Siege is overpowered vs. Players.

calikush51

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

El_Borracho

Nah. Lets focus on nerfing all sets into the ground before we go after other sources of damage. I hear Snake in the Stars is the new bane of Cyrodiil.

Silvains_Demon

I have never heard of this issue🤔. I guess it is time for research to look into it.

NordSwordnBoard

calikush51 wrote: »

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

Apart from lag/desync, siege should not be a problem for a solo player with situational awareness. Maybe take it as a compliment if a "large group" is scared to fight you without artillery & a wall to hide behind.

NotNi.ya

calikush51 wrote: »

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

i agree, as someone who plays solo in pvp, ive had full 12 man pug groups drop siege on me in a tower lol

if anything the damage should start out small then the more players that are in the aoe it should ramp up... i can only dream haha

calikush51

26k damage from someone afk on a ballista 50 meters away ruins pvp.

Durham

calikush51 wrote: »

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

Siege is slow and you can easily heal through it ... honestly its a joke!

Horny_Poney

The only issue with siege is that they don’t always display their AOE on the group and you end up dying over “nothing”.
Their damage is fine IMHO, it’s not supposed to be the hot water from the bath.

peacenote

Horny_Poney wrote: »

The only issue with siege is that they don’t always display their AOE on the group and you end up dying over “nothing”.
Their damage is fine IMHO, it’s not supposed to be the hot water from the bath.

I agree with this. It drives me nuts when it happens.

I am usually a solo or duo PVP-er (especially since group size dropped and it's harder to get a pick up group). I personally haven't found myself in a situation where I have felt that siege has ruined my gameplay or caused me to be particularly ineffective as a solo player, except for the problem when you have no idea that you're standing in it until you are already dead. I certainly haven't ever been in a situation where I as a solo player am attacking (say, trying to take a resource or something) and many players, all with siege, come out of nowhere and intervene unexpectedly focusing on me.

I have the opposite problem. Siege is so slow. It's so easy to forget to equip it in the quick slot and then only remember when you are in combat and it is too late. If I join a battle with more coordinated and experienced groups, as in a battle I stumble across as a solo player and try to help, they all know exactly where to put the siege where I struggle to be quick enough to plop it down not close enough to other siege or on flat territory. Sometimes if I am in a big battle with many people on each side, I get a chance to find a slot for siege and use it, but more often than not then I find it takes damage too quickly and melts away before I can do anything with it or the group has torn through the wall and my help is no longer needed.

Basically, I've never seen anyone gang up on me with siege as a solo player, but I've found it is not an agile, quick tool to use as a solo player. It's good in large battles in choke points where there are lots of players, not a few single ones.

That said, I would not consider myself an expert PvP player so perhaps others are better at setting it up quickly and targeting certain folks with it.

Silvains_Demon

Looking into it, 12 of anything would kill a solo PvPer. If you are going solo and 12+ people fire off the longest ranged shot ability from a bow, would any single target live through that? Sounds like a numbers issue, not a siege issue.

gamma71

Maybe we can just have a big pillow fight so nobody gets hurt

Oblivion_Protocol

calikush51 wrote: »

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

Fire a siege weapon into a ball group, then come back and tell me how the damage needs to be reduced. If anything, the damage needs to be boosted. As a solo player, I can dodge most siege. Whatever I don’t dodge, I can heal through. If I’m on my Magsorc, I can just stand under siege, spam Ward, and laugh.

If the problem is a large group, then I’m sorry, but they’d kill you as a solo player just fine without siege.

Urzigurumash

Coldfire Oils, when we gonna get em? And when I gonna be able to wear one on my head and dump it on my assailants

Nihilr

Siege is not the problem, it's HoTs and shields stacking with same-name abilities. If you die from a single siege you aren't building your character for PvP correctly or you don't try to get out of the danger zone fast enough. If you're complaining about 3 oils within 5 seconds, that's a character positioning mistake.

Tommy_The_Gun

Problem with PvP balance in general is that too little things scale with group size. Pale Order ring & Rallying Cry sets have something like this - the larger the group, the weaker those sets are.

I firmly believe that in order to balance out "mixed" PvP, something like this should have been added to battle spirit long time ago & should affect all aspects of the game (skills, passives, sets etc). So that certain things would work differently in different environment. That way we would not have issues with stacking same healing abilities or shields.

I do understand that organized group of players should be powerful & should be a force to be reckon with. The issue is that right now it is so far up ahead vs anything else that it kinda feels like some kind of god-mode cheat code lol.

M0ntie

calikush51 wrote: »

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

So what do you think should kill a solo player? Nothing?? That would be unbalanced.

Siege damage is about right IMO. A siege shield can protect a properly build PVP character from a good amount of siege. A big group with higher powered siege can damage through a siege shield and you need very strong healing/mitigation to withstand it. Again this is fair.

BetweenMidgets

I don't like the trend where if there are cross swords on the map, there is a specific segment of the "pvp" population that runs up just to put down siege.
Or the NBs that run into a opposing faction's keep / outpost just to put up oils. The moment you even look their direction they run. Legit ZERO pvp.

And some siege is a joke, yes. Ballista bolt? Who cares. But those cold stone trebs hit for over 25k, and sometimes their indicator doesn't show up on the ground.

I'm not sure why someone pointing and clicking should do more damage than my full timed rotation and ult dump.

BetweenMidgets

A portion of siege damage used to be blockable, too. Not anymore.

BXR_Lonestar

I'm honestly not trying to troll you here, but I definitely think something is more at play with this post than what you are letting on. Because in my experience, no group of player of any size will just drop seige to attack a single player out in the open field. That just doesn't happen.

Now, if you are a solo player trying to take a keep, that is probably something different, and you are definitely going to get some seige, but a keep/outpost are defensive structures that should be difficult to take if they're manned.

With that being said, my own experience has been that seige are just not strong enough. Try defending a keep with 12-15 people against a 50 man, and you will see exactly why I say that: players caught in a meatbag AoE only take around 5-6k damage per tick (and most usually have 35-40k health, so they can heal right up easily). Oils do 10k damage per tick, but its a fairly short lived dot and can be purged, so you have to literally stand in stupid (its a saying, don't be offended) to get killed by it, and you never get killed by just 1.

Firebolt balistas do pretty good damage, but often your target moves before the bolt arrives unless you ambush someone or they're not paying attention.

The only seige I know for SURE will wreck people's day almost instantly are coldfire balistas/trebuchets or lancers and they are much more rare than the other seige.

IMO, seige - especially the AOE seige (catapults of all varieties, oils, and elemental balistas) should get INCREASED damage to even the odds in those outnumbered situations.

Credible_Joe

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO, seige - especially the AOE seige (catapults of all varieties, oils, and elemental balistas) should get INCREASED damage to even the odds in those outnumbered situations.

Either that or add some kind of CC. Maybe even different types for each siege.

• Oil: snare
• Catapult: stun
• Ballista: knockback
• Trebuchet: stun AND knockback (good luck directly hitting players though)

That would discourage people from clustering together REAL quick.

TybaltKaine

It's a siege engine, for bringing down castle walls. Be grateful that they aren't one shot mechanics, cause realistically they should be.

fizl101

TybaltKaine wrote: »

It's a siege engine, for bringing down castle walls. Be grateful that they aren't one shot mechanics, cause realistically they should be.

I would be a Wile E Coyote splat if some machine flung a huge rock at me lol

Necrotech_Master

i generally find siege pretty underpowered, so many times i hit people with siege and it looks like it does little or nothing

the only times i usually kill people with siege is:

1. they are already squishy or have poor healing
2. they are getting hit from multiple angles (other players or other siege)
3. they are afk, dc'ing, or locked on their own siege and having lag issues leaving it

LPapirius

calikush51 wrote: »

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

Siege is not overpowered. If anything it should hit harder based on the size of the group being sieged. Something has to be done to make it easier to kill ball groups and the massive nerf to AB set is a move in the wrong direction for sure.

Necrotech_Master

Credible_Joe wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO, seige - especially the AOE seige (catapults of all varieties, oils, and elemental balistas) should get INCREASED damage to even the odds in those outnumbered situations.

Either that or add some kind of CC. Maybe even different types for each siege.

• Oil: snare
• Catapult: stun
• Ballista: knockback
• Trebuchet: stun AND knockback (good luck directly hitting players though)

That would discourage people from clustering together REAL quick.

oil catapults can do a snare and stam drain, but their dmg is super slow

lightning ballista reduce mag and mag recov, but again dmg is extremely low

the problem with a lot of those "utility" sieges is that their dmg is extremely low, and a lot of people utilize them incorrectly which further magnifies the ineffectiveness

the other problem with the snare on the oil catapult is that its purgeable so anyone with snow treaders is basically immune to it

RaidingTraiding

When a small to medium size group can't siege an outpost because of 2 or 3 people rotating a crazy amount of oils, i think thats a bit overtuned, especially with the invisible oil bug. heck i've even seen ball groups who can't outheal siege, so how do you expect anyone else to? I don't think it's healthy to need an entire faction stack to take a keep that has a half way decent amount of counter siege defending. This kind of playstyle shouldn't be rewarded either. Often times I find that if you do manage to get inside a keep all the counter siegers just bail, if they have anything short of a faction stack. So you end with no real pvp. Also on the other end, if you're defending a keep you get people who countersiege you from the outer walls. So basically they can just siege you as much as they like because siege can hit just about anywhere inside a keep while they are in no danger themselves. Now siege will be even more overtuned with this new set and they can know exactly where to hit you if you're in a keep:

5 – While you are using a non-Ram Siege Weapon, you are immune to knockback and disabling effects, you reduce your damage taken by 33%, and you can see enemies through walls.

That's a pretty loaded set for a point and click playstyle that already does an insane amount of damage. Any other game seeing through walls like that would be considered a hack lol. And this is really only good for counter siege. If you're attacking a keep, you want to actually use real sets because you still need to clear players off flags so you need a set that works off siege to do that. Counter siegers only sit on siege so this always helps them. A lot of these players don't even engage in keep takes, they just sit on the walls waiting for someone to come so they can set up their siege. I mean some will sit there and would rather point there siege at you and wait for it to turn when you get in melee range, rather than get off and fight. Probably because they don't have a real build or know how to use actual skills on their bar. But I guess this is the target audience now. Cyrodiil the way it's meant to be played. Should just disable all skills while they're at it.

Iriidius

Should remember that siege is used not only by 12 players to kill 1 tower 1vXer but also by 1 player to kill 12 players sieging a keep of his faction when going down and fight them 1v12 would be suicide and he would otherwise just (have to) leave. This is actually more common and intended use of siege.
Flat nerf to siege should not be used to prevent sieging 12v1 but rather give solo players tools to survive that.
Sieging groups of tower trolls and ballgroups is fair game as they are farming and often Xv1 focussing unorganized players barely outnumbering them if at all.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

calikush51 wrote: »

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

Apart from lag/desync, siege should not be a problem for a solo player with situational awareness. Maybe take it as a compliment if a "large group" is scared to fight you without artillery & a wall to hide behind.

Than solo players get complimented pretty often because groups will use siege not only desperately as last resort but at first choice to kill solo players they do not have to fight at all. That doesnt prevent them from later disrespect them.

Silvains_Demon wrote: »

Looking into it, 12 of anything would kill a solo PvPer. If you are going solo and 12+ people fire off the longest ranged shot ability from a bow, would any single target live through that? Sounds like a numbers issue, not a siege issue.

Except that 12 arrows from 12 bad archers would probably not hit a moving single target without autoaim IRL or if the player dodges them all or runs around a tower where you cant hit them with it. Still on open field 12 Snipers will kill a single player pretty fast.
12 players usually still kill 1 player in tower after short time but setting up a coldfire in a tower and shoot him when he comes around the edge can end some 1vX that otherwise would have continued. That solo players in 1v12 die pretty fast normally doesnt mean nothing can make it worse.

M0ntie wrote: »

calikush51 wrote: »

Large groups sieging solo players kills fun in this game. Siege damage needs to be reduced against players.

So what do you think should kill a solo player? Nothing?? That would be unbalanced.

Siege damage is about right IMO. A siege shield can protect a properly build PVP character from a good amount of siege. A big group with higher powered siege can damage through a siege shield and you need very strong healing/mitigation to withstand it. Again this is fair.

There are already enaugh things that kill solo players, when you enter Cyrodiil solo you are already dead.
Siege shield is not really useable solo because it is too expensive and you do need every slot. It is a tool that helps groups siege a keep which is exactly the situation defensive siege is created for.
It should get s solo morph that also gives you something else to make it worth slotting.

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

When a small to medium size group can't siege an outpost because of 2 or 3 people rotating a crazy amount of oils, i think thats a bit overtuned, especially with the invisible oil bug. heck i've even seen ball groups who can't outheal siege, so how do you expect anyone else to? I don't think it's healthy to need an entire faction stack to take a keep that has a half way decent amount of counter siege defending. This kind of playstyle shouldn't be rewarded either. Often times I find that if you do manage to get inside a keep all the counter siegers just bail, if they have anything short of a faction stack. So you end with no real pvp. Also on the other end, if you're defending a keep you get people who countersiege you from the outer walls. So basically they can just siege you as much as they like because siege can hit just about anywhere inside a keep while they are in no danger themselves. Now siege will be even more overtuned with this new set and they can know exactly where to hit you if you're in a keep:

5 – While you are using a non-Ram Siege Weapon, you are immune to knockback and disabling effects, you reduce your damage taken by 33%, and you can see enemies through walls.

That's a pretty loaded set for a point and click playstyle that already does an insane amount of damage. Any other game seeing through walls like that would be considered a hack lol. And this is really only good for counter siege. If you're attacking a keep, you want to actually use real sets because you still need to clear players off flags so you need a set that works off siege to do that. Counter siegers only sit on siege so this always helps them. A lot of these players don't even engage in keep takes, they just sit on the walls waiting for someone to come so they can set up their siege. I mean some will sit there and would rather point there siege at you and wait for it to turn when you get in melee range, rather than get off and fight. Probably because they don't have a real build or know how to use actual skills on their bar. But I guess this is the target audience now. Cyrodiil the way it's meant to be played. Should just disable all skills while they're at it.

Counter siegers avoid fighting your faction stack unless they have faction stack themselve sounds pretty normal to me, getting zerged down is fun for nobody including them.
PvDooring in Cyrodiil is much to common and needs more insteat of less counterplay. Very often you have noone defending because siege will still not kill anyone in zerg using siege shield and crosshealing despite siege beeing created to fight big groups.
A keep should be defendable by outnumbered defenders like it also was IRL to give outnumbered players also a few victorys/kills rather than gettingoverrun every fight and a reason not to quit PvP.

Zama666

No, it's fine, leave it.

FlopsyPrince

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I don't like the trend where if there are cross swords on the map, there is a specific segment of the "pvp" population that runs up just to put down siege.
Or the NBs that run into a opposing faction's keep / outpost just to put up oils. The moment you even look their direction they run. Legit ZERO pvp.

And some siege is a joke, yes. Ballista bolt? Who cares. But those cold stone trebs hit for over 25k, and sometimes their indicator doesn't show up on the ground.

I'm not sure why someone pointing and clicking should do more damage than my full timed rotation and ult dump.

Can NBs go into opposing faction castles before the walls or gates come down?

Necrotech_Master

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I don't like the trend where if there are cross swords on the map, there is a specific segment of the "pvp" population that runs up just to put down siege.
Or the NBs that run into a opposing faction's keep / outpost just to put up oils. The moment you even look their direction they run. Legit ZERO pvp.

And some siege is a joke, yes. Ballista bolt? Who cares. But those cold stone trebs hit for over 25k, and sometimes their indicator doesn't show up on the ground.

I'm not sure why someone pointing and clicking should do more damage than my full timed rotation and ult dump.

Can NBs go into opposing faction castles before the walls or gates come down?

the only ones who get into a keep before walls are down are either people who were there when the walls were down and just stayed hidden, or people finding exploits to get into a keep without sieging (long jumping mounts in certain areas, certain skills that can make someone appear on the other side of a door)

FlopsyPrince

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I don't like the trend where if there are cross swords on the map, there is a specific segment of the "pvp" population that runs up just to put down siege.
Or the NBs that run into a opposing faction's keep / outpost just to put up oils. The moment you even look their direction they run. Legit ZERO pvp.

And some siege is a joke, yes. Ballista bolt? Who cares. But those cold stone trebs hit for over 25k, and sometimes their indicator doesn't show up on the ground.

I'm not sure why someone pointing and clicking should do more damage than my full timed rotation and ult dump.

Can NBs go into opposing faction castles before the walls or gates come down?

the only ones who get into a keep before walls are down are either people who were there when the walls were down and just stayed hidden, or people finding exploits to get into a keep without sieging (long jumping mounts in certain areas, certain skills that can make someone appear on the other side of a door)

That is what I thought. The reply indicated otherwise so I wondered.