Siege is overpowered vs. Players.

RaidingTraiding

Iriidius wrote: »

PvDooring in Cyrodiil is much to common and needs more insteat of less counterplay. Very often you have noone defending because siege will still not kill anyone in zerg using siege shield and crosshealing despite siege beeing created to fight big groups.
A keep should be defendable by outnumbered defenders like it also was IRL to give outnumbered players also a few victorys/kills rather than gettingoverrun every fight and a reason not to quit PvP.

The problem with that is these "outnumbered players" will bail when the opposite side get inside. You can't successfully fight outnumbered in those situations relying on siege alone which is what these players want. A good majority from what I've seen have no intention of ever using the skills on their bars. I'm a big supporter of fighting outnumbered, I just don't think siege is the way to go about it, nor should it be.

The specific scenario I had in mind in my first comment was taking a group to an outpost with the intention of capturing it to generate outnumbered fights. Like actual pvp not siege v siege. In a lot of those cases having a few people defending with oils makes it nearly impossible to take it with a smaller group. If you want to take it you would actually need a bigger group with a ton more heals. You shouldn't need a zerg, ball group, or faction stack to take an outpost defended by a few people. And who's to say you're not trying to take it from the faction that's pvdooring and zerging the hardest. Sometimes you may be getting gated and find that taking an outpost rather than a keep appears to be the easier task.

Again it just seems crazy to me that people think siege which does way more damage than ults (with a bigger radius too) and can be fired every few seconds or constantly if you have multiple siege on rotation is balanced. Oils and meatbags also put a defile on you that's greater than any player or set sourced debuff in the game.

CatoUnchained

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

PvDooring in Cyrodiil is much to common and needs more insteat of less counterplay. Very often you have noone defending because siege will still not kill anyone in zerg using siege shield and crosshealing despite siege beeing created to fight big groups.
A keep should be defendable by outnumbered defenders like it also was IRL to give outnumbered players also a few victorys/kills rather than gettingoverrun every fight and a reason not to quit PvP.

The problem with that is these "outnumbered players" will bail when the opposite side get inside. You can't successfully fight outnumbered in those situations relying on siege alone which is what these players want. A good majority from what I've seen have no intention of ever using the skills on their bars. I'm a big supporter of fighting outnumbered, I just don't think siege is the way to go about it, nor should it be.

The specific scenario I had in mind in my first comment was taking a group to an outpost with the intention of capturing it to generate outnumbered fights. Like actual pvp not siege v siege. In a lot of those cases having a few people defending with oils makes it nearly impossible to take it with a smaller group. If you want to take it you would actually need a bigger group with a ton more heals. You shouldn't need a zerg, ball group, or faction stack to take an outpost defended by a few people. And who's to say you're not trying to take it from the faction that's pvdooring and zerging the hardest. Sometimes you may be getting gated and find that taking an outpost rather than a keep appears to be the easier task.

Again it just seems crazy to me that people think siege which does way more damage than ults (with a bigger radius too) and can be fired every few seconds or constantly if you have multiple siege on rotation is balanced. Oils and meatbags also put a defile on you that's greater than any player or set sourced debuff in the game.

What role do you think siege weapons should play in ESO exactly then? If using them to defend and keeps in every way possible what would we use siege weapons for exactly? And once a keep is flagged players only get one rez at a camp every 5 min, so once the keep is flagged it makes more sense to fight from safety, doesn't it?

kringled_1

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

I don't like the trend where if there are cross swords on the map, there is a specific segment of the "pvp" population that runs up just to put down siege.
Or the NBs that run into a opposing faction's keep / outpost just to put up oils. The moment you even look their direction they run. Legit ZERO pvp.

And some siege is a joke, yes. Ballista bolt? Who cares. But those cold stone trebs hit for over 25k, and sometimes their indicator doesn't show up on the ground.

I'm not sure why someone pointing and clicking should do more damage than my full timed rotation and ult dump.

Can NBs go into opposing faction castles before the walls or gates come down?

the only ones who get into a keep before walls are down are either people who were there when the walls were down and just stayed hidden, or people finding exploits to get into a keep without sieging (long jumping mounts in certain areas, certain skills that can make someone appear on the other side of a door)

That is what I thought. The reply indicated otherwise so I wondered.

I think you misunderstood the post in question. That person was complaining from the point of view of an attacker about defenders who won't fight in open field and will just run to a keep to do defensive siege.

robpr

Siege is fine, if not underpowered with all amount of shielding and crosshealing everybody run nowadays. If you ban defenders from using siege they will stand on walls and shoot you with bows. Nothing gonna change. Siege is at least interesting and valid way to get rid of tower huggers or uncoordinated groups from keeps.

MISTFORMBZZZ

Siege weapons should only work inside keeps aswell and the damage of oil and coldfire should be nerfed.

Alone the fact zos is releasing a siege set, is proving that siege is out of controll.

SkaraMinoc

Siege needs to scale based on the number of players hit. Solo players should take less damage and groups should take more damage. Siege is basically useless against groups right now.

Bammlschwamml

A couple of years ago i enjoyed playing tower defense games for a while. Since then i wanted to be part of a siege focused coordinated group in Cyrodiil. Just for fun. Defending keeps with well placed and timed combinations of different siege weapons. Blowing up noob farming bully groups, tank zergs, tower trolls etc.

But somehow siege weapons are "uncool" for most players, and i never found a group (or guild) that tried to really coordinate siege. Unfortunately you get a lot of hate whispers for using cold fire and lancers. Even using oils and meatbags is enough to make some players angry. I guess coordinating siege well enough to kill the "really good players and groups" would make them hate and bully you forever.

And it's rare to have epic fights over keeps anyway. Massive battles with a lot of siege and counter siege. Where an alliance actually has to open a second wall or something. It's kind of a miracle when an alliance is able to hold a door for more than a minute nowadays. For me this is wasted potential, like so many other things in Cyrodiil.

First the performance issues, disconnects etc. made people not want to participate in big fights anymore. And now the extremely low population basically killed the war forever. At least on some platforms, primetime now is like a soccer game with 5 players total, and a potato instead of a ball, when it could have been world cup finals every day.

This game could be so much more interesting, if we had enough players to have all kinds of different playstyles on the map at the same time. But now one small group can flip and hold the entire map. 2 youtubers can hold an enemy home keep all day. That's not a game i enjoy playing anymore.

Please fix the pop cap, performance and bugs instead of reducing Cyrodiil to an oversized duel finder...

Iriidius

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Siege weapons should only work inside keeps aswell and the damage of oil and coldfire should be nerfed.

Alone the fact zos is releasing a siege set, is proving that siege is out of controll.

limiting siege to work only inside keeps and still nerfing coldfire and oil dmg when used there in its intended way is too much and make it completely useless.

ZOS releasing a siege set is proving nothing, they can also release sets for balanced, niche or non existant playstile.
Elfbane was much more useful when it increased coldfire and oil duration than Siege set will be, this set is not worth using even when sieging for anyone other than total noobs because you could still get in a fight where you need fight with your skills and cant use siege when a enemy player reaches you.

Iriidius

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Siege needs to scale based on the number of players hit. Solo players should take less damage and groups should take more damage. Siege is basically useless against groups right now.

Groups still often will not have more than 1 player in siege radius because they have to spread to use ballistae as you cant place them too near or on top of each other.
Before reworking siege making it scale they should rework siege shield which currently favors stacks.
Siege shield is most effektive placed on ram, open gates, breaches or other locations where players stack and mainly used by PvDoor Zerg(ling)s as it does not fit on the bar of a solo player or real PvPer or anyone who who also does other things than PvDooring.
Should rather be a solo buff or have a solomorph that also gives other things a solo player needs allowing them to replace another skill.

The_Meathead

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Siege needs to scale based on the number of players hit. Solo players should take less damage and groups should take more damage. Siege is basically useless against groups right now.

I don't even know that it needs to do less against solo players, but an increase against a group would be wonderful.

Ball Groups shrug off multiple hits at once right now, and that shouldn't be a thing. There needs to be a counter and Sieges should provide it, particularly as hard as it is to land several at once on them as they zoom around unhindered by CC.

I'd also love if one of the Morphs of Caltrops had some extra oomph against groups wearing Snow Treaders somehow.

Iriidius

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

PvDooring in Cyrodiil is much to common and needs more insteat of less counterplay. Very often you have noone defending because siege will still not kill anyone in zerg using siege shield and crosshealing despite siege beeing created to fight big groups.
A keep should be defendable by outnumbered defenders like it also was IRL to give outnumbered players also a few victorys/kills rather than gettingoverrun every fight and a reason not to quit PvP.

The problem with that is these "outnumbered players" will bail when the opposite side get inside. You can't successfully fight outnumbered in those situations relying on siege alone which is what these players want. A good majority from what I've seen have no intention of ever using the skills on their bars. I'm a big supporter of fighting outnumbered, I just don't think siege is the way to go about it, nor should it be.

The specific scenario I had in mind in my first comment was taking a group to an outpost with the intention of capturing it to generate outnumbered fights. Like actual pvp not siege v siege. In a lot of those cases having a few people defending with oils makes it nearly impossible to take it with a smaller group. If you want to take it you would actually need a bigger group with a ton more heals. You shouldn't need a zerg, ball group, or faction stack to take an outpost defended by a few people. And who's to say you're not trying to take it from the faction that's pvdooring and zerging the hardest. Sometimes you may be getting gated and find that taking an outpost rather than a keep appears to be the easier task.

Again it just seems crazy to me that people think siege which does way more damage than ults (with a bigger radius too) and can be fired every few seconds or constantly if you have multiple siege on rotation is balanced. Oils and meatbags also put a defile on you that's greater than any player or set sourced debuff in the game.

Seems like you are a smallscale which is only a few people yourself so what makes you think you should be able to take a keep/outpost that is intended to give defenders a big advantage while it is defended by a few people which are not even outnumbered by your few people?

Stridig

I see "organized groups" stand in oils and siege as if it didn't exist every time I'm in Cyrodiil. It literally has zero impact on certain groups.

Joy_Division

Stridig wrote: »

I see "organized groups" stand in oils and siege as if it didn't exist every time I'm in Cyrodiil. It literally has zero impact on certain groups.

The 8 forgive players that use their abilities not to automatically die to iventory tiems.

I don't need a ball group. As a solo player, if I get hit with a seige weapon, I will heal, shield, cleanse, etc. myself and not die.

PvP can be frustrating in that human opponents dont act like NPCs and not just keel over and automatically die when players press a button

Stridig

Joy_Division wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I see "organized groups" stand in oils and siege as if it didn't exist every time I'm in Cyrodiil. It literally has zero impact on certain groups.

The 8 forgive players that use their abilities not to automatically die to iventory tiems.

I don't need a ball group. As a solo player, if I get hit with a seige weapon, I will heal, shield, cleanse, etc. myself and not die.

PvP can be frustrating in that human opponents dont act like NPCs and not just keel over and automatically die when players press a button

I know. I was simply saying it's not overpowered from my point of view. Most people can survive it while some groups don't even know it's there

argonian37

Mmm sorry but no. Siege is not overpowered at all. In fact is a joke that every player can spam heals and survive a siege attack. Siege should be at least 3 times more destructive, fearsome and should be much more expensive. It should allow to destroy all type of building, like towers and it should be a complete game changer in a battle. Actually, It should punish groups and escalate dmg with chain proximity like plaguebreak to counter ball groups in a proper way. Is artillery, is a war game, please stop asking for nerfs to every mech of the game that kills

Rohamad_Ali

Bring back ground oils please.

Jman100582

Do you know what actually kills you? It’s not the damage…half the time it’s the siege debuffs themselves. For example meatbag ballistas apply a (I believe) 30% healing debuff. And scatter shots apply a 30% increases dmg taken bonus. And these stack as well, for each siege aoe you stand in. A lot of the unique debuffs in pvp (guard impale debuff, archer guard snipe defile, various siege debuffs) are still in line with the old 15/30% minor/major buff system and still haven’t been adjusted. So when you do inevitably get hit by siege there is very little room for counter play. There are times you simply can’t avoid the dmg, for whatever reason. Siege and guard debuffs need to be adjusted, and have needed adjusted but just fly under the radar cuz most players don’t understand how strong they really are. Also, pls get negate off mage guards. They spam it through walls and ignore line of sight (I’ve been negated from a guard from the bottom floor of a corner tower while sitting on top tower)

YandereGirlfriend

Jman100582 wrote: »

Do you know what actually kills you? It’s not the damage…half the time it’s the siege debuffs themselves. For example meatbag ballistas apply a (I believe) 30% healing debuff. And scatter shots apply a 30% increases dmg taken bonus. And these stack as well, for each siege aoe you stand in. A lot of the unique debuffs in pvp (guard impale debuff, archer guard snipe defile, various siege debuffs) are still in line with the old 15/30% minor/major buff system and still haven’t been adjusted. So when you do inevitably get hit by siege there is very little room for counter play. There are times you simply can’t avoid the dmg, for whatever reason. Siege and guard debuffs need to be adjusted, and have needed adjusted but just fly under the radar cuz most players don’t understand how strong they really are. Also, pls get negate off mage guards. They spam it through walls and ignore line of sight (I’ve been negated from a guard from the bottom floor of a corner tower while sitting on top tower)

Indeed. Would love to have a game-wide audit that removed all of the deprecated and broken skills that NPCs are still using. They were designed in 2013 and yet here we are in nearly 2025. The game balance has moved on and those abilities and debuffs no longer make any semblance of sense.

Joy_Division

Jman100582 wrote: »

Siege and guard debuffs need to be adjusted, and have needed adjusted but just fly under the radar cuz most players don’t understand how strong they really are. Also, pls get negate off mage guards. They spam it through walls and ignore line of sight (I’ve been negated from a guard from the bottom floor of a corner tower while sitting on top tower)

Now we are complaining about guards? Really? PvDooring is now too difficult? Move out of the Negate.

Jman100582

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Siege and guard debuffs need to be adjusted, and have needed adjusted but just fly under the radar cuz most players don’t understand how strong they really are. Also, pls get negate off mage guards. They spam it through walls and ignore line of sight (I’ve been negated from a guard from the bottom floor of a corner tower while sitting on top tower)

Now we are complaining about guards? Really? PvDooring is now too difficult? Move out of the Negate.

Guard ai shouldn’t ignore line of sight, and they DEFINITELY shouldn’t be able to spam an ultimate. If you are inside a keep, transit guards can negate you when you’re all the way on the top floor. Archer guard defile stacking is ridiculous, guard impale debuff is a ridiculous increase damage taken. When I’m solo in a tower, I HAVE to kill guards before I kill players because they are THAT grief and annoying. I’ve been chain spammed and pulled through walls by guards. I’ve been multi negated by guards. That type of stuff just shouldn’t be happening tbh

YandereGirlfriend

Jman100582 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Siege and guard debuffs need to be adjusted, and have needed adjusted but just fly under the radar cuz most players don’t understand how strong they really are. Also, pls get negate off mage guards. They spam it through walls and ignore line of sight (I’ve been negated from a guard from the bottom floor of a corner tower while sitting on top tower)

Now we are complaining about guards? Really? PvDooring is now too difficult? Move out of the Negate.

Guard ai shouldn’t ignore line of sight, and they DEFINITELY shouldn’t be able to spam an ultimate. If you are inside a keep, transit guards can negate you when you’re all the way on the top floor. Archer guard defile stacking is ridiculous, guard impale debuff is a ridiculous increase damage taken. When I’m solo in a tower, I HAVE to kill guards before I kill players because they are THAT grief and annoying. I’ve been chain spammed and pulled through walls by guards. I’ve been multi negated by guards. That type of stuff just shouldn’t be happening tbh

Not to mention the deprecated Chains that the guards have have like a 75% chance to bug-out and do the slow-mo pull that is basically a guaranteed death because you're locked-out of doing anything for like four consecutive GCDs.

The_Meathead

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

Siege and guard debuffs need to be adjusted, and have needed adjusted but just fly under the radar cuz most players don’t understand how strong they really are. Also, pls get negate off mage guards. They spam it through walls and ignore line of sight (I’ve been negated from a guard from the bottom floor of a corner tower while sitting on top tower)

Now we are complaining about guards? Really? PvDooring is now too difficult? Move out of the Negate.

Guard ai shouldn’t ignore line of sight, and they DEFINITELY shouldn’t be able to spam an ultimate. If you are inside a keep, transit guards can negate you when you’re all the way on the top floor. Archer guard defile stacking is ridiculous, guard impale debuff is a ridiculous increase damage taken. When I’m solo in a tower, I HAVE to kill guards before I kill players because they are THAT grief and annoying. I’ve been chain spammed and pulled through walls by guards. I’ve been multi negated by guards. That type of stuff just shouldn’t be happening tbh

Not to mention the deprecated Chains that the guards have have like a 75% chance to bug-out and do the slow-mo pull that is basically a guaranteed death because you're locked-out of doing anything for like four consecutive GCDs.

I can't help it.

Even when those get me pounded, I kinda laugh because they're SO. INCREDIBLY. SLOOOOOOW.