Add a Ramping cost to shadowy disguise

monkidb16_ESO

React wrote: »

Seems like a good change. It should be much harder to perma spam invis cloak, or to be invis more often than not. Exactly what was needed. I think a ramping cost would have sufficed, but this change seems to more aggressively targets the behavior I described, which is fine by me.

It isn't really though, the Siphoning Strikes trick people mentioned a few times should still be possible, so it might even make permastealth easier on Stamblade.

React

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

React wrote: »

Seems like a good change. It should be much harder to perma spam invis cloak, or to be invis more often than not. Exactly what was needed. I think a ramping cost would have sufficed, but this change seems to more aggressively targets the behavior I described, which is fine by me.

It isn't really though, the Siphoning Strikes trick people mentioned a few times should still be possible, so it might even make permastealth easier on Stamblade.

You know this was the first thing that came to my mind, but after some thought I don't think it'll be an issue. However, they could make siphoning cancel cloak if it was. I'd be all for that.

It'll be difficult for them to heal themselves while in cloak if they're spamming siphoning for resources to perma cloak, and they'll often be exiting cloak with very little HP left. It should require more skill and thought than the current cloak spamming we typically see.

System_Data

Cloak change doesn't affect me to be honest, i can still use cloak and get away safely. I'll just idle slightly longer now. Too bad this doesn't really address NBs overloaded kit still. Looking forward to not needing to spam the cloak button and just cruise through.

Aggrovious

React wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

React wrote: »

Looks like you guys should have just accepted the ramping cost reccomendation

should have never been a suggestion at all

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

So now using cloak offensively is cheaper, but using it defensively is more expensive?

I think they managed to *** off everyone with this change.

Seems like a good change. It should be much harder to perma spam invis cloak, or to be invis more often than not. Exactly what was needed. I think a ramping cost would have sufficed, but this change seems to more aggressively target the behavior I described, which is fine by me.

you know you can be permanently invisible by crouching?

Did you not run detection potions? Its easy to spot a Nightblade, but now, ganking is basically done.

:O

Tommy_The_Gun

Do you know what is the worst part ?

It is not the nerf..

It is the fact that some people will still want ramping cost, no matter what ! ! !

Aurielle

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

React wrote: »

Seems like a good change. It should be much harder to perma spam invis cloak, or to be invis more often than not. Exactly what was needed. I think a ramping cost would have sufficed, but this change seems to more aggressively targets the behavior I described, which is fine by me.

It isn't really though, the Siphoning Strikes trick people mentioned a few times should still be possible, so it might even make permastealth easier on Stamblade.

The interplay of the reworked Cloak with Siphoning Attacks will need to be tested extensively, for sure. Two casts of Siphoning Attacks returns 5200 magicka at a cost of 8240 health. Unless the stamNB is also using Rally, it would be pretty difficult to sustain that health drain every two seconds without breaking invisibility.

Tommy_The_Gun

Why do I have a feeling they are changing it into toggle cuz there is a *new* invisibility scribing skill just behind the corner ? ? ? Usually when something that was in a game since... forever is getting randonly changed all of the sudden, it means that they have something new planned, so that it would replace it.

Aurielle

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling they are changing it into toggle cuz there is a *new* invisibility scribing skill just behind the corner ? ? ? Usually when something that was in a game since... forever is getting randonly changed all of the sudden, it means that they have something new planned, so that it would replace the it.

Hopefully not. The last thing I want to see in this game is easy access to in-combat stealth on every class. That takes away a huge aspect of NB's identity and it would just be terribly broken for literally everyone to be popping in and out of stealth in PVP environments.

StarOfElyon

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling they are changing it into toggle cuz there is a *new* invisibility scribing skill just behind the corner ? ? ? Usually when something that was in a game since... forever is getting randonly changed all of the sudden, it means that they have something new planned, so that it would replace it.

Don't worry. They'll ease up on it by the third notes. They just like to make it look like they're going to nerf NBs in the first patch notes.

Aurielle

Did some testing with Siphoning Attacks and Rally. If you activate Shadowy Disguise while not in crouch, sustaining the magicka drain is somewhat challenging. However, if you crouch first, then activate Shadowy Disguise, sustaining the magicka drain is trivial. Not sure if that's intended or not. (EDIT: Not a bug, it's just Darloc Brae. I assumed any set affecting magicka regeneration would be disabled by Shadowy Disguise, but apparently not).

https://youtu.be/OHiQLEl4i0Q

PVE thief roleplayers are busy screaming in General that their class has been killed, but... I dunno, kinda looks like a massive buff to me -- at least based on this first pass of the rework. *shrug*

Tommy_The_Gun

Aurielle wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling they are changing it into toggle cuz there is a *new* invisibility scribing skill just behind the corner ? ? ? Usually when something that was in a game since... forever is getting randonly changed all of the sudden, it means that they have something new planned, so that it would replace the it.

Hopefully not. The last thing I want to see in this game is easy access to in-combat stealth on every class. That takes away a huge aspect of NB's identity and it would just be terribly broken for literally everyone to be popping in and out of stealth in PVP environments.

Unless it is a class scribing skill...

Aurielle

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling they are changing it into toggle cuz there is a *new* invisibility scribing skill just behind the corner ? ? ? Usually when something that was in a game since... forever is getting randonly changed all of the sudden, it means that they have something new planned, so that it would replace the it.

Hopefully not. The last thing I want to see in this game is easy access to in-combat stealth on every class. That takes away a huge aspect of NB's identity and it would just be terribly broken for literally everyone to be popping in and out of stealth in PVP environments.

Unless it is a class scribing skill...

You mean for NBs only? Would be an odd way to try to get more people to buy Gold Road, but I guess I wouldn't put it past them.

Tommy_The_Gun

Aurielle wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling they are changing it into toggle cuz there is a *new* invisibility scribing skill just behind the corner ? ? ? Usually when something that was in a game since... forever is getting randonly changed all of the sudden, it means that they have something new planned, so that it would replace the it.

Hopefully not. The last thing I want to see in this game is easy access to in-combat stealth on every class. That takes away a huge aspect of NB's identity and it would just be terribly broken for literally everyone to be popping in and out of stealth in PVP environments.

Unless it is a class scribing skill...

You mean for NBs only? Would be an odd way to try to get more people to buy Gold Road, but I guess I wouldn't put it past them.

Well, I am not saying they will do it now, but I can imagine an update where all classes get scribing class skill and it is a setup for it.

Amottica

React wrote: »

Looks like you guys should have just accepted the ramping cost reccomendation

Just looking at the costs posted in the patch notes, it is only slightly more costly than it is now. I expect it is difficult to time refreshing cloak exactly at 3 seconds, making the current design more costly in practice for an NB using it to remain invisible for a longer period of time. It also makes it easier for the less skilled NB and they can pop a potion to get a little more magicka. That is what I do on the sorc when I streak away and need some magicka.

So, in practice, this is likely less expensive for the NB, and they should be able to move a decent distance as long as they are not low on magicka to start with. As such, those who are currently challenged killing an NB that uses cloak will still face the same challenge and I see little change for those who use the Available counters.

Tommy_The_Gun

React wrote: »

Looks like you guys should have just accepted the ramping cost reccomendation

With all doe respect, ramping cost would have been far worse.

Sluggy

Aurielle wrote: »

(EDIT: Not a bug, it's just Darloc Brae. I assumed any set affecting magicka regeneration would be disabled by Shadowy Disguise, but apparently not).

Unless that set has changed since I last used it then it doesn't touch regen at all, so it would be expected to work as normal.

Iriidius

A ramping cost with a 3/4 second cooldown means that you have to leave cloak only for (slightly above)0/1 second to reset ramping cost which for an attacking nb is less than the time you are visible when doing a combo but for a nb trying to escape is often a death sentence as chasing enemys will see where the nb is and therefore not loose track of nb.

So a nb could still fight/harass/gank while permacloaked because every attack from stealth would reset the ramping cost but not escape while permacloaked because ramping cost will not reset and force nb to get visible.

Not every nb trying to escape is trying to escape from a failed (Xvgank), like every other class nbs are attacked on sight by almost everyone stronger than them(usually stronger by higher numbers) and cant win because attacker is stronger and have to try to escape if they dont want to die.

Range builds suffer less from ramping cloak cost as they can disengage faster because they are already far away.
Zerglings also suffer less from ramping cloak cost as they can escape faster because the player they try to 1vX gank is busy fighting other players and therefore cant chase them down as easily.
The ones suffering most from ramping cloak cost are players trying to escape unfair unwinable fights by cloaking away.
A nb that is permacloaked without attacking is not hurting anyone and almost like it does not even exist.

So if your problem is players permacloaking while attacking you and not some nb escaping you by permacloak, ramping cloak is not an effektive solution and probably even countereffective (as the permacloaking nb has to keep attacking you to reset ramping cloak cost).

Most of the cloak critics here do not even tell what their problem with permacloak is, only that it has to be removed.

Iriidius

Aurielle wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

At any rate, I was responding to @Aurielle when proposing that. He has been explaining - see his post and video earlier in this thread - how the combination of Rally and Siphoning Attacks might be OP. It allows you to regain resources in cloak, with Siphoning Attacks, while healing away the health cost with Rally. In other words you might use this method to sustain Cloak indefinitely without having to invest in magicka sustain. Invest everything into attack, but have your cake and eat it with this skill combination. At least that's the theory.

Please read post number 57 again and stop putting words in my mouth. The point of that video was not to claim that Rally/Siphoning Attacks was OP. The point of that video was not to demonstrate cloak spam abuse. And the point of that video was certainly not to show good, hardcore combat — because for the most part, that doesn’t really happen in IC, unless you’re deliberately seeking 1vX fights like React.

The point of that video was, once again, to demonstrate to you personally that you do not need to invest heavily into magicka sustain to achieve your playstyle of killing IC mobs, farming Tel Var, and engaging in occasional PVP while being almost constantly invisible.

Fair enough. But it's a moot point if we had ramping Cloak cost. Neither this, nor my current build would work.

It really isn't a moot point. You could still very easily sustain your playstyle if a ramping magicka cost to cloak was added. Your playstyle ultimately boils down to running around IC at high velocity while invisible in order to farm Tel Var, do IC quests, and do a bit of PVP here and there. Which is definitely fun, no doubt! For some reason, though, you seem to think that you need to cloak constantly while not in combat to achieve that, even when there are no other players around. You've scoffed at combining cloak and crouch in this thread previously, but it's the most sensible thing to do for sustain when you're not in active combat. Cloak spam is only truly necessary in defensive situations when you know you can't win a fight, or when you're brawling aggressively and want to maintain 100% uptime on strong passives that trigger from stealth. And in those situations, cloak should absolutely be brought in line with skills like streak.

I know it feels like people are attacking your playstyle, but you really can't expect cloak to be balanced around your off-meta build. Your playstyle isn't the problem, as has already been pointed out -- it's guys and gals spamming cloak in short bursts to completely reset fights with no sustain repercussions, or brawl with it to constantly proc damage from stealth passives. My video was intended to help you feel like you could continue to enjoy a playstyle you like (and show you how you can achieve it while adding a bit more damage, to boot!), even if a ramping magicka cost to cloak was added. EDIT: and like I said before, I didn't realize that the speed element was so important to you, but that can still be achieved easily without needing to invest fully into sustain to the point where there's no more wiggle room to account for a ramping magicka cost on cloak.

What is wrong with cloaking away from fight you cant win?
Why do you blame players for trying to escape from unwinnable unfair fights?
Is it because you like to force players into outnumbered fights without giving them a chance to win or escape? (Dont know if you do but would explain it.)
If you spam cloak without becoming visible again you are not resetting fight but ending it.
Brawlers buffing with stealth passives by using cloak use it to rarely to ramp cost with once every 7 seconds.

Amottica

Aurielle wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

At any rate, I was responding to @Aurielle when proposing that. He has been explaining - see his post and video earlier in this thread - how the combination of Rally and Siphoning Attacks might be OP. It allows you to regain resources in cloak, with Siphoning Attacks, while healing away the health cost with Rally. In other words you might use this method to sustain Cloak indefinitely without having to invest in magicka sustain. Invest everything into attack, but have your cake and eat it with this skill combination. At least that's the theory.

Please read post number 57 again and stop putting words in my mouth. The point of that video was not to claim that Rally/Siphoning Attacks was OP. The point of that video was not to demonstrate cloak spam abuse. And the point of that video was certainly not to show good, hardcore combat — because for the most part, that doesn’t really happen in IC, unless you’re deliberately seeking 1vX fights like React.

The point of that video was, once again, to demonstrate to you personally that you do not need to invest heavily into magicka sustain to achieve your playstyle of killing IC mobs, farming Tel Var, and engaging in occasional PVP while being almost constantly invisible.

Fair enough. But it's a moot point if we had ramping Cloak cost. Neither this, nor my current build would work.

It really isn't a moot point. You could still very easily sustain your playstyle if a ramping magicka cost to cloak was added. Your playstyle ultimately boils down to running around IC at high velocity while invisible in order to farm Tel Var, do IC quests, and do a bit of PVP here and there. Which is definitely fun, no doubt! For some reason, though, you seem to think that you need to cloak constantly while not in combat to achieve that, even when there are no other players around. You've scoffed at combining cloak and crouch in this thread previously, but it's the most sensible thing to do for sustain when you're not in active combat.

Cloak spam is only truly necessary in defensive situations when you know you can't win a fight, or when you're brawling aggressively and want to maintain 100% uptime on strong passives that trigger from stealth. And in those situations, cloak should absolutely be brought in line with skills like streak.

A speed boost would bring the cloak in line with Streak. I use Streak all the time to escape and laugh, as I am in a safe location, well before I run out of magicka. It takes a player knowing what to do to stop a decent sorc from streaking away just as it takes a player skilled player to pull a NB out of cloak.

and I have no issues with the proposed changes. I think those that successfully pull NBs out of cloak now will still have an advantage and NBs that know what they are doing will still escape just as easily as they do now.