Add a Ramping cost to shadowy disguise

Bashev

Amottica wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in.

Only if you're trying to re-detect a nightblade after they have successfully cloaked. That is not the way to counter nightblades.

I can't be sure which ability I should be casting

Even absent a detection potion or Sentry, you know exactly which ability you should be casting:

• Keep up Magelight or Camou Hunter. If anyone is scratching their head as to why those skills don't work, it's 95% because you needed to cast one of those abilities earlier, while the nightblade was still visible. That's the way those skills work effectively. Casting them after a nightblade has cloaked is the wrong thing to do. However:
• Immediately going into AOE spam also works quite well. Sweeps, Sap Essence, Whirlwind, DK Breath and so on.
• Streak immediately.

It affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

I will grant you that.

A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar

That may be true for your playstyle, but as a general statement this is completely wrong. I run a truly perma-cloaking magblade. I already pay the price for that in having to build heavily for sustain. I have been the underdog in terms of damage forever and ever, because of this. Yes, I can gank inexperienced players successfully, but I'm not an outright ganker. I am too weak for that. It is a utility playstyle that serves for questing, for Tel Var farming, as well as general PvP. A ramping cost would destroy that playstyle. I'm a veteran player, but I would argue that this type of playstyle helps new players, who adopt it, as much as it hurts new players who haven't yet learnt how to counter it.

but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

You're giving yourself an out by saying "in many scenarios". However, as someone who has actually played a perma-cloaking magblade since forever, please let me set the record straight. Such builds are neither invincible nor especially powerful on the attack. They are nice to play. They may allow you to bring Tel Var home. They're good at setting fire to siege, loitering in hostile keeps or for avoiding trouble and rezzing people.

That said, I must strongly object to you calling them "practically invincible". They are not. This is only true in so far as you can spend large amounts of time in a combat area without actually engaging. You're not accomplishing much either in that case.

Cloak on it's own is not a panacea. The skill that IMO comes closer to that, in a single cast, is Streak. Streak allows you to be relatively carefree via instant repositioning and stunning people. I'm not saying Streak is better, but it is easier to use. With Cloak you have to be more circumspect. It is never just Cloak. It is "Cloak and". Cloak and speed. Cloak and Shadow Image. The latter requires discipline, foresight, and being somewhat anchored to a location. The former - speed - requires yet more build compromises. Celerity CP. All Swift jewelry. Concealed slotted when you don't even want it actively (in my case). Race Against Time and the sustain to keep it up some while cloaking. You need to be not merely fast, you need to be the fastest. You need to be faster than every one of your opponents. That's when perma-cloaking really takes off as a defensive tool.

If you run into me and you think I'm invincible, it's because I'm that fast. However you need to bear in mind that that is my defense. I do my best with the tools we have nowadays, e.g. the Esoteric Greaves, to be tanky while the stamina lasts, but I'm fundamentally squishy af. Vampire is out for sustain reasons. Light armor is in for sustain reasons. That combination is gnarly for how squishy it leaves you.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy with my playstyle. If anything, it's been buffed and become more viable over the years. However, please don't mistake that for thinking it's strong. If you're "invincible" by Cloak, you've compromised your build to make Cloak work well. I could run Tarnished Nightmare, but I don't have the weapon / spell damage for that to pay off like it does for other nightblades.

but would help alleviate the frustration

Why? Why dumb the game down even more? If we keep going in this direction, then frustration will ultimately give way to boredom. The skill gap is real, but the skill gap makes the game worthwhile. This is an l2p issue at the end of the day. I do get countered. When my build works, it's marvelous. When it doesn't, it's miserable. I can freely run in and out of an opposing faction siege, but only if there are a lot casuals. That said, I still have to use LoS and direction change like crazy too. At such times I wonder how these guys are not on top of me. Play against good players in IC (or Cyro) and it's a completely different story. Players who know how to use detection well can completely neutralise cloaking nightblades, including me. A single sorc remains my biggest counter, despite all that sustain and speed. Streak alone, but definitely Streak with a detection potion and sorc's raw damage is OP against Cloak.

This is a well-written post on countering the cloak. I have said before that not figuring out how to counter the cloak or choosing not to use the counters does not indicate a problem with the design.

In my small guild group, two players run counters to cloak and have no choice but to do so. When I run solo, which I like to hunt gankers around keeps, I run a counter to cloak and pawn NBs. They do work well.

With that in mind, a very skilled player is not a one-trick pony. They have more up their sleeve to evade than shadow disguise. It is the newer NB that relies on cloak and they tend to be easy to take out if one knows how to take them out of cloak.

Yes great guide for countering cloak Reroll Sorc. As I said the 2 OP classes non stop point out their OP skills.

Aurielle

fred4 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Did you watch the video? I killed a 30k health Palatine rank DK in two seconds on a sub-optimal gank build, after resetting a fight I only lost due to my own clumsiness in forgetting to pre-buff for the fight.

Yes, I've watched the video. You killed a PvEer who didn't react the second time around, but kept swinging their greatsword at an NPC. It wasn't because you were a nightblade. It was because PvEers are easy to kill. Ranks are no indication of a player's prowess. It only means they've spent a lot of time in Cyro, not that they're good.

The number of Palatine rank PVEers is close to zero. I killed a PVPer running PVP gear (note the Dark Convergence proc at 1:50) with 30k health (the standard minimum amount recommended for PVP), who was obviously farming some Tel Var that morning, just like me.

fred4 wrote: »

I also killed plenty other non-NBs over the weekend in 1-2 seconds, many of whom were sitting between 30-35k health.

Not that player. It took you at least 3 skill casts by my count, a bow attack, Concealed / Surprise Attack, and Grim Focus. That's not nitpicking. That's important. You didn't stun that player with your opener, nor did you achieve a 2 second kill time. The target had ample time to react, only they didn't.

Time stamps, my guy. First hit registers at 2:42, player is dead by 2:44. I didn't stun the player with my opener, no, but Sellistrix stunned him when his health bar was around 20%.



Sellistrix activates after 1.5 seconds. He was already well within execute range at that point. Please try bursting a 30k health DK who has Hardened Armor active to 20% of his health bar in 1.5 seconds on a Templar and get back to me on how that goes for you. Two seconds might not be "ample time to react" when you consider that the average human reaction time is about 250 ms, and many people playing the game right now are still suffering from crippling ping spikes. If his ping was high enough, he was most likely dead before he even knew what was happening. How many times have people complained in these forums about being globaled by stealthed NBs before they even saw their health bars declining? So many times.

fred4 wrote: »

and you're too weak to gank anything other than inexperienced players.

So are you by the evidence you've shown. You killed an inexperienced player, or that's certainly how they acted.

I acknowledge that it might have just been a bad player, but again, it would be incredibly rare for someone to hit Palatine rank in this game without at least learning the basics of how to counter a NB. The player most likely didn't react because he couldn't react. A 30k health Palatine rank player shouldn't be dying to a sub-optimally built noob ganker in two seconds who is admittedly bad at ganking because, hey, I've only been doing this for *counts* four days now. It speaks to how much of a tactical advantage being able to hit players with ranged proc sets from stealth gives you, especially when you don't have to build for sustain or tankiness because your class has so many powerful damage and escape skills at its disposal.

fred4 wrote: »

If you put Rally and Siphoning Attacks on your backbar, you can invest fully into damage and not have the sustain problems you refer to -- and because you hit so hard, you won't have to run away from fights so quickly (because you'll win more of them), so you can use infused traits on your jewelry rather than swift for even more damage. Another benefit of Rally is you can pre-buff Major Brutality/Sorcery without having to enter combat, which is not the case with Sap Essence/Power Extraction. If you rely on spamming cloak a lot for defensive purposes, I'm honestly not really sure why you wouldn't make room for 2H and Rally/Siphoning Attacks, when it's easily the most OP non set-based combo for sustain in the game and it won't pull you out of stealth.

I use 1H+S or ice staff, because that is by far the best back bar weapon when fighting people who know how to fight, such as when two players decide to focus the "squishy nightblade", when I have to stop and hold block for a meteor, and so on. I use a potion when ganking. Also, I'm a ranged magblade, so please don't tell me to put 2H on the front bar.

I agree that 1H+S/Frost staff is often the best option for defending yourself against other players who know how to fight, but only when you're not on a squishy build. If you're routinely going toe to toe with players to the point where you need a shield or a frost staff to survive and can't use LOS or other techniques, then you need to build for that.

fred4 wrote: »

Also, if you're brawling and not ganking, perhaps build yourself less squishy and try Dark Cloak instead?

I play other classes for that. I play nightblade to have a different experience.

OK, but again, if you're brawling, relying on cloak and using a squishy build might not be optimal.

fred4 wrote: »

Ramping cloak costs become necessary when ganking NBs are terrorizing whole groups of players and picking them off one by one, while also still being able to weasel their way out of various stealth counters by relying on their superior speed and ability to spam cloak over and over again.

Those are the tools of nightblade. Do not assume this is easy. The point of the class is to "weasel" and not play like other classes, if you want to put it that way. You don't start dismantling the class-defining feature. Alongside fixes to cloak, ZOS also doubled the pulse frequency and increased the duration and range of Magelight / Camou Hunter, if I remember correctly. Nightblade can already be countered.

Sorry, but it is very easy. This past weekend, I managed to harass an entire raid group's siege line without getting detected as a solo noob ganker (and believe me, they were trying very hard to find me). I also infiltrated a few keeps and killed sieging players on the wall -- players known to me who are typically tough to kill on a level playing field where they can see me. I did also die quite a few times when I eventually got hit with AOEs and detects. It was a pretty fair trade-off in my eyes, though, seeing as how I was literally deleting players in two seconds while invisible. Don't get me wrong, it's a valid playstyle and I'm not saying cloak should be taken away. I'm merely saying it shouldn't be so easy to spam it endlessly.

fred4 wrote: »

Also, when cloak is offensively weaved between skills by someone who is brawling and not using cloak for escape purposes, it guarantees 100% uptime on Strike from the Shadows (a free boost of 300 WD/SD that only NBs can take full advantage of, because other classes can't just enter stealth constantly at will when they're vamps), along with guaranteed critical strikes.

At the cost of losing a GCD to casting Cloak every time. That's an overall damage loss unless you manage to burst and kill someone as a result. In other words, this is part of NBs burst combo. Cloaking makes that a highly telegraphed one which good players will counter by blocking or dodge rolling in a brawl every time. The only time when cloak can be truly OP is outright ganks and bombs. However you actually have to pull those off.

Good brawlers using cloak offensively can animation cancel cloak. Watch React demonstrating how to bash-weave cloak here at the 23:20 mark:

https://youtu.be/6PJjSJY-2Uo?si=itF8djQLLm26V4Rh&t=1395

fred4 wrote: »

Imagine if every time a Sorc streaked, they got an extra 300 WD/SD and a guaranteed crit on their next skill cast, and they could just do it over and over again with no magicka penalty...

Good sorcs may Streak, turn 180, and frag you. Streak is a stun. The target cannot act for 1s. The response to Cloak, on the other hand, is that they will anticipate your burst while having full agency.

Not if you animation cancel cloak.

fred4 wrote: »

Your idea also does nothing to solve NBs spamming cloak to easily get out of hairy situations and reset every fight when it's not going in their favor.

But that is NB in a nutshell. The whole point of having a class like this, and sorc to a lesser degree, is that you can disengage at will. This is a large part of what makes solo play viable in open world, where numbers otherwise trump everything.

I'm not saying NBs shouldn't be able to disengage at will. I'm saying it shouldn't be so easy to do so without having to build for sustain. That's all. Every other escape tool in this game has ramping costs. Even the new bow scribing skill has it (it was initially released on the PTS without ramping costs, and ZOS quickly fixed that). There is no valid reason anyone has presented here for why cloak shouldn't have ramping costs. The fact that cloak doesn't physically move you means nothing, because baseline NB mobility is so high as it is with Concealed Weapon, and literal invisibility is such a massive offensive and defensive tactical advantage that is usually successful far more times than it's countered.

fred4

@Aurielle What I don't get is that you switch class, you find it works well for the few days you're playing it, and you're immediately hell-bent on having Cloak nerfed. Why? For one thing, would you not give it more time, so you get a chance to experience the class on a bad day?

Going back to the original post, their reasoning seems to be that, well, NB is now in such good shape in terms of damage and healing that Cloak needs to be nerfed. Rather than adjusting Tarnished for example (must be the only proc set without a delay), let's homogenise the class more and chip away at the one thing that makes it unique. No! I'd sooner cut active casts of Siphoning Attacks in half in PvP, if that change has unbalanced the class recently. Or have it not work in Cloak.

What you'd be doing is nerfing people like me above all else. People who enjoy the speed, the chase after distant targets, the surveying of IC for bosses in the safety of Cloak, and so on. The joy and freedom that comes with that. I do a bit of everything, but the PvPvE of IC is what I'm really optimised for.

The gankers and brawlers, the React Fasters, they don't need nor use Cloak nearly as much. The newly-minted bow players, on the other hand, that's who I go after to be honest. You ran around merely in crouch a fair bit in that video. I would see you, but you wouldn't see me coming, because I actually perma-cloak by default. So before you call for a Cloak nerf, bear in mind it's people like me keeping the bow gankers honest.

Bashev

fred4 wrote: »

The gankers and brawlers, the React Fasters, they don't need nor use Cloak nearly as much. The newly-minted bow players, on the other hand, that's who I go after to be honest. You ran around merely in crouch a fair bit in that video. I would see you, but you wouldn't see me coming, because I actually perma-cloak by default. So before you call for a Cloak nerf, bear in mind it's people like me keeping the bow gankers honest.

This is like telling, DKs, Templars and Wardens they dont use block a lot. They use it when they need it

Block casting heals is another problem on it own though and at least these classes still can be targeted and debuffed, even their block stance can be broken if they dont have CC.

fred4

x

Bashev wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

The gankers and brawlers, the React Fasters, they don't need nor use Cloak nearly as much. The newly-minted bow players, on the other hand, that's who I go after to be honest. You ran around merely in crouch a fair bit in that video. I would see you, but you wouldn't see me coming, because I actually perma-cloak by default. So before you call for a Cloak nerf, bear in mind it's people like me keeping the bow gankers honest.

This is like telling, DKs, Templars and Wardens they dont use block a lot. They use it when they need it

Block casting heals is another problem on it own though and at least these classes still can be targeted and debuffed, even their block stance can be broken if they dont have CC.

Are you looking for block fatigue now?

Bashev

fred4 wrote: »

x

Bashev wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

The gankers and brawlers, the React Fasters, they don't need nor use Cloak nearly as much. The newly-minted bow players, on the other hand, that's who I go after to be honest. You ran around merely in crouch a fair bit in that video. I would see you, but you wouldn't see me coming, because I actually perma-cloak by default. So before you call for a Cloak nerf, bear in mind it's people like me keeping the bow gankers honest.

This is like telling, DKs, Templars and Wardens they dont use block a lot. They use it when they need it

Block casting heals is another problem on it own though and at least these classes still can be targeted and debuffed, even their block stance can be broken if they dont have CC.

Are you looking for block fatigue now?

I am for it but PvE tanks will cry very loud!!!!

Aurielle

fred4 wrote: »

@Aurielle What I don't get is that you switch class, you find it works well for the few days you're playing it, and you're immediately hell-bent on having Cloak nerfed. Why? For one thing, would you not give it more time, so you get a chance to experience the class on a bad day?

Trust me, Fred, I've been of the opinion that cloak needs to be reigned in slightly (not nerfed to the ground) with ramping magicka costs for a very long time now, because I play every single class and have encountered NBs benefiting significantly from cloak spam every single time I've played this game over the last ten years. I didn't just become "immediately hell-bent" on having cloak dialed down a notch after using it myself on a gankblade for a few days.

fred4 wrote: »

Going back to the original post, their reasoning seems to be that, well, NB is now in such good shape in terms of damage and healing that Cloak needs to be nerfed. Rather than adjusting Tarnished for example (must be the only proc set without a delay), let's homogenise the class more and chip away at the one thing that makes it unique. No! I'd sooner cut active casts of Siphoning Attacks in half in PvP, if that change has unbalanced the class recently. Or have it not work in Cloak.

No, if you read the original post, the OP's main reasoning for proposing an adjustment to cloak is this, and I quote: "Especially now the cloak is apparently "fixed" and certain mechanics will not remove the player from stealth, this should be even more weight for the proposed change." NB mains in the past always maintained that cloak shouldn't have ramping costs because skills like Ele Sus were pulling them out of stealth. That's fixed, so what's the excuse now? Adding ramping magicka costs to cloak wouldn't make NB less unique, because it would still be used heavily -- the only difference is that players would actually have to invest in sustain if they want to spam it. Ramping costs on streak don't make Sorcs any less unique, and it also doesn't stop them from using streak. It just means they have to be careful about how many times they spam it. Once again, no one is asking for cloak to be deleted from the game: we're merely suggesting it should have ramping magicka costs to bring it in line with other evasive tools used to reset fights.

fred4 wrote: »

What you'd be doing is nerfing people like me above all else. People who enjoy the speed, the chase after distant targets, the surveying of IC for bosses in the safety of Cloak, and so on. The joy and freedom that comes with that. I do a bit of everything, but the PvPvE of IC is what I'm really optimised for.

I'm still trying to understand why you're running a sustain build instead of a high damage build if you perma-cloak on a magNB and mainly just want to farm IC. You can still have all the joy and freedom and speed you want while staying out of sight without needing to build heavily for sustain. Your build seems to be holding you back a bit if simply adding a ramping cost to cloak would completely break it. That means you're just barely sustaining your magicka, even on a sustain build. I really don't get it.

fred4 wrote: »

The gankers and brawlers, the React Fasters, they don't need nor use Cloak nearly as much. The newly-minted bow players, on the other hand, that's who I go after to be honest. You ran around merely in crouch a fair bit in that video. I would see you, but you wouldn't see me coming, because I actually perma-cloak by default. So before you call for a Cloak nerf, bear in mind it's people like me keeping the bow gankers honest.

I guess I'll see you out there! I don't actually need Vigor on my backbar thanks to Rally and my scribed burst healing skill that also provides me with Minor Brutality/Sorcery, so I've replaced it with Evil Hunter for funsos. Having it on my back bar also makes my burst heals even stronger, so win-win!

Galeriano2

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Also that myth of "strongest burst heal" is still going strong I see, let me counter with this list of abilities that heal more than Healthy Offering:

Dragon Knight:
Coagulating Blood under 90% health

Sorcerer:
Twilight Matriarch Heal
Vibrant Shroud with Blood Magic passive.

Templar:
Rushed Ceremony & morphs

Warden:
Polar Wind above 29k max health

Necromancer:
Render Flesh & morphs

Arcanist:
Runemend & morphs

Scribing:
Healing Soul

A myth?

Healthy offering belongs to the highest scaling group of burst heals while nightblade also applies few percentage increase buffs to it plus a fact that class itself reaches one of the if not the highest wep/spell dmg and crit chances in the game making average numeric value for healthy offering one of the top burst heals in the game while also being the cheapest one.

Afterip

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Healthy offering belongs to the highest scaling group of burst heals while nightblade also applies few percentage increase buffs to it plus a fact that class itself reaches one of the if not the highest wep/spell dmg and crit chances in the game making average numeric value for healthy offering one of the top burst heals in the game while also being the cheapest one.

Honor The Dead - Cost: 4590 Magicka
Impervious Runeward - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Hardened Ward - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Resistant Flesh - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Polar Wind - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Coagulating Blood - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Healthy Offering - Cost: 3510 Magicka

fred4

Aurielle wrote: »

NB mains in the past always maintained that cloak shouldn't have ramping costs because skills like Ele Sus were pulling them out of stealth. That's fixed, so what's the excuse now?

I'm an NB main and I never said such a thing. There is no excuse needed.

ZOS had a pass over Cloak a while back, maybe 3 years now, where they tidied up the rules and removed many of the "random" things pulling you out of Cloak, notably Lightning Form if I remember correctly. At the same time they buffed Magelight and Expert Hunter, as I previously mentioned.

To the best of my recollection, Structured Entropy was actually fixed at the time, but gradually things started breaking again, notably Entropy and Ele Sus. From my PoV, those should be fixed and that's it. It was never an excuse for delaying Cloak changes on my end, because I see nothing wrong with Cloak. The skill was balanced in the orginal pass over Cloak, things broke again, things should be fixed. That's it.

For what it's worth, some things keep breaking or are still broken. For example Sheer Venom knocked me out of Cloak with every tick just the other day. It's just that people don't commonly use that set anymore. This is not meant as an excuse to delay allegedly necessary Cloak changes, nor is anything else I've said.

I'm still trying to understand why you're running a sustain build instead of a high damage build if you perma-cloak on a magNB and mainly just want to farm IC. You can still have all the joy and freedom and speed you want while staying out of sight without needing to build heavily for sustain. Your build seems to be holding you back a bit if simply adding a ramping cost to cloak would completely break it. That means you're just barely sustaining your magicka, even on a sustain build. I really don't get it.

Then let me try to explain. I perma-cloak. I run around in cloak the entire time I move, unless I'm fighting. I frequently don't ride in Cyro, because I'm almost as fast in Cloak. A ramping cost would destroy that playstyle. This really dates back to the time when Concealed would only give you the, then 25%, speed bonus in Cloak, but nowadays I retain the playstyle for other reasons.

I can run low health, because I'm mostly unseen. I don't get ganked, unless I'm already fighting. Conversely, I stumble across other nightblades frequently, those who crouch and only cloak part time, and I take them out. This is in part, because of the sheer amount of ground I cover freely, without ever getting embroiled in NPC fights. Your video shows you being slow and deliberate, compared to my build. I can run after many a moving player, while sustaining Race Against Time in Cloak, to Incap them while they are moving at their full speed. Fun!

I can also loiter around NPC guards in IC and around resources and keeps in Cyro forever. This doesn't necessarily lead to fighting, but it is freedom. I can go anywhere, take any shortcut without NPCs detecting me and embroiling me in an annoying, pointless fight. In IC, I can disengage from NPC fights, including boss fights, whereas if you stop cloaking and merely crouch they immediately shoot at you. It takes a while to lose aggro, but perma-cloaking will eventually do it.

EDIT / FYI just in case: NPC guards, such as flag guards, have a large detection radius. If you are merely crouched, they will see and attack you. For example on the inside of keeps there are only a few spots where you are not within line of sight of some guard. When they see you, all hell breaks loose. Going invisible and staying invisible, i.e. (perma-)cloaking, is the only way you can avoid that.

You don't know, because you haven't played a build like this. Most people hear "perma-cloaking" and it doesn't sink in. It means something less to them. When I say perma-cloaking, I mean that literally. Also it's not strictly to fulfil an objective or to be particularly strong against players. It's a lifestyle. My RPG lifestyle so to speak. Perma-cloaking and speed. It makes the game fun to play.

I could try Rally, but I'm happy with my current solution for reasons already mentioned, nor would Rally fix an escalating cost. I've long accepted that builds have limits and that many people are so tanky, you simply cannot kill them as a solo player.

A friend of mine has been a 1vXer who still logs on to the game a fair bit. He used to play nightblade in the past. He is fiercely competitive and duels in Bergama, which is the hotspot for the serious duellers on PC EU. He kills me in duels pretty quickly. I mention this, because I trust his authority when he says that nightblade is currently uncompetitive at the highest level. That means Cyrodiil. I assume he meant duels as well. When I told him that was news to me, he clarified that nightblade is, in his view, excellent for killing mediocre players in open world.

monkidb16_ESO

Galeriano2 wrote: »

A myth?

Yep.

After normalization most burst heals have the same scaling:
WD/SD * 0.15495
Max Stam/Mag * 1.62698

Healthy Offering has a flat 314 higher tooltip than most other bust heals but also a flat cost of 1080 Health over 3 seconds.
So compared to most of the other heals I listed Healthy Offering will have healed yourself 766 less health after the sacrifice.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

nightblade also applies few percentage increase buffs to it plus a fact that class itself reaches one of the if not the highest wep/spell dmg and crit chances in the game

Every class has passives that increase Healing and WD/SD if you want to make that claim, feel free to show your calculations.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

while also being the cheapest one.

Afterip wrote: »

Honor The Dead - Cost: 4590 Magicka
Honor The Dead - Cost: 3763 Magicka under 75%
Impervious Runeward - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Hardened Ward - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Resistant Flesh - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Polar Wind - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Coagulating Blood - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Healthy Offering - Cost: 3510 Magicka
Twilight Matriarch - Cost: 3210 Magicka after Rebate

Yes it is one of the cheapest, but not the cheapest, but it is also the not the strongest for self healing due to it's health sacrifice.

Aurielle

fred4 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

NB mains in the past always maintained that cloak shouldn't have ramping costs because skills like Ele Sus were pulling them out of stealth. That's fixed, so what's the excuse now?

I'm an NB main and I never said such a thing. There is no excuse needed.

ZOS had a pass over Cloak a while back, maybe 3 years now, where they tidied up the rules and removed many of the "random" things pulling you out of Cloak, notably Lightning Form if I remember correctly. At the same time they buffed Magelight and Expert Hunter, as I previously mentioned.

To the best of my recollection, Structured Entropy was actually fixed at the time, but gradually things started breaking again, notably Entropy and Ele Sus. From my PoV, those should be fixed and that's it. It was never an excuse for delaying Cloak changes on my end, because I see nothing wrong with Cloak. The skill was balanced in the orginal pass over Cloak, things broke again, things should be fixed. That's it.

For what it's worth, some things keep breaking or are still broken. For example Sheer Venom knocked me out of Cloak with every tick just the other day. It's just that people don't commonly use that set anymore. This is not meant as an excuse to delay allegedly necessary Cloak changes, nor is anything else I've said.

I'm still trying to understand why you're running a sustain build instead of a high damage build if you perma-cloak on a magNB and mainly just want to farm IC. You can still have all the joy and freedom and speed you want while staying out of sight without needing to build heavily for sustain. Your build seems to be holding you back a bit if simply adding a ramping cost to cloak would completely break it. That means you're just barely sustaining your magicka, even on a sustain build. I really don't get it.

Then let me try to explain. I perma-cloak. I run around in cloak the entire time I move, unless I'm fighting. I frequently don't ride in Cyro, because I'm almost as fast in Cloak. A ramping cost would destroy that playstyle. This really dates back to the time when Concealed would only give you the, then 25%, speed bonus in Cloak, but nowadays I retain the playstyle for other reasons.

I can run low health, because I'm mostly unseen. I don't get ganked, unless I'm already fighting. Conversely, I stumble across other nightblades frequently, those who crouch and only cloak part time, and I take them out. This is in part, because of the sheer amount of ground I cover freely, without ever getting embroiled in NPC fights. Your video shows you being slow and deliberate, compared to my build. I can run after many a moving player, while sustaining Race Against Time in Cloak, to Incap them while they are moving at their full speed. Fun!

I can also loiter around NPC guards in IC and around resources and keeps in Cyro forever. This doesn't necessarily lead to fighting, but it is freedom. I can go anywhere, take any shortcut without NPCs detecting me and embroiling me in an annoying, pointless fight. In IC, I can disengage from NPC fights, including boss fights, whereas if you stop cloaking and merely crouch they immediately shoot at you. It takes a while to lose aggro, but perma-cloaking will eventually do it.

You don't know, because you haven't played a build like this. Most people hear "perma-cloaking" and it doesn't sink in. It means something less to them. When I say perma-cloaking, I mean that literally. Also it's not strictly to fulfil an objective or to be particularly strong against players. It's a lifestyle. My RPG lifestyle so to speak. It's something that makes the game fun to play.

I could try Rally, but I'm happy with my current solution for reasons already mentioned, nor would Rally fix an escalating cost. I've long accepted that builds have limits and that many people are so tanky, you simply cannot kill them as a solo player.

A friend of mine has been a 1vXer who still logs on to the game a fair bit. He used to play nightblade in the past. He is fiercely competitive and duels in Bergama, which is the hotspot for the serious duellers on PC EU. He kills me in duels pretty quickly. I mention this, because I trust his authority when he says that nightblade is currently uncompetitive at the highest level. That means Cyrodiil. I assume he meant duels as well. When I told him that was news to me, he clarified that nightblade is, in his view, excellent for killing mediocre players in open world.

So long story short, you’re using a niche build, and you expect an OP skill like cloak to be balanced around your niche build, rather than the type of builds most NBs are running. Saying cloak shouldn’t have ramping costs just because you personally use it constantly and never, ever let it fall off — even when you really don’t need to do that — would be a little like someone saying that they should be able to hold block at all times (even when they don’t need to) and still regain stamina through their stamina regen pool, because holding block at all times is their preferred playstyle. Or… like a sorc saying they should be able to streak everywhere without any sort of penalty, because zipping around Tamriel like a lightning bolt is fun and it’s their preferred playstyle.

Anyway, that’s the last I’ll say on this, because it’s clear I’m not changing your mind and you’re certainly not changing mine.

KingLewie_III

I just wanted to say I find it hilarious anyone in this thread is trying to debate React like he doesn't know how to play NB lmao.

fred4

Aurielle wrote: »

So long story short, you’re using a niche build, and you expect an OP skill like cloak to be balanced around your niche build.

And what makes you speak for anyone other than yourself? Casually calling Cloak OP doesn't make it so. There are people on both sides of the fence in this thread. Cloak can feel horrendously broken when it's actually countered with it's legitimate counters. Those counters already exist.

AngryPenguin

JustLovely wrote: »

They should make cloak a scribing skill, then every class can have access to cloak.

It will never happen, but it's a great thought. If this happened maybe they'd finally do something to balance cloak in some way.

Class identity isn't really a thing anymore with hybridization, so why not?

Galeriano2

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

A myth?

Yep.

After normalization most burst heals have the same scaling:
WD/SD * 0.15495
Max Stam/Mag * 1.62698

Healthy Offering has a flat 314 higher tooltip than most other bust heals but also a flat cost of 1080 Health over 3 seconds.
So compared to most of the other heals I listed Healthy Offering will have healed yourself 766 less health after the sacrifice.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

nightblade also applies few percentage increase buffs to it plus a fact that class itself reaches one of the if not the highest wep/spell dmg and crit chances in the game

Every class has passives that increase Healing and WD/SD if you want to make that claim, feel free to show your calculations.

Galeriano2 wrote: »

while also being the cheapest one.

Afterip wrote: »

Honor The Dead - Cost: 4590 Magicka
Honor The Dead - Cost: 3763 Magicka under 75%
Impervious Runeward - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Hardened Ward - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Resistant Flesh - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Polar Wind - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Coagulating Blood - Cost: 4320 Magicka
Healthy Offering - Cost: 3510 Magicka
Twilight Matriarch - Cost: 3210 Magicka after Rebate

Yes it is one of the cheapest, but not the cheapest, but it is also the not the strongest for self healing due to it's health sacrifice.

Most but not all which is why for example Your claim about 90% HP coag being stronger than healthy offering is farfetched considering that base scaling for coag is 20% weaker than for healthy offering. Claiming that warden with 29k HP is getting higher burst heal from polar wind than nightblade with healhty offering is also farfetched. If we want to talk about downsides than we need to also mention necro's self applied minor defile, sorc's twilight matriarch taking two slots and being killable etc

Nightblade have easy acces to more passive stat increase. For example every class have acces to strike from shadows passive from vampire yet You will see nb benefiting the most from it. Add to this easy acces to minor courage, additional wep/spell dmg with merciless stacks, freedom to build way more offensively than other classes, additional crit chance passives etc and You end up with a class that have higher average burst heal. In real fights You will quite often heal for higher values with nb healthy offering than with DK coag when DK player is nearly dead. Also Soulcleaver set exists if someone is still dissatisfied with his healthy offering cost and tooltip.

Twilight matriarch costs 3,5k mag to summon but using his healing ability costs 4,6k mag making twilight matriarch heal after rebate cost 4,3k not 3,2k so yeah even after including rebate on sorc and waiting full 6 seconds on templar healthy offering is still the cheapest.

Galeriano2

I am really not a big fan of ramping cost idea. Cloak fails to often for it to have just have straight cost increase for each use. Ramping cost also do not adress core of the issue with nightblades in PvP which are range nightblades. Nerfing both meele and ranged nightblades equally is not solving issue with nightblade in a balanced manner.

Joy_Division

fred4 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in.

Only if you're trying to re-detect a nightblade after they have successfully cloaked. That is not the way to counter nightblades.

I can't be sure which ability I should be casting

Even absent a detection potion or Sentry, you know exactly which ability you should be casting:

• Keep up Magelight or Camou Hunter. If anyone is scratching their head as to why those skills don't work, it's 95% because you needed to cast one of those abilities earlier, while the nightblade was still visible. That's the way those skills work effectively. Casting them after a nightblade has cloaked is the wrong thing to do. However:
• Immediately going into AOE spam also works quite well. Sweeps, Sap Essence, Whirlwind, DK Breath and so on.
• Streak immediately.

It affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

I will grant you that.

A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar

That may be true for your playstyle, but as a general statement this is completely wrong. I run a truly perma-cloaking magblade. I already pay the price for that in having to build heavily for sustain. I have been the underdog in terms of damage forever and ever, because of this. Yes, I can gank inexperienced players successfully, but I'm not an outright ganker. I am too weak for that. It is a utility playstyle that serves for questing, for Tel Var farming, as well as general PvP. A ramping cost would destroy that playstyle. I'm a veteran player, but I would argue that this type of playstyle helps new players, who adopt it, as much as it hurts new players who haven't yet learnt how to counter it.

but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

You're giving yourself an out by saying "in many scenarios". However, as someone who has actually played a perma-cloaking magblade since forever, please let me set the record straight. Such builds are neither invincible nor especially powerful on the attack. They are nice to play. They may allow you to bring Tel Var home. They're good at setting fire to siege, loitering in hostile keeps or for avoiding trouble and rezzing people.

That said, I must strongly object to you calling them "practically invincible". They are not. This is only true in so far as you can spend large amounts of time in a combat area without actually engaging. You're not accomplishing much either in that case.

Cloak on it's own is not a panacea. The skill that IMO comes closer to that, in a single cast, is Streak. Streak allows you to be relatively carefree via instant repositioning and stunning people. I'm not saying Streak is better, but it is easier to use. With Cloak you have to be more circumspect. It is never just Cloak. It is "Cloak and". Cloak and speed. Cloak and Shadow Image. The latter requires discipline, foresight, and being somewhat anchored to a location. The former - speed - requires yet more build compromises. Celerity CP. All Swift jewelry. Concealed slotted when you don't even want it actively (in my case). Race Against Time and the sustain to keep it up some while cloaking. You need to be not merely fast, you need to be the fastest. You need to be faster than every one of your opponents. That's when perma-cloaking really takes off as a defensive tool.

If you run into me and you think I'm invincible, it's because I'm that fast. However you need to bear in mind that that is my defense. I do my best with the tools we have nowadays, e.g. the Esoteric Greaves, to be tanky while the stamina lasts, but I'm fundamentally squishy af. Vampire is out for sustain reasons. Light armor is in for sustain reasons. That combination is gnarly for how squishy it leaves you.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy with my playstyle. If anything, it's been buffed and become more viable over the years. However, please don't mistake that for thinking it's strong. If you're "invincible" by Cloak, you've compromised your build to make Cloak work well. I could run Tarnished Nightmare, but I don't have the weapon / spell damage for that to pay off like it does for other nightblades.

but would help alleviate the frustration

Why? Why dumb the game down even more? If we keep going in this direction, then frustration will ultimately give way to boredom. The skill gap is real, but the skill gap makes the game worthwhile. This is an l2p issue at the end of the day. I do get countered. When my build works, it's marvelous. When it doesn't, it's miserable. I can freely run in and out of an opposing faction siege, but only if there are a lot casuals. That said, I still have to use LoS and direction change like crazy too. At such times I wonder how these guys are not on top of me. Play against good players in IC (or Cyro) and it's a completely different story. Players who know how to use detection well can completely neutralise cloaking nightblades, including me. A single sorc remains my biggest counter, despite all that sustain and speed. Streak alone, but definitely Streak with a detection potion and sorc's raw damage is OP against Cloak.

After ten years of PvPing, we don't need to be told how ESO's abilities work, how we should be using them, or how to counter a specific class. Many of us have literally thousands of hours of PvP playtime and have literally fought thousands of Nightblades. We know how cloak works, how the better players use it, and the tools best able to combat Nightblades.

Through the entire history of the game, one class spec has been top tier the longest: that is the "stamina" Nightblade. The only class the even comes close to that level of sustained strength is the "magicka" Sorcerer. It was a debate between which of these two specs had spent most time as top dog until update 35, which relegated sorcerers to mediocrity, until ZOS decided to repeat history by allowing sorcs to again stack everything into one stat. Nightblades have not been top tier for so long because PvPers weren't sure how ZOS's skills operated or a lack of experience in dealing with them. It is because the Nightblade kit is incredibly potent in the hands of a skilled player who actually knows how to use cloak other than a panic button.

It's not just disappearing that is powerful (and that is very powerful, especially on demand, which the majority of RPGs do not allow for good reason), it that this skill also can prevent being hit or being damaged by skills in addition to working with increased damage/ critical hit mechanics to deliver powerful offensive strikes. If Nightblades had spent the same amount of time in mid tier as say templars, then that would be a good indication that the class or cloak ability initself is not special and its power was just subject to the whims of Dev balancing or gear sets. That has been the case for DKs, templars, Necros, etc., as these classes are not special and don;t have anything in their kit that makes them consistent top tier performers.

The idea that a Templar is just supposed to immediately just spam jabs (which many won't slot because that skill is bad, unlike the excellent NB spammable) in random directions to counter cloak is ridiculous. Yeah, sure, after you went on writing an essay on how resource intensive it is to be perma-invisible (the pain!), templars are just swimming in resources to just randomly spam abilities at nothing (which means they can;t be blocking the soon to come attack from said NB). Do templars sometimes do this? Of course because there isn't anything else they can do if god forbid they used a tri-pot. But it hardly ever works and more often then not will get yourself killed due to resource expenditure and failing to maintain a defensive posture. Spamming AoEs in a fruitless attempt to get lucky and guess where the NB is sounds about as exhilarating as watching paint dry (and as effective, for the NB can just simply cloak again). No other class in the game requires its opponents to engage in such nonsense to counter a specific ability it has. If spamming AoEs or Camo Hunter or Flare were anywhere nearly as easy, convenient, and effective counters to cloak, we would have figured this out ten years ago and the Cloak skill would not be be the source of consistent feedback such as in the OP.

The sort of NB that you describe and how you play - cloak is my only defense and I have to be perma-invisible as its the only way I can survive - I and the vast majority of players with experience are not worried about. That NB is nothing more than a nuisance and an irritant. Cloak is only being used in a narrow function and players who willfully just rely on a single defensive layer are typically not very good to begin with and use inflexible builds that pose little threat on their own. That spec is at best mid tier with a very narrow function. Go knock yourself out, I don't care. It's the good players who use cloak flexibly to complement the other tools in the NB kit that make the ability, which is very strong on its own, a formidable adversary that can do things unmatched by any other class in the game.

LittlePinkDot

React wrote: »

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

This has been a talking point for years and as always serves only as a litmus test for terrible ideas.

All the other examples have instant tactical advantages Sorc/Vamp/Bow give you an instant positional advantage that can't be undone by just hitting the target. Dodge/Vamp give an instant minor positional advantage with a major mitigation advantage, where you cant be hit by a lot of abilities for a short frame.

Cloak on the other hand gives you a 3 second frame to potentially gain a positional advantage as well as an information advantage. Contrary to the other examples this can be instantly negated by Potion/AoE/Hunter/Magelight. A ramping cost would only make sense if Cloak could not be negated by such means.

Furthermore there is the issue with the implementation of such a penalty. How long should the ramping window last?
Anything under 3 seconds is meaningless and will only further punish newer NBs who can't cast it in a correct rhythm, a higher window would go counter to your point asking for parity between these abilities.

A suggestion that would be much more reasonable would be to disable Cloak for a few seconds after striking from stealth and/or to reveal the NB on preparing any attack while cloaked.

Also that myth of "strongest burst heal" is still going strong I see, let me counter with this list of abilities that heal more than Healthy Offering:

Dragon Knight:
Coagulating Blood under 90% health

Sorcerer:
Twilight Matriarch Heal
Vibrant Shroud with Blood Magic passive.

Templar:
Rushed Ceremony & morphs

Warden:
Polar Wind above 29k max health

Necromancer:
Render Flesh & morphs

Arcanist:
Runemend & morphs

Scribing:
Healing Soul

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in, I can't be sure which ability I should be casting, it affects my positioning in a way that nothing else in the game does, it affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

Cloak is undoubtedly one of the strongest abilities in the game, and has been for a while, but even more so now with the added major savagery on both bars. A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar, but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

NB main here, btw.

Stam NB isn't spamming cloak. They don't have enough Magicka.

Galeriano2

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

React wrote: »

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

This has been a talking point for years and as always serves only as a litmus test for terrible ideas.

All the other examples have instant tactical advantages Sorc/Vamp/Bow give you an instant positional advantage that can't be undone by just hitting the target. Dodge/Vamp give an instant minor positional advantage with a major mitigation advantage, where you cant be hit by a lot of abilities for a short frame.

Cloak on the other hand gives you a 3 second frame to potentially gain a positional advantage as well as an information advantage. Contrary to the other examples this can be instantly negated by Potion/AoE/Hunter/Magelight. A ramping cost would only make sense if Cloak could not be negated by such means.

Furthermore there is the issue with the implementation of such a penalty. How long should the ramping window last?
Anything under 3 seconds is meaningless and will only further punish newer NBs who can't cast it in a correct rhythm, a higher window would go counter to your point asking for parity between these abilities.

A suggestion that would be much more reasonable would be to disable Cloak for a few seconds after striking from stealth and/or to reveal the NB on preparing any attack while cloaked.

Also that myth of "strongest burst heal" is still going strong I see, let me counter with this list of abilities that heal more than Healthy Offering:

Dragon Knight:
Coagulating Blood under 90% health

Sorcerer:
Twilight Matriarch Heal
Vibrant Shroud with Blood Magic passive.

Templar:
Rushed Ceremony & morphs

Warden:
Polar Wind above 29k max health

Necromancer:
Render Flesh & morphs

Arcanist:
Runemend & morphs

Scribing:
Healing Soul

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in, I can't be sure which ability I should be casting, it affects my positioning in a way that nothing else in the game does, it affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

Cloak is undoubtedly one of the strongest abilities in the game, and has been for a while, but even more so now with the added major savagery on both bars. A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar, but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

NB main here, btw.

Stam NB isn't spamming cloak. They don't have enough Magicka.

Siphoning attacks exist. Also it's really not that hard to build 2k+ mag regen on stamblade these days. Also also You don't need to spam cloak to be invisible, usually You need like 2-3 cloak casts to smoothly go from cloak invisibility to regular stealth invisibility.

Aurielle

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

React wrote: »

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

This has been a talking point for years and as always serves only as a litmus test for terrible ideas.

All the other examples have instant tactical advantages Sorc/Vamp/Bow give you an instant positional advantage that can't be undone by just hitting the target. Dodge/Vamp give an instant minor positional advantage with a major mitigation advantage, where you cant be hit by a lot of abilities for a short frame.

Cloak on the other hand gives you a 3 second frame to potentially gain a positional advantage as well as an information advantage. Contrary to the other examples this can be instantly negated by Potion/AoE/Hunter/Magelight. A ramping cost would only make sense if Cloak could not be negated by such means.

Furthermore there is the issue with the implementation of such a penalty. How long should the ramping window last?
Anything under 3 seconds is meaningless and will only further punish newer NBs who can't cast it in a correct rhythm, a higher window would go counter to your point asking for parity between these abilities.

A suggestion that would be much more reasonable would be to disable Cloak for a few seconds after striking from stealth and/or to reveal the NB on preparing any attack while cloaked.

Also that myth of "strongest burst heal" is still going strong I see, let me counter with this list of abilities that heal more than Healthy Offering:

Dragon Knight:
Coagulating Blood under 90% health

Sorcerer:
Twilight Matriarch Heal
Vibrant Shroud with Blood Magic passive.

Templar:
Rushed Ceremony & morphs

Warden:
Polar Wind above 29k max health

Necromancer:
Render Flesh & morphs

Arcanist:
Runemend & morphs

Scribing:
Healing Soul

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in, I can't be sure which ability I should be casting, it affects my positioning in a way that nothing else in the game does, it affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

Cloak is undoubtedly one of the strongest abilities in the game, and has been for a while, but even more so now with the added major savagery on both bars. A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar, but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

NB main here, btw.

Stam NB isn't spamming cloak. They don't have enough Magicka.

Siphoning Attacks would like a word.

Amottica

Bashev wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

React wrote: »

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in.

Only if you're trying to re-detect a nightblade after they have successfully cloaked. That is not the way to counter nightblades.

I can't be sure which ability I should be casting

Even absent a detection potion or Sentry, you know exactly which ability you should be casting:

• Keep up Magelight or Camou Hunter. If anyone is scratching their head as to why those skills don't work, it's 95% because you needed to cast one of those abilities earlier, while the nightblade was still visible. That's the way those skills work effectively. Casting them after a nightblade has cloaked is the wrong thing to do. However:
• Immediately going into AOE spam also works quite well. Sweeps, Sap Essence, Whirlwind, DK Breath and so on.
• Streak immediately.

It affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

I will grant you that.

A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar

That may be true for your playstyle, but as a general statement this is completely wrong. I run a truly perma-cloaking magblade. I already pay the price for that in having to build heavily for sustain. I have been the underdog in terms of damage forever and ever, because of this. Yes, I can gank inexperienced players successfully, but I'm not an outright ganker. I am too weak for that. It is a utility playstyle that serves for questing, for Tel Var farming, as well as general PvP. A ramping cost would destroy that playstyle. I'm a veteran player, but I would argue that this type of playstyle helps new players, who adopt it, as much as it hurts new players who haven't yet learnt how to counter it.

but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

You're giving yourself an out by saying "in many scenarios". However, as someone who has actually played a perma-cloaking magblade since forever, please let me set the record straight. Such builds are neither invincible nor especially powerful on the attack. They are nice to play. They may allow you to bring Tel Var home. They're good at setting fire to siege, loitering in hostile keeps or for avoiding trouble and rezzing people.

That said, I must strongly object to you calling them "practically invincible". They are not. This is only true in so far as you can spend large amounts of time in a combat area without actually engaging. You're not accomplishing much either in that case.

Cloak on it's own is not a panacea. The skill that IMO comes closer to that, in a single cast, is Streak. Streak allows you to be relatively carefree via instant repositioning and stunning people. I'm not saying Streak is better, but it is easier to use. With Cloak you have to be more circumspect. It is never just Cloak. It is "Cloak and". Cloak and speed. Cloak and Shadow Image. The latter requires discipline, foresight, and being somewhat anchored to a location. The former - speed - requires yet more build compromises. Celerity CP. All Swift jewelry. Concealed slotted when you don't even want it actively (in my case). Race Against Time and the sustain to keep it up some while cloaking. You need to be not merely fast, you need to be the fastest. You need to be faster than every one of your opponents. That's when perma-cloaking really takes off as a defensive tool.

If you run into me and you think I'm invincible, it's because I'm that fast. However you need to bear in mind that that is my defense. I do my best with the tools we have nowadays, e.g. the Esoteric Greaves, to be tanky while the stamina lasts, but I'm fundamentally squishy af. Vampire is out for sustain reasons. Light armor is in for sustain reasons. That combination is gnarly for how squishy it leaves you.

Don't get me wrong. I'm happy with my playstyle. If anything, it's been buffed and become more viable over the years. However, please don't mistake that for thinking it's strong. If you're "invincible" by Cloak, you've compromised your build to make Cloak work well. I could run Tarnished Nightmare, but I don't have the weapon / spell damage for that to pay off like it does for other nightblades.

but would help alleviate the frustration

Why? Why dumb the game down even more? If we keep going in this direction, then frustration will ultimately give way to boredom. The skill gap is real, but the skill gap makes the game worthwhile. This is an l2p issue at the end of the day. I do get countered. When my build works, it's marvelous. When it doesn't, it's miserable. I can freely run in and out of an opposing faction siege, but only if there are a lot casuals. That said, I still have to use LoS and direction change like crazy too. At such times I wonder how these guys are not on top of me. Play against good players in IC (or Cyro) and it's a completely different story. Players who know how to use detection well can completely neutralise cloaking nightblades, including me. A single sorc remains my biggest counter, despite all that sustain and speed. Streak alone, but definitely Streak with a detection potion and sorc's raw damage is OP against Cloak.

This is a well-written post on countering the cloak. I have said before that not figuring out how to counter the cloak or choosing not to use the counters does not indicate a problem with the design.

In my small guild group, two players run counters to cloak and have no choice but to do so. When I run solo, which I like to hunt gankers around keeps, I run a counter to cloak and pawn NBs. They do work well.

With that in mind, a very skilled player is not a one-trick pony. They have more up their sleeve to evade than shadow disguise. It is the newer NB that relies on cloak and they tend to be easy to take out if one knows how to take them out of cloak.

Yes great guide for countering cloak Reroll Sorc. As I said the 2 OP classes non stop point out their OP skills.

I agree—it's a fabulous guide. However, skilled players in various classes can get the job done. It does not require rolling a sorc.

Amottica

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

React wrote: »

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

This has been a talking point for years and as always serves only as a litmus test for terrible ideas.

All the other examples have instant tactical advantages Sorc/Vamp/Bow give you an instant positional advantage that can't be undone by just hitting the target. Dodge/Vamp give an instant minor positional advantage with a major mitigation advantage, where you cant be hit by a lot of abilities for a short frame.

Cloak on the other hand gives you a 3 second frame to potentially gain a positional advantage as well as an information advantage. Contrary to the other examples this can be instantly negated by Potion/AoE/Hunter/Magelight. A ramping cost would only make sense if Cloak could not be negated by such means.

Furthermore there is the issue with the implementation of such a penalty. How long should the ramping window last?
Anything under 3 seconds is meaningless and will only further punish newer NBs who can't cast it in a correct rhythm, a higher window would go counter to your point asking for parity between these abilities.

A suggestion that would be much more reasonable would be to disable Cloak for a few seconds after striking from stealth and/or to reveal the NB on preparing any attack while cloaked.

Also that myth of "strongest burst heal" is still going strong I see, let me counter with this list of abilities that heal more than Healthy Offering:

Dragon Knight:
Coagulating Blood under 90% health

Sorcerer:
Twilight Matriarch Heal
Vibrant Shroud with Blood Magic passive.

Templar:
Rushed Ceremony & morphs

Warden:
Polar Wind above 29k max health

Necromancer:
Render Flesh & morphs

Arcanist:
Runemend & morphs

Scribing:
Healing Soul

Not being able to track a target due to them being invisible is a lot more impactful than you're giving it credit. It means I don't know which direction I should be moving or turning my camera in, I can't be sure which ability I should be casting, it affects my positioning in a way that nothing else in the game does, it affects my perception of a fight as I can't be sure how many players I'm actually fighting.

Cloak is undoubtedly one of the strongest abilities in the game, and has been for a while, but even more so now with the added major savagery on both bars. A ramping cost would hardly impact the ability in a way that it would make you drop it from your bar, but would help alleviate the frustration of fighting people (or groups of people) who rely on spamming it to be practically invincible in many scenarios.

NB main here, btw.

Stam NB isn't spamming cloak. They don't have enough Magicka.

Well, they can if they are allowed. It all comes down to the player attacking the and what they permit or allow to happen.

fred4

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Also also You don't need to spam cloak to be invisible, usually You need like 2-3 cloak casts to smoothly go from cloak invisibility to regular stealth invisibility.

Exactly and a 33% cost increase will only marginally affect your ability to cloak 3 times in a row. This is why I'm puzzled as to how this affects hardcore players. It would, on the other hand, completely destroy my playstyle. A playstyle which Joy Division described thusly:

"The sort of NB that you describe and how you play ... I and the vast majority of players with experience are not worried about. That NB is nothing more than a nuisance and an irritant."

This arguably describes not just me, but also new (solo) players who lean on Cloak to get their feet wet in PvP.

Joy Division implied he is more experienced than me when, in reality, he simply doesn't know me. No, I'm not a top player, but I've played for 9 years, with most of that time spent in open world PvP. This is how I'm at least able to judge Aurielle's video. That video showed Aurielle as a bow ganker, killing a target who, for one reason or another, didn't defend. I grant you that everyone may have different reasons for a Cloak nerf, but if I am to believe that Cloak is imbalanced at the high level, then this wasn't an example of it.

I do not accept, by the way, that the game is or should be balanced strictly according to the needs of experienced players. Not that ZOS have been doing that. I think they have walked a tightrope between balancing for experienced players and accomodating new ones, and also in balancing what's too effective with retaining what is fun. In my view too many things have already been sacrificed on the altar of balance, such as the original reflecting DK wings. IMO the game has become more bland as a result.

In other words, there ought to be a compelling case for modifying Cloak. I don't see that here. Indeed what I see instead is a bunch of experienced players trying to weaken a tool that less experienced players lean on, the change of which doesn't impact the experienced ones all that much. You got to wonder why.

Turtle_Bot

fred4 wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Also also You don't need to spam cloak to be invisible, usually You need like 2-3 cloak casts to smoothly go from cloak invisibility to regular stealth invisibility.

Exactly and a 33% cost increase will only marginally affect your ability to cloak 3 times in a row. This is why I'm puzzled as to how this affects hardcore players. It would, on the other hand, completely destroy my playstyle. A playstyle which Joy Division described thusly:

"The sort of NB that you describe and how you play ... I and the vast majority of players with experience are not worried about. That NB is nothing more than a nuisance and an irritant."

This arguably describes not just me, but also new (solo) players who lean on Cloak to get their feet wet in PvP.

Joy Division implied he is more experienced than me when, in reality, he simply doesn't know me. No, I'm not a top player, but I've played for 9 years, with most of that time spent in open world PvP. This is how I'm at least able to judge Aurielle's video. That video showed Aurielle as a bow ganker, killing a target who, for one reason or another, didn't defend. I grant you that everyone may have different reasons for a Cloak nerf, but if I am to believe that Cloak is imbalanced at the high level, then this wasn't an example of it.

I do not accept, by the way, that the game is or should be balanced strictly according to the needs of experienced players. Not that ZOS have been doing that. I think they have walked a tightrope between balancing for experienced players and accomodating new ones, and also in balancing what's too effective with retaining what is fun. In my view too many things have already been sacrificed on the altar of balance, such as the original reflecting DK wings. IMO the game has become more bland as a result.

In other words, there ought to be a compelling case for modifying Cloak. I don't see that here. Indeed what I see instead is a bunch of experienced players trying to weaken a tool that less experienced players lean on, the change of which doesn't impact the experienced ones all that much. You got to wonder why.

@fred4 Since you think that cloak is fine just how it is and is not in need of adjustment, because that would, and I quote, "completely destroy your playstyle", then let me ask you the following questions.

1. What change would you make to cloak or to NB in general to balance the class in PvP when used by top players without "ruining it for the rest"?
2. What is your opinion on Hardened ward in its current state? (I will explain the reason for this question further once we have an answer)

Aurielle

KingLewie_III wrote: »

I just wanted to say I find it hilarious anyone in this thread is trying to debate React like he doesn't know how to play NB lmao.

And now even Joy Division is getting roped into it!

I said I was done, but one of my biggest pet peeves is when people deliberately miss the point and then double down on it to suit their own agenda, so I just want to put one thing straight -- again.

Fred, stop focusing so hard on the fact that the player I killed didn't react (I already gave you the number one reason why a player wouldn't have been able to react to being killed from stealth in two seconds). I didn't post that video to show me ganking a player or even to show me abusing cloak; I posted that video to show you personally that it's possible for any nightblade to simply farm Tel Var, reset fights, and kill players in near permanent stealth-mode without having to invest into sustain at all, because the NB's toolkit is already so powerful for sustain. You, on the other hand, say you've had to invest very deep into sustain to run around IC in near permanent stealth-mode while questing / farming Tel Var and engaging in PVP, to the point where your damage suffers, because you're cloaking constantly while on the move. You say that because you've had to invest so heavily into sustain, adding a ramping magicka cost to cloak would destroy your build and your playstyle. (Why are you cloaking constantly instead of spending most of your time in crouch anyway? Cloak only when you need to, like the rest of us, and you won't have sustain issues.)

Once more, I was simply trying to demonstrate to you that you really don't need to build the way you've built yourself to achieve your ultimate goal: zipping around IC in permanent stealth. Hell, you aren't even a vampire, "for sustain reasons." Not running at least stage 2 vamp on a NB is a deliberate self-gimp, both for damage and for mobility, something that's evidently important to you. You can easily run around IC as a stage 2 or 3 vamp in permanent stealth with major and minor expedition up at all times and no sustain issues without needing to gimp yourself like you have. I didn't have major expedition up in my video, but I could have easily done so. If I'd known the speed aspect was so important to you, I would have focused more on that.

So to repeat what I said earlier, balancing cloak around someone's niche sustain/speed build that involves constant, unnecessary cloak spam is not the way to go. Cloak should be balanced around the standard NB build and the standard way in which NBs spam cloak: offensively to proc certain damage bonuses, and defensively during short windows to completely reset fights. All other escape tools have ramping costs, and there's no valid reason why cloak shouldn't also have ramping costs. The purpose of ramping costs is not to destroy cloak as an escape or offensive tool, but rather to balance it.

Tommy_The_Gun

The reason why cloak & invisibility skills do not have ramping cost is because they have hard counters instead. Hard counter = things that prohibit the use of the skill or outright cancel its effect. Things like detection potions or detection skills etc. On top of hard counters, there are also soft counters that can minimize the effectiveness of invisibility (dot, aoe dot, CC etc).

Roll dodge, streak or bow scribing skill for example do have ramping cost because those abilities do not have any hard counters present in the game. There are no skills or potions that would prevent the use of those skills or that would cancel the effect. Those abilities only have soft counters that can minimize the effects of the skill. Like some gap closers that can minimize the final result of the streak or in case of roll-dodge - aoe abilities that can not be dodged.

ZOS balanced the game this way, so I guess the only way invisibility skills can have ramping cost added is if all of the invisibilty hard counters would be removed or at the very least toned down significantly.

Aurielle

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The reason why cloak & invisibility skills do not have ramping cost is because they have hard counters instead. Hard counter = things that prohibit the use of the skill or outright cancel its effect. Things like detection potions or detection skills etc. On top of hard counters, there are also soft counters that can minimize the effectiveness of invisibility (dot, aoe dot, CC etc).

Roll dodge, streak or bow scribing skill for example do have ramping cost because those abilities do not have any hard counters present in the game. There are no skills or potions that would prevent the use of those skills or that would cancel the effect. Those abilities only have soft counters that can minimize the effects of the skill. Like some gap closers that can minimize the final result of the streak or in case of roll-dodge - aoe abilities that can not be dodged.

ZOS balanced the game this way, so I guess the only way invisibility skills can have ramping cost added is if all of the invisibilty hard counters would be removed or at the very least toned down significantly.

The hard counters to cloak force every other class to slot skills or potions that are often completely unnecessary for their builds, taking away another potential source of damage or another buff -- that in and of itself gives NBs an additional advantage above and beyond the extremely powerful advantage of invisibility on demand. Sure, tone down the hard counters slightly if we must to account for ramping costs on cloak, but nerfing hard counters "significantly" would take us right back to square one. Invisibility is far more powerful as an escape tool than skills that merely enable rapid repositioning, so yes, it needs some hard counters.

Tommy_The_Gun

Aurielle wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The reason why cloak & invisibility skills do not have ramping cost is because they have hard counters instead. Hard counter = things that prohibit the use of the skill or outright cancel its effect. Things like detection potions or detection skills etc. On top of hard counters, there are also soft counters that can minimize the effectiveness of invisibility (dot, aoe dot, CC etc).

Roll dodge, streak or bow scribing skill for example do have ramping cost because those abilities do not have any hard counters present in the game. There are no skills or potions that would prevent the use of those skills or that would cancel the effect. Those abilities only have soft counters that can minimize the effects of the skill. Like some gap closers that can minimize the final result of the streak or in case of roll-dodge - aoe abilities that can not be dodged.

ZOS balanced the game this way, so I guess the only way invisibility skills can have ramping cost added is if all of the invisibilty hard counters would be removed or at the very least toned down significantly.

The hard counters to cloak force every other class to slot skills or potions that are often completely unnecessary for their builds, taking away another potential source of damage or another buff -- that in and of itself gives NBs an additional advantage above and beyond the extremely powerful advantage of invisibility on demand. Sure, tone down the hard counters slightly if we must to account for ramping costs on cloak, but nerfing hard counters "significantly" would take us right back to square one. Invisibility is far more powerful as an escape tool than skills that merely enable rapid repositioning, so yes, it needs some hard counters.

I am not sure if I understand. Flare gives major protection just for slotting. How this is not a part of a PvP build ? ZOS provides very effective tools to deal with invisibility mechanics and just not using those tools & complain seems a bit silly to me. And just like I have mentioned with Flare - those detection skills provides significant buffs just for slotting them. And if by some chance one would not use them - then there are also potions, sets and even direct damage aoe skills that will interupt invisibility.

Besides... if you mentioned that the need to use dedicated counter skill is too much... then how would nerfing those skills affect builds that don't use them anyway ? It just does not make sense.

To me it looks like: "I want to have a cake & eat a cake". You know... I want to adapt my PvP build to be better without changing the build...

If some one has troubles with NBs still in 2024, then perhaps it would be a good idea to make a NB character, play a bit with it (yes, in PvP), see how it operates & then you will know exactly how to deal them

Bashev

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

The reason why cloak & invisibility skills do not have ramping cost is because they have hard counters instead. Hard counter = things that prohibit the use of the skill or outright cancel its effect. Things like detection potions or detection skills etc. On top of hard counters, there are also soft counters that can minimize the effectiveness of invisibility (dot, aoe dot, CC etc).

Roll dodge, streak or bow scribing skill for example do have ramping cost because those abilities do not have any hard counters present in the game. There are no skills or potions that would prevent the use of those skills or that would cancel the effect. Those abilities only have soft counters that can minimize the effects of the skill. Like some gap closers that can minimize the final result of the streak or in case of roll-dodge - aoe abilities that can not be dodged.

ZOS balanced the game this way, so I guess the only way invisibility skills can have ramping cost added is if all of the invisibilty hard counters would be removed or at the very least toned down significantly.

The hard counters to cloak force every other class to slot skills or potions that are often completely unnecessary for their builds, taking away another potential source of damage or another buff -- that in and of itself gives NBs an additional advantage above and beyond the extremely powerful advantage of invisibility on demand. Sure, tone down the hard counters slightly if we must to account for ramping costs on cloak, but nerfing hard counters "significantly" would take us right back to square one. Invisibility is far more powerful as an escape tool than skills that merely enable rapid repositioning, so yes, it needs some hard counters.

I am not sure if I understand. Flare gives major protection just for slotting. How this is not a part of a PvP build ? ZOS provides very effective tools to deal with invisibility mechanics and just not using those tools & complain seems a bit silly to me.

Back in the days there were tons of tools to counter reflective wings too but you had to slot them. Still ZoS nerfed the skill because of that.