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Nightblade changes
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DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.
Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:StaticWave wrote: »And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.
I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.
I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.
Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.
And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.DrSlaughtr wrote: »No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.
Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.DrSlaughtr wrote: »"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.
This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.DrSlaughtr wrote: »3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.
??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.
You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.DrSlaughtr wrote: »5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.
Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.
It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.
Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.
But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...
Just a note on this from personal experience. Spamming reveals is fairly useless when your opponent either has good damage, is somewhat competent, or both.
With movement speed and healing being what they are a NB can easily move in and out of detection range and create time to beat the reveal cool down without much issue. The other problem is that they can reposition to a favorable spot after going past the reveal cool down and hit you with another attack even as you have revealed them.
I've spoken out before that the options do work however it should be noted that in the current environment they start to be a lot less potent when your enemy has speed, healing, and understands how to use one or both.
While pots are most reliable the duration can easily be gotten around by someone that knows how to use the above stated well.
Everything you described is a player doing a good job at running their class, which is not a valid reason to reduce their ability to do so. Most things have counters in this game, and it seems like some players like this until what they are doing has a counter. In this case, you hit a detect pot. I don't stand in front of you like a silly goose so you can kill me. You try to chase. I move faster because I sacrificed damage or survivability to move faster than you.
I see NBs die every session. I die sometimes. It usually is because I made a mistake and the other person capitalized, which is pretty much how most fights end. I don't see what the problem is here. Honestly, everyone should be glad there are so many counters to nightblades, because it's a little hypocritical considering that no other class faces such limitations. So rather than enjoying the fact you have direct counters to various aspects of NB play, players complain that there are not even more, or the ones they have aren't overpowered enough.
It just seems silly to me.I drink and I stream things.4 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »NB mains: heh....only inexperienced nbs spam cloak
also NB mains: but, but, but with a toggle, how will I be able to spam cloak?
Too bad nbs spent all pts complaining about the toggle they never tried out. Should have been advocating for a ramp cost instead of the mag cut.
What, to you, is spamming cloak?
Is it hitting it before an attack twice? Because sometimes a target repositions, and with there being a 3 second timer for the attack, it is sometimes necessary to hit it again before the attack.
Is it using it after 2.5 seconds so that you can get in a keep without 20 guards shooting and chasing you?
Is it reapplying it after said guards break cloak and make you stand up for no reason?
I want to make sure I understand what spamming cloak is to you. I don't consider using the skill as intended at cooldown spamming, when there are things directly tied to that cooldown you need to reapply. Nor do I consider it spamming to use it sooner than that because long standing bugs break it without any actual intervention from an enemy.
If anything, the first two questions will be solved by the toggle. So yay?I drink and I stream things.5 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭Just pointing out the goofy takes that people wasted all of pts complaining about instead of getting everyone onboard to fix the real issue that was present. Spamming cloak would be defined by having to recast before the timer a repeated number of times in a row.
I would say the toggle functions great and relieves a lot of headache. The mag cut is a massive mistake since any given gcd weave for the buffs in a damage rotation means that you will randomly lose your regen tick. Either a ramping cost structure would have been better or simply having the mag cut start after 2s would have been better. Its either you prefer your resources to be like holding your breath(mag cut) or balancing a pole on your hand(ramping).
I personally prefer the devs to go in a route where you do not put players in positions where certain stats are useless (mag cut == regen is useless) Which is why I would prefer the ramping cost structure.2 -
Kaysha✭✭✭✭To be honest, I don´t understand the reasoning behind this change at all. Most of the time when I use a detect pot it´s a death sentence for the attacking NB. These pots are already so powerful that further nerfing cloak is just convenience for lazy players.6 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭To be honest, I don´t understand the reasoning behind this change at all. Most of the time when I use a detect pot it´s a death sentence for the attacking NB. These pots are already so powerful that further nerfing cloak is just convenience for lazy players.
My hunch, based only on opinion, is that this is another change to alleviate server calculations.I drink and I stream things.2 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.
Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:StaticWave wrote: »And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.
I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.
I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.
Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.
And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.DrSlaughtr wrote: »No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.
Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.DrSlaughtr wrote: »"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.
This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.DrSlaughtr wrote: »3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.
??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.
You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.DrSlaughtr wrote: »5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.
Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.
It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.
Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.
But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...
Just a note on this from personal experience. Spamming reveals is fairly useless when your opponent either has good damage, is somewhat competent, or both.
With movement speed and healing being what they are a NB can easily move in and out of detection range and create time to beat the reveal cool down without much issue. The other problem is that they can reposition to a favorable spot after going past the reveal cool down and hit you with another attack even as you have revealed them.
I've spoken out before that the options do work however it should be noted that in the current environment they start to be a lot less potent when your enemy has speed, healing, and understands how to use one or both.
While pots are most reliable the duration can easily be gotten around by someone that knows how to use the above stated well.
Everything you described is a player doing a good job at running their class, which is not a valid reason to reduce their ability to do so. Most things have counters in this game, and it seems like some players like this until what they are doing has a counter. In this case, you hit a detect pot. I don't stand in front of you like a silly goose so you can kill me. You try to chase. I move faster because I sacrificed damage or survivability to move faster than you.
I see NBs die every session. I die sometimes. It usually is because I made a mistake and the other person capitalized, which is pretty much how most fights end. I don't see what the problem is here. Honestly, everyone should be glad there are so many counters to nightblades, because it's a little hypocritical considering that no other class faces such limitations. So rather than enjoying the fact you have direct counters to various aspects of NB play, players complain that there are not even more, or the ones they have aren't overpowered enough.
It just seems silly to me.
Problem is the the NB kit overall starts out ahead of most other classes. So the sacrifice to gain speed will hit the other classes harder and NB less. I have no issue with someone playing their class well but when the class just has more on average going for it than others having the ease of use of a tool like cloak becomes problematic.
This is the same argument going around about sorc. Bad sorcs with average builds aren't much of a problem but a good sorc with a meta build can be more than a bit too much to deal with easily.
Class can be a factor in a fight and that's ok but when class is a very big factor in the fight that's all issue to be addressed2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.
Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:StaticWave wrote: »And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.
I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.
I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.
Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.
And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.DrSlaughtr wrote: »No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.
Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.DrSlaughtr wrote: »"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.
This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.DrSlaughtr wrote: »3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.
??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.
You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.DrSlaughtr wrote: »5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.
Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.
It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.
Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.
But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...
Just a note on this from personal experience. Spamming reveals is fairly useless when your opponent either has good damage, is somewhat competent, or both.
With movement speed and healing being what they are a NB can easily move in and out of detection range and create time to beat the reveal cool down without much issue. The other problem is that they can reposition to a favorable spot after going past the reveal cool down and hit you with another attack even as you have revealed them.
I've spoken out before that the options do work however it should be noted that in the current environment they start to be a lot less potent when your enemy has speed, healing, and understands how to use one or both.
While pots are most reliable the duration can easily be gotten around by someone that knows how to use the above stated well.
Everything you described is a player doing a good job at running their class, which is not a valid reason to reduce their ability to do so. Most things have counters in this game, and it seems like some players like this until what they are doing has a counter. In this case, you hit a detect pot. I don't stand in front of you like a silly goose so you can kill me. You try to chase. I move faster because I sacrificed damage or survivability to move faster than you.
I see NBs die every session. I die sometimes. It usually is because I made a mistake and the other person capitalized, which is pretty much how most fights end. I don't see what the problem is here. Honestly, everyone should be glad there are so many counters to nightblades, because it's a little hypocritical considering that no other class faces such limitations. So rather than enjoying the fact you have direct counters to various aspects of NB play, players complain that there are not even more, or the ones they have aren't overpowered enough.
It just seems silly to me.
Problem is the the NB kit overall starts out ahead of most other classes. So the sacrifice to gain speed will hit the other classes harder and NB less. I have no issue with someone playing their class well but when the class just has more on average going for it than others having the ease of use of a tool like cloak becomes problematic.
This is the same argument going around about sorc. Bad sorcs with average builds aren't much of a problem but a good sorc with a meta build can be more than a bit too much to deal with easily.
Class can be a factor in a fight and that's ok but when class is a very big factor in the fight that's all issue to be addressed
And yet in NA-PC/Mac "Solo(Weekly)" IA scores, they appear to come in 2nd to last. Even necros did better. Only the Warden is coming in worse.
NB top score - 180,000
DK top score - 252,000
Sorc top score - 222,000
Templar top score - 295,000
Necro top score - 186,000
Arc top score - 240,000
Warden top score - 144,000
Looks to me that NB's and Wardens need serious buffs.4 -
Navaac223✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.
Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:StaticWave wrote: »And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.
I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.
I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.
Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.
And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.DrSlaughtr wrote: »No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.
Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.DrSlaughtr wrote: »"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.
This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.DrSlaughtr wrote: »3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.
??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.
You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.DrSlaughtr wrote: »5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.
Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.
It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.
Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.
But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...
Just a note on this from personal experience. Spamming reveals is fairly useless when your opponent either has good damage, is somewhat competent, or both.
With movement speed and healing being what they are a NB can easily move in and out of detection range and create time to beat the reveal cool down without much issue. The other problem is that they can reposition to a favorable spot after going past the reveal cool down and hit you with another attack even as you have revealed them.
I've spoken out before that the options do work however it should be noted that in the current environment they start to be a lot less potent when your enemy has speed, healing, and understands how to use one or both.
While pots are most reliable the duration can easily be gotten around by someone that knows how to use the above stated well.
Everything you described is a player doing a good job at running their class, which is not a valid reason to reduce their ability to do so. Most things have counters in this game, and it seems like some players like this until what they are doing has a counter. In this case, you hit a detect pot. I don't stand in front of you like a silly goose so you can kill me. You try to chase. I move faster because I sacrificed damage or survivability to move faster than you.
I see NBs die every session. I die sometimes. It usually is because I made a mistake and the other person capitalized, which is pretty much how most fights end. I don't see what the problem is here. Honestly, everyone should be glad there are so many counters to nightblades, because it's a little hypocritical considering that no other class faces such limitations. So rather than enjoying the fact you have direct counters to various aspects of NB play, players complain that there are not even more, or the ones they have aren't overpowered enough.
It just seems silly to me.
Problem is the the NB kit overall starts out ahead of most other classes. So the sacrifice to gain speed will hit the other classes harder and NB less. I have no issue with someone playing their class well but when the class just has more on average going for it than others having the ease of use of a tool like cloak becomes problematic.
This is the same argument going around about sorc. Bad sorcs with average builds aren't much of a problem but a good sorc with a meta build can be more than a bit too much to deal with easily.
Class can be a factor in a fight and that's ok but when class is a very big factor in the fight that's all issue to be addressed
And yet in NA-PC/Mac "Solo(Weekly)" IA scores, they appear to come in 2nd to last. Even necros did better. Only the Warden is coming in worse.
NB top score - 180,000
DK top score - 252,000
Sorc top score - 222,000
Templar top score - 295,000
Necro top score - 186,000
Arc top score - 240,000
Warden top score - 144,000
Looks to me that NB's and Wardens need serious buffs.
They were talking about pvp. Obviously no one would claim that nb is op in pve.
The issue with nb is that it has a great spammable, infinite sustain, stealth, one of the best ults out there, the best burst heal after hardened ward, major courage... it's simply leages ahead of everything (excpept magsorcs but they're in a category of their own). Try pvping on a nb and then try the same on a necro. You will see the difference0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.
Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:StaticWave wrote: »And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.
I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.
I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.
Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.
And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.DrSlaughtr wrote: »No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.
Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.DrSlaughtr wrote: »"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.
This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.DrSlaughtr wrote: »3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.
??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.
You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.DrSlaughtr wrote: »5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.
Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.
It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.
Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.
But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...
Just a note on this from personal experience. Spamming reveals is fairly useless when your opponent either has good damage, is somewhat competent, or both.
With movement speed and healing being what they are a NB can easily move in and out of detection range and create time to beat the reveal cool down without much issue. The other problem is that they can reposition to a favorable spot after going past the reveal cool down and hit you with another attack even as you have revealed them.
I've spoken out before that the options do work however it should be noted that in the current environment they start to be a lot less potent when your enemy has speed, healing, and understands how to use one or both.
While pots are most reliable the duration can easily be gotten around by someone that knows how to use the above stated well.
Everything you described is a player doing a good job at running their class, which is not a valid reason to reduce their ability to do so. Most things have counters in this game, and it seems like some players like this until what they are doing has a counter. In this case, you hit a detect pot. I don't stand in front of you like a silly goose so you can kill me. You try to chase. I move faster because I sacrificed damage or survivability to move faster than you.
I see NBs die every session. I die sometimes. It usually is because I made a mistake and the other person capitalized, which is pretty much how most fights end. I don't see what the problem is here. Honestly, everyone should be glad there are so many counters to nightblades, because it's a little hypocritical considering that no other class faces such limitations. So rather than enjoying the fact you have direct counters to various aspects of NB play, players complain that there are not even more, or the ones they have aren't overpowered enough.
It just seems silly to me.
Problem is the the NB kit overall starts out ahead of most other classes. So the sacrifice to gain speed will hit the other classes harder and NB less. I have no issue with someone playing their class well but when the class just has more on average going for it than others having the ease of use of a tool like cloak becomes problematic.
This is the same argument going around about sorc. Bad sorcs with average builds aren't much of a problem but a good sorc with a meta build can be more than a bit too much to deal with easily.
Class can be a factor in a fight and that's ok but when class is a very big factor in the fight that's all issue to be addressed
And yet in NA-PC/Mac "Solo(Weekly)" IA scores, they appear to come in 2nd to last. Even necros did better. Only the Warden is coming in worse.
NB top score - 180,000
DK top score - 252,000
Sorc top score - 222,000
Templar top score - 295,000
Necro top score - 186,000
Arc top score - 240,000
Warden top score - 144,000
Looks to me that NB's and Wardens need serious buffs.
They were talking about pvp. Obviously no one would claim that nb is op in pve.
The issue with nb is that it has a great spammable, infinite sustain, stealth, one of the best ults out there, the best burst heal after hardened ward, major courage... it's simply leages ahead of everything (excpept magsorcs but they're in a category of their own). Try pvping on a nb and then try the same on a necro. You will see the difference
The best? Should I link the scores again? For a class with all these great tools, it’s weird how ineffective they are in combat. Even necros are (slightly) better.
I am sick of PvP just running over pve. I used to PvP and got tired of the constant complaints and calls for nerfs. Now nbs get nerfed AGAIN for pve because someone died in PvP.
The only thing they had going for them in pve was cloak and of course that gets targeted. So why bother with the class except for the allure of what they once were?
All of the vanilla classes are doing well, except nbs. So nerf nbs I guess.2 -
BasP✭✭✭✭The best? Should I link the scores again? For a class with all these great tools, it’s weird how ineffective they are in combat. Even necros are (slightly) better.
I am sick of PvP just running over pve. I used to PvP and got tired of the constant complaints and calls for nerfs. Now nbs get nerfed AGAIN for pve because someone died in PvP.
The only thing they had going for them in pve was cloak and of course that gets targeted. So why bother with the class except for the allure of what they once were?
All of the vanilla classes are doing well, except nbs. So nerf nbs I guess.
Well, at least Vampire Stamblades can now do ~141K DPS on a Trial Dummy due to the Cloak change, so I suppose that could be considered a win...
I'd personally like it if ZOS would improve the NBs in-class AOE damage in meaningful ways though. I get that they are trying to do that with the recent-ish change to Dark Shade and the updated Lotus Fan, but still... I wouldn't mind it if Twisting Path (which wasn't even used in the above parse) would be buffed by 10% to make its DPS equal to Boneyard and Blazing Spear for example. Path could even get a Synergy like those skills as well.0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »To be honest, I don´t understand the reasoning behind this change at all. Most of the time when I use a detect pot it´s a death sentence for the attacking NB. These pots are already so powerful that further nerfing cloak is just convenience for lazy players.
My hunch, based only on opinion, is that this is another change to alleviate server calculations.
That wouldn't be the worst rationale. There needs to be care given to how the game actually runs.
Though that effort is likely completely undone by continuing to add new sets that have convoluted set descriptions (and, more importantly, implementation logic) that are as long as War and Peace. Simply deleting Azureblight would probably have a much bigger impact on performance than any change made to Cloak (even acknowledging that Cyro is like 50% NB, LUL).0 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.
Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:StaticWave wrote: »And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.
I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.
I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.
Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.
And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.DrSlaughtr wrote: »No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.
Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.DrSlaughtr wrote: »"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.
This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.DrSlaughtr wrote: »3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.
??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.
You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.DrSlaughtr wrote: »5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.
Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.
It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.
Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.
But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...
Just a note on this from personal experience. Spamming reveals is fairly useless when your opponent either has good damage, is somewhat competent, or both.
With movement speed and healing being what they are a NB can easily move in and out of detection range and create time to beat the reveal cool down without much issue. The other problem is that they can reposition to a favorable spot after going past the reveal cool down and hit you with another attack even as you have revealed them.
I've spoken out before that the options do work however it should be noted that in the current environment they start to be a lot less potent when your enemy has speed, healing, and understands how to use one or both.
While pots are most reliable the duration can easily be gotten around by someone that knows how to use the above stated well.
Everything you described is a player doing a good job at running their class, which is not a valid reason to reduce their ability to do so. Most things have counters in this game, and it seems like some players like this until what they are doing has a counter. In this case, you hit a detect pot. I don't stand in front of you like a silly goose so you can kill me. You try to chase. I move faster because I sacrificed damage or survivability to move faster than you.
I see NBs die every session. I die sometimes. It usually is because I made a mistake and the other person capitalized, which is pretty much how most fights end. I don't see what the problem is here. Honestly, everyone should be glad there are so many counters to nightblades, because it's a little hypocritical considering that no other class faces such limitations. So rather than enjoying the fact you have direct counters to various aspects of NB play, players complain that there are not even more, or the ones they have aren't overpowered enough.
It just seems silly to me.
Problem is the the NB kit overall starts out ahead of most other classes. So the sacrifice to gain speed will hit the other classes harder and NB less. I have no issue with someone playing their class well but when the class just has more on average going for it than others having the ease of use of a tool like cloak becomes problematic.
This is the same argument going around about sorc. Bad sorcs with average builds aren't much of a problem but a good sorc with a meta build can be more than a bit too much to deal with easily.
Class can be a factor in a fight and that's ok but when class is a very big factor in the fight that's all issue to be addressed
And yet in NA-PC/Mac "Solo(Weekly)" IA scores, they appear to come in 2nd to last. Even necros did better. Only the Warden is coming in worse.
NB top score - 180,000
DK top score - 252,000
Sorc top score - 222,000
Templar top score - 295,000
Necro top score - 186,000
Arc top score - 240,000
Warden top score - 144,000
Looks to me that NB's and Wardens need serious buffs.
They were talking about pvp. Obviously no one would claim that nb is op in pve.
And yet they live and die together. A nerf to one is a nerf to both. *That's* why PVE scores matter. For PVE NB's could use a buff, but PVP is the reason we won't get one.
PS5/NA5 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.
Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:StaticWave wrote: »And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.
I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.
I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.
Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.
I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.
And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.DrSlaughtr wrote: »No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.
Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.DrSlaughtr wrote: »"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.
This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.DrSlaughtr wrote: »3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.
??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.DrSlaughtr wrote: »4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.
You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.DrSlaughtr wrote: »5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.
Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.
It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.
Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.
But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...
Just a note on this from personal experience. Spamming reveals is fairly useless when your opponent either has good damage, is somewhat competent, or both.
With movement speed and healing being what they are a NB can easily move in and out of detection range and create time to beat the reveal cool down without much issue. The other problem is that they can reposition to a favorable spot after going past the reveal cool down and hit you with another attack even as you have revealed them.
I've spoken out before that the options do work however it should be noted that in the current environment they start to be a lot less potent when your enemy has speed, healing, and understands how to use one or both.
While pots are most reliable the duration can easily be gotten around by someone that knows how to use the above stated well.
Everything you described is a player doing a good job at running their class, which is not a valid reason to reduce their ability to do so. Most things have counters in this game, and it seems like some players like this until what they are doing has a counter. In this case, you hit a detect pot. I don't stand in front of you like a silly goose so you can kill me. You try to chase. I move faster because I sacrificed damage or survivability to move faster than you.
I see NBs die every session. I die sometimes. It usually is because I made a mistake and the other person capitalized, which is pretty much how most fights end. I don't see what the problem is here. Honestly, everyone should be glad there are so many counters to nightblades, because it's a little hypocritical considering that no other class faces such limitations. So rather than enjoying the fact you have direct counters to various aspects of NB play, players complain that there are not even more, or the ones they have aren't overpowered enough.
It just seems silly to me.
Problem is the the NB kit overall starts out ahead of most other classes. So the sacrifice to gain speed will hit the other classes harder and NB less. I have no issue with someone playing their class well but when the class just has more on average going for it than others having the ease of use of a tool like cloak becomes problematic.
This is the same argument going around about sorc. Bad sorcs with average builds aren't much of a problem but a good sorc with a meta build can be more than a bit too much to deal with easily.
Class can be a factor in a fight and that's ok but when class is a very big factor in the fight that's all issue to be addressed
And yet in NA-PC/Mac "Solo(Weekly)" IA scores, they appear to come in 2nd to last. Even necros did better. Only the Warden is coming in worse.
NB top score - 180,000
DK top score - 252,000
Sorc top score - 222,000
Templar top score - 295,000
Necro top score - 186,000
Arc top score - 240,000
Warden top score - 144,000
Looks to me that NB's and Wardens need serious buffs.
They were talking about pvp. Obviously no one would claim that nb is op in pve.
And yet they live and die together. A nerf to one is a nerf to both. *That's* why PVE scores matter. For PVE NB's could use a buff, but PVP is the reason we won't get one.
That's why the context is so important though.
Nerfing NB in PvP should come with targeted buffs for PvE, this is what everyone who wants NB nerfed in PvP agrees on and have made infinite suggestions on ways and directions that would make that a reality. Things like buffing NB's sustained damage over time and NB cleave while reducing NBs burst would be one way to do this.
If this is not happening, do not get snippy with players for calling for balance to a class that is oppressing their preferred part of the game, start asking ZOS why they are refusing to make appropriate balance changes where they are actually needed and are refusing to listen to their community on reaching a middle ground for things instead of pig headedly barging forward with changes that screw up everything for everyone. Start calling for ZOS to make better changes instead of nonsense ones.5 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Everyone is okay with their class being meta until it isn't, and then all of a sudden it's time to attack other classes.
And using other classes who have been given the shaft (necro) as a justification to shaft nightblades is directing your annoyance at the wrong target.
In as long as I've played this game, I can only remember NBs being THE class once, for three months, in 2021. TTK was really low so people piled onto NBs to do some business. And what happened?
That midyear mayhem turned into a giant anger fest on these forums. TTK was too low. People liked killing people fast but not dying fast. So then we started getting tank buffs with Waking Flame.
NBs have been consistently good but not the best since. The top has teetered back and forth from DK to Warden to sorc. All three of those in meta gear in the hands of skilled players are unkillable by 99% of players solo.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. We all die. Some easier than others. And for every advantage we have, you have a counter. It's a lot more "fair" than corrosive dks, shielded sorcs you have to kill 5 times over, or warden tanks charming you into a northern storm.
Would you rather fight a solo nightblade or 5 tanks targeting you with ultimates that you need 20 friends to help kill?Edited by DrSlaughtr on 27 October 2024 18:00I drink and I stream things.6 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Can I have 20 friends when I'm fighting the solo nightblade?DrSlaughtr wrote: »Would you rather fight a solo nightblade for 5 tanks targeting you with ultimates that you need 20 friends to help kill?PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »Everyone is okay with their class being meta until it isn't, and then all of a sudden it's time to attack other classes.
And using other classes who have been given the shaft (necro) as a justification to shaft nightblades is directing your annoyance at the wrong target.
In as long as I've played this game, I can only remember NBs being THE class once, for three months, in 2021. TTK was really low so people piled onto NBs to do some business. And what happened?
That midyear mayhem turned into a giant anger fest on these forums. TTK was too low. People liked killing people fast but not dying fast. So then we started getting tank buffs with Waking Flame.
NBs have been consistently good but not the best since. The top has teetered back and forth from DK to Warden to sorc. All three of those in meta gear in the hands of skilled players are unkillable by 99% of players solo.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. We all die. Some easier than others. And for every advantage we have, you have a counter. It's a lot more "fair" than corrosive dks, shielded sorcs you have to kill 5 times over, or warden tanks charming you into a northern storm.
Would you rather fight a solo nightblade for 5 tanks targeting you with ultimates that you need 20 friends to help kill?
Yeah this is all kinds of misleading. There are definitely unkillable cloak blades, there's really unkillable anything when a player uses the environment correctly and has a build with decent speed and defenses.
Now if you speak of 1v1 it's easy for a NB that knows rotation to stay in heals and just tank damage from 1 player. The crit healing is pretty crazy. Now add speed, invisibility, and possibly shade usage and you can be using pots and reveal skills and you're potentially still facing an opponent that didn't even need to use cloak to survive who can also potentially streak in 3 dimensions depending on what's around. Oh yeah and your teleport is debuffing me at range lol.
Charm Warden is still, sorcs that won't die due to an insane shield setup is silly, DK is not as silly being that they at least to me have less burst, can sometimes be slow, and are telegraphed. Even Templar can live in endless heals.
But while shade and cloak can escape multiple players with a bit of ease it's a lot more work to do so in a class that doesn't have one button repeatable access. Sorc I admit is close but to some degree they can at least be chased down.2 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Can I have 20 friends when I'm fighting the solo nightblade?DrSlaughtr wrote: »Would you rather fight a solo nightblade for 5 tanks targeting you with ultimates that you need 20 friends to help kill?
Absolutely. I get ran over by 8+ tanks annoyingly often.I drink and I stream things.1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Everyone is okay with their class being meta until it isn't, and then all of a sudden it's time to attack other classes.
And using other classes who have been given the shaft (necro) as a justification to shaft nightblades is directing your annoyance at the wrong target.
In as long as I've played this game, I can only remember NBs being THE class once, for three months, in 2021. TTK was really low so people piled onto NBs to do some business. And what happened?
That midyear mayhem turned into a giant anger fest on these forums. TTK was too low. People liked killing people fast but not dying fast. So then we started getting tank buffs with Waking Flame.
NBs have been consistently good but not the best since. The top has teetered back and forth from DK to Warden to sorc. All three of those in meta gear in the hands of skilled players are unkillable by 99% of players solo.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. We all die. Some easier than others. And for every advantage we have, you have a counter. It's a lot more "fair" than corrosive dks, shielded sorcs you have to kill 5 times over, or warden tanks charming you into a northern storm.
Would you rather fight a solo nightblade for 5 tanks targeting you with ultimates that you need 20 friends to help kill?
Yeah this is all kinds of misleading. There are definitely unkillable cloak blades, there's really unkillable anything when a player uses the environment correctly and has a build with decent speed and defenses.
Now if you speak of 1v1 it's easy for a NB that knows rotation to stay in heals and just tank damage from 1 player. The crit healing is pretty crazy. Now add speed, invisibility, and possibly shade usage and you can be using pots and reveal skills and you're potentially still facing an opponent that didn't even need to use cloak to survive who can also potentially streak in 3 dimensions depending on what's around. Oh yeah and your teleport is debuffing me at range lol.
Charm Warden is still, sorcs that won't die due to an insane shield setup is silly, DK is not as silly being that they at least to me have less burst, can sometimes be slow, and are telegraphed. Even Templar can live in endless heals.
But while shade and cloak can escape multiple players with a bit of ease it's a lot more work to do so in a class that doesn't have one button repeatable access. Sorc I admit is close but to some degree they can at least be chased down.
Okay well I guess I have to define unkillable.
I stand there. I either block or heal all of your damage. You have no counters to eliminate my ability to do so or continuously refresh shields so all your damage is negated. It doesn't matter how much damage you output, you can mathematically never kill me with one person unless I do something incredibly stupid.
Welcome to Cyrodiil.
Me running around a tree to get a heal in isn't being unkillable. It's being smart. I have 9k physical resistance and 12k spell resistance without major resolve, which I only get for a few seconds as a passive. I am absolutely destroyable if you get ahold of me on any build with less than 35k health.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. There are NBs who build to brawl and require tankiness. They are not usually running around in cloak. There is one in particular NB XB-NA who does use cloak as an escape as a little tankyblade he but can't kill anyone with half a brain 1v1 even out of stealth. He is a little hard to kill but only because his damage output has been sacrificed for heavy armor. He is really good at that playstyle but certainly isn't indicate of the vast majority of players.
He also runs around with a group of tanks on other classes and they group focus targets down to overcome their lack of direct damage.
I don't see a lot of people using shade. I do play on PC occasionally (though recently it has been rarely). Is this something people are doing en masse on PC or is this one of those "they CAN do it and that's good enough reason" to use it as an example?
In conclusion: Yes, someone with cloak and speed is hard to catch. No, they are not unkillable 1v1. Both things are true.I drink and I stream things.4 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Everyone is okay with their class being meta until it isn't, and then all of a sudden it's time to attack other classes.
And using other classes who have been given the shaft (necro) as a justification to shaft nightblades is directing your annoyance at the wrong target.
In as long as I've played this game, I can only remember NBs being THE class once, for three months, in 2021. TTK was really low so people piled onto NBs to do some business. And what happened?
That midyear mayhem turned into a giant anger fest on these forums. TTK was too low. People liked killing people fast but not dying fast. So then we started getting tank buffs with Waking Flame.
NBs have been consistently good but not the best since. The top has teetered back and forth from DK to Warden to sorc. All three of those in meta gear in the hands of skilled players are unkillable by 99% of players solo.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. We all die. Some easier than others. And for every advantage we have, you have a counter. It's a lot more "fair" than corrosive dks, shielded sorcs you have to kill 5 times over, or warden tanks charming you into a northern storm.
Would you rather fight a solo nightblade for 5 tanks targeting you with ultimates that you need 20 friends to help kill?
Yeah this is all kinds of misleading. There are definitely unkillable cloak blades, there's really unkillable anything when a player uses the environment correctly and has a build with decent speed and defenses.
Now if you speak of 1v1 it's easy for a NB that knows rotation to stay in heals and just tank damage from 1 player. The crit healing is pretty crazy. Now add speed, invisibility, and possibly shade usage and you can be using pots and reveal skills and you're potentially still facing an opponent that didn't even need to use cloak to survive who can also potentially streak in 3 dimensions depending on what's around. Oh yeah and your teleport is debuffing me at range lol.
Charm Warden is still, sorcs that won't die due to an insane shield setup is silly, DK is not as silly being that they at least to me have less burst, can sometimes be slow, and are telegraphed. Even Templar can live in endless heals.
But while shade and cloak can escape multiple players with a bit of ease it's a lot more work to do so in a class that doesn't have one button repeatable access. Sorc I admit is close but to some degree they can at least be chased down.
Okay well I guess I have to define unkillable.
I stand there. I either block or heal all of your damage. You have no counters to eliminate my ability to do so or continuously refresh shields so all your damage is negated. It doesn't matter how much damage you output, you can mathematically never kill me with one person unless I do something incredibly stupid.
Welcome to Cyrodiil.
Me running around a tree to get a heal in isn't being unkillable. It's being smart. I have 9k physical resistance and 12k spell resistance without major resolve, which I only get for a few seconds as a passive. I am absolutely destroyable if you get ahold of me on any build with less than 35k health.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. There are NBs who build to brawl and require tankiness. They are not usually running around in cloak. There is one in particular NB XB-NA who does use cloak as an escape as a little tankyblade he but can't kill anyone with half a brain 1v1 even out of stealth. He is a little hard to kill but only because his damage output has been sacrificed for heavy armor. He is really good at that playstyle but certainly isn't indicate of the vast majority of players.
He also runs around with a group of tanks on other classes and they group focus targets down to overcome their lack of direct damage.
I don't see a lot of people using shade. I do play on PC occasionally (though recently it has been rarely). Is this something people are doing en masse on PC or is this one of those "they CAN do it and that's good enough reason" to use it as an example?
In conclusion: Yes, someone with cloak and speed is hard to catch. No, they are not unkillable 1v1. Both things are true.
You're defining a specific scenario to fit your argument. To me a cloakblade is one that can use cloak multiple times. Doesn't matter if they built to brawl or gank.
See if we sit here and define scenarios that fit the story we're trying to tell we'll be here all day and the funny part is that they will all be true.
It's not really about does it happen but more so how often it happens. There aren't a lot the can pull off and unkillable NB as easily as Warden or sorc I'll hm grant you that but there are a terrible number of players that spam cloak on the regular and that get around the supposed counters with a bit of liberty.
It's not that I don't or can't kill nbs, I do and can but straight up a nerf to the skill is needed even if just to try to help balance out the class populations. Kill enemy players and kill enemy nbs shouldn't be similarly easy to complete.
1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Everyone is okay with their class being meta until it isn't, and then all of a sudden it's time to attack other classes.
And using other classes who have been given the shaft (necro) as a justification to shaft nightblades is directing your annoyance at the wrong target.
In as long as I've played this game, I can only remember NBs being THE class once, for three months, in 2021. TTK was really low so people piled onto NBs to do some business. And what happened?
That midyear mayhem turned into a giant anger fest on these forums. TTK was too low. People liked killing people fast but not dying fast. So then we started getting tank buffs with Waking Flame.
NBs have been consistently good but not the best since. The top has teetered back and forth from DK to Warden to sorc. All three of those in meta gear in the hands of skilled players are unkillable by 99% of players solo.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. We all die. Some easier than others. And for every advantage we have, you have a counter. It's a lot more "fair" than corrosive dks, shielded sorcs you have to kill 5 times over, or warden tanks charming you into a northern storm.
Would you rather fight a solo nightblade for 5 tanks targeting you with ultimates that you need 20 friends to help kill?
Yeah this is all kinds of misleading. There are definitely unkillable cloak blades, there's really unkillable anything when a player uses the environment correctly and has a build with decent speed and defenses.
Now if you speak of 1v1 it's easy for a NB that knows rotation to stay in heals and just tank damage from 1 player. The crit healing is pretty crazy. Now add speed, invisibility, and possibly shade usage and you can be using pots and reveal skills and you're potentially still facing an opponent that didn't even need to use cloak to survive who can also potentially streak in 3 dimensions depending on what's around. Oh yeah and your teleport is debuffing me at range lol.
Charm Warden is still, sorcs that won't die due to an insane shield setup is silly, DK is not as silly being that they at least to me have less burst, can sometimes be slow, and are telegraphed. Even Templar can live in endless heals.
But while shade and cloak can escape multiple players with a bit of ease it's a lot more work to do so in a class that doesn't have one button repeatable access. Sorc I admit is close but to some degree they can at least be chased down.
Okay well I guess I have to define unkillable.
I stand there. I either block or heal all of your damage. You have no counters to eliminate my ability to do so or continuously refresh shields so all your damage is negated. It doesn't matter how much damage you output, you can mathematically never kill me with one person unless I do something incredibly stupid.
Welcome to Cyrodiil.
Me running around a tree to get a heal in isn't being unkillable. It's being smart. I have 9k physical resistance and 12k spell resistance without major resolve, which I only get for a few seconds as a passive. I am absolutely destroyable if you get ahold of me on any build with less than 35k health.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. There are NBs who build to brawl and require tankiness. They are not usually running around in cloak. There is one in particular NB XB-NA who does use cloak as an escape as a little tankyblade he but can't kill anyone with half a brain 1v1 even out of stealth. He is a little hard to kill but only because his damage output has been sacrificed for heavy armor. He is really good at that playstyle but certainly isn't indicate of the vast majority of players.
He also runs around with a group of tanks on other classes and they group focus targets down to overcome their lack of direct damage.
I don't see a lot of people using shade. I do play on PC occasionally (though recently it has been rarely). Is this something people are doing en masse on PC or is this one of those "they CAN do it and that's good enough reason" to use it as an example?
In conclusion: Yes, someone with cloak and speed is hard to catch. No, they are not unkillable 1v1. Both things are true.
You're defining a specific scenario to fit your argument. To me a cloakblade is one that can use cloak multiple times. Doesn't matter if they built to brawl or gank.
See if we sit here and define scenarios that fit the story we're trying to tell we'll be here all day and the funny part is that they will all be true.
It's not really about does it happen but more so how often it happens. There aren't a lot the can pull off and unkillable NB as easily as Warden or sorc I'll hm grant you that but there are a terrible number of players that spam cloak on the regular and that get around the supposed counters with a bit of liberty.
It's not that I don't or can't kill nbs, I do and can but straight up a nerf to the skill is needed even if just to try to help balance out the class populations. Kill enemy players and kill enemy nbs shouldn't be similarly easy to complete.
Dude. For real, I'm just gonna lay this out.
Just because someone CAN run skills does not mean it's indicative of a majority players.
I CAN build a nightblade tank with shields that "spams" cloak. I'll be hard to kill and be otherwise useless. This is not how most people play and as such not a valid complaint.
Brawl blades don't typically rely on cloak. I know of two that slot it but barely use it because they build so tanky they don't need to. These are not the majority of NB players in my experience.
So now you're talking about two scenarios that are not representative of a significant portion of NB players and using it to frame an argument against the majority of nightblade players.
CLOAK has been nerfed multiple times, directly or indirectly and every time someone complains about those nerfs not being ENOUGH all I see is sour grapes.
People need to move on from this. Argue for improving your classes. Stop living to ruin other people's enjoyment.I drink and I stream things.7 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Everyone is okay with their class being meta until it isn't, and then all of a sudden it's time to attack other classes.
And using other classes who have been given the shaft (necro) as a justification to shaft nightblades is directing your annoyance at the wrong target.
In as long as I've played this game, I can only remember NBs being THE class once, for three months, in 2021. TTK was really low so people piled onto NBs to do some business. And what happened?
That midyear mayhem turned into a giant anger fest on these forums. TTK was too low. People liked killing people fast but not dying fast. So then we started getting tank buffs with Waking Flame.
NBs have been consistently good but not the best since. The top has teetered back and forth from DK to Warden to sorc. All three of those in meta gear in the hands of skilled players are unkillable by 99% of players solo.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. We all die. Some easier than others. And for every advantage we have, you have a counter. It's a lot more "fair" than corrosive dks, shielded sorcs you have to kill 5 times over, or warden tanks charming you into a northern storm.
Would you rather fight a solo nightblade for 5 tanks targeting you with ultimates that you need 20 friends to help kill?
Yeah this is all kinds of misleading. There are definitely unkillable cloak blades, there's really unkillable anything when a player uses the environment correctly and has a build with decent speed and defenses.
Now if you speak of 1v1 it's easy for a NB that knows rotation to stay in heals and just tank damage from 1 player. The crit healing is pretty crazy. Now add speed, invisibility, and possibly shade usage and you can be using pots and reveal skills and you're potentially still facing an opponent that didn't even need to use cloak to survive who can also potentially streak in 3 dimensions depending on what's around. Oh yeah and your teleport is debuffing me at range lol.
Charm Warden is still, sorcs that won't die due to an insane shield setup is silly, DK is not as silly being that they at least to me have less burst, can sometimes be slow, and are telegraphed. Even Templar can live in endless heals.
But while shade and cloak can escape multiple players with a bit of ease it's a lot more work to do so in a class that doesn't have one button repeatable access. Sorc I admit is close but to some degree they can at least be chased down.
Okay well I guess I have to define unkillable.
I stand there. I either block or heal all of your damage. You have no counters to eliminate my ability to do so or continuously refresh shields so all your damage is negated. It doesn't matter how much damage you output, you can mathematically never kill me with one person unless I do something incredibly stupid.
Welcome to Cyrodiil.
Me running around a tree to get a heal in isn't being unkillable. It's being smart. I have 9k physical resistance and 12k spell resistance without major resolve, which I only get for a few seconds as a passive. I am absolutely destroyable if you get ahold of me on any build with less than 35k health.
There are no unkillable cloak blades. There are NBs who build to brawl and require tankiness. They are not usually running around in cloak. There is one in particular NB XB-NA who does use cloak as an escape as a little tankyblade he but can't kill anyone with half a brain 1v1 even out of stealth. He is a little hard to kill but only because his damage output has been sacrificed for heavy armor. He is really good at that playstyle but certainly isn't indicate of the vast majority of players.
He also runs around with a group of tanks on other classes and they group focus targets down to overcome their lack of direct damage.
I don't see a lot of people using shade. I do play on PC occasionally (though recently it has been rarely). Is this something people are doing en masse on PC or is this one of those "they CAN do it and that's good enough reason" to use it as an example?
In conclusion: Yes, someone with cloak and speed is hard to catch. No, they are not unkillable 1v1. Both things are true.
You're defining a specific scenario to fit your argument. To me a cloakblade is one that can use cloak multiple times. Doesn't matter if they built to brawl or gank.
See if we sit here and define scenarios that fit the story we're trying to tell we'll be here all day and the funny part is that they will all be true.
It's not really about does it happen but more so how often it happens. There aren't a lot the can pull off and unkillable NB as easily as Warden or sorc I'll hm grant you that but there are a terrible number of players that spam cloak on the regular and that get around the supposed counters with a bit of liberty.
It's not that I don't or can't kill nbs, I do and can but straight up a nerf to the skill is needed even if just to try to help balance out the class populations. Kill enemy players and kill enemy nbs shouldn't be similarly easy to complete.
Dude. For real, I'm just gonna lay this out.
Just because someone CAN run skills does not mean it's indicative of a majority players.
I CAN build a nightblade tank with shields that "spams" cloak. I'll be hard to kill and be otherwise useless. This is not how most people play and as such not a valid complaint.
Brawl blades don't typically rely on cloak. I know of two that slot it but barely use it because they build so tanky they don't need to. These are not the majority of NB players in my experience.
So now you're talking about two scenarios that are not representative of a significant portion of NB players and using it to frame an argument against the majority of nightblade players.
CLOAK has been nerfed multiple times, directly or indirectly and every time someone complains about those nerfs not being ENOUGH all I see is sour grapes.
People need to move on from this. Argue for improving your classes. Stop living to ruin other people's enjoyment.
For me this is different than being a case of just improving XYZ class. You can improve classes all day but the current iteration of cloak just generally removes an element of fun from the game by making an enemy that can at will vanish and that has counters that work but that can be gotten around by that same enemy fairly easily.
To be clear I don't mind at all that someone can turn invisible at will. I mind that it's in combination with speed, damage, strong heals, and is very easily repeatable.
Gameplay should be fun for everyone generally speaking but an imbalance of any kind then has the ability to imbalance overall enjoyment of the game.
Again I point to the generally high NB population. In a game with multiple classes it should be considered an issue that for so long one has been at such a high usage level in PVP.
Stealth when done right should be a blast to play but there need to be enough penalties to make it gameplay that is rewarding with decent tradeoffs.2 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭At first I reacted to these upcoming changes negatively. Thought about it a bit this weekend and it does nothing to change how much damage I can do, or my ability to sneak around and wack someone. I press the button once and I can then just sneak around until I run out of resource or am done. I'm a stage four vamp so if i can get a few seconds to run away I'm safe usually.
Does anyone know if there is a delay you have to wait before you can re-engage cloak? If not then just toggle it off and on a will and let your resource build up. I pretty much just crouch when sneaking up anyway and then spam it to get away. Just toggle it and get away after the change, beats spamming the button every 2 seconds.
I still don't know why there is a reason for the change however. Maybe they think it will be like the changes to Merciless Resolve which was nice.
Going to hold my criticism for now. Who knows might be better?0 -
RemoryAzure✭✭✭Veinblood1965 wrote: »I still don't know why there is a reason for the change however.
coz in pvp NB needs to be nerfed by the amount of the time he can yolo stealth. although i think this is a wrong direction. imo the better change would be "enter stealth for 20 seconds, ur next 3 attacks are guaranteed to crit and the first one applies 10 sec debuff which restricts u from entering stealth again". it would make tactical retreats and sustain (which NB is struggling A LOT with) much easier, but also level up the risk and reward level of attacking someone from stealth.0 -
ioResult✭✭✭
And what do you play? Sorc or Warden? Or maybe an Arcanist or DK that has infinite shields and infinite sustain now?Bushido2513 wrote: »It's not really about does it happen but more so how often it happens. There aren't a lot the can pull off and unkillable NB as easily as Warden or sorc I'll hm grant you that but there are a terrible number of players that spam cloak on the regular and that get around the supposed counters with a bit of liberty.
It's not that I don't or can't kill nbs, I do and can but straight up a nerf to the skill is needed even if just to try to help balance out the class populations. Kill enemy players and kill enemy nbs shouldn't be similarly easy to complete.
There are all these low skilled clowns now running around Cyrodiil while crutching on stupid Scribing skills and completely out of balance builds but almost none of them are on Nightblades.
Is there one single Nightblade Brawler build that takes advantage of all this same tanky heals + shields idiocy that ZOS has released in the last year or so?
Absolutely!
Does that build also use Cloak?
Absolutely!
Do 99% of the Nightblades running around in Cyrodiil and BGs NOT use that stealthy Brawler Nightblade build?
Definitely!
So your argument is that the 99% of the Nightblades in Cyrodiil (which really aren't that hard to kill) that DON'T use Cloak in a way that you find offensive should all suffer because that 1% of Nightblades in Cyrodiil who do so pisses you off?
Sure seems that way to us.
And in typical ZOS fashion, ZOS devs listen to people like you instead of the 99% of players actually playing the class and not doing what you're describing.
The Nightblade Brawler build you hate so much is used far more in BGs than in Cyrodiil because its more effective there. It's still gonna be there this patch because what frustrates you really is not Cloak. It is how hard they are to kill otherwise. And that has only been exacerbated by the idiocy known as Scribing.
This Cloak change won't affect one iota anything you and others like you hate about fighting that stealthy Brawler Nightblade build. They don't use Cloak in a way that the lack of Magicka regen will bother them one bit. They know to only hit Cloak once every 4 - 6 seconds and will regen enough Magicka between casts to still do what you hate.
Bottom line is that all this stupid change does is frustrate the 99% of other Nightblades who don't play in a playstyle that you don't like.
And please, don't forget to tell us, what class are you maining in Cyrodiil.But yeah ZOS...Cloak is the problem.
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sudo rm -rf /
don't try this at ~3 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
And what do you play? Sorc or Warden? Or maybe an Arcanist or DK that has infinite shields and infinite sustain now?Bushido2513 wrote: »It's not really about does it happen but more so how often it happens. There aren't a lot the can pull off and unkillable NB as easily as Warden or sorc I'll hm grant you that but there are a terrible number of players that spam cloak on the regular and that get around the supposed counters with a bit of liberty.
It's not that I don't or can't kill nbs, I do and can but straight up a nerf to the skill is needed even if just to try to help balance out the class populations. Kill enemy players and kill enemy nbs shouldn't be similarly easy to complete.
There are all these low skilled clowns now running around Cyrodiil while crutching on stupid Scribing skills and completely out of balance builds but almost none of them are on Nightblades.
Is there one single Nightblade Brawler build that takes advantage of all this same tanky heals + shields idiocy that ZOS has released in the last year or so?
Absolutely!
Does that build also use Cloak?
Absolutely!
Do 99% of the Nightblades running around in Cyrodiil and BGs NOT use that stealthy Brawler Nightblade build?
Definitely!
So your argument is that the 99% of the Nightblades in Cyrodiil (which really aren't that hard to kill) that DON'T use Cloak in a way that you find offensive should all suffer because that 1% of Nightblades in Cyrodiil who do so pisses you off?
Sure seems that way to us.
And in typical ZOS fashion, ZOS devs listen to people like you instead of the 99% of players actually playing the class and not doing what you're describing.
The Nightblade Brawler build you hate so much is used far more in BGs than in Cyrodiil because its more effective there. It's still gonna be there this patch because what frustrates you really is not Cloak. It is how hard they are to kill otherwise. And that has only been exacerbated by the idiocy known as Scribing.
This Cloak change won't affect one iota anything you and others like you hate about fighting that stealthy Brawler Nightblade build. They don't use Cloak in a way that the lack of Magicka regen will bother them one bit. They know to only hit Cloak once every 4 - 6 seconds and will regen enough Magicka between casts to still do what you hate.
Bottom line is that all this stupid change does is frustrate the 99% of other Nightblades who don't play in a playstyle that you don't like.
And please, don't forget to tell us, what class are you maining in Cyrodiil.
Just to be clear I was saying that brawler blades with cloak that are hard to kill do exist but not that I hate them specifically. They are just an example of the class being able to put all those things together and how that's an issue of it's own.
The problematic NB for me is the one that spans cloak between pretty much every rotation of attacks and that knows how to use speed and a big heal to get around the counter and heal through damage in the cases where they get caught by the counter but want to get out of it and back to cloak.
The problem is that it's become so easy to do this that you have bg matches like the one I was in yesterday where five players across all teams were NB which isn't the worst thing but just starts to take away from the fun when you go to attack and the player disappears and you have to figure out how many of those 5 are about to attack you out of nowhere.
Again I don't mind nbs using cloak or that I need to understand how and when to use my counters. I mind that the counters are easier than they need to get around at that the NB in general doesn't care about rewarding judicious use of stealth.
And no I don't want to even extend the time on detect or range or anything like that. I just need to know the opponent is having to make smart choices just like I am rather than being able to just get around having to.
So for me I play sorc. So here's an example of what I mean. Sorc shield are busted and sorc with scribing is busted.
I don't use scribing skills and I play at mag around 40k usually. I play this way because I find it more rewarding to play something off meta that I built that's fun vs something cookie cutter that's busted because that's just not very fun for me in taking advantage of busted aspects of the game.
The other day I just happened to be standing in a dueling area and someone challenged me on a warden and couldn't kill me with the charm storm combo so they got on a busted sorc and killed me then squatted me and said I run and too much and my sorc was trash. I put on a set that I keep for sweatier bgs and then showed that person that they couldn't touch me if I really was anything near the busted meta.
I say so that to say that I understand and appreciate the difference between rewarding gameplay and busted gameplay. To me cloak combined with power creep in terms of healing damage and speed gets into the busted gameplay zone and away from the rewarding gameplay zone I'm looking for0 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭I've only played once this whole patch, but it was for a couple of hours in cyro. TBH I didn't notice any significant difference in cloak's viability this patch or the previous patch.
There are still plenty of successful gankers out there too.1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »I've only played once this whole patch, but it was for a couple of hours in cyro. TBH I didn't notice any significant difference in cloak's viability this patch or the previous patch.
There are still plenty of successful gankers out there too.
I wouldn't think this would affect gankers as much because they go straight for the kill and can somewhat be killed on a failed gank. It's the cloak spammers that would likely feel this change. The ones that try to make cloaking 3x or more part of the fight.1 -
Aggrovious✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »I've only played once this whole patch, but it was for a couple of hours in cyro. TBH I didn't notice any significant difference in cloak's viability this patch or the previous patch.
There are still plenty of successful gankers out there too.
I wouldn't think this would affect gankers as much because they go straight for the kill and can somewhat be killed on a failed gank. It's the cloak spammers that would likely feel this change. The ones that try to make cloaking 3x or more part of the fight.
you don't run detection potions lolMaking a game fun should be a priority. Making a game balanced should not come at the expense of fun.2 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Aggrovious wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »I've only played once this whole patch, but it was for a couple of hours in cyro. TBH I didn't notice any significant difference in cloak's viability this patch or the previous patch.
There are still plenty of successful gankers out there too.
I wouldn't think this would affect gankers as much because they go straight for the kill and can somewhat be killed on a failed gank. It's the cloak spammers that would likely feel this change. The ones that try to make cloaking 3x or more part of the fight.
you don't run detection potions lol
These are fairly useless against a NB that understands how to combine burst heals, hots ,movement speed, roll dodges, offensive pressure, etc. Not all at once but just in variations.
I use detect potions from time to time but mostly they're effective against bad nbs that don't have a backup plan. I'm also usually not fighting just one opponent so I have to manage when to activate detection so that I have buffs as well. I also still lose prophecy just to do this so my damage goes down when I need it to be up for this small burst window that can easily be avoided by the enemy.
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bladenick✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Aggrovious wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »I've only played once this whole patch, but it was for a couple of hours in cyro. TBH I didn't notice any significant difference in cloak's viability this patch or the previous patch.
There are still plenty of successful gankers out there too.
I wouldn't think this would affect gankers as much because they go straight for the kill and can somewhat be killed on a failed gank. It's the cloak spammers that would likely feel this change. The ones that try to make cloaking 3x or more part of the fight.
you don't run detection potions lol
These are fairly useless against a NB that understands how to combine burst heals, hots ,movement speed, roll dodges, offensive pressure, etc. Not all at once but just in variations.
I use detect potions from time to time but mostly they're effective against bad nbs that don't have a backup plan. I'm also usually not fighting just one opponent so I have to manage when to activate detection so that I have buffs as well. I also still lose prophecy just to do this so my damage goes down when I need it to be up for this small burst window that can easily be avoided by the enemy.
That critical part, even with nerf of cloak, in an open map, hit and run or kill and run with stem ganker NB by using cloak is sort of OP, detect pot only make sense if you get a least 2 v 1 senario
This is seriously problem even in old BG, but with new 2 side BG roll out, this sort of NB play style never be the problem , even the NB itself force to find a away to fight in certain area and don’t run away with cloak
The most hurt is mag melee NB, pre U44 with high mag regeneration , it get very good survival in melee range, but now it gone, use Cloak for survival ? Soon will found no mag to cast conceal weapon
Edited by bladenick on 14 November 2024 01:481