Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

Thumbless_Bot

Fwiw i am really happy they did it. The zos folks who shall remain nameless put themselves out there for the world to see. That's not easy. Kudos for showing support for us pvpers

fizzylu

@Stamicka
I personally felt like Sypher wasn't asking questions like that because he didn't want to create any negative tension. I think by the overall vibe and expressions in the video, you can see that he's not saying a lot that he probably wanted to say and wondering why they thought to do a lot of things that they did.... but that's just me.

gariondavey

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

Respectfully, Brian is the lead combat designer, and the person in charge of PVP development. He doesn't need to be an excellent, or even a good PVP player - but the fact that he did not understand basic combat mechanics and was unable to answer combat related questions from Sypher is very concerning.

For example, sypher asked brian what was pulling and stunning them - and brian simply could not answer. Shouldn't the lead combat designer know which set does that, especially when that set is talked about DAILY as a pain point here on the forums? There are dozens of posts complaining about rush of agony, and brian not even recognizing it (while one of his teammates is also wearing it, by the way) is infuriating.

As far as combat goes, I won't nitpick his performance. Anyone with any experience whatsoever in PVP could watch his gameplay and make the assumption that he has never once touched PVP before, and I'd tend to agree with them.

Additionally, Brian said something along the lines of "I'm playing a tank just to annoy people in PVP", which is a sentiment he repeated multiple times throughout the stream. The forums are full of complaints about the current tank meta and issues surrounding cross healing. It has been the number one pain point for the majority of the playerbase going on years now. To hear the lead combat designer and head of PVP development repeatedly flaunt his enjoyment for "useless tank builds" because they "annoy people" is disgusting, to be frank. It is so far disconnected from the reality of what the players want, but indicates to us that the universally poorly received balance of the past year is in fact exactly what the lead combat designer has in mind for the future of this game.

Finally, the state of these battlegrounds is absolutely unacceptable. The fact that something like 40-50% of the games during yesterday's stream did not start due to a bug is just unbelievable. We went nearly 6 years without receiving any meaningful PVP content whatsoever. This was the first patch in 6 years where we expected to be delivered a functioning, enjoyable piece of PVP content - and the battlegrounds we received are the furthest thing from that. They are plagued with gamebreaking bugs in regards to starting, massive oversights in death/respawn mechanics as well as inactivity kicking, and possess a completely meaningless "competitive" leaderboard where you dominate simply by spamming heals and playing more than other people, not by performing well offensively or in regards to objectives. There was an enormous amount of feedback surrounding these problems on the PTS - which was patently ignored, as is seemingly the norm for our feedback as players.

Excellent post and well said. I like many came to this game because it was a pvp based mmo rpg. I have played only this game for the last 7 years, and I have played every day minus maybe 4-5 total days. I play bgs, solo and the sweaty premades, solo and small scale ic, and some occasional cyro.
I have seen the direction this game has been going for a long time and kept hoping things would turn around.
I wish they would, but this "pvp" update and this stream are just prime examples of where this game is going wrong.
I really wish decisions would be made similar to how runescape does it. The gaming community is consulted there, input is listened to.
I've essentially given up on this game for now. A bunch of my small scale and bg premade friends have decided to move on to new world until we see some better direction for this game. Dedicated, veteran pvpers, leaving in droves. I hope zos turns things around and makes better decisions in game direction. I love this game and have played only it for 7 years, but when my friends are all gone to play a game that is actually more pvp focused like eso once was, I can't really find much enjoyment in eso. I'm having a blast with them now, but watching and waiting for eso to hopefully turn around.

LonePirate

I’m a long term ESO player who splits my time about 50-50 between PVE and PVP. I am not a PVP god by any means as I am more of a casual despite my experience. Opponents do not need to fear me in Cyrodiil. As such, I don’t have any complaints with what Brian played or how he played. However, I do expect someone in his position to be knowledgeable on the PVP aspects of the game. My boss expects me to be knowledgeable at my job and I think it is reasonable to expect that of people who have been in their job for many years.

That being said, there are several knowledgeable ESO PVP streamers - Bislobo, Pain, Okuy, Imperial and others. ZOS needs to be tapping into their vast knowledge and experience to get a bead on the PVP meta, status and issues. All ZOS needs to do is reach out and make an effort. Don’t ignore PVP like you have done with the stuck in combat bug which has been around for years and is never addressed. That bug’s long life has told me everything I need to know about ZOS’ opinion of PVP.

ESO_Nightingale

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, adding onto what Kevin posted earlier in this thread we'd like to address a few pieces of feedback we’ve seen about yesterday’s stream and more broadly touch on some of our communication philosophies.

First and foremost, thank you to everyone who has maintained constructiveness in this discussion thread. We’ve always said that constructive critical feedback is welcome and valuable, and we do mean it. As many of you who have been around awhile know, we also typically do not allow discussions about specific developers or the dev team. We prefer discussions focus on the game, as discussions about individual devs or the team often turn personal in a bad way. That said, we appreciate the efforts by most in this discussion to remain constructive and will leave it open so long as that continues. We do still encourage focusing commentary on the game, though, and not individual devs.

On the topic of our developers, we’ve seen through the years commentary around expectations of developer skill levels, especially with the more competitive PVP and PVE content. It's not expected that a developer has god-tier skill at the game. We have a wide range of skills and interests on the team, just like within our community. We range from progression pushers to casual players and everything in between, and that allows us to account for all player types - not just the god-tier ones.
This goes for knowledge about the game, too. ESO is a huge game with a lot of remember and track. We don't expect perfect encyclopedic recall of every piece a developer has ever worked on. Spacing on a name of an ability while running a stream or taking part in an interview doesn't mean that developer doesn't know the game or skills. It means they’re human.

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc. When a developer puts themselves out there and is met with unrealistic expectations and general personal attacks, it makes them not want to do any of those things again. So please, if you want more communication from us, keep in mind to be respectful and constructive. It’s okay to be frustrated, disappointed, unhappy with something, etc. and we only ask that you communicate that to us without bashing our developers in the process. Anecdotally, we also want players of all skill levels to feel welcome to try out things like PVP Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, dungeons, and trials, and feel okay with not necessarily being top-tier at it. It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

On the topic of some of the issues and concerns you all have called out, we are looking into why there are still some queuing issues like the ones you saw us encounter yesterday during the stream. We are aware of them and are digging into whether they’re due to people disconnecting, people declining the invite, or if something else is going on. We are also working on improving our MMR logic so that it provides a better experience and more balanced matches.

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

Hi @ZOS_JessicaFolsom I wanted to add to this. I did not watch this pvp stream but i wanted to say that I've been on these forums for a long time. I've been all different sorts of active. Back when i started making posts, around summerset i was angry and made a few flaming posts etc that got me warnings. I'm pretty sure i have 0 warnings left until i get banned, though it's been a long time since i got one. Since then i learned to just try and constructively give my feedback patch after patch. I'm pretty sure that some things I've suggested have been heard and even implemented.

I completely understand both sides here. Many people who comment on the forums are doing so because they are unsatisfied and made accounts explicitly for the purpose of expressing their discontent and feeling heard. Many of them have been giving feedback here for a long time. And so to them, when a developer doesn't showcase mastery of this game and cant pinpoint a massive painpoint people have had, they feel justified in their anger at why the state of the game isn't improving.

From the developers point of view you're trying so hard to connect with your playerbase in a way that people have been asking for and only getting a harsh response in return. I can absolutely understand why you may not want to continue to do things like this given how the discontented pvp playerbase has treated you.

I feel like the best path forward is to continue on with transparency. Sure, no-one is perfect at the game but we can listen to people who do know and have proper discussions about problems. It's just a shame that it often takes people a realisation that anger and lashing out solves literally nothing, like it did for me.

I think your recent efforts to double down on communication are incredibly commendable and i really hope that people can be civil towards the community and the development team.

Rkindaleft

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

I do want to say I appreciate you popping yourself into the thread, more communication always goes a long way.

The problem is that the developers have always said "we hear you" but there is a difference between being heard and actually being listened to. If you say "we hear you" and then proceed to double down on very unpopular changes or ones that are bad for the health of the game (like what happened with U35) you may as well just have said nothing at all because it's evident that the feedback has not been taken into account.

The reason people are frustrated with lack of communication is because often it feels like our feedback is being told to a wall. Now there is some dissatisfaction from the PvP players because based off of what was shown in the clip and what others have said here it speaks to some level that the people who are designing the balance in PvP don't have a profound grasp of how the PvP part of the game actually plays.

moderatelyfatman

On a similar thread: yes, I'm grateful that members of the ZOS team are communicating with the players.
However....
We are still the customer here and the product we're paying for has not functioned as intended in a very long time. If they cannot fix it then they need to hire new people who can.

Turtle_Bot

Destai wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc. When a developer puts themselves out there and is met with unrealistic expectations and general personal attacks, it makes them not want to do any of those things again. So please, if you want more communication from us, keep in mind to be respectful and constructive. It’s okay to be frustrated, disappointed, unhappy with something, etc. and we only ask that you communicate that to us without bashing our developers in the process. Anecdotally, we also want players of all skill levels to feel welcome to try out things like PVP Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, dungeons, and trials, and feel okay with not necessarily being top-tier at it. It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

Please don't let the negative people scare you guys away. Just saying you'll stop communicating because there's some bad eggs really does us all a disservice. That hasn't helped the game. If anything, sparse or stopped communications just makes things worse for you guys. Just look at how many people bombard your streams about PVP.

There's clearly a lot of pent-up frustration in the community because you guys really don't give us paragraphs like this often. And when players do constructively communicate, in these forums and Reddit, and give you guys detailed feedback, the vast majority of what we get back is "we're passing it along". If we're giving you guys detailed feedback, it's only fair to expect detailed responses.

Now, we had this stream - which was wonderful - where the lead combat developer wasn't able to speak some concerns or system mechanics. I get it - people stumble, people get nervous. Like you said, he's human. But, we've been after you guys for Q&As and AMAs and just general back-and-forth for years. Those suggestions are important. They give you something to prep for, and get everyone to the table calmly.

Back in U35, you guys rescinded a Q&A that really should've happened. That left a very bad taste in many people's mouths, that people still lament to this day. The changes themselves were confusing to many. So there's this impression that the developers aren't even close to the players' skills on the system they themselves design. There's concern that the development is focused on spreadsheets over feel. It was further made worse when the class rep program was closed down with no visible replacement.

Because of that history, when people see the lead combat designer (or any ZOS rep) stream, they see it as their one chance to be heard. When there's such a long history of changes that go against our feedback - like U35, the nightblade permaglow, etc. - and you guys turtling up when things get heated, you're going to keep dealing with these kinds of situations. I'm telling you this so you guys can find a way to address the old frustration and turn over a new leaf where paragraphs like this are more commonplace from ZOS.

People are thirsty for conversation with you guys. They really are. Please don't turtle up. Nothing is going to replace open, transparent communication.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

Thank you, Jessica. I read it all, wonderful post. Keep 'em coming. And let Brian know at least one person wants to see him stream more.

Spoiler tabbed the quote to save some space, since I too am guilty of long posts.

I really hope that the team, @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler and co can all have a chance to read the above quoted feedback. There are some very good points here.

I know it's rough to hear that things aren't going along as good as they should be, but as stated in the quoted feedback, keeping those lines of communication open, transparent and ongoing is paramount to keeping the success going.

When it comes to feedback, I understand it can be rough because there are so many different sides that need to be taken into account (something that is often forgotten about from all sides), but that is why it is important to listen and communicate in-depth with those who are providing detailed feedback, especially if they are also putting forward their own ideas for a balanced version of the topic being posted about. This is important because they are providing a clear direction as to what the desired outcome is for a change, be it small adjustment, complete rework, or somewhere in between, which can only ever help to provide a direction for the team to test their own ideas for the topic.

From what I have seen here on the forums, the vast majority of the feedback being given by "the sweats", has included suggestions that provide knowledgeable insight into where a good spot would be to achieve a desirable outcome for the majority. A few recent examples I have seen include the following:
Topic - issue - feedback - implemented changes - result

• Topic: Hardened Ward
• Issue: Too strong with the burst heal in PvP
• Feedback: (1) Change the burst heal to a heal over time OR
• Feedback: (2) Adjust the capacity to stack max magicka by changing the bound armor skill to give something else instead of max stats
• Implemented changes: Nerf to the burst heal of 33%
• Result: Ward is still very strong for what it provides, some of the peak potential has been removed, needs a bit more time to confirm if enough as conversations have been mixed since adjustment.

• Topic: Cloak
• Issue: Far too strong both offensively and defensively for how frequently it could be used in PvP
• Feedback: Give it a ramping cost to reign in how frequently and consistently it was being used while still keeping its power ceiling just like what was done to other utility abilities in the past.
• Implemented changes: made into a toggle, recovery reduced/disabled while active, toggle seems to make it stronger in some cases, but the recovery penalty seems to be very detrimental to those who were not abusing what caused issues with this ability.
• Result: Nobody was happy with the changes, NB mains complain about the change going to far, yet after testing it seems that the initial issues raised with the ability are still there.

• Topic: Organized groups in PvP
• Issue: Stacking multiple instances of same name group wide abilities, buffs and pull sets is too strong in PvP, while needed for PvE.
• Feedback: (1) Prevent buffs and effects with the same name from being stacked (applied via Battle Spirit)
• Feedback: (2) limit the amount of unique buffs that are available under a "blessing" named buff (applied via Battle Spirit)
• Implemented changes: N/A
• Result: Organized groups continue to terrorize PvP zones more and more as their counters keep getting removed and no changes made to that playstyle. leaving an ever dwindling playerbase that continues to abandon hope that anything will ever change.

As you can see from the few topics listed here, the feedback (all of which was provided by "sweats") was outlining an issue and providing feedback to provide a balanced outcome to said issue, while the implemented changes (if made) have either missed the mark or not touched on the issue at all.

A good example I mentioned in the past was in response to @ZOS_Kevin 's thread about feedback, was to have a look at GGG (guilty gear games, who make Path of Exile), they had a period of time in the past where they too made a very similarly unpopular game-wide balance adjustment similar to what ESO experienced in U35.
The main difference was one of their lead combat devs sat down with a large content creator, answering not just prepared questions, but questions asked in chat about the direction the game was taking, concerns about the changes, etc.
It took some time, and as always, a small minority of the community still weren't happy, but that open and honest dialogue calmed things down, allowing calmer minds to understand the reasons behind the changes, the concerns those changes raised and provided the opportunity for the players and devs to move forward in one direction. As a result, there is a lot more acceptance of changes within PoE and a lot of the changes being made are more in line with community expectation (while still following the devs desired goals for the game).

As I said on Kevin's post, I don't think players would expect a completely open and honest sit down like that to be the first thing that happens (although it would be amazing to see). But as was stated in the post I quoted above, having some form of open communication is key.
Examples being a pinned post about the intended goal of the more controversial changes that were made each patch, some questions/topics picked out by Jessica/Gina/Kevin from hot button topics on the forums are answered at the end of each week (or month) that the devs sit down and provide an answer for Kevin/Jessica/Gina to then include in a "weekly" (or monthly) round up pinned post here on the forums (or in a posted news article that is linked in a pinned thread here on the forums).

This does a few things:
1. It helps us players understand the vision for the game that the team has
2. It helps relay concerns the community has
3. It helps the team know the current hot button issues that need looking into

This results in a happier community, that is more understanding of big changes being made, that are also able to provide more in-depth constructive feedback and just a generally more friendly atmosphere that is more inviting for both the team and the community. Some proof of this is the comments from those who have met Brian or any member of the team in person and got to have a chat with them.

Of course there will always be those few who will not be constructive with their feedback. Those people will always exist and have always existed, the key is to ignore those people/comments (or moderate if they get really bad) and keep striving to engage with the majority who are trying to be constructive. The majority just want the game to be the best it can be, just like the team does.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

Read it all. Hopefully my post wasn't too long to read either and looking forward to more communication/interactions from/with the team.

kyle.wilson

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

Shouldn't a lead be competent in the content they lead?
How can you identify strengths and weaknesses if you don't have knowledge beyond a basic understanding?
I have long been suspicious of claims of playing in Cyrodiil and this proved it.

Thumbless_Bot

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

Respectfully, Brian is the lead combat designer, and the person in charge of PVP development. He doesn't need to be an excellent, or even a good PVP player - but the fact that he did not understand basic combat mechanics and was unable to answer combat related questions from Sypher is very concerning.

For example, sypher asked brian what was pulling and stunning them - and brian simply could not answer. Shouldn't the lead combat designer know which set does that, especially when that set is talked about DAILY as a pain point here on the forums? There are dozens of posts complaining about rush of agony, and brian not even recognizing it (while one of his teammates is also wearing it, by the way) is infuriating.

As far as combat goes, I won't nitpick his performance. Anyone with any experience whatsoever in PVP could watch his gameplay and make the assumption that he has never once touched PVP before, and I'd tend to agree with them.

Additionally, Brian said something along the lines of "I'm playing a tank just to annoy people in PVP", which is a sentiment he repeated multiple times throughout the stream. The forums are full of complaints about the current tank meta and issues surrounding cross healing. It has been the number one pain point for the majority of the playerbase going on years now. To hear the lead combat designer and head of PVP development repeatedly flaunt his enjoyment for "useless tank builds" because they "annoy people" is disgusting, to be frank. It is so far disconnected from the reality of what the players want, but indicates to us that the universally poorly received balance of the past year is in fact exactly what the lead combat designer has in mind for the future of this game.

Finally, the state of these battlegrounds is absolutely unacceptable. The fact that something like 40-50% of the games during yesterday's stream did not start due to a bug is just unbelievable. We went nearly 6 years without receiving any meaningful PVP content whatsoever. This was the first patch in 6 years where we expected to be delivered a functioning, enjoyable piece of PVP content - and the battlegrounds we received are the furthest thing from that. They are plagued with gamebreaking bugs in regards to starting, massive oversights in death/respawn mechanics as well as inactivity kicking, and possess a completely meaningless "competitive" leaderboard where you dominate simply by spamming heals and playing more than other people, not by performing well offensively or in regards to objectives. There was an enormous amount of feedback surrounding these problems on the PTS - which was patently ignored, as is seemingly the norm for our feedback as players.

Yes yes yessitty yes yes.

I've been preaching this stuff since u44 week one of pts. Maybe with someone more high profile saying this we will get some traction.... maybe

TechMaybeHic

So to summarize this "event", which just repeats the past PvP tension with devs

1. PvPers frustrated (of course)

2. ZOS representative benevolently puts themselves out in front of PvP community and says something anyone paying attention to the pvp community would know is polarizing to say the least

3. PvP community outcry. Some unfair, some very fair

4. ZOS response to apologize but ultimately focus on unfair responses and essentially threaten to pull back communication and flip blame on PvP community expectations, and nothing changes

5. Players white Knight to toxic argue while all in between inject self serving takes in the pvp thread where ZoS names actually made an appearance until it eventually fades

6. Return to step 1 of the cycle.

Until next time

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

In terms of general feedback It was quite disappointing to see that the one time we get a pvp focused stream it's a single unsupported dev without any of the pvp focused streamers there to co-present.
Compare this for example to the 'Tankxiety Tuesday' stream only a few days before, hosted by Gina (who has some experience of streaming at this point), a 'Tank expert' as he was introduced and additional ZOS employee. You took questions from chat, had a discussion section then 'showed off' gameplay. The thing that was actually good about this stream is the 'coaching' session from the community member to the ZOS employee. Whilst this 'tank' stream was clearly not aimed at 'endgame' tanks it shows some grasp of basic game mechanics which were lacking in the gameplay shown on the pvp stream.

Whilst it was obviously a good idea to get Sypher back as one of the most successful streamers who did used to once PVP but why not also have the other PVPers who were part of the event in the call too? they could answer questions, provide insight from a pvp perspective, offer additional camera views where the combat is shown off.

For me the biggest issue with the way that pvp has been presented to the community by ZOS for the past 8+years is basically as a place of shame for the team, it feels to the view that you never 'want' to engage or talk with the community.
Even the posts here instead of actually addressing the feedback is 75% focused on 'how feedback should be given in constructive ways' and that criticisms will just lead to less communication. I can tell you as a player who has attempted to give feedback in constructive ways for many years the communication doesn't feel like it can get much less when it comes to pvp and pvp combat, For example we're still waiting for an update on the data and information gained from the population tests almost a year later(December 2023) - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8012397/#Comment_8012397.


When it comes to the issues which were present in the stream & gameplay:
1. The queue system and games starting - It's been weeks since the launch and these problems were immediately noticed but the investigation is still ongoing and at this point you still have been unable to identify the cause?
2. The disconnection of the player leading to the pvp queue lockout
3. The gear and playstyles being used being some of the most complained about in the community (specifically rush of agony & tanks)
4. No chance for discussion with players to answer questions about the pvp direction and combat (something players have been crying out for for years).

It would be really nice to see more communication from the team and it would also lead to less hostile feedback from the community as players will feel like they don't need to make their feedback so strong if it is seen to be responded to more often.

@ZOS_Kevin
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

sarahthes

kyle.wilson wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, just wanted to follow up here. Normally, we do not leave threads open that specifically call out an individual dev team member. We will be editing the title for that reason. However, it seems like there is some constructive conversation here in this thread. So we want to make sure to keep constructive conversations around for us to reflect on later. All we ask is that those conversations try to address criticisms more generally, rather than at an individual team member. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open.

We do want to note the that Brian is not a rep for "sweaty PvP". He said that on the stream as well. He takes a more causal route now when he plays PvP himself. Also, part of the stream was meant to showcase that you don't have to be a sweat to jump into PvP. Brian's take on being more causal in PvP was meant to speak to that.

Also wanted to note that Brian was responsible for running the livestream and keeping things on track. If anyone has livestreamed before, you know there are a lot of moving parts to make sure things stay on track, so sometimes questions get missed. We're all human, so these things happen.

Just as a reminder, all we ask for this thread is to keep conversations and/or criticism more generally, rather than at a specific team member. We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds, livestreams showcasing content, and the PvP community in general. As along as we stay constructive, we can keep the thread open. Thanks for the feedback so far.

Shouldn't a lead be competent in the content they lead?
How can you identify strengths and weaknesses if you don't have knowledge beyond a basic understanding?
I have long been suspicious of claims of playing in Cyrodiil and this proved it.

He's management. For a game as big as ESO, and one where he's responsible for oversight of all combat related functions, I would not expect him to be able to memorize everything combat related or even play particularly well. He should be responsible for the big picture, with teams to focus on the details.

darvaria

I can't believe this video is real? Cringe. @SkaraMinoc made some really good comments. And I would have never seen it unless Skara posted here. You need to carefully consider everything @SkaraMinoc says. (and I don't know Skara at all and usually leave games if he is on opposite team and would most certainly leave with the score trends being as apparent in those games)

All I can say is now I don' feel so bad about my own game play. Yes, I usually tank up on a 58K health warden tank with nice heals, frost staff and use that repelling explosion script, the one with added charm. And am disappointed if I ever get medal scores less than 2k. I expect to be number 1 or 2 on medal scores. However, I sometimes get less by playing as a guard on flags instead of roving with group. I mostly play in the 8v8 so I'm not going up in MMR. I don't want to face off with sweats. But I am NOT in favor in reducing healing or tankiness. I've gotten used to this tanking way of PVP, have been doing it for years.

Constructive comments .... Send players in that actually know the current state of PVP. I admire the way you try to find something positive in these games. TBH, I usually leave if the games tilts in the direction of these games if I am on the 0 score team. One suggestion is to allow players to just concede and not have to get a deserter penalty in such games.

I only queue 4v4 by mistake so PLEASE make it where queue options don't reset. After seeing this, I'll make sure I just leave from now on if I accidentally queue 4v4. Seeing this video makes me committed to NEVER queue for a 4v4 and to desert if I find myself in such games. BTW, I win about 60-70% of games and if not a win a decent score with myself receiving 2K plus medal score. But I refuse to stay and help a team that has a 0 score or is behind 300 points.

About these maps, they give opportunity to run around LOS and meditate to full resources, so that is a plus for me since I am pushing medal score but not sure it is a plus for the game. More open fov maps?

Overall, very positive dialog during game. Don't think I could have sounded that positive. So cheers!

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

Poss

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc.

Then talk to us. There’s a section on the forums dedicated to PvP (which I’ve recently discovered has been further tucked away and took me forever to find) where Brian or any of the other devs can start a topic and find out what the PvP community wants and what the PvP community desperately needs. Hundreds of threads have been opened on the forums with people asking, begging and scratching their heads over the future of Cyrodiil and PvP in general and every single one of these has never received a meaningful answer from the dev team. Start a topic and ask for feedback and I guarantee avid PvPers will jump at the opportunity of an official line of communication.

You say we’re frustrated in your post. Heck yes we are. A lot of us have dedicated 10 years of our lives to this game and do not want to see this part of the game forgotten.

kyle.wilson

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

The dev team hasn’t been engaging on this forum in years.

ESO_Nightingale

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

I think a QnA is quite good but not by its lonesome. i've often felt that a lot of QnAs i've seen delivered from game development studios can tend to cherrypick questions they want to answer and it can sometimes feel like the responses are tonedeaf because of that. And i know from personal experience that when you don't see your question answered it feels bad. but i don't think that QnAs are a bad way to go as long as you're not only doing them as a means of communication.

I think directly answering questions and replying to combat issues for example, on the forums. is probably the best way to do it since it's very personal, but i don't think a QnA is a bad thing as long as it's a QnA directed towards a problematic area and takes some of those difficult questions.

tsaescishoeshiner

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

I can't speak for everyone, but I think website Q&As will let the conversation be the most constructed and focused. Regular Q&As posted to the website would address some community questions, although there will always be people who feel unheard (I don't know of a single game where there aren't many). In order to make the community feel heard, they might have to answer some unpopular questions (like, people are going to ask about Cyrodiil updates every time and come to the forums if they don't see an answer : p).

Reddit posts let upvoted comments and questions float to the top, which buries the rudest responses while highlighting what the players care about. So it can be a bit spicy and unpredictable, but better than the forums.

Forum Q&As give equal space to people who are raging and people who explain their critique in an engageable and good faith way. I think that overall makes the tone more aggressive and gives angry bad faith commenters a big platform to say something incendiary. It seems stressful and brings me down to scroll through it. (Not the critique part, the aggressive energy.)

Last choice would be a video where Pacrooti answers the questions while surrounded by puppies. And a free crate for everyone in the mail. And khajiit tail poof cosmetic. Ty.

Miracle19

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Honestly, it's no wonder the developers don't want to communicate with the community as freely if this is the kind of response they get — the community asks for open communication with the developers, only for the community to bash the developers for failing to meet the community's unrealistic expectations.


I know you all love this game (at least enough to make a forum account and use it) but the demographic on the forums is the exception in this case; it is hardly representative of the playerbase as a whole.

We do appreciate the dev team finally making an attempt to draw attention to the PVP side, as the game was originally intended.

The issues are simply not unrealistic and impossible. A lot of the issues stem from changes that are made within the game due to lack of understanding. Lack of understanding stems from NONE of the devs being endgame/godtier pvp’ers, so they don’t really understand compounding effects of simple nerfs or buffs. Also, when the community is significantly against a change or addition to the game, it goes ignored, added and ruins the experience for many, that also is a massive issue.

It is completely impossible for the pvp to ever meet community expectations without ZOS actually putting in the time and effort to be good and understanding of the game FIRST.

Unfortunately the enthusiast are fed up, as this game has a very unique combat system and has very high potential, that is only ruined by what it seems people who simply don’t care and collect a paycheck.

React

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

The Oldschool Runescape team hosts Q&A livestreams that are quite popular and well formatted. They first create a reddit post gathering questions for the livestream a few days ahead of time, so that they can go live with a list of points to address. On these data collection posts, they engage with commenters to clarify what they want to know specifically in regards to their questions. Throughout the stream as they address these points, they have an additional team member collect questions that are being asked frequently in chat, which are then presented to the caster(s) to be answered after the pre-collected points are finished.

I think where it would differ with ESO would be in the collection period, as there are a number of long standing and commonly discussed pain points that should take priority. These should be considered before general or fresh questions, to avoid having the community think that they're being avoided, which is a sentiment that has led to much of the mistrust present within the PVP community today.

Some of those being;

• Cross healing in PVP - Especially the nature of stacking 10+ stacks of the same morph HOTs, such as echoing vigor or radiating regen. There are many posts about this here. We don't even know whether or not this is gameplay that the combat team wants in the game - because they have never once commented on this.
• Cyrodiil/IC development - Are there plans for the future of our PVP zones? For several years we had the promise of a "code rewrite" that was supposed to remedy the performance issues in open world, and we were told that once this work was completed new content could be developed - but the last update we received was essentially that the project was being placed on hold. This obviously doesn't bode well for the future of cyrodiil.
• Effectiveness of buff sets in PVP - Primarily the effectiveness of building 12 man groups with modern group buff/support sets, where every single person has essentially emperor tier stats or better, often making them unstoppable without unreasonable overwhelming odds. There is simply not high enough population to stop groups with these levels of stats, especially when considering the aforementioned cross healing/shielding.
• Effectiveness of proc sets in PVP, as well as "free" damage - Back in the day when the Viper/Widow/Tremorscale meta was nerfed, we were told that proc sets were not what zenimax envisioned as being the main source of damage in PVP. We've once again reached a point where some of the most effective setups are once again stacking damage dealing procs, and where absurd amounts of damage are being generated through status effects alone.
• Unfinished Hybridization - there are many things that have yet to be hybridized, such as mundus stones, potions, class passive buffs, and a few other things I'm likely forgetting at the moment. Currently these things only serve to create inconvenient limitations to a system designed to encourage fluidity with build choices.
• Stuck in combat - We all know what this is. Rich Lambert stated in a reddit Q&A sometime last year that the team had been working on a fix for this, but that was the last we heard about it. Surely something can be said regarding this issue, which has plagued us for the better part of a decade?

I'm sure there are other major pain points that are pretty commonly discussed here.

EDIT: Just wanted to bring this up as a previous commenter had mentioned it, reddit can be tricky because of the upvote system hiding certain points while promoting others based on what the populous is feeling. Some companies have been switching to discord for this sort of thing, which in my opinion is a much better tool as it allows a greater degree of engagement and has various bots/functions that can be utilized to organize feedback and moderate out bad actors.

Miracle19

React wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

The Oldschool Runescape team hosts Q&A livestreams that are quite popular and well formatted. They first create a reddit post gathering questions for the livestream a few days ahead of time, so that they can go live with a list of points to address. On these data collection posts, they engage with commenters to clarify what they want to know specifically in regards to their questions. Throughout the stream as they address these points, they have an additional team member collect questions that are being asked frequently in chat, which are then presented to the caster(s) to be answered after the pre-collected points are finished.

I think where it would differ with ESO would be in the collection period, as there are a number of long standing and commonly discussed pain points that should take priority. These should be considered before general or fresh questions, to avoid having the community think that they're being avoided, which is a sentiment that has led to much of the mistrust present within the PVP community today.

Some of those being;

• Cross healing in PVP - Especially the nature of stacking 10+ stacks of the same morph HOTs, such as echoing vigor or radiating regen. There are many posts about this here. We don't even know whether or not this is gameplay that the combat team wants in the game - because they have never once commented on this.
• Cyrodiil/IC development - Are there plans for the future of our PVP zones? For several years we had the promise of a "code rewrite" that was supposed to remedy the performance issues in open world, and we were told that once this work was completed new content could be developed - but the last update we received was essentially that the project was being placed on hold. This obviously doesn't bode well for the future of cyrodiil.
• Effectiveness of buff sets in PVP - Primarily the effectiveness of building 12 man groups with modern group buff/support sets, where every single person has essentially emperor tier stats or better, often making them unstoppable without unreasonable overwhelming odds. There is simply not high enough population to stop groups with these levels of stats, especially when considering the aforementioned cross healing/shielding.
• Effectiveness of proc sets in PVP, as well as "free" damage - Back in the day when the Viper/Widow/Tremorscale meta was nerfed, we were told that proc sets were not what zenimax envisioned as being the main source of damage in PVP. We've once again reached a point where some of the most effective setups are once again stacking damage dealing procs, and where absurd amounts of damage are being generated through status effects alone.
• Unfinished Hybridization - there are many things that have yet to be hybridized, such as mundus stones, potions, class passive buffs, and a few other things I'm likely forgetting at the moment. Currently these things only serve to create inconvenient limitations to a system designed to encourage fluidity with build choices.
• Stuck in combat - We all know what this is. Rich Lambert stated in a reddit Q&A sometime last year that the team had been working on a fix for this, but that was the last we heard about it. Surely something can be said regarding this issue, which has plagued us for the better part of a decade?

I'm sure there are other major pain points that are pretty commonly discussed here.

RIP the balancer, Azureblight

Erickson9610

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

I received some very interesting answers during the Gold Road AUA regarding questions I had about Werewolf and its interaction with Scribing and Skill Styling. I'm really happy that I received such a thorough response, and it's given me hope for the future regarding my favorite playstyle.

I'd love to see another AUA hosted next year for next Chapter! It could answer any new questions that arise after we learn of that Chapter's major upcoming features.

fizzylu

gariondavey wrote: »

The Oldschool Runescape team hosts Q&A livestreams that are quite popular and well formatted.

For RuneScape, Jagex also does regular surveys that are sent out to players. These usually ask what activities they've been participating in and how much, what are some of their favorite parts of the game, what kind of features/content they want to see more of, etc.
I think one of my biggest problems with ESO is that a lot of the new content/changes we get doesn't seem to be what players actually want or ask for, and even worse, is not even shared with us until it's basically a finished product and being added to the game whether or not the majority like it/think it's good for the game (PTS especially feels like just a bug test when it comes to ESO). And while I understand we are not it's creators.... I do think the opinions, thoughts, and desires of players should be taken into account (and respected, since some devs of this game do have a tendency of acting like the players know nothing) when developing the product you expect those players to pay for and spend their time on. And that's very rarely felt like the case when it's come to this game, especially in recent years.

kiwi_tea

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Honestly, it's no wonder the developers don't want to communicate with the community as freely if this is the kind of response they get — the community asks for open communication with the developers, only for the community to bash the developers for failing to meet the community's unrealistic expectations.


I know you all love this game (at least enough to make a forum account and use it) but the demographic on the forums is the exception in this case; it is hardly representative of the playerbase as a whole.

I am not a hardcore PVP player (at least in my mind), but I do PVP quite a lot. The problem is that while some expectations were (and often are) totally out of proportion and unreasonable (expecting devs to perform at an extreme level), this was considerably below my pretty modest expectations. It was not "casual PVP" experience. I try to be a caring, nurturing presence in the PVP scene, but just based on the build alone I would be wracking my brain about how to tactfully and patiently explain why - even in flag games - a tank is a terrible idea in PVP and usually leaves your teammates desperately scrambling to make up for the loss of heals and damage in a whole player slot. If the other team are competent, they will simply ignore a tank until they have killed everyone else, so it's quite mean to jump into BGs on a tank because it almost always puts your teammates in a terrible 3v4 position. There are exceptions here, but they are vanishingly rare, and in Cyrodiil a tank can cause some chaos that is helpful to teammates.

Running a tank in BGs was lower than my reasonably low expectations. I don't expect devs to be doing crazy DPS, but if they've created this incredibly high proc damage and incredibly high healing meta for PVP, I *at base* expect them to be playing into it and showing us how they intend it to work.

Instead we saw a much-admired ex-ESO streamer struggling to play a meta that doesn't exist any longer, and feeling palpable disappointment about the direction that PVP has gone in since they left, while others ignored the basics of the meta entirely. I can see there was a noble attempt to play flag games how they were intended, but the meta is so heal and proc-bursty, that the intent behind the flag games doesn't match with the way that many people play.

You have matches where either all players are cross healing to the point they are barely killable, and everyone stalemates, or you have lobbies where only one player has a decent proc build and their peak DPS can rip through every other player in the lobby in way that no casual player can respond to. All the things that a casual player imagines might work - blocking, dodge-rolling, kiting, having high resistances and HP (but not high crit mitigation) - these are so depreciated as mechanics now. Also woefully depreciated are *almost all* sets, baring a tiny few, and including nearly every PVP-earned set. They are so totally depreciated in this meta - their cooldowns are all built around a PVP experience that doesn't exist - the one Sypher was nostalgic for. The Juggernaut set, for example, will never, ever, ever, ever save anyone in PVP. Not ever. Like the vast majority of sets, it's been taking up space for years without relevance but also without any attempt to adjust it to *have* a place.

It was strange reading the recent community post about set balance, because at every point where it described what devs wanted to avoid I thought: "Well, that's what has already happened in PVP for years now." We already *have* a PVP meta that is totally out of balance, powercrept, and where only an extremely small number of sets out of hundreds have much value.

In today's PVP meta three things matter in a really central way:

1. Stacking massive amounts of healing over time.
2. Having a huge proc burst that can kill someone faster than their heals over time can account for.
3. Positioning (eg, baiting people into bad positions, and not being baited yourself).

If you don't have these in place, you're already in deep, deep trouble. Nothing in the game prepares any players for this situation. They have no warning. They have no idea that their burst heals won't save them. They have no idea that bulk NEEDS to come for HoTs. There are no training wheels for PVP other than getting lucky and finding nice, patient guildmates. And to rub salt in that wound U50s is MORE expensive and punishing to play in as a new player than vet PVP is.

The impression I got from the stream is that even the devs may not fully understand what an unforgiving place for casual players they have made modern ESO PVP into. [Edit: Removed comments on a build in stream.]

Perhaps my expectations *are* unreasonable. I can't tell. PVP is a relatively small part of the player base, and unlikely to grow in its present state where there isn't any clear pipeline for new players to learn and enter an increasingly costly and high damage meta.

Estin

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

I know content creators don't speak for everyone, but they often do express similar concerns as forum or reddit posters, and I feel it could be beneficial to bring them in on a live Q&A. Some have been or are even currently on the ESO stream team, and there are some who've never been on it that are still good. Many of them have been playing for a long time and have a deep understanding of the game and can provide good insights even if they may have hard to answer questions. Private ones already take place at the in person events which are only once a year. Frequent public ones can help bridge the gap players feel like is missing.

Personofsecrets

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I'm disappointed by the communication regarding the PVP "game system" that I've specialized in, TOT.

We get 1 developer article when a new deck is released and that it. There was a single TOT stream to play community members that I know of and that was well over a year ago. I'm not even sure if @PinkApple got their prize.

That leaves a number of us to languish with a few issues that we'd like attention to; the working of the RNG system (it seems prone to not refreshing the RNG seed sufficiently between RNG events), a frurstrating leaderboard score system, and a number of cards that have poor balance.

This all becomes disappointing because I know that feedback is cherry picked even though nothing is ever actually discussed by design. Some obscure bugs and game mechanics have been changed since my making of a thread about them - that's cool to see. Myself and many other would appreciate an open discussion about these types of things, the designers vision, and maybe even what players can do to help. I've written on the forums multiple times that I can be freely contacted.

Balance is of special importance. It seems like that is the kind of feedback that isn't handled as well as it could be. Anyhow, I know that actual PVP completely overshadows my small section of the game, but it seems like they have a shared experience.