Cyrodiil without cheating

Tigor · January 11

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

100% chance there will still be baseless cheat accusations on the Vengeance campaign.

Why is this thread still going again? Still waiting for anything even resembling proof or evidence.

As if you ask for them. Once and for all let it vanish.

MincMincMinc · January 12

Tigor wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

This thread has no purpose..... OP gave us no info other than they are a GM that somehow thinks people can "cheat".

The purpose is to recognise different situations. Improve by seeing and accepting also that better players exist. Learning and adapting to the possibility that what looks like a cheat can only be assessed as exploids or optimised builds.
How those are spread is still questionable and the access is sometimes not easy. Lets hope players are not really hacking or using CE. To be very effective with this matter when it impairs demeanor. Fights can't always be won. Our guild is still doing very well.

What does that even mean? What cheating is taking place? You are just making up nonsense.

What sort of elite hackerman stuff do you believe is possible? Do you not understand what the difference is between serverside and clientside? You literally cant use CE anymore, that was fixed back in like 2016 when calcs were moved serverside.......and when the lag started.

Tigor · January 12

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

This thread has no purpose..... OP gave us no info other than they are a GM that somehow thinks people can "cheat".

The purpose is to recognise different situations. Improve by seeing and accepting also that better players exist. Learning and adapting to the possibility that what looks like a cheat can only be assessed as exploids or optimised builds.
How those are spread is still questionable and the access is sometimes not easy. Lets hope players are not really hacking or using CE. To be very effective with this matter when it impairs demeanor. Fights can't always be won. Our guild is still doing very well.

What does that even mean? What cheating is taking place? You are just making up nonsense.

What sort of elite hackerman stuff do you believe is possible? Do you not understand what the difference is between serverside and clientside? You literally cant use CE anymore, that was fixed back in like 2016 when calcs were moved serverside.......and when the lag started.

Your scepticism and my foresighted vision. Perfect combo. Nonsense does maybe not even excist. Observations made in the field often go beyond rationalism. So it is then the illusionistic lag causing the cheat, as you just stated. Challenges for a improvement at the server to level lag out. The faster the connection the slower the response.

Idinuse · January 12

It sure might be some sort of error, but things like this do not instill confidence in that there is "absolutely nothing going on - circulate".

xylena_lazarow · January 12

Idinuse wrote: »

It sure might be some sort of error, but things like this does not instill confidence in that there is absolutely nothing going on

Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this PvP discourse. There is nothing in that screenshot of value that could actually tell you how you died. Unfortunately you need the CMX addon so you can see timestamps and all the skills that your death recap decided "weren't important enough" to display.

Idinuse · January 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

It sure might be some sort of error, but things like this does not instill confidence in that there is absolutely nothing going on

Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this PvP discourse. There is nothing in that screenshot of value that could actually tell you how you died. Unfortunately you need the CMX addon so you can see timestamps and all the skills that your death recap decided "weren't important enough" to display.

Yes always the same answer. Not that CMX is need to see that I was hit by a Crystal Fragment and Deep Fissure from the same player, but here is the CMX.

xylena_lazarow · January 12

Thanks for the CMX, that's definitely a weird one.

See OP that's all you had to do.

Major_Mangle · January 12

Idinuse wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

It sure might be some sort of error, but things like this does not instill confidence in that there is absolutely nothing going on

Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this PvP discourse. There is nothing in that screenshot of value that could actually tell you how you died. Unfortunately you need the CMX addon so you can see timestamps and all the skills that your death recap decided "weren't important enough" to display.

Yes always the same answer. Not that CMX is need to see that I was hit by a Crystal Fragment and Deep Fissure from the same player, but here is the CMX.

By the looks of it you´re playing a sorc, that lightning staff attack + crystal frag was most likely yours that got reflected by a sword and board ultimate (or similar reflect skills).

Idinuse · January 12

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

It sure might be some sort of error, but things like this does not instill confidence in that there is absolutely nothing going on

Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this PvP discourse. There is nothing in that screenshot of value that could actually tell you how you died. Unfortunately you need the CMX addon so you can see timestamps and all the skills that your death recap decided "weren't important enough" to display.

Yes always the same answer. Not that CMX is need to see that I was hit by a Crystal Fragment and Deep Fissure from the same player, but here is the CMX.

By the looks of it you´re playing a sorc, that lightning staff attack + crystal frag was most likely yours that got reflected by a sword and board ultimate (or similar reflect skills).

Might indeed be!

Just_Attivi · January 13

Idinuse wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

It sure might be some sort of error, but things like this does not instill confidence in that there is absolutely nothing going on

Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this PvP discourse. There is nothing in that screenshot of value that could actually tell you how you died. Unfortunately you need the CMX addon so you can see timestamps and all the skills that your death recap decided "weren't important enough" to display.

Yes always the same answer. Not that CMX is need to see that I was hit by a Crystal Fragment and Deep Fissure from the same player, but here is the CMX.

By the looks of it you´re playing a sorc, that lightning staff attack + crystal frag was most likely yours that got reflected by a sword and board ultimate (or similar reflect skills).

Might indeed be!

having gotten called out as a hacker on my templar for killing someone with their own frags vs my shield ult earlier this evening, and knowing juggy generally runs shield ult back bar (check his streams to verify if youd like) Im pretty confident your own frags got bounced back on you there.

Tigor · January 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Thanks for the CMX, that's definitely a weird one.

See OP that's all you had to do.

Actively looking for proof of no cheating is also a way to look at this matter. 👍🏻Lets keep checking CMX and please share some more.

xylena_lazarow · January 13

Tigor wrote: »

Actively looking for proof of no cheating is also a way to look at this matter.

Okay fine. Now prove that unicorns don't exist

MincMincMinc · January 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Actively looking for proof of no cheating is also a way to look at this matter.

Okay fine. Now prove that unicorns don't exist

The problem is that you think this will make him realize your point and not reinforce his somehow.

Tigor · January 13

Actively looking for proof of no cheating.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Actively looking for proof of no cheating is also a way to look at this matter.

Okay fine. Now prove that unicorns don't exist

Yeah jokes with humor count them in. So unicorns are abused by cheaters as they are mythic! 🤭

xylena_lazarow · January 13

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The problem is that you think this will make him realize your point and not reinforce his somehow.

I'm well aware he's gonna keep doubling down. But there's a larger audience. That's why PvForum is fun

MincMincMinc · January 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

The problem is that you think this will make him realize your point and not reinforce his somehow.

I'm well aware he's gonna keep doubling down. But there's a larger audience. That's why PvForum is fun

You like how I guessed correctly lol?

Even generally logical people on the forums tend to never concede an argument. In this case, no argument was even made with the op still doubling and tripling down.

xylena_lazarow · January 14

MincMincMinc wrote: »

You like how I guessed correctly lol? Even generally logical people on the forums tend to never concede an argument. In this case, no argument was even made with the op still doubling and tripling down.

Remember that insane Hardened Ward thread that lasted 6 months and 2000 posts? I'm sure those particular Sorc players still remain unconvinced to this day, but that was never the point, and in the end, the mission was a success.

Tigor · January 14

@xylena_lazarow and @MincMincMinc

Special message for you. Without using any slang. Deviating from the topic in order to change my opinion is indeed not easy. I started this topic because in campaigns were we have been fighting as a guild, the population was structurally shrinking. We used that situation for the opportunity to invest more in deepening our knowledge about this game, as a response to survive. In that philosophy we expected that as a group and individual players, improvements would bring us to the point to defeat also the so called 1vX players that have a crookedness aura. It was not easy but we are getting to the point were we more effectively can handle them. It payed off. I can understand that all kind of different accusations made are the result of intense experiences. Cyrodiil is a large hop on hop off 🚌 with low and high times and there are always surprises lurking. I personally think with bit more variaty the population might increase again. Now too often fights are dominated by e.g. faction stacks, 1vX and ball groups. As an example, why fighting mounted was never introduced? Would be a new experience for new and old players and bypass the combat bug and also indirectly nerf sorcerers a bit.

xylena_lazarow · January 14

Tigor wrote: »

As an example, why fighting mounted was never introduced?

Hell yeah now we can agree on something!

Alchimiste1 · January 17

Tigor wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

This thread has no purpose..... OP gave us no info other than they are a GM that somehow thinks people can "cheat".

The purpose is to recognise different situations. Improve by seeing and accepting also that better players exist. Learning and adapting to the possibility that what looks like a cheat can only be assessed as exploids or optimised builds.
How those are spread is still questionable and the access is sometimes not easy. Lets hope players are not really hacking or using CE. To be very effective with this matter when it impairs demeanor. Fights can't always be won. Our guild is still doing very well.

What does that even mean? What cheating is taking place? You are just making up nonsense.

What sort of elite hackerman stuff do you believe is possible? Do you not understand what the difference is between serverside and clientside? You literally cant use CE anymore, that was fixed back in like 2016 when calcs were moved serverside.......and when the lag started.

Your scepticism and my foresighted vision. Perfect combo. Nonsense does maybe not even excist. Observations made in the field often go beyond rationalism. So it is then the illusionistic lag causing the cheat, as you just stated. Challenges for a improvement at the server to level lag out. The faster the connection the slower the response.

Sorry, I am but a simple electrical engineer can someone translate what this great philosopher is trying to say ?

TechMaybeHic · January 18

People really call cheat too easily to take a lot seriously. Tonight; I basically through gear on my Warden I haven't played forever from another character, just went with it. Had a keep fight that was kind of split up with a few and after, I got a whisper being called a cheater with a few 4 letter words. I barely log in and couldn't be bothered to go build an actual acuity build or anything, so of course I wouldn't bother to cheat in any way. Have no idea even where someone would start.

Sure made my night; though. Been so casual; its been a long time since I've gotten even a hate tell let alone rise to the level of cheater

Theignson · January 18

I've PvPed thousands of hours. Although I don't consider myself uber by any means, I often hold my own and generally have pretty high K/D etc.

Despite thousands of hours of play I very rarely suspect cheating.

For example, I have played against the same players many times in Cyrodil. I see other players call them cheaters, but I don't think they are. I just think they are good. Some of them are expert 1vXers (almost extinct now). Some of them have optimized 4 man's in which they are almost immortal but deal out tons of damage. Pretty easy to explain.

Sometimes, however, I get hit with things I simply cannot replicate and can't even produce these numbers theoretically.

Recently I got hit by a 25k spectral bow and a 16k arterial burst. This was in the context of a 22k Incap. Then another player hit me with a 17k arterial burst!

I can see the 22k incap. Very occasionally I can get near 20k.

But the arterial burst really bothers me. I can't get anywhere near that. I have a NB I've played up to the General level. I've ganked a fair number of people although it isnt my preferred style. My arterial bursts are generally 6-7k with crit after an incap. Also, as I posted elsewhere, I can't see how they get 25k bows.

There used to be people who actually understood the numbers. They could calculate , given a certain set of stats and a crit, plus resists, plus crit resists, and other factors, what the damage output should be, also given battle spirit. I would like to see one of those old time math experts explain how a normal skill like arterial burst can hit for 17k.

For example I was playing with a sated fury+ titan +true sworn+ vamp+ stealth. I have not optimized this yet as it takes some getting use to. But with around 7700 WD, 113% crit damage, my arterial burst crit hit for 6-7k after incap. So how much higher would my stats have to get to get to 17k which is 62% higher!!?? I dont see how it is possible.

In those rare instances where I can't replicate or explain astronomical hits, I wonder about cheats. Of course if someone showed me the numbers I would feel better.

Alchimiste1 · January 19

Theignson wrote: »

I've PvPed thousands of hours. Although I don't consider myself uber by any means, I often hold my own and generally have pretty high K/D etc.

Despite thousands of hours of play I very rarely suspect cheating.

For example, I have played against the same players many times in Cyrodil. I see other players call them cheaters, but I don't think they are. I just think they are good. Some of them are expert 1vXers (almost extinct now). Some of them have optimized 4 man's in which they are almost immortal but deal out tons of damage. Pretty easy to explain.

Sometimes, however, I get hit with things I simply cannot replicate and can't even produce these numbers theoretically.

Recently I got hit by a 25k spectral bow and a 16k arterial burst. This was in the context of a 22k Incap. Then another player hit me with a 17k arterial burst!

I can see the 22k incap. Very occasionally I can get near 20k.

But the arterial burst really bothers me. I can't get anywhere near that. I have a NB I've played up to the General level. I've ganked a fair number of people although it isnt my preferred style. My arterial bursts are generally 6-7k with crit after an incap. Also, as I posted elsewhere, I can't see how they get 25k bows.

There used to be people who actually understood the numbers. They could calculate , given a certain set of stats and a crit, plus resists, plus crit resists, and other factors, what the damage output should be, also given battle spirit. I would like to see one of those old time math experts explain how a normal skill like arterial burst can hit for 17k.

For example I was playing with a sated fury+ titan +true sworn+ vamp+ stealth. I have not optimized this yet as it takes some getting use to. But with around 7700 WD, 113% crit damage, my arterial burst crit hit for 6-7k after incap. So how much higher would my stats have to get to get to 17k which is 62% higher!!?? I dont see how it is possible.

In those rare instances where I can't replicate or explain astronomical hits, I wonder about cheats. Of course if someone showed me the numbers I would feel better.

I've been hit for a 22k incap from a full damage ganker. Its possible without any cheating but does require things like a 500 balorg and likely for you to be on your front bar after being hit by breech.

That being said These are the tooltips you would get from running a gank build with true sworn:

Incap
incap.png?ex=678d8e50&is=678c3cd0&hm=9a481b7aa79756d579392af4db4bce39936d172a4a3a6b8df33b878a53386d5e&

incap.png?ex=678d8e50&is=678c3cd0&hm=9a481b7aa79756d579392af4db4bce39936d172a4a3a6b8df33b878a53386d5e&

bow

bow.png?ex=678d8e57&is=678c3cd7&hm=3fb8f26e77b9365e35949bc914524ee9dd338f596eeb1412b16d58f0e267532e&

arterial

you said you got hit for a 22k incap and 17k arterial
the ratio of that is 17/22 = 0.77.
So arterial hit you about 80% as much as the incap

Theoretically based on the screenshots above,
the ratio of the tooltips between arterial and incap is: 14.4k/25k = 0.58 which is notable lower than the live damage (0.77 to 0.58 ratio) HOWEVER we also have to factor in the potential 33% damage increase that arterial gains from low health and the 20% damage increase from the incap debuff. From here it gets a little complicated because %damage modifiers aren't additive in this game. It really depends on other sources of damage/the other players resis so it's hard to give a number.

But if we go with the lowest possible damage using the 0.58 ratio then if you got hit for a 22k incap you can expect to get hit by a value GREATER than 22k*0.58= 12.76k arterial.

12.7k * X = 17k

> X = 1.33. Here X is the % damage modifier that incap debuff + arterial burst must add up to increase the 12.78k damage to the 17k you got hit for. (33% combined).

I feel like that result is within expectation and wouldn't trigger any Cheating flags.

xFocused · January 20

I've made this comment before but I'll never understand why so many PvP players in this game think cheating doesn't exist, lol. It literally takes less than 5 minutes to google and come across very active websites that offer cheats for this game, and not just PvP but PvE as well for parsing and other things. Not to mention.

Cronus is a very real thing in this game just like others, acting like it's not is silly. I get it. We want to blame "skill issue" or whatever else instead of just coming to terms that ESO isn't some untouchable game when it comes to cheats, exploits, etc...It's almost silly to sit here and think that these things don't exist in ESO while they absolutely exist in literally every popular/active PvP game on the market right now

Amottica · January 20

No offense but complaining about cheating without specifics is rather vague. We have seen very valid cheating brought up just as we have seen unlikely claims of cheating. Some claims of cheating result from facing a superior player, while others is severe server lag (which we all know happens). And, ofc, some are legitimate.

I expect all three platforms to capture video of the action, and I know all three can grab SS. On PC, we can capture the previous several minutes after hitting the pre-defined keybined. Grab this information and report the player to Zenimax. Be specific with the information. The more accurate and complete the information is, the more likely something will happen if it is, in fact, bonafide cheating.

Good luck.

Jierdanit · January 21

xFocused wrote: »

I've made this comment before but I'll never understand why so many PvP players in this game think cheating doesn't exist, lol. It literally takes less than 5 minutes to google and come across very active websites that offer cheats for this game, and not just PvP but PvE as well for parsing and other things. Not to mention.

Cronus is a very real thing in this game just like others, acting like it's not is silly. I get it. We want to blame "skill issue" or whatever else instead of just coming to terms that ESO isn't some untouchable game when it comes to cheats, exploits, etc...It's almost silly to sit here and think that these things don't exist in ESO while they absolutely exist in literally every popular/active PvP game on the market right now

Its not that cheating doesn't exist at all. I do think there might be a few cheaters in ESO PvP. I just also think that the people who claim cheating is a massive problem are severely exaggerating.

In the 8 years that I have been playing the game I have met less than 5 people in PvP that I thought might be cheating. And I was not sure enough about that to report any of them.
I would think that if cheating was as much of a thing as you suggest there would be a lot more people who make it obvious, because lets be fair lots of people would not be smart enough to cheat in a way that is not obvious to even very experienced players.

On the other hand I myself and lots of my friends have been called cheaters hundreds of times even though I have never touched cheats.

So yes some people might be cheating. But most (almost all) of the people who call someone else a cheater simply lack knowledge about game mechanics and complain about things that are perfectly possible within the game.

Tigor · January 21

Kill quest bugs. 3 templar counted after killing one. Why?

RealLoveBVB · January 21

Tigor wrote: »

Kill quest bugs. 3 templar counted after killing one. Why?

Because you were in a group, where 2 others had the same quest. It's still a bug in my opinion.

Hello Tigor btw

Theignson · January 21

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

I've PvPed thousands of hours. Although I don't consider myself uber by any means, I often hold my own and generally have pretty high K/D etc.

Despite thousands of hours of play I very rarely suspect cheating.

For example, I have played against the same players many times in Cyrodil. I see other players call them cheaters, but I don't think they are. I just think they are good. Some of them are expert 1vXers (almost extinct now). Some of them have optimized 4 man's in which they are almost immortal but deal out tons of damage. Pretty easy to explain.

Sometimes, however, I get hit with things I simply cannot replicate and can't even produce these numbers theoretically.

Recently I got hit by a 25k spectral bow and a 16k arterial burst. This was in the context of a 22k Incap. Then another player hit me with a 17k arterial burst!

I can see the 22k incap. Very occasionally I can get near 20k.

But the arterial burst really bothers me. I can't get anywhere near that. I have a NB I've played up to the General level. I've ganked a fair number of people although it isnt my preferred style. My arterial bursts are generally 6-7k with crit after an incap. Also, as I posted elsewhere, I can't see how they get 25k bows.

There used to be people who actually understood the numbers. They could calculate , given a certain set of stats and a crit, plus resists, plus crit resists, and other factors, what the damage output should be, also given battle spirit. I would like to see one of those old time math experts explain how a normal skill like arterial burst can hit for 17k.

For example I was playing with a sated fury+ titan +true sworn+ vamp+ stealth. I have not optimized this yet as it takes some getting use to. But with around 7700 WD, 113% crit damage, my arterial burst crit hit for 6-7k after incap. So how much higher would my stats have to get to get to 17k which is 62% higher!!?? I dont see how it is possible.

In those rare instances where I can't replicate or explain astronomical hits, I wonder about cheats. Of course if someone showed me the numbers I would feel better.

I've been hit for a 22k incap from a full damage ganker. Its possible without any cheating but does require things like a 500 balorg and likely for you to be on your front bar after being hit by breech.

That being said These are the tooltips you would get from running a gank build with true sworn:

Incap

bow

arterial

you said you got hit for a 22k incap and 17k arterial
the ratio of that is 17/22 = 0.77.
So arterial hit you about 80% as much as the incap

Theoretically based on the screenshots above,
the ratio of the tooltips between arterial and incap is: 14.4k/25k = 0.58 which is notable lower than the live damage (0.77 to 0.58 ratio) HOWEVER we also have to factor in the potential 33% damage increase that arterial gains from low health and the 20% damage increase from the incap debuff. From here it gets a little complicated because %damage modifiers aren't additive in this game. It really depends on other sources of damage/the other players resis so it's hard to give a number.

But if we go with the lowest possible damage using the 0.58 ratio then if you got hit for a 22k incap you can expect to get hit by a value GREATER than 22k*0.58= 12.76k arterial.

12.7k * X = 17k
> X = 1.33. Here X is the % damage modifier that incap debuff + arterial burst must add up to increase the 12.78k damage to the 17k you got hit for. (33% combined).

I feel like that result is within expectation and wouldn't trigger any Cheating flags.

This is a good analysis. I did some testing on the target dummies. My set up was Balorgh, Titan born (full bons ,50%), True sworn fury (full bonus) , sated fury to <50% with 5x, stealth plus Vamp stage 3 (strike from stealth) 5x merciless resolve buff.

If I had 200 ulti and major sorcery/brutality but not the trial buffs, I had 7500 WD, 111 crit damage, 18.5k penetration. Here incap was 49k, Bow was 66k, Art burst was 26k. Applying battlespirit = 24.5k Incap, 33k bow, 13.25k art burst. However, that does not include the mitigating effect of crit resists and resists above 18k. So those values are still higher than I could have gotten in PvP.

When I did the same setup with 500 ulti Balorgh, I got a (battlespirit reduced) 25k incap, 32k bow, 12.5k art burst. Not sure why these are a little lower

Now, when I did full trial buffs (all the above plus: major brutality, sorcery, slayer, savagery, courage, force plus many minors )-- way more buffs than possible in PvP especially as a ganker,
I got Weapon damage 9400, Crit dmg 156%, Penetration 41k.
Here my incap (battlespiirit reduced) was 41k , Bow was 55k, and arterial burst was 25k.

There is no aspect of PVP that reduces the effect of crit resists. So these values all have to be reduced for crit resists. This explains why crit resist (rallying cry) is so strong. It is also very hard to eliminate all the normal resists.

These tests indicate it is really hard for a ganker even with all the buffs those sets can give plus all vamp and NB buffs plus incap damage buff, to get to 17k arterial burst. Since you can't offset the crit resist, the 125% damage bonus must be reduced.

But I agree it is not "impossible" !!

These tests also highlight that the spectral bow is ridiculously OP but everyone knows that

Aces-High-82 · January 28

xFocused wrote: »

I've made this comment before but I'll never understand why so many PvP players in this game think cheating doesn't exist, lol. It literally takes less than 5 minutes to google and come across very active websites that offer cheats for this game, and not just PvP but PvE as well for parsing and other things. Not to mention.

Cronus is a very real thing in this game just like others, acting like it's not is silly. I get it. We want to blame "skill issue" or whatever else instead of just coming to terms that ESO isn't some untouchable game when it comes to cheats, exploits, etc...It's almost silly to sit here and think that these things don't exist in ESO while they absolutely exist in literally every popular/active PvP game on the market right now

There are several 3rd party softwares. Especially all positioning relative to geometry related ones are save to run undetected. Further its easy to manipulate the Client<->Server communication with how bad the ESO servers are.