. As an aside, I and the reprobates that I run with cleared vLC on our 3rd try, blind after about 5 and a bit hours'ish. We didn't run addons as that's how we like learning trials. Are we mega elites, nah, just spent a lot of time in the game so have experience of our builds, recognising mechs plus many, many wipes and deaths.

You don't seem to want to run many addons, cool you do you and all that but you are wanting ZOS to add functionality that will hold your hand (a term you have used) and say what will/will not kill you, yes? I'm all for people getting more out the game. I'm just glad the are the likes of Code and others have given their time and skill to help players have to option of having functionality that ZOS, for what ever reason, has not put in the base game. Who know someone might make an addon that fills your requirement.

PS. For years I didn't run combat addons and in that time I cleared all the Crag Vet Hms as a tank. Been playing for coming up to 7 years mostly as a DPS these day. This isn't meant to seem like a toxic brag just what comes of practice, learning from mistakes and listening to others.

Of to play ESO. TTFN

Providing basic information, after everything I've said, is an attempt to condescend. It's not helpful and it doesn't contribute to the conversation. I am aware of the basic mechanics and the information that the game itself provides, and I am able to utilize it effectively.

I'm happy for you. Do what you like. I do find it interesting that someone who does use addons like the ones you're describing has decided to criticize something that I feel could help to alleviate an issue with the way the game communicates lethality, however. And that so many people seem to want to do the same.

disky

Soarora wrote: »

I’ve played with people who don’t use combat addons and it doesn’t take them much longer to learn the content and stop dying. Someone in my tri group who I’ve done every dungeon trifecta with has not used combat addons the whole time. Yes, codes combat alerts helps with some deaths that could’ve not happened, but it wasn’t a severe disadvantage to not have it and I feel its more about projectiles and heavy attacks than AoEs anyways. I play new dungeons on PTS (previously as a DPS, now as tank) and even though I use codes (on live, of course it doesn't work with new dungeons), I don’t run into problems not having it on PTS. Only thing I had trouble with was dying to Tho’at’s heavy attack repeatedly but that’s because my block button had different binding on PTS and so whenever I tried to block I wasn’t actually blocking.

I just tend to overestimate how much something will hurt and it works fine (ex. holding block almost all the time as a tank). Its okay to die sometimes, we all still die. Like the time I tried to stack the SCP first boss trolls on normal and promptly died because I thought it wouldn’t be so bad on normal.

Can you confirm that those people never once looked at a wiki to better understand what will kill them outright, or do extremely high damage? Also, does it matter? I'm not here to criticize the addons I talked about, I'm using them as a way to say that hand-holding is not uncommon in the highest levels of the PvE game, and it's quite ironic to me that so many people are opposed to the idea I presented when they actively use mods like this. It just feels like cognitive dissonance.

Amottica

I have always thought it was best to get cues from the game itself and rely on queues from the game UI or add-ons as a secondary tool when it is not apparent or challenging to tell what will happen via actions in the game, much like what Coe is speaking to.

If I don't notice what is happening in the game, I will probably miss what an add-on tells me to do. I have seen players miss telegraphs of major attacks the game provides and die to them. This demonstrates the importance of paying attention to what happens in the game.

Oh, and I always suggest anyone wanting to try trials find a good casual raiding guild. These guilds should have raid leaders who help players learn what is happening and what to do. Granted, some guilds will be better for this than others, but there are experienced raiders who raid with other groups to help them improve and clear raids.

disky

Amottica wrote: »

I have always thought it was best to get cues from the game itself and rely on queues from the game UI or add-ons as a secondary tool when it is not apparent or challenging to tell what will happen via actions in the game, much like what Coe is speaking to.

If I don't notice what is happening in the game, I will probably miss what an add-on tells me to do. I have seen players miss telegraphs of major attacks the game provides and die to them. This demonstrates the importance of paying attention to what happens in the game.

Oh, and I always suggest anyone wanting to try trials find a good casual raiding guild. These guilds should have raid leaders who help players learn what is happening and what to do. Granted, some guilds will be better for this than others, but there are experienced raiders who raid with other groups to help them improve and clear raids.

If the game had a more immersive way of telling the player what is and isn't a devastating attack, I would agree 100%. The problem is that there is functionally no way to know, without dying or looking it up, which attacks are devastating and which aren't. It's just not how the game has been built, and Code said the exact same thing a few posts back. I've even tried to turn off combat indicators but let me tell you, if you do that, you will probably have a very difficult time surviving in challenging content. The game has been built with these indicators in mind, and it wants players to rely on them. The fact that only a single kind of indicator exists for "normal" and "ultimate" attacks can create an unnecessarily fatal situation and adding a way for players to understand what must be avoided is, in my opinion, far from babying the player.

BagOfBadgers

[/quote]
Providing basic information, after everything I've said, is an attempt to condescend. It's not helpful and it doesn't contribute to the conversation. I am aware of the basic mechanics and the information that the game itself provides, and I am able to utilize it effectively. [/quote].
I can't change how you feel. Many on here learned by deaths/wipes and by using recaps to see what killed them. I can't give you my game knowledge, I just had to learn it. Even now I make use of the basics, know your build and what it can do/take, know the fight from learning it, don't stand in stupid until you know that you can and most important, be open to failing.

[/quote]I'm happy for you. Do what you like. I do find it interesting that someone who does use addons like the ones you're describing has decided to criticize something that I feel could help to alleviate an issue with the way the game communicates lethality, however. And that so many people seem to want to do the same.[/quote] You see it as I criticized you. I was asking the question, if you don't want to answer, that's up to you.

TBH you have been hostile to most on here. There is a massive wealth of information with this forum and outside. If you don't want to use it, that's up to you.

disky

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

TBH you have been hostile to most on here. There is a massive wealth of information with this forum and outside. If you don't want to use it, that's up to you.

No no, I'm aware of the information available to me and I've said as much many times. The point is that I don't think it should be necessary to check a wiki or the forums to understand why I'm dying. All it would take to prevent it in many scenarios is a different indicator which informs the player that a powerful attack is coming, and given how common other combat indicators are in the endgame PvE space, I don't understand why there's so much opposition to the idea, notably from endgame PvE players.

Ph1p

Whether an attack is lethal is highly relative and depends on ones build, buffs, blocking status, the difficulty level, and so forth. So what exactly are you looking for - a special indicator for guaranteed one-shots regardless of the above or one that indicates that the next attack will specifically kill your character?

If it's the first, I can't think of enough examples to make this a meaningful indicator that people will encounter frequently enough to recognize and understand. Typically, guaranteed one-shots are caused by failing a mechanic and not a single attack - like not closing Z'Maja's portals in time or getting hit by two consecutive chain lightnings from the Chimera in Sanity's Edge HM. Besides that, any heavy attacks are already clearly telegraphed, but they typically aren't guaranteed deaths for every role.

If it's the second, then such a variable lethality indicator would only create more confusion, because it would be visible in one instance, but not another. When I tank veteran Olms, should it appear on every swipe or only if I don't block, for example? It would also make it more difficult for your buddies to help you, because they can't be sure what attack or ability it was. In my opinion, having consistent telegraphs every time (or not) would be better game design.

disky

Ph1p wrote: »

Whether an attack is lethal is highly relative and depends on ones build, buffs, blocking status, the difficulty level, and so forth. So what exactly are you looking for - a special indicator for guaranteed one-shots regardless of the above or one that indicates that the next attack will specifically kill your character?

If it's the first, I can't think of enough examples to make this a meaningful indicator that people will encounter frequently enough to recognize and understand. Typically, guaranteed one-shots are caused by failing a mechanic and not a single attack - like not closing Z'Maja's portals in time or getting hit by two consecutive chain lightnings from the Chimera in Sanity's Edge HM. Besides that, any heavy attacks are already clearly telegraphed, but they typically aren't guaranteed deaths for every role.

If it's the second, then such a variable lethality indicator would only create more confusion, because it would be visible in one instance, but not another. When I tank veteran Olms, should it appear on every swipe or only if I don't block, for example? It would also make it more difficult for your buddies to help you, because they can't be sure what attack or ability it was. In my opinion, having consistent telegraphs every time (or not) would be better game design.

This was discussed a little earlier in the thread - some bosses have certain one-shot mechanics as you say, but they also have attacks which do a dramatically higher amount of damage than most other attacks, and those attacks can either kill or nearly kill a lot of players. The idea is to simply flag these attacks and display a different indicator for them.

Soarora

disky wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I’ve played with people who don’t use combat addons and it doesn’t take them much longer to learn the content and stop dying. Someone in my tri group who I’ve done every dungeon trifecta with has not used combat addons the whole time. Yes, codes combat alerts helps with some deaths that could’ve not happened, but it wasn’t a severe disadvantage to not have it and I feel its more about projectiles and heavy attacks than AoEs anyways. I play new dungeons on PTS (previously as a DPS, now as tank) and even though I use codes (on live, of course it doesn't work with new dungeons), I don’t run into problems not having it on PTS. Only thing I had trouble with was dying to Tho’at’s heavy attack repeatedly but that’s because my block button had different binding on PTS and so whenever I tried to block I wasn’t actually blocking.

I just tend to overestimate how much something will hurt and it works fine (ex. holding block almost all the time as a tank). Its okay to die sometimes, we all still die. Like the time I tried to stack the SCP first boss trolls on normal and promptly died because I thought it wouldn’t be so bad on normal.

Can you confirm that those people never once looked at a wiki to better understand what will kill them outright, or do extremely high damage? Also, does it matter? I'm not here to criticize the addons I talked about, I'm using them as a way to say that hand-holding is not uncommon in the highest levels of the PvE game, and it's quite ironic to me that so many people are opposed to the idea I presented when they actively use mods like this. It just feels like cognitive dissonance.

Yes, I can confirm they don't look at wikis or watch videos and I've done first runs with them before (and again, I run on PTS where no one has combat addons anyways because its not like Code is a wizard haha). I don't see a problem with making 1-shot AoEs look different like how heavy attacks have a unique animation, but I'm also still waiting for examples of attacks you've had problems with because some of them (like the Fang Lair shalks that have been mentioned a few times on this thread) do actually have animations that tell you what to do, meaning the blame is actually on a lack of tutorial and not the mechanic itself.

Soarora

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

I can't change how you feel. Many on here learned by deaths/wipes and by using recaps to see what killed them. I can't give you my game knowledge, I just had to learn it. Even now I make use of the basics, know your build and what it can do/take, know the fight from learning it, don't stand in stupid until you know that you can and most important, be open to failing.

This is also a great point; death recaps will sometimes actually tell you what went wrong at the bottom by giving you a tip. You're supposed to die and find out. But again, you can be overly cautious and be fine. For example, Bedlam Veil first boss. Did it on the PTS. No guides, no addons, no one knew the boss fight. But we still knew to stay out of the shards of glass, to roll the aoes dropping on us. I found out the boss enrages accidentally by standing too far away, which is in-line with other newer bosses.

Last boss, I stood in the waves because I'm lazy and it didn't kill me even though I have a bad habit of standing in 2 wave areas instead of just 1 like a sane person would. But could tell the "spaghetti" beams were dangerous because they actually made an AoE on the ground and look like a laser. Lasers usually hurt, may one-shot or may not, and generally can be rolled through.

Desiato

I'm the kind of player who likes to learn on the fly and if that fails I don't mind looking something up.

BUT, I know not everyone is.

So I wish they had a basic one screen help image for each boss encounter that gives inexperienced players some notion of what they can expect. Not step by step instructions, but some clues about the challenges they will face. At least for vet dungeons, but not necessarily trials.

It's important such an image be basic so that it can be referenced quickly.

The reason I feel this way is because through its random group making function often pushes the experienced and inexperienced together which can be stressful for both parties.

disky

Soarora wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I’ve played with people who don’t use combat addons and it doesn’t take them much longer to learn the content and stop dying. Someone in my tri group who I’ve done every dungeon trifecta with has not used combat addons the whole time. Yes, codes combat alerts helps with some deaths that could’ve not happened, but it wasn’t a severe disadvantage to not have it and I feel its more about projectiles and heavy attacks than AoEs anyways. I play new dungeons on PTS (previously as a DPS, now as tank) and even though I use codes (on live, of course it doesn't work with new dungeons), I don’t run into problems not having it on PTS. Only thing I had trouble with was dying to Tho’at’s heavy attack repeatedly but that’s because my block button had different binding on PTS and so whenever I tried to block I wasn’t actually blocking.

I just tend to overestimate how much something will hurt and it works fine (ex. holding block almost all the time as a tank). Its okay to die sometimes, we all still die. Like the time I tried to stack the SCP first boss trolls on normal and promptly died because I thought it wouldn’t be so bad on normal.

Can you confirm that those people never once looked at a wiki to better understand what will kill them outright, or do extremely high damage? Also, does it matter? I'm not here to criticize the addons I talked about, I'm using them as a way to say that hand-holding is not uncommon in the highest levels of the PvE game, and it's quite ironic to me that so many people are opposed to the idea I presented when they actively use mods like this. It just feels like cognitive dissonance.

Yes, I can confirm they don't look at wikis or watch videos and I've done first runs with them before (and again, I run on PTS where no one has combat addons anyways because its not like Code is a wizard haha). I don't see a problem with making 1-shot AoEs look different like how heavy attacks have a unique animation, but I'm also still waiting for examples of attacks you've had problems with because some of them (like the Fang Lair shalks that have been mentioned a few times on this thread) do actually have animations that tell you what to do, meaning the blame is actually on a lack of tutorial and not the mechanic itself.

I'm not interested in having a conversation about what I'm missing or doing wrong about one boss or another, and frankly my memory isn't that great when it comes to ESO bosses because they're just a set of mechanics to me. But taking a look at Xynode's IA guide, there are some descriptions which give an idea of what I'm talking about:

Iceheart:
"He will occasionally fire off a frontal cleave which can be blocked OR you can step to one side (it will knock you down if not), and then watch for his BIG STOMP! If you stand in that when he slams his foot down, you are likely to die."

Kjarg the Tuskscraper:
"During the fight, he will enrage and glow red. When this happens he will hit HARDER but you can hit HIM harder, so it works both ways really. Be careful though, one shots are common!"

Laatvulon:
"He will come in with his LAKE TOWN type mechanic where he does an ice breath fly by freezing the ground. Getting in the way of it or STANDING in any of the leftover ice WILL kill you. Even if you are a tank."

I'm not asking for a boss to give me a tutorial for every mechanic and I would never expect it. As Code and I have both said, the game is not built to indicate lethality through animation/effect/audio cues if you aren't already familiar with the fight, and I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to expect that a certain animation will effectively demonstrate lethality the first time you encounter the boss. It absolutely can after you die, but it might not until you've already died multiple times.

Soarora

disky wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I’ve played with people who don’t use combat addons and it doesn’t take them much longer to learn the content and stop dying. Someone in my tri group who I’ve done every dungeon trifecta with has not used combat addons the whole time. Yes, codes combat alerts helps with some deaths that could’ve not happened, but it wasn’t a severe disadvantage to not have it and I feel its more about projectiles and heavy attacks than AoEs anyways. I play new dungeons on PTS (previously as a DPS, now as tank) and even though I use codes (on live, of course it doesn't work with new dungeons), I don’t run into problems not having it on PTS. Only thing I had trouble with was dying to Tho’at’s heavy attack repeatedly but that’s because my block button had different binding on PTS and so whenever I tried to block I wasn’t actually blocking.

I just tend to overestimate how much something will hurt and it works fine (ex. holding block almost all the time as a tank). Its okay to die sometimes, we all still die. Like the time I tried to stack the SCP first boss trolls on normal and promptly died because I thought it wouldn’t be so bad on normal.

Can you confirm that those people never once looked at a wiki to better understand what will kill them outright, or do extremely high damage? Also, does it matter? I'm not here to criticize the addons I talked about, I'm using them as a way to say that hand-holding is not uncommon in the highest levels of the PvE game, and it's quite ironic to me that so many people are opposed to the idea I presented when they actively use mods like this. It just feels like cognitive dissonance.

Yes, I can confirm they don't look at wikis or watch videos and I've done first runs with them before (and again, I run on PTS where no one has combat addons anyways because its not like Code is a wizard haha). I don't see a problem with making 1-shot AoEs look different like how heavy attacks have a unique animation, but I'm also still waiting for examples of attacks you've had problems with because some of them (like the Fang Lair shalks that have been mentioned a few times on this thread) do actually have animations that tell you what to do, meaning the blame is actually on a lack of tutorial and not the mechanic itself.

I'm not interested in having a conversation about what I'm missing or doing wrong about one boss or another, and frankly my memory isn't that great when it comes to ESO bosses because they're just a set of mechanics to me. But taking a look at Xynode's IA guide, there are some descriptions which give an idea of what I'm talking about:

Iceheart:
"He will occasionally fire off a frontal cleave which can be blocked OR you can step to one side (it will knock you down if not), and then watch for his BIG STOMP! If you stand in that when he slams his foot down, you are likely to die."

Kjarg the Tuskscraper:
"During the fight, he will enrage and glow red. When this happens he will hit HARDER but you can hit HIM harder, so it works both ways really. Be careful though, one shots are common!"

Laatvulon:
"He will come in with his LAKE TOWN type mechanic where he does an ice breath fly by freezing the ground. Getting in the way of it or STANDING in any of the leftover ice WILL kill you. Even if you are a tank."

I'm not asking for a boss to give me a tutorial for every mechanic and I would never expect it. As Code and I have both said, the game is not built to indicate lethality through animation/effect/audio cues if you aren't already familiar with the fight, and I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to expect that a certain animation will effectively demonstrate lethality the first time you encounter the boss. It absolutely can after you die, but it might not until you've already died multiple times.

Well, I don't want to go through every fight and explain every mechanic either haha. But like I said, it's probably not always the fault of the mechanic but a lack of good combat tutorial which is another major problem. What's mentioned with Kjarg is just a normal enrage (something that should be in a combat tutorial) and what's mentioned with the dragon is a regular dragon attack (you will see it with literally any dragon except for Maarselok who used to do it but doesn't anymore). Something I see ZOS doing lately is adding mechanics that happen in 4- and 12-man content into overland so people can hopefully learn mechanics without it being as stressful.

disky

Soarora wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I’ve played with people who don’t use combat addons and it doesn’t take them much longer to learn the content and stop dying. Someone in my tri group who I’ve done every dungeon trifecta with has not used combat addons the whole time. Yes, codes combat alerts helps with some deaths that could’ve not happened, but it wasn’t a severe disadvantage to not have it and I feel its more about projectiles and heavy attacks than AoEs anyways. I play new dungeons on PTS (previously as a DPS, now as tank) and even though I use codes (on live, of course it doesn't work with new dungeons), I don’t run into problems not having it on PTS. Only thing I had trouble with was dying to Tho’at’s heavy attack repeatedly but that’s because my block button had different binding on PTS and so whenever I tried to block I wasn’t actually blocking.

I just tend to overestimate how much something will hurt and it works fine (ex. holding block almost all the time as a tank). Its okay to die sometimes, we all still die. Like the time I tried to stack the SCP first boss trolls on normal and promptly died because I thought it wouldn’t be so bad on normal.

Can you confirm that those people never once looked at a wiki to better understand what will kill them outright, or do extremely high damage? Also, does it matter? I'm not here to criticize the addons I talked about, I'm using them as a way to say that hand-holding is not uncommon in the highest levels of the PvE game, and it's quite ironic to me that so many people are opposed to the idea I presented when they actively use mods like this. It just feels like cognitive dissonance.

Yes, I can confirm they don't look at wikis or watch videos and I've done first runs with them before (and again, I run on PTS where no one has combat addons anyways because its not like Code is a wizard haha). I don't see a problem with making 1-shot AoEs look different like how heavy attacks have a unique animation, but I'm also still waiting for examples of attacks you've had problems with because some of them (like the Fang Lair shalks that have been mentioned a few times on this thread) do actually have animations that tell you what to do, meaning the blame is actually on a lack of tutorial and not the mechanic itself.

I'm not interested in having a conversation about what I'm missing or doing wrong about one boss or another, and frankly my memory isn't that great when it comes to ESO bosses because they're just a set of mechanics to me. But taking a look at Xynode's IA guide, there are some descriptions which give an idea of what I'm talking about:

Iceheart:
"He will occasionally fire off a frontal cleave which can be blocked OR you can step to one side (it will knock you down if not), and then watch for his BIG STOMP! If you stand in that when he slams his foot down, you are likely to die."

Kjarg the Tuskscraper:
"During the fight, he will enrage and glow red. When this happens he will hit HARDER but you can hit HIM harder, so it works both ways really. Be careful though, one shots are common!"

Laatvulon:
"He will come in with his LAKE TOWN type mechanic where he does an ice breath fly by freezing the ground. Getting in the way of it or STANDING in any of the leftover ice WILL kill you. Even if you are a tank."

I'm not asking for a boss to give me a tutorial for every mechanic and I would never expect it. As Code and I have both said, the game is not built to indicate lethality through animation/effect/audio cues if you aren't already familiar with the fight, and I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to expect that a certain animation will effectively demonstrate lethality the first time you encounter the boss. It absolutely can after you die, but it might not until you've already died multiple times.

Well, I don't want to go through every fight and explain every mechanic either haha. But like I said, it's probably not always the fault of the mechanic but a lack of good combat tutorial which is another major problem. What's mentioned with Kjarg is just a normal enrage (something that should be in a combat tutorial) and what's mentioned with the dragon is a regular dragon attack (you will see it with literally any dragon except for Maarselok who used to do it but doesn't anymore). Something I see ZOS doing lately is adding mechanics that happen in 4- and 12-man content into overland so people can hopefully learn mechanics without it being as stressful.

Again, I don't think tutorials are ever going to become common and I also don't think they're the solution. There are simply too many bosses with too many mechanics, and I think it makes a lot more sense to just tell players "this is a high-damage/lethal attack so gtfo" with a different kind of indicator. It's simple and it serves as a systemic solution, rather than something which must be created on a per-boss basis.

katanagirl1

disky wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

disky wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Even if it could be implemented, I don't think that it should be iimplemented.

Learning through experience is a key component in any game worth it's weight. It's the thrill of the unknown until it's known that makes it exciting and engaging. I really don't like games that would spoil its own surprises. I find them less fun.

Without looking it up, many players just die repeatedly to lethal attacks which can be far stronger than an attack with an identical indicator and I don't personally think that is fun.

IMHO, it's up to the player to realize that if doing the same thing over and over again isn't getting them anywhere, then they need to take a step back and reassess their strategy. Once they find one that works, then remember it for the next time they find themselves in the same position.

There's a reason the term "Don't stand in stupid" has become cliche in MMO's. Even tanks worth their weight in salt know that they can't just stand there doing nothing when they know "something" is coming. Even if they don't know what it is exactly .

[caveat for moderators] I did not use the term "stupid" to represent anybody in the thread. I used it only in it's contextual relationship with a well known phrase that the average gamer likely knows.

I agree that standing in one place and never moving is not a good idea and that learning how to fight is good, that's not the argument I'm making and I think you know that. The point is that there are attacks which kill instantly or very quickly and those that are far less lethal, and making the distinction is worthwhile. I'm not asking for an easy mode in any way, just a way to know when an enemy is using a "normal" attack versus an "ultimate" attack without dying repeatedly or looking it up.

I also would like to hear your thoughts on the second paragraph in my reply which you didn't seem to address.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I disagree as someone who has done some vet hard mode trials. There are times when you would want to stay stacked and let the healers heal you through something, but that is usually because not standing together in the same spot is worse. You should never stand in aoes if you don’t have a team you know and do not know the mechanics and are not instructed to do so. Every situation is different. Aoes have damage ticks that add damage every tick and you cannot heal yourself enough to stay there, especially if you are properly geared as dps with full damage. Experience or a trial lead as a teacher are the only way to learn.

See above.

After reading all since I posted this, never mind - I’m out. I was just trying to help. I don’t think I can be successful.

disky

katanagirl1 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

disky wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Even if it could be implemented, I don't think that it should be iimplemented.

Learning through experience is a key component in any game worth it's weight. It's the thrill of the unknown until it's known that makes it exciting and engaging. I really don't like games that would spoil its own surprises. I find them less fun.

Without looking it up, many players just die repeatedly to lethal attacks which can be far stronger than an attack with an identical indicator and I don't personally think that is fun.

IMHO, it's up to the player to realize that if doing the same thing over and over again isn't getting them anywhere, then they need to take a step back and reassess their strategy. Once they find one that works, then remember it for the next time they find themselves in the same position.

There's a reason the term "Don't stand in stupid" has become cliche in MMO's. Even tanks worth their weight in salt know that they can't just stand there doing nothing when they know "something" is coming. Even if they don't know what it is exactly .

[caveat for moderators] I did not use the term "stupid" to represent anybody in the thread. I used it only in it's contextual relationship with a well known phrase that the average gamer likely knows.

I agree that standing in one place and never moving is not a good idea and that learning how to fight is good, that's not the argument I'm making and I think you know that. The point is that there are attacks which kill instantly or very quickly and those that are far less lethal, and making the distinction is worthwhile. I'm not asking for an easy mode in any way, just a way to know when an enemy is using a "normal" attack versus an "ultimate" attack without dying repeatedly or looking it up.

I also would like to hear your thoughts on the second paragraph in my reply which you didn't seem to address.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I disagree as someone who has done some vet hard mode trials. There are times when you would want to stay stacked and let the healers heal you through something, but that is usually because not standing together in the same spot is worse. You should never stand in aoes if you don’t have a team you know and do not know the mechanics and are not instructed to do so. Every situation is different. Aoes have damage ticks that add damage every tick and you cannot heal yourself enough to stay there, especially if you are properly geared as dps with full damage. Experience or a trial lead as a teacher are the only way to learn.

See above.

After reading all since I posted this, never mind - I’m out. I was just trying to help. I don’t think I can be successful.

Respectfully, I was never looking for advice about how to play the game. I know how to play the game. I was looking for feedback on the idea, and I guess I have it now.

Amottica

disky wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I have always thought it was best to get cues from the game itself and rely on queues from the game UI or add-ons as a secondary tool when it is not apparent or challenging to tell what will happen via actions in the game, much like what Coe is speaking to.

If I don't notice what is happening in the game, I will probably miss what an add-on tells me to do. I have seen players miss telegraphs of major attacks the game provides and die to them. This demonstrates the importance of paying attention to what happens in the game.

Oh, and I always suggest anyone wanting to try trials find a good casual raiding guild. These guilds should have raid leaders who help players learn what is happening and what to do. Granted, some guilds will be better for this than others, but there are experienced raiders who raid with other groups to help them improve and clear raids.

If the game had a more immersive way of telling the player what is and isn't a devastating attack, I would agree 100%. The problem is that there is functionally no way to know, without dying or looking it up, which attacks are devastating and which aren't. It's just not how the game has been built, and Code said the exact same thing a few posts back. I've even tried to turn off combat indicators but let me tell you, if you do that, you will probably have a very difficult time surviving in challenging content. The game has been built with these indicators in mind, and it wants players to rely on them. The fact that only a single kind of indicator exists for "normal" and "ultimate" attacks can create an unnecessarily fatal situation and adding a way for players to understand what must be avoided is, in my opinion, far from babying the player.

Welcome to progression. As @code65536 noted, even though they created and manage an add-on to help other players with mechanics, they and many players have to learn the fights without that help. Even then, the fights are intended to be more challenging than regular quests, especially overland.

As I noted in my last paragraph, finding a good casual raiding guild is helpful. It may require checking out a few guilds, as some say they raid or are raiding guilds but are not very active. They will help you understand the fights and mechanics. Also, get used to using voice comms. If on PC, that is likely to be Discord, but some still use TS. Some groups may require voice comms.

I do suggest getting into raids. It opens up a lot of great experiences in the game. I also recommend doing as much as you can to recognize as much as is happening as you can vs. relying on an addon to give instructions on how to play the game. You will find it more enjoyable as it will increase your skill as a player.

Good luck.