Cyrodiil without cheating

Heren

Tigor wrote: »

Kill quest bugs. 3 templar counted after killing one. Why?

Obviously because you are cheating.

Alchimiste1

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I've made this comment before but I'll never understand why so many PvP players in this game think cheating doesn't exist, lol. It literally takes less than 5 minutes to google and come across very active websites that offer cheats for this game, and not just PvP but PvE as well for parsing and other things. Not to mention.

Cronus is a very real thing in this game just like others, acting like it's not is silly. I get it. We want to blame "skill issue" or whatever else instead of just coming to terms that ESO isn't some untouchable game when it comes to cheats, exploits, etc...It's almost silly to sit here and think that these things don't exist in ESO while they absolutely exist in literally every popular/active PvP game on the market right now

There are several 3rd party softwares. Especially all positioning relative to geometry related ones are save to run undetected. Further its easy to manipulate the Client<->Server communication with how bad the ESO servers are.

Very interesting,

And exactly are these features that are available using these 3rd party software ?

Aces-High-82

The servers periodically check for actor speed. As long as your actor does not exceede the speed cap you're free to change your actors coordinates within the geometry as you like.
This has been reported often enough, yet no action followed.
Server-Client package flow is not exclusively related to ESO.

WaywardArgonian

Just an observation, but there is a considerable overlap between people who maintain there is widespread cheating in this game and those who have accrued a server-wide reputation for baseless cheating accusations and hatewhispers whenever they lose a fight.

Alchimiste1

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

The servers periodically check for actor speed. As long as your actor does not exceede the speed cap you're free to change your actors coordinates within the geometry as you like.
This has been reported often enough, yet no action followed.
Server-Client package flow is not exclusively related to ESO.

Lol

Tigor

With the game being so versatile not everything is explainable any longer. The champions campagne will feel rudimentary and remove redundant elements. It is not ging back in time but mere a good clean up. At least a win for the whole entertainment.

Just_Attivi

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Just an observation, but there is a considerable overlap between people who maintain there is widespread cheating in this game and those who have accrued a server-wide reputation for baseless cheating accusations and hatewhispers whenever they lose a fight.

The problem is, many people default to "HAX" when they dont understand something. I remember being new to pvp, and fighting this DK with my lil zerg, and he just shrugged off our damage, then would turn and burn us like we were nothing. Even the tankier group members melted. Many were quick to call "(profanity) is a cheater" and at the time, I agreed. The reality of the situation? most of us were bow ganks without a clue running an alcast build and not understanding how powerful LOS is, and that he just played back bar til acuity and corrosive were up. THis same logic applies to other classes utilizing balorgh, tank up when the pressure is too hot, ult dump when youre ready and theyre not. a lot of small scale pvp'ers in their 3 and 4 man groups do exactly this but to better scale with more coordinated sets/skills.

Many people jump to "cheater" accusations when they havent seen a mechanic before, or just fail to understand it (which, I do agree that ZOS should explain stuff WAY better than they do).Also the kill recap should be dramatically better than it is, without add ons needed.

Examples that I've personally been called out for, just off the top of my head, include:
-"Radar Hax" - because I found stealthers in keeps doing a routine sweep after it flipped, by going into stealth and walking around until my detected eye opened a bit, and then drinking a detect pot. not hax
-"Speed Hax" - literally just a NB with triple swift jewels, Concealed weapon for minor expedition, refreshing path for major expedition, celerity, medium armor passives... not even speed cap, definitely not hax
- "Templar with sorcerer powers HAX!" - Shield ult'd their own frags back at them. L2P, not hax.
- "Templar with NB powers, INVISIBLE HAX!" - Vamp stage 4 + sprint. read skills, not hax.
- "Shield Hax, you should be toast" - this was before Hardened ward got a heal attached... just LOS/Streaking/Shielding/Dealing. Not hax.
- "Stun lock hax, I couldnt break free, cheater" - stam checked. or lagged out. or desynced because Servers are busted. not hax.
- "Canned macros, because too many sources of damage hit at once" - its called burst damage, numerous skills have timing/delays, even if it isnt listed. getting these to line up to go off at about the same time is a 'burst' . in this particular case, the person also didnt realized status effects get caused by skills and arent skill presses themselves, so they were extra confused by their recap. not hax. off the top of my head the easiest to line up is probably sorc with haunting curse, mages wrath, light attacks, streak and a dawny/meteor/whatever. add in scribing stuff nowadays and contingency can add even more stuff into that burst.
- "Reported for cheating" - probably many people, but the one that comes to mind was me trying to solo defend a keep on a 1 bar bow gank back when oakensoul was new, and it was literally just lethal arrow spam and merciless and invis on a NB. not hax, and arguably not even skill, just a guy who understood nothing about pvp.
- "you take no damage, invincibility hax!" - was literally playing a block tank for the lulz. heals and damage mitigation outdid your dps, not hax.
- "teleport hax" - shaded and/or psijic ult'd back into a keep/tower/whatever. not hax, literally one skill press.
-"Ultimate hacks, infinite ultimate" - this one was a team mate of mine while we were fighting the emperor... who gets double ult gen... using a cheap ultimate of incap... not hax, just emp buffs.

Yes, this is a wall of text, but its to illustrate that people immediately jump to accusations rather than learning mechanics, or even asking about it. so many players newer to pvp or just lacking the comprehension of it, start jumping onboard the hax train, and veteran pvp players can only do their best to explain that its literally mechanics/skills of the game, not cheats.

Thats not to say some form of cheating never existed, ive personally witnessed a few, namely people teleporting underground (had them tab targeted), healing entirely, and teleporting back up with an ult. No skill does that. Could it be the servers doing weird things? sure, if it happened once. the same players repeatedly? probably not. Once upon a time I saw a templar throwing overloads at me (I wasnt a sorc, so def not a shield ult reflection there). these are more obvious examples of people who likely found a way to exploit something or quite literally cheat. that said, I havent seen that in probably ~3 years, and even then, it was pretty rare.

TL;DR - impossible to cheat? probably not. but most accusations are just people not understanding game mechanics while combating players who do understand game mechanics.

Zabagad

Just_Attivi wrote: »

TL;DR - impossible to cheat? probably not. but most accusations are just people not understanding game mechanics while combating players who do understand game mechanics.

I agree to your hole post - it's a perfect summary which should be pinned in the pvp-forum and to be a mandatory "did you read xxx" before somebody can open a new thread with keywords *"cheater"* inside.

I only want to add one more reason - but I will do that in another post...

Zabagad

The only point I was missing was the following:

Of course, I can't look into the psyche of other players, so I'll take myself as an example.
I've had fights myself where I've surprisingly lost because I actually had the feeling that I was or should be better. (I believe I can actually judge myself quite well)
And when I lose one of these fights, I often grumble ‘cheater’ into my beard.

Once I even wrote to the winner and called him a cheater - without even knowing what he was supposed to have cheated.
Fortunately, I was able to realise the mistake after the adrenaline had gone.
After about 30 minutes, I wrote to him again and apologised.
Yes, self-praise stinks, but I think only a few people are able to do that - i.e. realise and apologise.

TL;DR:
Some players are just bad losers and need to shout ‘cheater’ as a coping strategy.

Idinuse

Just_Attivi wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

It sure might be some sort of error, but things like this does not instill confidence in that there is absolutely nothing going on

Death recaps are the worst thing to ever happen to this PvP discourse. There is nothing in that screenshot of value that could actually tell you how you died. Unfortunately you need the CMX addon so you can see timestamps and all the skills that your death recap decided "weren't important enough" to display.

Yes always the same answer. Not that CMX is need to see that I was hit by a Crystal Fragment and Deep Fissure from the same player, but here is the CMX.

By the looks of it you´re playing a sorc, that lightning staff attack + crystal frag was most likely yours that got reflected by a sword and board ultimate (or similar reflect skills).

Might indeed be!

having gotten called out as a hacker on my templar for killing someone with their own frags vs my shield ult earlier this evening, and knowing juggy generally runs shield ult back bar (check his streams to verify if youd like) Im pretty confident your own frags got bounced back on you there.

Yes! I can’t believe I didn’t take that into account. ^^b

WaywardArgonian

Just_Attivi wrote: »

The problem is, many people default to "HAX" when they dont understand something. I remember being new to pvp, and fighting this DK with my lil zerg, and he just shrugged off our damage, then would turn and burn us like we were nothing. Even the tankier group members melted. Many were quick to call "(profanity) is a cheater" and at the time, I agreed. The reality of the situation? most of us were bow ganks without a clue running an alcast build and not understanding how powerful LOS is, and that he just played back bar til acuity and corrosive were up. THis same logic applies to other classes utilizing balorgh, tank up when the pressure is too hot, ult dump when youre ready and theyre not. a lot of small scale pvp'ers in their 3 and 4 man groups do exactly this but to better scale with more coordinated sets/skills.

It is usually a mix of people lacking knowledge about the game and just bad faith/cope. I've sometimes been killed in ways I couldn't explain but in those cases I just clipped it and asked my friends in a PVP discord server. More often than not, I get a good explanation of what happened that did not involve cheating or exploits. There are cheats and exploits in the game but people who default to that explanation usually do so because they are frustrated and find it a more convenient option than having to learn something about the game.

A few examples I've seen:
- A player using a shield ultimate being explained as 'they activated their cheat engine' because the player momentarily stopped taking damage from 4 people spamming destro light attacks at them.
- Someone constantly complaining about players having 'infinite resources' because they did not seem to run out of stamina or magicka. When I reviewed some of their own gameplay I saw this player was constantly playing with an empty stamina bar because they hogged the sprint button, were not using sustain buff food, did nothing in the way of light or heavy attacks to restore stamina and gave no thought to their potion usage. In short, they effectively did no resource management and assumed everyone who did must be cheating.
- Someone using the Flying Blade skill on Templar getting called a cheater because people assumed he was using the Nightblade gap closer.
- Gankers/bombers who somehow still do not know about detection potions.
- Getting accused of ult hax because my Dawnbreaker appeared on their death screen twice (it applies a DoT).

It is both amusing and sad because some people are outright harassing anyone who lands a killing blow on them, yet ZOS does not seem to consider abusing the report system (or threatening to abuse it) as a violation of ToS.

Something I've also noticed is that offering to share one's knowledge of the game with these people is usually met with disinterest or outright hostility.

So as you say, cheats do exist in the game but I am much less inclined to believe someone's claims when they've cried wolf literally dozens of times.

Tigor

Many players are also fed up being named unwilling to learn and improve anything. The game mechanics are not so difficult and accusations made in the direction of learning to play are just ridiculous.

Ballgroups, unkillables and tower runner playstyles are in general classified as very annoying. Just be aware of it. Or are very positive responses more appropriate? That would be against a healthy psyche.

Pvp should be in some way healthy entertainment.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Tigor wrote: »

Many players are also fed up being named unwilling to learn and improve anything. The game mechanics are not so difficult and accusations made in the direction of learning to play are just ridiculous.

Ballgroups, unkillables and tower runner playstyles are in general classified as very annoying. Just be aware of it. Or are very positive responses more appropriate? That would be against a healthy psyche.

Pvp should be in some way healthy entertainment.

@Tigor
It would be better if you want to communicate frustration with the complexity of PVP to avoid using charged terminology like 'cheating' to describe behaviour which is in your eyes undesirable.

There are exploits, macro usage and external tools used by some players which can genuinely be labelled cheating.

However the majority of players who have a very high level of experience in theorycrafting builds and using well established game mechanics (even unintended ones which have since been adopted as accepted) would not consider things outside of exploits, macros and external tools cheating in the manner you have described.

MarioMario

Guys, after years and years of PvP on console, the first thing I noticed on PC was the abundance of PvP players using macros and bots. Period.

Tigor

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Many players are also fed up being named unwilling to learn and improve anything. The game mechanics are not so difficult and accusations made in the direction of learning to play are just ridiculous.

Ballgroups, unkillables and tower runner playstyles are in general classified as very annoying. Just be aware of it. Or are very positive responses more appropriate? That would be against a healthy psyche.

Pvp should be in some way healthy entertainment.

@Tigor
It would be better if you want to communicate frustration with the complexity of PVP to avoid using charged terminology like 'cheating' to describe behaviour which is in your eyes undesirable.

There are exploits, macro usage and external tools used by some players which can genuinely be labelled cheating.

However the majority of players who have a very high level of experience in theorycrafting builds and using well established game mechanics (even unintended ones which have since been adopted as accepted) would not consider things outside of exploits, macros and external tools cheating in the manner you have described.

Wait a minute, just something more to say, might it be that those so-called high level theory crafters are trying to clean their yard regarding justifications of corrected mechanics that are needed to improve Cyrodiil? If yes then their complex thinking is also their pitfall. If not then that cheating can be downgraded to trickery. Which is actually the same but has less taste. They might be good players but are just doing it in a manner that is very boring for others.

After years of balance disturbing honest feedback about their playstyles are returned as personal blames. I could dismantle this topic to the bottom but would rather leave that to the owners of the game who are responsible. After playing Cyrodiil for years it should be time to shift the balance more in favor of just a little less complexity, just to show that no cheating is involved. Don’t misinterpret me wrongly. I still like to play in Cyrodiil, but then also see as a consequence that I can distinguish very well what is good and wrong, if it concerns player capacity. Not that I wish to bind every player permanently in Cyrodiil, but many players are just logging off, or not logging on if ballgroups and unkillables exist. Not good.

Events like mayhem have proven to only seal the leakage temporarily as the population rises. The real problems come to the surface when everything is back to normal, or after an update. Then the theory crafters are coming again with unexplainable builds that are holding everyone up. Cycle after cycle after cycle...

MincMincMinc

How has this thread reached 4 pages? Its nonsensical "I think everyone is cheating" claims with no substance. What is even to discuss? OP has just been baiting everyone with non arguments.

xylena_lazarow

MincMincMinc wrote: »

How has this thread reached 4 pages? Its nonsensical "I think everyone is cheating" claims with no substance. What is even to discuss? OP has just been baiting everyone with non arguments.

Right, like why are all these good faith players still legitimizing vague baseless cheating accusations.

WaywardArgonian

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Right, like why are all these good faith players still legitimizing vague baseless cheating accusations.

It's indeed a bit ironic when those who call for a healthy game environment are also the most likely to accuse others of cheating with no evidence and/or regularly send abuse through whispers to players whose playstyle they don't like.

Just_Attivi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

How has this thread reached 4 pages? Its nonsensical "I think everyone is cheating" claims with no substance. What is even to discuss? OP has just been baiting everyone with non arguments.

Right, like why are all these good faith players still legitimizing vague baseless cheating accusations.

I cant speak for everyone, but I personally did not want to engage further as OP seemed to be brick walled about everything being a cheat, until I saw more people chiming in about players cheating, who are players that definitely dont cheat (honestly, I cant recall if it was this thread or another now, but either way, point stands). I Respond with the hopes that the masses who do come into the forums, seeing a title like this one, fueled with rage against the "cheaters" who beat them, and give explanation of what is more likely going on. I have no hope about changing the mind of the OP, as much as I hope the others drawn in by the title might be more receptive of feedback (and have gotten some DMs appreciating the explanations/questioning some of it, which have been healthy and good conversations that I think have enlightened some players about how some mechanics work, which imo means my comments have in fact helped dissuade more from engaging in cheat accusations vs things they dont understand. Win win!)

Dovahmiim

@Tigor Just go get Torc of Last Ayleid King mythic, throw it on any class, you'll do pretty well. It is likely you are just low skill and this is your issue though.

xylena_lazarow

Just_Attivi wrote: »

I Respond with the hopes that the masses who do come into the forums, seeing a title like this one, fueled with rage against the "cheaters" who beat them, and give explanation of what is more likely going on.

There's nothing "going on" in the OP though because it's vague and baseless. This is not a behavior that should be encouraged or engaged with. If OP thinks something is fishy then they need to explain exactly what they think might constitute cheating, with actual hard evidence or at least a coherent anecdote.

It's not like OP came in here and said "hey I just got yanked across the map, through terrain, then stunned and insta-killed, I think someone might be cheating" because that would be both somewhat sympathetic, and a specifically bizarre event that does have an in-game explanation. Vague and baseless just stinks of bait.

Zama666

Ball groups is a play style. And ball groups have been defeated.
If anything it is quintessential multiple player play.

ZOS puts out enough new sets and tweaks give options.

It is up to a players, to work together to defeat them.

Personally I find interesting when a bunch of single players form together and swarm the ball group to defeat it, like a team.
Different play styles, lots of rezzing, many directions.

Watching two ball groups mix it up is always fun to watch.

just my $0.02

Z

Tigor

And after Vengeance campaign it got even worse. Blackreach EU PC is full of them again. Need more Pact there so we can zerg.

WaywardArgonian

Tigor wrote: »

And after Vengeance campaign it got even worse. Blackreach EU PC is full of them again.

Do you have evidence/concrete examples now?

Tigor

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

And after Vengeance campaign it got even worse. Blackreach EU PC is full of them again.

Do you have evidence/concrete examples now?

I wonder now who is selling them these builds

WaywardArgonian

Tigor wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

And after Vengeance campaign it got even worse. Blackreach EU PC is full of them again.

Do you have evidence/concrete examples now?

I wonder now who is selling them these builds

???

What are you talking about?

Tigor

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

And after Vengeance campaign it got even worse. Blackreach EU PC is full of them again.

Do you have evidence/concrete examples now?

I wonder now who is selling them these builds

???

What are you talking about?

Those cheese builds are not for free.

WaywardArgonian

Tigor wrote: »

Those cheese builds are not for free.

Not sure what you're insinuating here. I've never seen anyone pay for builds. Personally I've made builds that can get you to put in optimal performances as a healer in both Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds alike. I have made all of them available publicly. Perhaps you should not spread these rumors if you have nothing to back them up with.

Tigor

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Those cheese builds are not for free.

Not sure what you're insinuating here. I've never seen anyone pay for builds. Personally I've made builds that can get you to put in optimal performances as a healer in both Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds alike. I have made all of them available publicly. Perhaps you should not spread these rumors if you have nothing to back them up with.

If builds are shared in public, why are they then for free? Now everyone is running the same optimized builds and no one is paying for it. Let those be the builds that lead to the annoying play styles. If set items are payed for, then why is sharing optimized builds for free and even allowed 🤔

WaywardArgonian

Tigor wrote: »

If builds are shared in public, why are they then for free? Now everyone is running the same optimized builds and no one is paying for it. Let those be the builds that lead to the annoying play styles. If set items are payed for, then why is sharing optimized builds for free and even allowed 🤔

What do you even mean? Why would sharing a build not be allowed?

ESO builds are not rocket science and there are plenty of people who share meta builds on their websites/YT channels. Contrary to popular belief, running a good build doesn't turn you into a good player. Some people actively work on improving their skills and performance while others stagnate as they focus on other things.