Nightblade changes

DrSlaughtr

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

Yes. I got that. So what? That still doesn't explain why Cloak needs a nerf. I'm not saying it doesn't need one, but I'm saying your argument doesn't support that it needs one. I could easily reframe your argument about brawling by saying Cloak is so bad that you can function without it.

Lol you can't reframe my argument to make Cloak look bad at all because I was gimping myself not using Cloak. These are the things I gave up for not using Cloak:

- 10% extra damage for Concealed Weapon
- 300 extra spell damage from stage 2 vamp
- Guaranteed crit for my next direct dmg attack

Even if I get revealed instantly, I am still gaining a huge offensive and defensive advantage. There are no arguments you can make to put Cloak under a bad light, sorry.

Caecus0 wrote: »

I don't need to record that brawling is easy. You literally did that for me with a "copy/pasted build from your Sorc" on a NB that you said you haven't played since 2022. Even if I post a video doing the same thing, it adds nothing that you haven't already added. I also never said it was the easiest thing to do. I said it is easier to Brawl than it is to gank intermediate players that are situationally aware. A good example of this is using a gank build in a high MMR Battleground. It simply won't be as good because players will be on to you and know how to deal with you.

Maybe I am just a good player? You said it yourself. It's more about the player behind the build right?

I can guarantee you many people in Cyrodiil are running around in a brawler build and are still getting folded left and right. You trying to dismiss the skill involved to survive outnumbered doesn't make your argument look strong at all. Surviving against 5+ enemies in a non-dedicated tank build is always difficult, regardless of what spec you're on. It doesn't matter if you're in 40k resists or 20k resists. If you don't keep up a solid defensive rotation, you are not surviving anything.

Caecus0 wrote: »

Please answer my question: what is it you are arguing for ZoS to do with Cloak? Several people in this thread, including myself, are okay with a nerf as long as it isn't a janky as heck toggle, or making the toggle cost Magicka every 1 second instead of 2. I've personally suggested a Scaling cost because it seems sensible as a starting point since they fixed the DoT bug in U43.

I am arguing for a ramping cost increase. In fact, you can type in the search bar and see how many threads asking for Cloak to receive a ramping cost:




In fact, there is a 25 page thread about giving Cloak a ramping cost since July 2023:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638298/ramping-cost-for-nightblade-cloak/p1

You know what happened? Many NB mains didn't want Cloak to be changed. I'm sorry but you guys brought this upon yourself. We already tried to give you a more reasonable change but you guys didn't listen. You guys never wanted Cloak nerfed, so when ZOS does their usual stuff with over nerfing things, don't complain about it lol.

I don't really have a dog in this fight but you're 100% right about this observation.

It is natural for players to argue that their gravy train should continue because we're all self-interested... but in the end the nerfbat comes for us all (laughs in Necro main).

If Cloak had received the ramping treatment years ago then this entire situation likely wouldn't be happening at all. But instead we heard why adding a ramping cost would totally kill the class, be completely unplayable, etc. Which, of course, wasn't true. But it was a convenient argument that bought a few more patch cycles of the gravy train.

(Anyone still defending Hardened Ward and MagSorcs should probably take note of how this situation played out as well. The pro tip is to take the small L now to avoid taking the bigger L later.)

Alternative argument: If ramping cost made no difference, it wouldn't have stopped people from bemoaning nightblades. It's almost like PVPers will complain about everything that snaps a twig and kills them.

Caecus0

StaticWave wrote: »

I am arguing for a ramping cost increase

You made no such specific argument in this thread until I asked you for one. You only vaguely stated that it SHOULD be nerfed and that it has no business working the way it currently does.

StaticWave wrote: »

Cloak in its current state on the live server is why it deserves to be nerfed. I'm sorry but that is the truth. You have the advantage of stealth already, and if you fail to kill me with the first combo, there is no reason for you to disappear again with Cloak without any drawbacks. My only counter for that is a 15s detect pot which you can counter by stacking high movement speed and spamming dodge rolls. The moment my pot expires I basically have zero reliable counter. Not to mention how much sustain I'm giving up when using a detect pot.

How is that not broken?

Completely ignoring the fact that more counters exist than Pots. There are reveals in this game other than Pots.

You then made the point you can play without Cloak just fine.

StaticWave wrote: »

A typical build doesn't crutch on 1 specific skill. You have to account for many variables like # of enemies, what kind of debuffs you will take, how many snares will be applied, etc. If your entire build falls apart because of 1 change, then that build is not a good build.

So to demonstrate my point, here is a clip of me on a brawler NB without Cloak:

https://youtu.be/8jLkBfvnAW8

I have no problem tanking and kiting 4-5 people on my own without needing Cloak. I built this spec just like how I build every other spec by addressing the necessary variables. In other words, I adjusted and built around a nerf.

You very clearly framed your argument as being able to play without Cloak just fine on a copy/pasted Brawler build. When I pointed out that this could just as easily be framed to show Cloak isn't as strong as people think, this was your response:

StaticWave wrote: »

Lol you can't reframe my argument to make Cloak look bad at all because I was gimping myself not using Cloak. These are the things I gave up for not using Cloak:

- 10% extra damage for Concealed Weapon
- 300 extra spell damage from stage 2 vamp
- Guaranteed crit for my next direct dmg attack

Even if I get revealed instantly, I am still gaining a huge offensive and defensive advantage. There are no arguments you can make to put Cloak under a bad light, sorry.

So you went from "I can do this fine by fine-tuning my build" to "I am gimping myself" because you are losing Stats. Why not just fine-tune your build around that then? I thought the fact Cloak was broken was because of the invis itself, not the stats? It's like you are trying to show that Cloak is a crutch, but not for you because you are apparently so good.

StaticWave wrote: »

Maybe I am just a good player? You said it yourself. It's more about the player behind the build right?

StaticWave wrote: »

Yes, I agree that it depends on the player, but it's generally easier and more forgiving to sit in stealth and take on 1 player from stealth than to be completely out there and taking on 4-5 players without Cloak.

Taking on 1 Player is generally easier than taking in 4-5 players in ANY scenario. It's apples and oranges. Yes, it takes skill to survive outnumbered fights. The squishier you are, the harder it is to survive those scenarios.

Is it harder to take on 4-5 Players as a Brawler, or a Ganker? Or, better yet, is it harder for a Ganker to fight a Brawler, or for a Brawler to Fight a Ganker? I'd argue the latter 100% of the time every time. I suppose the only problem is if they try to run away using Cloak.. Which is why you should generally bring literally any reveal.

All arguing for the sake of arguing aside, because I don't live on the forums enough to address literally every point everyone makes. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way, but it gets very tiresome to nail down straightforward points when you seem to be make different points at a time. I don't think you realize that it often comes off as you sometimes contradicting your own points attempting to argue more than 1 point at a time, which is what I am trying to show you above.

It's like, imagine ZoS were going to nerf Streak HARD, and Sorcs were discussing if the nerfs are going too far (with some going as far as dramatically claiming they are killing the class). Then imagine I came in and just started saying it deserves the nerfs because no class should be able to run away as hard as Sorcs can. Then to counter the doom-and-gloomers, I attempt to prove that the class can function without it by posting a video of me on my Sorc not using Streak on a copy/pasted Brawler build, telling the doom-and-gloomers to just use a Brawler build like everyone else. This is all while simultaneously claiming Streak a massive crutch that needs to be toned down. It just begs the question what point you're actually trying to prove.

That all being said, I want to end it on a note where we agree. I've spent way too much time on this thread.

StaticWave wrote: »

The thing is Cloak DESERVED a nerf. There is no question or argument to support Cloak in its current state on the live server. Now you could make an argument that Cloak could have been nerfed differently and that I agree with, but Cloak as a whole needs to be nerfed some way or another.

This I agree with ever since U43. In one of the threads you posted, I literally posted in one of them that I would be okay with a ramping cost on the condition they made Cloak more reliable, because of the random stuff ripping Cloak. It seems they fixed it in U43. If they also fixed Blight Seed stacks ripping Cloak, I am fine with it, especially given the changes to Siphoning Attacks as well. It's like, yeah, it's more expensive, but at least it's more reliable now.

If ZoS REALLY wanted to make it a toggle, they could at least make it cost Magicka every 1 second instead of every 2. It's just plain weird because 2 seconds will cost 3200, but 3 will suddenly cost 6400.


EDIT (1 day later): So I played PvP for a bit for the past few days, and I have to take back what I said about the scaling cost. There are still plenty of things that rip Cloak that really aren't supposed to, including certain DoTs. While these issues persist in making Cloak unreliable, I'm not in favor of a scaling cost. Once Cloak is fixed so that the only thing that rips it are Reveals and AoEs, then the scaling cost is in my opinion warranted.

ioResult

Caecus0 wrote: »

If ZoS REALLY wanted to make it a toggle, they could at least make it cost Magicka every 1 second instead of every 2. It's just plain weird because 2 seconds will cost 3200, but 3 will suddenly cost 6400.

I asked for this in multiple bug reports that I submitted on PTS. I suggest every Nightblade that still tries to use Shadowy Disguise when the new patch comes out file the same bug.

My guess is that ZOS Devs are trying to reduce the server load on GCD by having the server only check the toggle state every OTHER Global Cooldown. So who knows if they'll ever fix it to every second cost, but it won't hurt for everyone to file bugs when it goes live.

Alchimiste1

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.

In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.

You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.

The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.

Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.

STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?

I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol

Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.

Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.

Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.

So what build do you use ?
I'll try it out and give my honest thoughts on nb then.

@ioResult same for you. Give me the setup and I'll try it out.

Caecus0

ioResult wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

If ZoS REALLY wanted to make it a toggle, they could at least make it cost Magicka every 1 second instead of every 2. It's just plain weird because 2 seconds will cost 3200, but 3 will suddenly cost 6400.

I asked for this in multiple bug reports that I submitted on PTS. I suggest every Nightblade that still tries to use Shadowy Disguise when the new patch comes out file the same bug.

My guess is that ZOS Devs are trying to reduce the server load on GCD by having the server only check the toggle state every OTHER Global Cooldown. So who knows if they'll ever fix it to every second cost, but it won't hurt for everyone to file bugs when it goes live.

I think you are giving ZoS too much credit given Ash Cloud being a toggle that costs magicka every 1 second.

I also think it is funny players who complain about Cloak in its current state are ignoring Streak.

DrSlaughtr

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.

In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.

You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.

The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.

Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.

STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?

I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol

Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.

Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.

Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.

So what build do you use ?
I'll try it out and give my honest thoughts on nb then.

@ioResult same for you. Give me the setup and I'll try it out.

It's not what you wear. It's how you play. Just like every other class.

If all you want to do is sneak and strike low health targets, you'll come away thinking it's easy to play nb. If you attack much stronger targets and fight in closer quarters, you'll have greater difficulty.

I cloak to set up my rotation and then attack. I then fight more brawler like. I prefer attacking targets with over 35k health OR other nightblades. That's the most fun.

Look at it like this. It's it hard playing a sorc who only jumps around LAing with shields up and streaking away whenever anyone gets near? No. But that doesn't mean every sorc build is easy and most don't play that way in my experience.

Alchimiste1

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.

In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.

You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.

The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.

Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.

STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?

I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol

Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.

Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.

Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.

So what build do you use ?
I'll try it out and give my honest thoughts on nb then.

@ioResult same for you. Give me the setup and I'll try it out.

It's not what you wear. It's how you play. Just like every other class.

If all you want to do is sneak and strike low health targets, you'll come away thinking it's easy to play nb. If you attack much stronger targets and fight in closer quarters, you'll have greater difficulty.

I cloak to set up my rotation and then attack. I then fight more brawler like. I prefer attacking targets with over 35k health OR other nightblades. That's the most fun.

Look at it like this. It's it hard playing a sorc who only jumps around LAing with shields up and streaking away whenever anyone gets near? No. But that doesn't mean every sorc build is easy and most don't play that way in my experience.

If you mean something like traditional 2h/bow nb then it’s unfortunate but ZOS kinda killed that playstyle when they introduced hybridization.

I’ll agree that for that playstyle, where rally is the only burst heal, cloak is vital to its survivability. That being said the game has changed and as much as I would like for them to revert hybridization I doubt they will.

boi_anachronism_

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Major both of these statements can’t be true “anyhow a NBs damage isn't more than most other classes it's just less avoidable”… “it just has 2 of the hardest hitting abilities in the game“… pick one

Dr every nightblade plays like that. Seeing a nightblade that doesn’t spam cloak is like seeing a unicorn.

Element of surprise is a huge advantage in a fight, balancing it so it doesn’t get abused is a long overdue change

Guess i was a unicorn. I only ever used cloak on a blade in pvp when it was spec'ed as a healer.

Caecus0

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.

In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.

You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.

The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.

Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.

STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?

I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol

Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.

Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.

Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.

So what build do you use ?
I'll try it out and give my honest thoughts on nb then.

@ioResult same for you. Give me the setup and I'll try it out.

It's not what you wear. It's how you play. Just like every other class.

If all you want to do is sneak and strike low health targets, you'll come away thinking it's easy to play nb. If you attack much stronger targets and fight in closer quarters, you'll have greater difficulty.

I cloak to set up my rotation and then attack. I then fight more brawler like. I prefer attacking targets with over 35k health OR other nightblades. That's the most fun.

Look at it like this. It's it hard playing a sorc who only jumps around LAing with shields up and streaking away whenever anyone gets near? No. But that doesn't mean every sorc build is easy and most don't play that way in my experience.

Huh, that's funny. You play like I do. I occupy a weird space between brawler and ganker on my NB.

I also discovered these past few days that even though ZoS fixed Structured Entropy and Weakness to Elements removing Cloak, that is literally all they fixed, and even then, not entirely. Weakness to Elements still occasionally removes Cloak for no apparent reason (or at least, not that I can find. I'll do some testing to see if I can find a pattern). There are also other things that can remove Cloak, including Way of Fire (when it is procced by DoTs), Tarnished Nightmare (when procced by DoTs), and gaining Blight Seed stacks still removes Cloak. Not just the EXPLOSION. The STACKS.

Yeah, I take back the scaling cost thing. As long as Cloak can still be removed by random nonsense that isn't direct damage AoEs and/or reveals, I can't say I'm in favor of a scaling cost.

bladenick

ioResult wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

If ZoS REALLY wanted to make it a toggle, they could at least make it cost Magicka every 1 second instead of every 2. It's just plain weird because 2 seconds will cost 3200, but 3 will suddenly cost 6400.

I asked for this in multiple bug reports that I submitted on PTS. I suggest every Nightblade that still tries to use Shadowy Disguise when the new patch comes out file the same bug.

My guess is that ZOS Devs are trying to reduce the server load on GCD by having the server only check the toggle state every OTHER Global Cooldown. So who knows if they'll ever fix it to every second cost, but it won't hurt for everyone to file bugs when it goes live.

God, such awful bug, damn

bladenick

Caecus0 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.

In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.

You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.

The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.

Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.

STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?

I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol

Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.

Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.

Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.

So what build do you use ?
I'll try it out and give my honest thoughts on nb then.

@ioResult same for you. Give me the setup and I'll try it out.

It's not what you wear. It's how you play. Just like every other class.

If all you want to do is sneak and strike low health targets, you'll come away thinking it's easy to play nb. If you attack much stronger targets and fight in closer quarters, you'll have greater difficulty.

I cloak to set up my rotation and then attack. I then fight more brawler like. I prefer attacking targets with over 35k health OR other nightblades. That's the most fun.

Look at it like this. It's it hard playing a sorc who only jumps around LAing with shields up and streaking away whenever anyone gets near? No. But that doesn't mean every sorc build is easy and most don't play that way in my experience.

Huh, that's funny. You play like I do. I occupy a weird space between brawler and ganker on my NB.

I also discovered these past few days that even though ZoS fixed Structured Entropy and Weakness to Elements removing Cloak, that is literally all they fixed, and even then, not entirely. Weakness to Elements still occasionally removes Cloak for no apparent reason (or at least, not that I can find. I'll do some testing to see if I can find a pattern). There are also other things that can remove Cloak, including Way of Fire (when it is procced by DoTs), Tarnished Nightmare (when procced by DoTs), and gaining Blight Seed stacks still removes Cloak. Not just the EXPLOSION. The STACKS.

Yeah, I take back the scaling cost thing. As long as Cloak can still be removed by random nonsense that isn't direct damage AoEs and/or reveals, I can't say I'm in favor of a scaling cost.

Had repot this in U43 bug report post, entropy sometime still reveal stealth, but I guess Dev won’t look into it

StaticWave

Caecus0 wrote: »

You made no such specific argument in this thread until I asked you for one. You only vaguely stated that it SHOULD be nerfed and that it has no business working the way it currently does.

I've been very vocal about Cloak needing a ramping cost in many threads

Caecus0 wrote: »

Completely ignoring the fact that more counters exist than Pots. There are reveals in this game other than Pots.

You then made the point you can play without Cloak just fine.

And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.

I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.

Caecus0 wrote: »

You very clearly framed your argument as being able to play without Cloak just fine on a copy/pasted Brawler build. When I pointed out that this could just as easily be framed to show Cloak isn't as strong as people think, this was your response:

StaticWave wrote: »

Lol you can't reframe my argument to make Cloak look bad at all because I was gimping myself not using Cloak. These are the things I gave up for not using Cloak:

- 10% extra damage for Concealed Weapon
- 300 extra spell damage from stage 2 vamp
- Guaranteed crit for my next direct dmg attack

Even if I get revealed instantly, I am still gaining a huge offensive and defensive advantage. There are no arguments you can make to put Cloak under a bad light, sorry.

So you went from "I can do this fine by fine-tuning my build" to "I am gimping myself" because you are losing Stats. Why not just fine-tune your build around that then? I thought the fact Cloak was broken was because of the invis itself, not the stats? It's like you are trying to show that Cloak is a crutch, but not for you because you are apparently so good.

That build was fine tuned for no Cloak. Concealed gives 15% movement speed for just slotting it on the bar and also has a higher tooltip than Surprised Attack. There was no reason for me to take Surprised Attack morph over Concealed, especially for a brawler build.

But that isn't the point. The point is I lost 3 strong offensive buffs without Cloak. Adding Cloak would have made my build much better despite it being a brawler build. I could drop damage to build tankier, or keep my current stats and do more damage than the no Cloak version.

You can't really frame any argument to make Cloak look bad because it gives too many advantages. But please do it anyway because I would love to prove you wrong lol.

Caecus0 wrote: »

Taking on 1 Player is generally easier than taking in 4-5 players in ANY scenario. It's apples and oranges. Yes, it takes skill to survive outnumbered fights. The squishier you are, the harder it is to survive those scenarios.

Is it harder to take on 4-5 Players as a Brawler, or a Ganker? Or, better yet, is it harder for a Ganker to fight a Brawler, or for a Brawler to Fight a Ganker? I'd argue the latter 100% of the time every time. I suppose the only problem is if they try to run away using Cloak.. Which is why you should generally bring literally any reveal.

Right, the squishier you are the harder it is to survive, but there are also ways to work around that squishiness. Magsorc for example is "squishy" on paper, but tanky in practice because of Hardened Ward. Sniker on a rollerblade using Lefthander mythic is also "squishy" on paper, but tanky in practice because he has a 21k shield every time he rolls, while in max damage so his heals are jacked and he can 1 shot you anytime from stealth.

I'm not sure why bringing a reveal is a valid argument when it's only good against 1 spec. You are suggesting everyone puts on a reveal to counter 1 class in the game. Even Streak/BoL can be countered without making that massive sacrifice...

Caecus0 wrote: »

It's like, imagine ZoS were going to nerf Streak HARD, and Sorcs were discussing if the nerfs are going too far (with some going as far as dramatically claiming they are killing the class). Then imagine I came in and just started saying it deserves the nerfs because no class should be able to run away as hard as Sorcs can. Then to counter the doom-and-gloomers, I attempt to prove that the class can function without it by posting a video of me on my Sorc not using Streak on a copy/pasted Brawler build, telling the doom-and-gloomers to just use a Brawler build like everyone else. This is all while simultaneously claiming Streak a massive crutch that needs to be toned down. It just begs the question what point you're actually trying to prove.

That all being said, I want to end it on a note where we agree. I've spent way too much time on this thread.

I am ok if they nerf Streak. Sorc has been given plenty of tools to survive recently that you don't really need it anymore. Now if they could also finish hybridization on Sorc then I will drop Streak for a better skill.

warm_blanket

Just as an aside, u44 cloak is stronger than what you have now.

The only case where it's worse is if you want to run around while leaving it on.

Even then you can play with your return ticks to get around the mag drain.

Tommy_The_Gun

warm_blanket wrote: »

Just as an aside, u44 cloak is stronger than what you have now.

The only case where it's worse is if you want to run around while leaving it on.

Even then you can play with your return ticks to get around the mag drain.

I am not sure if I understood you correctly.

You are saying that cloak on PTS is stronger vs Live, but if I will try to use it & "run around" from point A to B with cloak toggled "on", then PTS cloak is worse than on Live...

If so, then I agree with you. You are 100% correct.

DrSlaughtr

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.

In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.

You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.

The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.

Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.

STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?

I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol

Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.

Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.

Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.

So what build do you use ?
I'll try it out and give my honest thoughts on nb then.

@ioResult same for you. Give me the setup and I'll try it out.

It's not what you wear. It's how you play. Just like every other class.

If all you want to do is sneak and strike low health targets, you'll come away thinking it's easy to play nb. If you attack much stronger targets and fight in closer quarters, you'll have greater difficulty.

I cloak to set up my rotation and then attack. I then fight more brawler like. I prefer attacking targets with over 35k health OR other nightblades. That's the most fun.

Look at it like this. It's it hard playing a sorc who only jumps around LAing with shields up and streaking away whenever anyone gets near? No. But that doesn't mean every sorc build is easy and most don't play that way in my experience.

If you mean something like traditional 2h/bow nb then it’s unfortunate but ZOS kinda killed that playstyle when they introduced hybridization.

I’ll agree that for that playstyle, where rally is the only burst heal, cloak is vital to its survivability. That being said the game has changed and as much as I would like for them to revert hybridization I doubt they will.

I do DW/2H. The only range skill I run is silver. I use forward momentum instead of rally because it's better for my stamina sustain. I use healing soul for heal.

DrSlaughtr

StaticWave wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

You made no such specific argument in this thread until I asked you for one. You only vaguely stated that it SHOULD be nerfed and that it has no business working the way it currently does.

I've been very vocal about Cloak needing a ramping cost in many threads

Caecus0 wrote: »

Completely ignoring the fact that more counters exist than Pots. There are reveals in this game other than Pots.

You then made the point you can play without Cloak just fine.

And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.

I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.

Caecus0 wrote: »

You very clearly framed your argument as being able to play without Cloak just fine on a copy/pasted Brawler build. When I pointed out that this could just as easily be framed to show Cloak isn't as strong as people think, this was your response:

StaticWave wrote: »

Lol you can't reframe my argument to make Cloak look bad at all because I was gimping myself not using Cloak. These are the things I gave up for not using Cloak:

- 10% extra damage for Concealed Weapon
- 300 extra spell damage from stage 2 vamp
- Guaranteed crit for my next direct dmg attack

Even if I get revealed instantly, I am still gaining a huge offensive and defensive advantage. There are no arguments you can make to put Cloak under a bad light, sorry.

So you went from "I can do this fine by fine-tuning my build" to "I am gimping myself" because you are losing Stats. Why not just fine-tune your build around that then? I thought the fact Cloak was broken was because of the invis itself, not the stats? It's like you are trying to show that Cloak is a crutch, but not for you because you are apparently so good.

That build was fine tuned for no Cloak. Concealed gives 15% movement speed for just slotting it on the bar and also has a higher tooltip than Surprised Attack. There was no reason for me to take Surprised Attack morph over Concealed, especially for a brawler build.

But that isn't the point. The point is I lost 3 strong offensive buffs without Cloak. Adding Cloak would have made my build much better despite it being a brawler build. I could drop damage to build tankier, or keep my current stats and do more damage than the no Cloak version.

You can't really frame any argument to make Cloak look back because it gives too many advantages. But please do it anyway because I would love to prove you wrong lol.

Caecus0 wrote: »

Taking on 1 Player is generally easier than taking in 4-5 players in ANY scenario. It's apples and oranges. Yes, it takes skill to survive outnumbered fights. The squishier you are, the harder it is to survive those scenarios.

Is it harder to take on 4-5 Players as a Brawler, or a Ganker? Or, better yet, is it harder for a Ganker to fight a Brawler, or for a Brawler to Fight a Ganker? I'd argue the latter 100% of the time every time. I suppose the only problem is if they try to run away using Cloak.. Which is why you should generally bring literally any reveal.

Right, the squishier you are the harder it is to survive, but there are also ways to work around that squishiness. Magsorc for example is "squishy" on paper, but tanky in practice because of Hardened Ward. Sniker on a rollerblade using Lefthander mythic is also "squishy" on paper, but tanky in practice because he has a 21k shield every time he rolls, while in max damage so his heals are jacked and he can 1 shot you anytime from stealth.

I'm not sure why bringing a reveal is a valid argument when it's only good against 1 spec. You are suggesting everyone puts on a reveal to counter 1 class in the game. Even Streak/BoL can be countered without making that massive sacrifice...

Caecus0 wrote: »

It's like, imagine ZoS were going to nerf Streak HARD, and Sorcs were discussing if the nerfs are going too far (with some going as far as dramatically claiming they are killing the class). Then imagine I came in and just started saying it deserves the nerfs because no class should be able to run away as hard as Sorcs can. Then to counter the doom-and-gloomers, I attempt to prove that the class can function without it by posting a video of me on my Sorc not using Streak on a copy/pasted Brawler build, telling the doom-and-gloomers to just use a Brawler build like everyone else. This is all while simultaneously claiming Streak a massive crutch that needs to be toned down. It just begs the question what point you're actually trying to prove.

That all being said, I want to end it on a note where we agree. I've spent way too much time on this thread.

I am ok if they nerf Streak. Sorc has been given plenty of tools to survive recently that you don't really need it anymore. Now if they could also finish hybridization on Sorc then I will drop Streak for a better skill.

Literally the same arguments over and over.

1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.

2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.

No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.

"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.

3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.

4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.

5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.

Tommy_The_Gun

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.

I think it was brought up already in all "nerf cloak" threads, that NBs for the most part would be fine with ramping cost, but only if all of the other hard counters & detection skills & potions would be either toned down with a very heavy nerf hammer or removed / altered. Cuz having ramping cost ON TOP of the hard counters would be too much, even for the most experienced & skilled PvP NB players. I mean, ZOS chosen this way of balancing. Skills that provide rapid displacement like Streak or Valut have ramping cost as they do not have hard counters (things that actively prevent the use or cancel the effect). They only have soft counters (like gap closer).

That is why (thankfully) they did not added ramping cost, but instead went for mag recovery block & made cloak a toggle. And I do not believe that last part (altering how skill works after 10 years) was necessary & fair as it will bring an opposite result vs what they intend & a whole pandora box of other issues (which was already discussed to death).

Tbh, they could have kept cloak as it is (cast skill) & just keep balancing it out with mag cost block or maybe a magicka recovery "ramping reduction", so at 1st there is none, but after 5th use of cloak it is reduced by 50%, after 10th use by 90% etc.

Also... maybe I am wrong but the thing that I have noticed in all of those threads is that apparently, after all this years, sorcs are still salty about streak receiving ramping cost in a 1st place. I mean I think they were the 1st class that received this "balancing decision" (nerf) and it must have been rough, since it is easy nowadays to recognise sorc main (or at least player who was sorc main at some point). As soon as: "I have an idea how to balance this out ! Just add ramping cost !" is mentioned, then you just know it for 101%. IDK It is "their thing" I guess

DrSlaughtr

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.

I think it was brought up already in all "nerf cloak" threads, that NBs for the most part would be fine with ramping cost, but only if all of the other hard counters & detection skills & potions would be either toned down with a very heavy nerf hammer or removed / altered. Cuz having ramping cost ON TOP of the hard counters would be too much, even for the most experienced & skilled PvP NB players. I mean, ZOS chosen this way of balancing. Skills that provide rapid displacement like Streak or Valut have ramping cost as they do not have hard counters (things that actively prevent the use or cancel the effect). They only have soft counters (like gap closer).

That is why (thankfully) they did not added ramping cost, but instead went for mag recovery block & made cloak a toggle. And I do not believe that last part (altering how skill works after 10 years) was necessary & fair as it will bring an opposite result vs what they intend & a whole pandora box of other issues (which was already discussed to death).

Tbh, they could have keep cloak as it is (cast skill) & just keep balancing it out with mag cost block or maybe a magicka recovery "ramping reduction", so at 1st there is none, but after 5th use of cloak it is reduced by 50%, after 10th use by 90% etc.

Also... maybe I am wrong but the thing that I have noticed in all of those threads is that apparently, after all this years, sorcs are still salty about streak receiving ramping cost in a 1st place. I mean I think they were the 1st class that received this "balancing decision" (nerf) and it must have been rough, since it is easy nowadays to recognise sorc main (or at least player who was sorc main at some point). As soon as: "I have an idea how to balance this out ! Just add ramping cost !" is mentioned, then you just know for 101%. IDK It is "their thing" I guess

Yeah you pretty much hit he nail on the head. Players were given better detect skills. Not good enough. Longer range detect pots. Not good enough. Sets blocked from being used from stealth. Various other ways to directly or indirectly counter a NB that have been brought up ad nauseum. Even if they left cloak as it was the first couple PTS patches, in 2 months guess what we'd see?

"Range NBs killing me not fair."

Nothing ZOS can do to hurt NBs will ever be enough unless cloak is outright removed from play.

And as you stated, there is no "you can't streak" skill or potion, and that is why it got a ramping cost. I still see people streaking 3 times in a row, so it seems to be rather fine.

I think a certain percentage of the player base doesn't want change for themselves, but they absolutely want everyone else's builds to change to fit what best becomes a killable target for them.

Caecus0

warm_blanket wrote: »

Just as an aside, u44 cloak is stronger than what you have now.

The only case where it's worse is if you want to run around while leaving it on.

Even then you can play with your return ticks to get around the mag drain.

I've heard multiple people say that and when I asked, I haven't received an answer. Could you please elaborate on this please?

LittlePinkDot

"The point is I lost 3 strong offensive buffs without Cloak. Adding Cloak would have made my build much better despite it being a brawler build. I could drop damage to build tankier, or keep my current stats and do more damage than the no Cloak version.

You can't really frame any argument to make Cloak look bad because it gives too many advantages. But please do it anyway because I would love to prove you wrong lol."

this 👆 I can relate to. Dark cloak just doesn't have enough oomph. The major savagery on shadowy disguise is just too good.

StaticWave

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.

Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:

StaticWave wrote: »

And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.

I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.

I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.

Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.

And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.

Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.

This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.

??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.

You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.

Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.

Caecus0

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.

In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.

You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.

The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.

Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.

STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?

I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol

Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.

Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.

Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.

So what build do you use ?
I'll try it out and give my honest thoughts on nb then.

@ioResult same for you. Give me the setup and I'll try it out.

It's not what you wear. It's how you play. Just like every other class.

If all you want to do is sneak and strike low health targets, you'll come away thinking it's easy to play nb. If you attack much stronger targets and fight in closer quarters, you'll have greater difficulty.

I cloak to set up my rotation and then attack. I then fight more brawler like. I prefer attacking targets with over 35k health OR other nightblades. That's the most fun.

Look at it like this. It's it hard playing a sorc who only jumps around LAing with shields up and streaking away whenever anyone gets near? No. But that doesn't mean every sorc build is easy and most don't play that way in my experience.

If you mean something like traditional 2h/bow nb then it’s unfortunate but ZOS kinda killed that playstyle when they introduced hybridization.

I’ll agree that for that playstyle, where rally is the only burst heal, cloak is vital to its survivability. That being said the game has changed and as much as I would like for them to revert hybridization I doubt they will.

I do DW/2H. The only range skill I run is silver. I use forward momentum instead of rally because it's better for my stamina sustain. I use healing soul for heal.

You and I should do Battlegrounds sometime and theory craft. Despite the NB population, I Don't know a lot of NB mains I can talk about builds with.

Alchimiste1

Dw/2h with silver bolt is sounding kind of like a gank build tbh.

warm_blanket

Caecus0 wrote: »

warm_blanket wrote: »

Just as an aside, u44 cloak is stronger than what you have now.

The only case where it's worse is if you want to run around while leaving it on.

Even then you can play with your return ticks to get around the mag drain.

I've heard multiple people say that and when I asked, I haven't received an answer. Could you please elaborate on this please?

Sure. It's now much cheaper to cast when you need to proc its buffs, and the guaranteed crit no longer expires after 3s.

No matter your playstyle you've been granted more leniency when setting up your burst. If you weren't using ulfsilds already you'll want to give it a try now.

The mag drain while moving is a defensive nerf, but there are enough ways to deal with it that the changes as a whole make cloak much better.

Caecus0

warm_blanket wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

warm_blanket wrote: »

Just as an aside, u44 cloak is stronger than what you have now.

The only case where it's worse is if you want to run around while leaving it on.

Even then you can play with your return ticks to get around the mag drain.

I've heard multiple people say that and when I asked, I haven't received an answer. Could you please elaborate on this please?

Sure. It's now much cheaper to cast when you need to proc its buffs, and the guaranteed crit no longer expires after 3s.

No matter your playstyle you've been granted more leniency when setting up your burst. If you weren't using ulfsilds already you'll want to give it a try now.

The mag drain while moving is a defensive nerf, but there are enough ways to deal with it that the changes as a whole make cloak much better.

I see what you are saying, but I still feel like the "every 2 seconds" cost makes it a little awkward, because 2 seconds will cost ~3200 whereas 3 seconds will suddenly cost 6400, when I'd rather just pay the 4800 for 3 seconds. But I see what you are saying, thanks for clarifying.

DrSlaughtr

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Dw/2h with silver bolt is sounding kind of like a gank build tbh.

I actually use leash. Yank and kill.

DrSlaughtr

StaticWave wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.

Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:

StaticWave wrote: »

And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.

I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.

I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.

Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.

And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.

Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.

This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.

??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.

You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.

Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.

It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.

Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.

But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...

Bushido2513

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

1. Yes, it's pretty easy to avoid 8m circle because it's a big ol world. There's a lot more space outside of it than inside your circle. You can also run a detect bot that comes with other benefits, like immovable, but again, you don't want to do that or change anything about how you play. It's your way or the highway so an entire class should be altered to fit your preference.

Lol, it's almost like you did not read what I said to Caecus:

StaticWave wrote: »

And you think they work reliably? Camo Hunter/Radiant Mage Light have a 8m radius. A NB can stay out of that range indefinitely. Even if you run the 12m morphs, they would still be out of range.

I know this for a fact because I've been using several forms of reveal abilities to counter NBs and the only thing that works reliably is a potion. You can't use this argument in good faith when locational desync exists and the game allows you to easily build high movement speed.

I literally specified that I have tried several forms of reveal abilities and the only thing working reliably was a detect potion. Idk why you're putting words in my mouth and saying that I don't change anything about my playstyle lmao.

Let me be clear to you: My stamsorc runs a Health/Mag/Prophecy potion to save a bar slot. I am literally sacrificing Major Prophecy for 15s of stealth detection. If that's not already a huge sacrifice, idk what is lol.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

2. Yes, if you want to FIGHT NIGHTBLADES WITH CLOAK you should SLOT RELEVANT SKILLS TO DO SO. If you DON'T want to slot those skills then DON'T HUNT NIGHTBLADES. Caps for emphasis. Everyone who thinks like you apparently has never played any other PVP games. This is how PVP works. If there is a type of enemy you want to fight, you have to build to counter their strengths and expose their weaknesses. What you seem to want is to not have to do any of that. You want the developers to do the work for you so that you can have your cake and eat it too.

I'm not hunting NBs. They are HUNTING me. Please think carefully about this argument of yours. I'm not going around in Cyrodiil spamming detect potions or Cloak. I only use them AFTER they initiated their attack.

And for the 2nd time, I do run relevant skills/potions to counter them. It's bold of you to assume I don't.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

No one is forcing you to fight nightblades any more than me being forced to fight sorcs. I do it because I want to, so I run a skill specifically to pull them back after a streak. I slot bastion (even though the damage percentage if significantly too low) because they run shields. It's that simple. I could just let them streak away and go find someone else to fight, and sometimes I do.

Again, I don't force myself to fight NBs. They are intentionally targeting me in Cyrodiil.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

"But they are attacking me," is what I imagine you'll say. So? Evade and defend. You put up enough fight most NBs will leave before some other player jumps on them. Every second they are attacking they are exposed. Team up with other players. Have someone watch your back. Most notably, befriend some nightblade players on your alliance. There's nothing better to keep you safe.

This whole paragraph invalids everything you said earlier lol. You spent 2 paragraphs trying to frame me as being the "NB hunter", when in reality NB players are doing the hunting. Then you try to cover that up with a "just evade and defend" argument lol. Way to shift the blame on the other player and putting the responsibility on them instead of acknowledging clear imbalances of the game.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

3. Concealed doesn't make you 15% faster and I have already proven this in a video posted in another thread. I took two videos of my character running about 50 meters. One had concealed. The other didn't. Same CP. No sets or weapons. No expedition. The concealed weapon character was about .30 seconds faster. People don't understand how percentages work or the way speed is scaled in this game. Does it help? Sure. Is it so significant that you should be upset about it? Absolutely not.

??? Saying 15% movement speed doesn't make you move faster is like saying 300 spell damage doesn't make you do more damage... I'm sorry but your tests were flawed if you came to that conclusion lol.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

4. I'll accept a ramping cost happily when the stealth detection radius of guards is reduced drastically AND their propensity for breaking cloak or making me randomly stand up is fixed. I already have to spend (on LIVE) 16k magicka give or take just getting from the front door of a keep to the wall as is without getting 5 fireballs lobbed at me on repeat and half the flipping courtyard chasing after me.

You still get 3 strong offensive buffs. There's no need for Cloak to work in its current state.

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

5. I say this sincerely and respectfully: You are your worst enemy. You are the reason why you have difficulty fighting nightblades. The day you wake up to this conclusion and decide to listen to advice is the day you start killing them left and right and they no longer haunt your dreams.

Nah, I still kill plenty of them, but I also know what needs balancing and what doesn't. Just because I've killed a ton of NBs and magsorcs spamming shields doesn't mean both of them don't need to be addressed. That's not how balancing works.

It's not my problem as an enemy on the battlefield that you choose to lean on potions for buffs you can get elsewhere rather than using something to kill me, nor should I be punished so that choice is easier for you.

Yes reveal skills are less potent than a potion but you can use them over and over so long as you can sustain them. You're also on a sorc so don't pretend like you can't streak and reveal.

But you're supposedly great at killing NBs without detects so...

Just a note on this from personal experience. Spamming reveals is fairly useless when your opponent either has good damage, is somewhat competent, or both.

With movement speed and healing being what they are a NB can easily move in and out of detection range and create time to beat the reveal cool down without much issue. The other problem is that they can reposition to a favorable spot after going past the reveal cool down and hit you with another attack even as you have revealed them.

I've spoken out before that the options do work however it should be noted that in the current environment they start to be a lot less potent when your enemy has speed, healing, and understands how to use one or both.

While pots are most reliable the duration can easily be gotten around by someone that knows how to use the above stated well.

Major_Mangle

As much as I agree that cloak could use some adjustment the toggle rework just seems awkward and strange to me.

MincMincMinc

NB mains: heh....only inexperienced nbs spam cloak

also NB mains: but, but, but with a toggle, how will I be able to spam cloak?

---

Too bad nbs spent all pts complaining about the toggle they never tried out. Should have been advocating for a ramp cost instead of the mag cut.