End of chapter bosses?

BasP · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

I'm not suggesting they make everything easy, just that they bring the difficulty of the end-of-story quest bosses in line with the rest of the story so that everyone can finish it.

But everything else in the stories is easy. We can beat the current bosses with ease now with non meta builds, as hampered as I am in my prior post. If you make them any easier, we're back in the same trap of having inconsequential stories with too-easy end bosses. "Too easy" has plagued this games retention for a long time.

If we're not getting a difficulty slider, ZoS have to plant the difficulty flag somewhere. Where it is now allows everyone who can follow mechanics to easily kill every end of story boss. The mechanics are usually shouted at you by the NPC joining you.

A proper difficulty slider would be a great addition to the game, in my opinion. I've basically stopped doing Main Quests due to the easy end bosses, hoping that someday something will be introduced that optionally makes them (a lot) more difficult. That would make those fights - and the quest lines themselves - more memorable. If bosses could be as difficult as some of West Weald's World Bosses, for example, that would be nice.

At the same time, I sympathise with those who can't finish the quests for whatever reason, and a difficulty slider could fix that too.

colossalvoids · October 19

The ideal solution would be to have bosses easier (idk to what extent if people already having issues, probably slashing everything x2 might not be enough as there always will be people who have worse ping or player output overall) and have a scroll rising it to normal difficulty (which is definitely higher than it is now) and a HM banner/scrolls to make those a veteran solo arena level of difficulty which would at least make for a memorable encounter if the story isn't one to write songs about (so last couple of years at least).

AzuraFan · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

But everything else in the stories is easy. We can beat the current bosses with ease now with non meta builds, as hampered as I am in my prior post. If you make them any easier, we're back in the same trap of having inconsequential stories with too-easy end bosses. "Too easy" has plagued this games retention for a long time.

If we're not getting a difficulty slider, ZoS have to plant the difficulty flag somewhere. Where it is now allows everyone who can follow mechanics to easily kill every end of story boss. The mechanics are usually shouted at you by the NPC joining you.

ZOS planted the difficulty flag in the wrong place. It's bad design to plant it at the end of a questline that's been quite easy up to that point (and should be, since it's the main story questline). We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm completely on board with a difficulty slider, or a buff (or debuff, depending) for those who want it. Or for a scroll that players can use to ramp up the difficulty, just like with the undaunted quests.

I'm not on board with making and keeping these bosses at the difficulty they're at now, because there are players giving it their best shot, but they just can't beat them. Which means they can't finish a story they paid for, after putting in the hours to get to the end.

It doesn't matter that there are players like me who can beat them easily with a non-meta build, or players like you who can beat them with a naked character using a toothpick. What matters is that some of our fellow gamers in this community pay good money for a chapter and they'd like to complete the story. For whatever reason, the story bosses in the later chapters are too difficult for them.

We can do one of two things. We can say, tough, get gud, what's your problem? Or we can say, well, it's the story and they've made it to the end. Let's be gracious to our fellow gamers and try to find a solution that will let them finish the story. If ZOS won't add a way to set the difficulty, then lowering the difficulty of the end-of-story bosses is the only way. It's one boss, and it won't matter much when all is said and done.

DenverRalphy · October 19

The most difficult thing to deal with in any of the zone/story questlines, is the patience required to sit through all the scripted dialog.

If chapter bosses are nerfed any more, then scripted dialog would be the only gateway to handing out free rewards.

OsUfi · October 19

AzuraFan wrote: »

We can do one of two things. We can say, tough, get gud, what's your problem? Or we can say, well, it's the story and they've made it to the end. Let's be gracious to our fellow gamers and try to find a solution that will let them finish the story. If ZOS won't add a way to set the difficulty, then lowering the difficulty of the end-of-story bosses is the only way.

Or we can say "show us your build, and we can give you pointers," we can also say "what time and day are you available, we can swing through and help you with that boss." We can also say "go in wearing Leeching Plate and Crimson Twilight," two easy to get gear sets, there's maybe one mechanic you couldn't live through in all of the end of story bosses (Breton epilogue lava?).

They have options. Lowering the difficulty is not the only way.

SilverBride · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

We can do one of two things. We can say, tough, get gud, what's your problem? Or we can say, well, it's the story and they've made it to the end. Let's be gracious to our fellow gamers and try to find a solution that will let them finish the story. If ZOS won't add a way to set the difficulty, then lowering the difficulty of the end-of-story bosses is the only way.

Or we can say "show us your build, and we can give you pointers," we can also say "what time and day are you available, we can swing through and help you with that boss." We can also say "go in wearing Leeching Plate and Crimson Twilight," two easy to get gear sets, there's maybe one mechanic you couldn't live through in all of the end of story bosses (Breton epilogue lava?).

They have options. Lowering the difficulty is not the only way.

Everyone doesn't have those options. Some players have physical limitations, or time limitations, or just plain aren't proficient at combat. The difficulty should be brought back down to how it was before all this started with High Isle.

If players want harder story bosses give them a hard mode option. But leave the rest alone to complete the story that they paid for.

Pelanora · October 19

I have no problems with games or sports or hobbies being hard and in the end after learning and help still being too hard for some people.

OsUfi · October 19

SilverBride wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

We can do one of two things. We can say, tough, get gud, what's your problem? Or we can say, well, it's the story and they've made it to the end. Let's be gracious to our fellow gamers and try to find a solution that will let them finish the story. If ZOS won't add a way to set the difficulty, then lowering the difficulty of the end-of-story bosses is the only way.

Or we can say "show us your build, and we can give you pointers," we can also say "what time and day are you available, we can swing through and help you with that boss." We can also say "go in wearing Leeching Plate and Crimson Twilight," two easy to get gear sets, there's maybe one mechanic you couldn't live through in all of the end of story bosses (Breton epilogue lava?).

They have options. Lowering the difficulty is not the only way.

Everyone doesn't have those options. Some players have physical limitations, or time limitations, or just plain aren't proficient at combat. The difficulty should be brought back down to how it was before all this started with High Isle.

If players want harder story bosses give them a hard mode option. But leave the rest alone to complete the story that they paid for.

Everyone can ask for help from other players, both on the forum and in guilds. Everyone can wear Crimson Twilight and Leeching Plate, stand still, cast the odd heal maybe, and the boss will die attacking you. Shove health runes on and you can ignore all but one mech as far as I remember.

Everybody has these options.

I guess some players can be given solutions to problems, but just refuse to accept them.

Nharimlur_Finor · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

Everyone can ask for help from other players, both on the forum and in guilds. Everyone can wear Crimson Twilight and Leeching Plate, stand still, cast the odd heal maybe, and the boss will die attacking you. Shove health runes on and you can ignore all but one mech as far as I remember.

Everybody has these options.

I guess some players can be given solutions to problems, but just refuse to accept them.

Crimson Twilight and Leeching Plate are both dungeon sets; and comparatively speaking, not easy dungeons. Crimson Twilight is also DLC. You really can't use the term 'everyone can wear' in that context.

ICP and Castle Thorn are dungeons that I've rolled on random queue; they aren't ones that I'd specifically choose.
My own performance in both can best be described as "carried".

SilverBride · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

Everybody has these options.

I guess some players can be given solutions to problems, but just refuse to accept them.

These options don't work for everyone for reasons that have been stated. And traditionally the story bosses have been in a solo instance, so why the change? And I would never ask to group for these because it takes away from me being THE hero.

There was a change to these bosses with High Isle and they have gotten progressively more difficult from what they were the many years before then. Why?

I don't understand the pushback to put things back to what they were so many can once again enjoy and succeed at the story as they have all along before this change. Especially when there can easily be a hard mode for those that enjoy a more difficult fight.

Why not correct something that isn't working well for so many and is preventing them from completing the story they paid for?

OsUfi · October 19

SilverBride wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

Everybody has these options.

I guess some players can be given solutions to problems, but just refuse to accept them.

These options don't work for everyone for reasons that have been stated. And traditionally the story bosses have been in a solo instance, so why the change? And I would never ask to group for these because it takes away from me being THE hero.

There was a change to these bosses with High Isle and they have gotten progressively more difficult from what they were the many years before then. Why?

I don't understand the pushback to put things back to what they were so many can once again enjoy and succeed at the story as they have all along before this change. Especially when there can easily be a hard mode for those that enjoy a more difficult fight.

OK, addressing each part of this. Everybody has the options for asking for help and wearing tanky gear. Whether you want to or not is up to you. The only solo instance boss in a main story I'm aware of is Molag Bal.

The bosses from High Isle onwards have gotten a bit harder as there was a common complaint that they felt like no threat to the point where it detracted from the story experience. BasP right at the top of this page even says they've stopped doing main stories because of this. It's a regular complaint from people reviewing ESO. Story bosses that are too easy has been an issue for a long time.

The pushback is there for the above reasons. I have stated in the threads from a month or so ago, and even in this one, that I'm fine with a difficulty slider. But until ZoS introduce one, they've had to set the end bosses at a difficulty that anyone can complete. And anyone can complete them if they ask for help or gear up a little bit different.

TaSheen · October 19

Neither the High Isle boss nor that damned dragon in N Elsweyr were able to be grouped for - a friend was going to help, got to the same part of both quests that I was on, and was not able to enter the same instance.

spartaxoxo · October 19

TaSheen wrote: »

Neither the High Isle boss nor that damned dragon in N Elsweyr were able to be grouped for - a friend was going to help, got to the same part of both quests that I was on, and was not able to enter the same instance.

That's an easy fix they should do right now.

SilverBride · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

The only solo instance boss in a main story I'm aware of is Molag Bal.

This is not correct, as @TaSheen pointed out above.

OsUfi wrote: »

The bosses from High Isle onwards have gotten a bit harder as there was a common complaint that they felt like no threat to the point where it detracted from the story experience.

They have gotten progressively more difficulty with every new chapter. Being unable to defeat these bosses and complete the story is way more distracting than just thinking they were too easy.

OsUfi wrote: »

... they've had to set the end bosses at a difficulty that anyone can complete...

If this was the goal it failed because MANY are now unable to complete the zone story. It's a realy shame that a lot of players are being locked out of the main story and this needs to be looked at and corrected.

Since you and I are unable to find a middle ground that is all I will respond to, so lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

spartaxoxo · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

And anyone can complete them if they ask for help or gear up a little bit different.

The issue isn't the gear, it's the timing on the mechs. That's appears to be the main feedback from those that find it difficult. Using the synergy in time, running to the right place before the lava gets them, and things like that.

TaSheen · October 19

spartaxoxo wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Neither the High Isle boss nor that damned dragon in N Elsweyr were able to be grouped for - a friend was going to help, got to the same part of both quests that I was on, and was not able to enter the same instance.

That's an easy fix they should do right now.

Yes. If they did that, then I'd have no reason to not finish the stories any more. I have friends who'd help. They just haven't been able to.

OsUfi · October 19

SilverBride wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

The only solo instance boss in a main story I'm aware of is Molag Bal.

This is not correct, as @TaSheen pointed out above.

There's at least two people in this thread that have done these bosses as a duo. If it's a bug, 100%, ZoS should fix it.

SilverBride wrote: »

They have gotten progressively more difficulty with every new chapter. Being unable to defeat these bosses and complete the story is way more distracting than just thinking they were too easy.

Well, maybe for you. But when it stops others from being able to play the story because it's too easy, it's no better than it being too hard for a small minority that can't accept help.

SilverBride wrote: »

If this was the goal it failed because MANY are now unable to complete the zone story. It's a realy shame that a lot of players are being locked out of the main story and this needs to be looked at and corrected.

They can be completed by anyone that accepts help, either with build or gear.

SilverBride wrote: »

Since you and I are unable to find a middle ground that is all I will respond to, so lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Sure, but I'll say once again, I'd be happy with a difficulty slider. Let's both hope that someday ZoS creates one.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

And anyone can complete them if they ask for help or gear up a little bit different.

The issue isn't the gear, it's the timing on the mechs. That's appears to be the main feedback from those that find it difficult. Using the synergy in time, running to the right place before the lava gets them, and things like that.

I get that. And as I said in an above post, with Leeching and Twilight (or another life drain gear combo), throw some health runes on, and they can pretty much ignore all but one mech. I believe the only insta kill mech in the last few boss fights is Breton story lava thing. Even that was a brief drink in lava? Heck, you might even be able to tank through that with a single heal on the bar.

spartaxoxo · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

I get that. And as I said in an above post, with Leeching and Twilight (or another life drain gear combo), throw some health runes on, and they can pretty much ignore all but one mech. I believe the only insta kill mech in the last few boss fights is Breton story lava thing. Even that was a brief drink in lava? Heck, you might even be able to tank through that with a single heal on the bar.

If someone can't get past the story boss mechs, what makes you think they can get those sets.

In order for gear to be accessible to everyone, it would have to be base game, unbound, or require very few crafting traits.

A brand new level 17 just buying the new game to try out doesn't have access to most dlc. And they aren't high enough level to enter the ic dungeons. They may not know anyone yet either.

OsUfi · October 19

spartaxoxo wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

I get that. And as I said in an above post, with Leeching and Twilight (or another life drain gear combo), throw some health runes on, and they can pretty much ignore all but one mech. I believe the only insta kill mech in the last few boss fights is Breton story lava thing. Even that was a brief drink in lava? Heck, you might even be able to tank through that with a single heal on the bar.

If someone can't get past the story boss mechs, what makes you think they can get those sets.

In order for gear to be accessible to everyone, it would have to be base game, unbound, or require very few crafting traits.

Because they can deffo ask for help getting those sets. I also said "Or another life drain combo". Bharahas in heavy. Maybe Overwhelming Surge? That has has a life drain.

What is with this thread and people refusing to ask for help in an MMORPG?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A brand new level 17 just buying the new game to try out doesn't have access to most dlc. And they aren't high enough level to enter the ic dungeons. They may not know anyone yet either.

That was answered last page.

spartaxoxo · October 19

OsUfi wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

I get that. And as I said in an above post, with Leeching and Twilight (or another life drain gear combo), throw some health runes on, and they can pretty much ignore all but one mech. I believe the only insta kill mech in the last few boss fights is Breton story lava thing. Even that was a brief drink in lava? Heck, you might even be able to tank through that with a single heal on the bar.

If someone can't get past the story boss mechs, what makes you think they can get those sets.

In order for gear to be accessible to everyone, it would have to be base game, unbound, or require very few crafting traits.

A brand new level 17 just buying the new game to try out doesn't have access to most dlc. And they aren't high enough level to enter the ic dungeons. They may not know anyone yet either.

Because they can deffo ask for help getting those sets. I also said "Or another life drain combo". Bharahas in heavy. Maybe Overwhelming Surge? That has has a life drain.

What is with this thread and people refusing to ask for help in an MMORPG?

When you're level 17 and brand new, a lot of people don't know anyone to ask. And not everyone is able to just easily ask strangers. Some people are able to get help by meeting people more naturally, such as when they're out and about questing or during an activity finder run.

A level 17 with no friends that already knew can't use the activity finder for that dungeon and has nobody they know to ask.

Bharahas comes from the Thieves Guild, which they also wouldn't have access too.

Tempest Island unlocks at level 26.

Parasaurolophus · October 19

SilverBride wrote: »

It may be hard for some players to understand how the story bosses are difficult for other players to defeat but that doesn't change the fact that many are now unable to complete the zone story because of it.

The fact that some don't understand or that they disagree doesn't change someone else's reality.

And yet, no one has any specific statistics yet, so it is not correct to say whether it is many or not.

SilverBride · October 19

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It may be hard for some players to understand how the story bosses are difficult for other players to defeat but that doesn't change the fact that many are now unable to complete the zone story because of it.

The fact that some don't understand or that they disagree doesn't change someone else's reality.

And yet, no one has any specific statistics yet, so it is not correct to say whether it is many or not.

Even one is one too many. But it is more than that, which is what these threads are addressing.

spartaxoxo · October 19

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

And yet, no one has any specific statistics yet, so it is not correct to say whether it is many or not.

You're right about that. I personally doubt it's a lot of people but I don't think that matters. For one, the group that normally plays a chapter and then leaves left this chapter faster than usual. We saw that on the Steam Chart back when it was happening. It's certainly possible that difficulty was a reason for that. I imagine some of the people who only play the quests once a year aren't super familiar with the game's mechs.

Also, what matters to me is some can't beat it now and there's some changes that ZOS can make that makes it beatable for them and more engaging for me at the same time.

At the very least, they should allow the bosses from High Isle and Up to be grouped up if they aren't allowing for that. I haven't tried so IDK.

spartaxoxo · October 19

SilverBride wrote: »

Even one is one too many. But it is more than that, which is what these threads are addressing.

Are you one of them? I don't think you are but just checking. Anyway, I think only a few people have expressed that they have difficulty in these threads. Most the posts in favor of it seem to be from the place of "It doesn't matter to me but do it for them. And add some difficulty options so the bosses can actually good for people who want harder bosses too while you're at it." I know I am and have seen other posts like that.

SilverBride · October 19

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Even one is one too many. But it is more than that, which is what these threads are addressing.

Are you one of them? I don't think you are but just checking. Anyway, I think only a few people have expressed that they have difficulty in these threads. Most the posts in favor of it seem to be from the place of "It doesn't matter to me but do it for them. And add some difficulty options so the bosses can actually good for people who want harder bosses too while you're at it." I know I am and have seen other posts like that.

No, I'm not one. I am able to beat these story bosses on all 7 of my characters. But I care about those that no longer can. The story is as important to them as it is to me and they deserve to be able to complete them.

The story is the heart and soul of this game. All should be able to succeed at completing it.

Pelanora · October 19

if theres forced solo bosses, they can do difficulty sliders, or if thats a hassle, mechanics offering emergency powerful heals or extra powerful potions lying around for stronger resistance, or whatever. Theres ways to do it ive seen in other games.

Or, they let people group, and keep it as it is.

But, they shouldnt just offer extremely simple bosses to deal with issues for one group of players, which will then just create issues for a whole other group of players.

SilverBride · October 19

Pelanora wrote: »

But, they shouldnt just offer extremely simple bosses to deal with issues for one group of players, which will then just create issues for a whole other group of players.

By the same token, they shouldn't make these bosses increasingly difficult to deal with one group because it will, and is, creating issues for a whole other group of players.

There is a very obvious increase in difficulty since High Isle, and with each new chapter they ramp up this difficulty a little more. I suspect this may be in response to complaints that story bosses die too fast, but it is having a very detrimental effect on the rest of the player base.

TaSheen · October 20

SilverBride wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

But, they shouldnt just offer extremely simple bosses to deal with issues for one group of players, which will then just create issues for a whole other group of players.

By the same token, they shouldn't make these bosses increasingly difficult to deal with one group because it will, and is, creating issues for a whole other group of players.

There is a very obvious increase in difficulty since High Isle, and with each new chapter they ramp up this difficulty a little more. I suspect this may be in response to complaints that story bosses die too fast, but it is having a very detrimental effect on the rest of the player base.

And.... that's the best bottom line reason I know to offer a slider for difficulty. But I do not actually feel as if this games devs want to do that. And at some point, I will simply have to no longer play - or pay.

Pelanora · October 20

SilverBride wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

But, they shouldnt just offer extremely simple bosses to deal with issues for one group of players, which will then just create issues for a whole other group of players.

By the same token, they shouldn't make these bosses increasingly difficult to deal with one group because it will, and is, creating issues for a whole other group of players.

There is a very obvious increase in difficulty since High Isle, and with each new chapter they ramp up this difficulty a little more. I suspect this may be in response to complaints that story bosses die too fast, but it is having a very detrimental effect on the rest of the player base.

But there's ways to offer support, as I described. Other games manage it fine.

A boss that's crazy easy can't be made more interesting but a tough boss can have other game mechanics introduced to help players who struggle, even if it's just potions lying around that will carry someone through.

Tbh I don't see the obvious increase in difficulty since high isle you keep referring to as I started straight with summerset with no mmo experience and found doing that at level 15 or 20 plenty hard. But I figured it out.

SilverBride · October 20

Pelanora wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

But, they shouldnt just offer extremely simple bosses to deal with issues for one group of players, which will then just create issues for a whole other group of players.

By the same token, they shouldn't make these bosses increasingly difficult to deal with one group because it will, and is, creating issues for a whole other group of players.

There is a very obvious increase in difficulty since High Isle, and with each new chapter they ramp up this difficulty a little more. I suspect this may be in response to complaints that story bosses die too fast, but it is having a very detrimental effect on the rest of the player base.

But there's ways to offer support, as I described. Other games manage it fine.

A boss that's crazy easy can't be made more interesting but a tough boss can have other game mechanics introduced to help players who struggle, even if it's just potions lying around that will carry someone through.

Tbh I don't see the obvious increase in difficulty since high isle you keep referring to as I started straight with summerset with no mmo experience and found doing that at level 15 or 20 plenty hard. But I figured it out.

I notice the increase in difficulty. High Isle is when I first remember seeing immune phases on Story Bosses (If I am remembering correctly). It took me a few tries the first time I encountered that Boss because of this, but once I figured it out I was fine.

But these fights have gotten longer and longer with each new chapter and I can understand how this is a problem for some players.

My biggest complaint is how tedious the final fights are, particularly in West Weald. Having multiple immune phases that require the player to repeatedly perform the same action multiple times during each immune phase was painfully tedious. I used to enjoy the Story Boss fights but I actually dreaded these every time another of my characters reached that point.

This same thing has completely destroyed the fun I used to have with World Bosses and Public Dungeon Group Events, too. A longer flight isn't automatically more fun, or even more challenging. It's just longer.

I agree that there are things they can do so that everyone can get a battle they enjoy. I would like to see hard mode scrolls, and even easy mode scrolls for those that struggle, just for the Story Bosses. And PLEASE stop with all the immune phases.