Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

StihlReign

If it's fair to associate a lead developer's involvement with their game's successes, then it must also be fair to associate a lead developer's involvement with their game's failures.

Combat is not in a good place right now and it hasn't been for years.

Yes, this game has generated over $2B, but that doesn't mean that everything in this game is fine. Our issues (the ones being presented in this thread) are not just in our heads. They exist and they've been ignored or exacerbated over the course of dozens of updates that further these frustrations.

I'll say again, if combat were fine, no one would have had an issue with the stream. But that's not how this went down, so here we are.

This quote is fair and accurate. I sincerely hope we haven't reached the moment in this discussion where we should lower our expectations significantly...

Time will tell.

Theist_VII

[snip]

Please for the love of all things ESO, make the skill worth using, I am so sick and tired of hearing my Templar friend complaining about it!

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

spartaxoxo

kiwi_tea wrote: »

I don't know if I want to live in a world where ChatGPT constructs our arguments for us.

I don't even think it got it 100% right and it is a little weird, but it is interesting to see how much it can do!

spartaxoxo

StarOfElyon wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.

The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.

The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.

The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.

Criticism is not bullying.

It is when it is destructive and unfair.

blktauna

When the next event of this sort comes out, it might be a good idea to not try and have one person do it all themselves.

Have an actual Master of ceremonies to keep the chat going, fill the chat when the players are concentrating, talk about what's happening and why. Maybe prepare a bit more beforehand with some strategies or some build commentary on what was chosen and why. Talk about the skills used and why. Discuss the maps and how to approach them. Maybe keep with your team more, and have players who are more familiar with the current BGs are working,

It was a fantastic idea and should continue.

Djennku

blktauna wrote: »

When the next event of this sort comes out, it might be a good idea to not try and have one person do it all themselves.

Have an actual Master of ceremonies to keep the chat going, fill the chat when the players are concentrating, talk about what's happening and why. Maybe prepare a bit more beforehand with some strategies or some build commentary on what was chosen and why. Talk about the skills used and why. Discuss the maps and how to approach them. Maybe keep with your team more, and have players who are more familiar with the current BGs are working,

It was a fantastic idea and should continue.

100% agree with this. I think with some adjustments, we could habe some great pvp streams in the future when learning from this one.

Onomog

blktauna wrote: »

When the next event of this sort comes out, it might be a good idea to not try and have one person do it all themselves.

Have an actual Master of ceremonies to keep the chat going, fill the chat when the players are concentrating, talk about what's happening and why. Maybe prepare a bit more beforehand with some strategies or some build commentary on what was chosen and why. Talk about the skills used and why. Discuss the maps and how to approach them. Maybe keep with your team more, and have players who are more familiar with the current BGs are working,

It was a fantastic idea and should continue.

Agree with all of this, and, frankly, it's what should have happened. I'm beginning to get a sneaking suspicion, however, that if they could have done it that way, they would have.

DemonicGoat

Wondering if this thread is gonna get forgotten or if were gonna get some official response on the very real problems with BGs/PVP that frankly are indicative of issues in the dev cycle.

A failure analysis might be prudent given this "new" feature apparently took 2 years to develop,barely works,seems unready and which has had a terrible reception.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom You said, "We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input" a week ago,
Any idea on when this will be?

StarOfElyon

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Wondering if this thread is gonna get forgotten or if were gonna get some official response on the very real problems with BGs/PVP that frankly are indicative of issues in the dev cycle.

A failure analysis might be prudent given this "new" feature apparently took 2 years to develop,barely works,seems unready and which has had a terrible reception.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom You said, "We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input" a week ago,
Any idea on when this will be?

Most likely January at the earliest.

kiwi_tea

StarOfElyon wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Wondering if this thread is gonna get forgotten or if were gonna get some official response on the very real problems with BGs/PVP that frankly are indicative of issues in the dev cycle.

A failure analysis might be prudent given this "new" feature apparently took 2 years to develop,barely works,seems unready and which has had a terrible reception.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom You said, "We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input" a week ago,
Any idea on when this will be?

Most likely January at the earliest.

Agreed. And there's no rush. Although I am pretty shocked that, thanksgiving not-withstanding, they haven't addressed the fact that people can force timeouts in BGs to troll teammates. It's such incredibly nasty behaviour to just leave in the game for so long, and in a flagship feature of the update.

ZOS_Kevin

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Wondering if this thread is gonna get forgotten or if were gonna get some official response on the very real problems with BGs/PVP that frankly are indicative of issues in the dev cycle.

A failure analysis might be prudent given this "new" feature apparently took 2 years to develop,barely works,seems unready and which has had a terrible reception.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom You said, "We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input" a week ago,
Any idea on when this will be?

This is still being worked on and it also needs to be translated so that other language speakers outside of English get this as well. We are hoping to have this up before the New Year. But it is in progress. I read a draft for it this morning.

Moonspawn

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Wondering if this thread is gonna get forgotten or if were gonna get some official response on the very real problems with BGs/PVP that frankly are indicative of issues in the dev cycle.

A failure analysis might be prudent given this "new" feature apparently took 2 years to develop,barely works,seems unready and which has had a terrible reception.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom You said, "We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input" a week ago,
Any idea on when this will be?

This is still being worked on and it also needs to be translated so that other language speakers outside of English get this as well. We are hoping to have this up before the New Year. But it is in progress. I read a draft for it this morning.

Balanced matches are the one thing that could draw in newcomers to become interested in PVP itself (not just the daily). But how can we ever have a proper MMR in a game where some are playing chess, while others a playing checkers?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/670165/battlegrounds-cycle-of-self-destruction#latest

Nothing needs to be thrown away. The pieces are already in place.

Sleepsin

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Wondering if this thread is gonna get forgotten or if were gonna get some official response on the very real problems with BGs/PVP that frankly are indicative of issues in the dev cycle.

A failure analysis might be prudent given this "new" feature apparently took 2 years to develop,barely works,seems unready and which has had a terrible reception.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom You said, "We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input" a week ago,
Any idea on when this will be?

This is still being worked on and it also needs to be translated so that other language speakers outside of English get this as well. We are hoping to have this up before the New Year. But it is in progress. I read a draft for it this morning.

We have had years of this, a promise to update a promise to communicate.

Aldoss

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Wondering if this thread is gonna get forgotten or if were gonna get some official response on the very real problems with BGs/PVP that frankly are indicative of issues in the dev cycle.

A failure analysis might be prudent given this "new" feature apparently took 2 years to develop,barely works,seems unready and which has had a terrible reception.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom You said, "We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input" a week ago,
Any idea on when this will be?

This is still being worked on and it also needs to be translated so that other language speakers outside of English get this as well. We are hoping to have this up before the New Year. But it is in progress. I read a draft for it this morning.

Thanks for the update Kevin.

Can we expect faster communication and updates once that thread gets published and the holidays are over? Will the article be discussing a timeline for correcting the issues presented in this thread?

gronoxvx

Imagine still working on communication 10 years into a game. Lol.

How about, i dunno, actually doing things the community has been requesting and providing feedback about for years compared to another poll or survey? Its not that hard.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hey all, we wanted to let you know we posted a follow-up over here to answer some questions and concerns from a few different discussion threads. Thank you.

OtarTheMad

gronoxvx wrote: »

Imagine still working on communication 10 years into a game. Lol.

How about, i dunno, actually doing things the community has been requesting and providing feedback about for years compared to another poll or survey? Its not that hard.

While I agree that communication shouldn’t still be an issue, ZOS does listen to feedback and makes changes. The recent Necro changes were due to feedback, the Arcanist nerfs, the content cadence was changed over feedback and will again because of it. Those are just some examples.

Just because they didn’t implement some feedback some people wanted does not mean they didn’t read it and take it into consideration.

If they do get better with communication like promised in 2025 then that would be amazing, because over the years silence, bad PR and weird decisions have made people leave more than the game itself. I didn’t stop playing because of the game, I stopped because of silence, bad moves by some devs here and wrong feedback getting classes nerfed and not fun to play.

Orbital78

getting dominated in one sided matches for 10 mins doesn't feel good, unsure how a novice pvp player is getting matched against youtube vet pvpers.

Parasaurolophus

A professional must have a good understanding of the things he works on.

OtarTheMad

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

A professional must have a good understanding of the things he works on.

Usually I would agree but ZOS has already said what happened with that, basically with all that was going on and all he had to control he missed some things. I tend to agree having watched it.

They probably should have had someone handling questions so the dev playing could focus.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, thank you for the additional replies - there are many good insights here. Increasing the amount of Q&As/AMAs we do, and adding more regular feedback surveys does seem doable. As Kevin touched on in this post earlier tonight, many of us are going to be out for Thanksgiving holiday, and we'll follow up when we return. We are making an effort to be here on the forums a bit more, and we don't want our lighter presence over the next week to send the wrong message. The Community team will still drop by as we're able in to check on things here. For those of you who celebrate, we hope you have a restful Thanksgiving with family and/or friends.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Has it been long enough after the thanksgiving holiday for the 'follow up when we return' to have occurred on some of the questions being asked both here and in other pvp related posts? Will we perhaps see an AMA or Q&A prior to the Christmas break?

DemonicGoat

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, thank you for the additional replies - there are many good insights here. Increasing the amount of Q&As/AMAs we do, and adding more regular feedback surveys does seem doable. As Kevin touched on in this post earlier tonight, many of us are going to be out for Thanksgiving holiday, and we'll follow up when we return. We are making an effort to be here on the forums a bit more, and we don't want our lighter presence over the next week to send the wrong message. The Community team will still drop by as we're able in to check on things here. For those of you who celebrate, we hope you have a restful Thanksgiving with family and/or friends.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Has it been long enough after the thanksgiving holiday for the 'follow up when we return' to have occurred on some of the questions being asked both here and in other pvp related posts? Will we perhaps see an AMA or Q&A prior to the Christmas break?

The impression I got was that this is the only followup we are going to get on this thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/670231/update-44-pvp-battlegrounds-follow-up/p1

StarOfElyon

Else gives his feedback and he's saying what I've been saying.

https://youtu.be/PuQe6ID_dBY?si=5MqcKrshHVDBbA3v

moderatelyfatman

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Else gives his feedback and he's saying what I've been saying.

https://youtu.be/PuQe6ID_dBY?si=5MqcKrshHVDBbA3v

And so another major content creator rides off into the sunset. So many in the last 2 years...

In similar news, I've watched Salty Naughty Sorc's videos for about 3 years and this BG video was the first time I'd ever heard him swear.

Erissime

OtarTheMad wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A chef's job is cooking. A video game developer's job is not playing PvP.

The bandwagon bullying of this dev really needs to stop. He isn't disrespecting you by not being as good at a video game as you want him to be. It's not his job to perform for our entertainment. It's not his job to play pvp at any particular skill level.

The complaints against the lack of care in Cyrodiil are valid.

The complaints about this dev not being good at PVP are not.

This. Agreed.

Doesn't matter if he's good... his job is development. A person who helps build a car can't drive like a professional stuntman right?

My understanding from it all resumed to these examples is something like : "A person who builds a car while doesn't necessarily needs to also know how to drive it, should at least know where the wheel is at". And from what I read people say there were basic skills the person didn't know about. Still none is relevant, and nobody really seems to bully the developer. At worst this I just stated as a bit of a question mark, because it begs to exist, yes?

But once more, I cannot have an actual opinion for never seeing the stream. I just read about that this might be the case, and while none of this is relevant, if any of this is true it does raise up the question about the game's development in a department in which many hold long-term complaints in general.

I do not think it was ever about the dev himself but about what he represents. And since people cry about the combat system in so many ways, this only comes to cement the idea that most of their cries are being ignored.

Aashiana

karthrag_inak wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We're taking feedback to the team for how we can better address Battlegrounds.

Easy answer, low hanging fruit. Bring back the 3-team bgs. Keep the current new ones too. See which get played more often, and have more balanced final scores.

I like this idea. I actually prefer the new BG formats. I like being able to choose 4x4 or 8x8. For less experienced players (which to be fair is most of the player base when it comes to PvP) the larger groups are really helpful to learn the ropes and find a way to be supportive even as a less skilled player. I and others that never did BGs in the past are trying them out and learning to like them. PvP should not just be for the top-tier players, but BGs have been unplayable for the rest of us for a long time. The old ones felt like a fish being thrown in among a bunch of sharks with no way to really learn, just die over and over. It's still sometimes like that, but at least you have a chance of joining a larger group with a mix of players and a chance to be a person that gets to carry one of the three relics to even learn how to use them, for example.

There's honestly too much catering to the very top tier of players, who are the ones mostly likely to complain on the forums. A lot of the positive changes I've seen this year - in overland, rewards, and other ways - are benefiting the vast majority of the player base. Giving us a chance to run in larger teams in PvP is another way to help us learn a new part of the game and maybe be good someday. Addressing the queue issues is obviously important but doing away with the larger groups is not the answer to fixing that problem.

It would be interesting to have both types of BGs available and see which ones different types of players like best.