Average Acceptable DPS now for vet dungeons?

ssewallb14_ESO

As you probably noticed from the replies this kind of thread usually winds up with:

1. People who at least somewhat understand the context.
2. People who don't understand the difference between DPS on the raid dummy and DPS in a specific context.
3. People who think acceptable/ok/decent/whatever means high enough to skip or brute force all mechanics.

As such you get all kinds of random answers and the end result isn't especially helpful.

alpha_synuclein

30K DPS

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

As you probably noticed from the replies this kind of thread usually winds up with:

1. People who at least somewhat understand the context.
2. People who don't understand the difference between DPS on the raid dummy and DPS in a specific context.
3. People who think acceptable/ok/decent/whatever means high enough to skip or brute force all mechanics.

As such you get all kinds of random answers and the end result isn't especially helpful.

It's helpful in a way. It shows the range of people one can meet in a pug.

coop500

25K DPS

@ssewallb14_ESO Yes I've noticed it's quite all over the place, and rather demoralizing.

I stopped playing ESO for awhile because everyone was like 'XYZ DPS is so easy! How can you not do it? Are you stupid?' comments everywhere while I was trying my hardest, reading guides, changing gear, farming gear, practicing rotations and stuff, and couldn't get even half of what so many people claim is so easy most of the time. OR when I was finally getting close, ZOS nerf hammer came down and I was back to square one.

This thread made me realize something about my brain is just better suited for healing or tanking. I don't know why, I've done some crazy hard content as support roles just fine, but as soon as I try DPS, I just cannot reach the numbers that people claim are so easy.

Soarora

30K DPS

colossalvoids wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

The main thing I've learned from this is that A: Nobody's ever happy no matter how I worded this question, and B: I shouldn't bother trying to play vet dungeons with a DPS character.

You actually should as otherwise you won't progress much in that department. You shouldn't really concern yourself with what other players want or prefer but dive in and see how it goes, if something or someone is bothering you too much you can always leave or go into offline mode at that.

No one started as a good dps, my first vet dungeon was a mistake queue that ended up in the dlc one, and at that time it was insanely hard one, not that there were any other dungeon packs yet to compare but it was not a place for me but team endured. Now I'm the person who endure if new player joins and help out if possible, that's the circle of life so to say.

Tldr: no dummy will help you enough if you don't simultaneously do dungeons of your preferred difficulty. Experience is the best teacher here.

This. I played terribly in DLC dungeons all the time when I was newer. I’m talking sustain set, heavy armor selfish healing set, bow/bow hybrid before hybridization. Got kicked from a few. I quit and swapped to healer while I learned more about content and when I got back to DPS I knew a lot more and did a lot more damage.

As a side note too though about the original question, since this is in-content DPS, the supports are also important here. A tank in ebon/leeching/bogdan is going to make the group DPS noticeably worse than a tank in turning tide/tremor/drakes rush (there’s other good sets, just an example). With a healer, hiti’s hearth/olorime/earthgore is a bad idea compared to spellpowercure/powerful assault/spaulder. I had this happen recently where a tank clearly wearing ebon quit a group that was having low dps troubles (even though I was on my hybrid dps/healer) and the new tank actually had buff/debuff sets and it was a major difference. Got through the rest of the dungeon fine.

BananaBender

45K DPS

coop500 wrote: »

@ssewallb14_ESO Yes I've noticed it's quite all over the place, and rather demoralizing.

I stopped playing ESO for awhile because everyone was like 'XYZ DPS is so easy! How can you not do it? Are you stupid?' comments everywhere while I was trying my hardest, reading guides, changing gear, farming gear, practicing rotations and stuff, and couldn't get even half of what so many people claim is so easy most of the time. OR when I was finally getting close, ZOS nerf hammer came down and I was back to square one.

This thread made me realize something about my brain is just better suited for healing or tanking. I don't know why, I've done some crazy hard content as support roles just fine, but as soon as I try DPS, I just cannot reach the numbers that people claim are so easy.

We all have to start somewhere.

Your damage varies greatly depending on the tank and the healer. If they are on selfish or non buffing sets and don't have the necessary debuffs covered, your dps is going to be much much lower no matter how well you play. That's one reason why the answers here have been varying so greatly. If you take away all the buffs from the supports the 45k quickly drops to the 25k range. That's why dps is commonly measured at the trial dummy where the only variable is you. The numbers in this poll mean very little if you don't know the group composition.

Soarora

30K DPS

coop500 wrote: »

@ssewallb14_ESO Yes I've noticed it's quite all over the place, and rather demoralizing.

I stopped playing ESO for awhile because everyone was like 'XYZ DPS is so easy! How can you not do it? Are you stupid?' comments everywhere while I was trying my hardest, reading guides, changing gear, farming gear, practicing rotations and stuff, and couldn't get even half of what so many people claim is so easy most of the time. OR when I was finally getting close, ZOS nerf hammer came down and I was back to square one.

This thread made me realize something about my brain is just better suited for healing or tanking. I don't know why, I've done some crazy hard content as support roles just fine, but as soon as I try DPS, I just cannot reach the numbers that people claim are so easy.

If it makes you feel any better, I know more support mains who struggle as a DPS than support mains who DPS well. Some people just are better at being a support, myself included. That said, you can still be a good DPS it just might take you longer to figure out than a DPS main. It took me a long time, several patches of parsing on the PTS over and over again, to slowly go from less than 50k dps on the trial dummy to 80k to 100k. DPSing requires a different mindset let alone more math to figure out how to optimize, why I’m comfortable saying I’ll never be as good as a DPS main.

Ezhh

What I'd consider acceptable for clearing a dungeon comfortably, and what I'd consider acceptable for a player who lacks experience at either the DD role or the difficulty level, are different things.

Everyone deserves a chance to learn and to progress into harder content. The only way to do this is to go and practice that content. The price of that in turn is that if you get four people who queued for a random and both DDs are in the "low damage" category, then you might find it rough to clear, especially if it's a more difficult DLC dungeon. (The same is also true if you get two very inexperienced supports who die a lot or a tank that struggles to hold taunt and so on.)

The important point is that it isn't unacceptable for these people to queue for the dungeon if they are trying to learn and improve, and already advanced through normal dungeons. I'd say the only time it's "unacceptable" would be if the player has zero interest in trying and is just looking to be carried for rewards.

On the other hand, if group dps is very low and the dungeon is becoming a huge struggle, I also consider it acceptable for supports to leave if they choose to. No one is obligated to stick around if a clear might not even be possible.

Necrotech_Master

25K DPS

im assuming these numbers would be on the 6 mil dummy, which is compareable to a vet dungeon boss

i think 20-30k is probably a good range a dps should aim for, if your going for clear, non HM vet dungeons

10-15k is too low, most of my tank characters can get near that range and if your in this range as a dps then you need to practice and fine tune your rotation a lot more, usually that kind of dps is provided by light weaving 1 skill + gear procs

a basic HA build can usually get you into the 30-40k dps range

Varana

25K DPS

I think much of the confusion and ... less than satisfactory answers at the start of the thread were also due to the fact that barely anyone measures DPS this way these days. I know how much I can do on the trial dummy, but I would need to check logs if I wanted to find out what I'm doing in a random group (and I don't usually log pugs...)

Then it depends on the boss a lot, plus on the rest of the group, as has been pointed out, esp. in DLC dungeons with more mechanics and incoming damage (so you can't just stand in red and beam).

And that's the third one - the difference between dungeons from the base game (plus a few early DLCs) and more recent DLCs is ... rather noticeable. You can get away with much lower numbers in base game dungeons than in new DLC ones which often have mechanics that function as a soft DPS test ("soft" as in "you can technically continue doing little damage as long as you like, but avoiding mistakes and not getting overwhelmed becomes a challenge").

So I suspect at least a few people did try to answer the question as best as they could but found it too vague or broad to provide the number you were looking for.

Oh, and I agree with the 20-30k ballpark on an actual boss that doesn't have too many mechanics. More is definitely better, but that should get you through most of them.

Artim_X

30K DPS

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I don't mean for this comment to be rude, but how are people managing to do less than 50k DPS? I main healer/support characters, so I have very little practice on my 3 DPS characters that I do have available for me to play. Even then, though, once I got my sets together - which weren't BiS sets to begin with - and without knowing or practicing my rotation, those characters still parsed above 60k DPS on the trial dummy (and usually over 70k).

If your low CP, then that is one thing because you won't have as many slottable perks to slot up, but if you are over 1500 CP and have bad trait armor, 50k DPS should still be doable even without a whole lot of practice.

As for the question of what is acceptable for vet dungeons? I think there is a dividing line.

Base game vet dungeons: Can be finished with 4 tanks if you ask me, but lets just put a number out there of 20k DPS.

DLC vet dungeons: Probably need somewhere around 50k dps (depending on quality of tank/healer), although there are even some DLC dungeons that are on the easier side of the spectrum, with Graven Deep probably being on the most difficult DLC dungeon IMO.

The poll indicates vet dungeon boss so solo parse on a 3 million or 6 million dummy. Doing around 30k on that tends to result in 50k+ on the trial dummy.

katanagirl1

coop500 wrote: »

@ssewallb14_ESO Yes I've noticed it's quite all over the place, and rather demoralizing.

I stopped playing ESO for awhile because everyone was like 'XYZ DPS is so easy! How can you not do it? Are you stupid?' comments everywhere while I was trying my hardest, reading guides, changing gear, farming gear, practicing rotations and stuff, and couldn't get even half of what so many people claim is so easy most of the time. OR when I was finally getting close, ZOS nerf hammer came down and I was back to square one.

This thread made me realize something about my brain is just better suited for healing or tanking. I don't know why, I've done some crazy hard content as support roles just fine, but as soon as I try DPS, I just cannot reach the numbers that people claim are so easy.

Something that no one is talking about, because most think it’s stupidly easy, is light attack weaving. That is why I struggled with dps for so long. I eventually got better with it, but I’m old and playing like that is bad for my hands. I can’t even do heavy attack sorcerer anymore. I play arcanist now.

They tell you to do a light attack between all of your skills in the rotation but you have to do it at just the right time or you lose a lot of dps. Maybe it’s easier on PC but on console there is nothing to help you.

Lumsdenml

30K DPS

A lot of people think that you need way higher numbers than you actually do to complete vet dungeons. 60k +??? No way it's that necessary...

MidniteOwl1913

katanagirl1 wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

@ssewallb14_ESO Yes I've noticed it's quite all over the place, and rather demoralizing.

I stopped playing ESO for awhile because everyone was like 'XYZ DPS is so easy! How can you not do it? Are you stupid?' comments everywhere while I was trying my hardest, reading guides, changing gear, farming gear, practicing rotations and stuff, and couldn't get even half of what so many people claim is so easy most of the time. OR when I was finally getting close, ZOS nerf hammer came down and I was back to square one.

This thread made me realize something about my brain is just better suited for healing or tanking. I don't know why, I've done some crazy hard content as support roles just fine, but as soon as I try DPS, I just cannot reach the numbers that people claim are so easy.

Something that no one is talking about, because most think it’s stupidly easy, is light attack weaving. That is why I struggled with dps for so long. I eventually got better with it, but I’m old and playing like that is bad for my hands. I can’t even do heavy attack sorcerer anymore. I play arcanist now.

They tell you to do a light attack between all of your skills in the rotation but you have to do it at just the right time or you lose a lot of dps. Maybe it’s easier on PC but on console there is nothing to help you.

For me personally I can't imagine anything more boring than the pew-plink-pew-plink-pew of light attack skill rotation. Fortunately for me I really like playing a healer whose rotation is more flexible. Playing a NB healer is a lot of fun. They are so versatile!

Sorry for your hands, I too am old but so far it's mostly my knees that give me problems. Stairs are a challenge...

JinKC98

55K DPS

I agree with the understanding-mechanics-is-more-important sentiment, but having too low of DPS, the DD might risk being called "fake DPS", typically by the tank, at least in my experience. Personally 55k is my threshold for good DPS. But yea if someone joins with 30k to 50k DPS, but with good grasp of mechanic, should be fine too.

Bradyfjord

In my experience, pugwise, it's more important to know mechanics than what someone parses on a dummy target. That said, 30k is a benchmark I hope for.

katanagirl1

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

@ssewallb14_ESO Yes I've noticed it's quite all over the place, and rather demoralizing.

I stopped playing ESO for awhile because everyone was like 'XYZ DPS is so easy! How can you not do it? Are you stupid?' comments everywhere while I was trying my hardest, reading guides, changing gear, farming gear, practicing rotations and stuff, and couldn't get even half of what so many people claim is so easy most of the time. OR when I was finally getting close, ZOS nerf hammer came down and I was back to square one.

This thread made me realize something about my brain is just better suited for healing or tanking. I don't know why, I've done some crazy hard content as support roles just fine, but as soon as I try DPS, I just cannot reach the numbers that people claim are so easy.

Something that no one is talking about, because most think it’s stupidly easy, is light attack weaving. That is why I struggled with dps for so long. I eventually got better with it, but I’m old and playing like that is bad for my hands. I can’t even do heavy attack sorcerer anymore. I play arcanist now.

They tell you to do a light attack between all of your skills in the rotation but you have to do it at just the right time or you lose a lot of dps. Maybe it’s easier on PC but on console there is nothing to help you.

For me personally I can't imagine anything more boring than the pew-plink-pew-plink-pew of light attack skill rotation. Fortunately for me I really like playing a healer whose rotation is more flexible. Playing a NB healer is a lot of fun. They are so versatile!

Sorry for your hands, I too am old but so far it's mostly my knees that give me problems. Stairs are a challenge...

Yeah, I am lucky my knees are fine but I just can’t completely give up playing and I try to do what I can but probably do too much, lol

Ishtarknows

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

4 years ago it was 15-20k dps was considered acceptable for a Vet dungeon DPS role. With power creep, it's now ~25k. You don't need 45k+ dps from each DPS player to clear Vet dungeons. You can absolutely do them with 25k each.

4 years ago the parse dummy was a 3 mill or 6 mill skeleton which had only the buffs/debuffs you could bring yourself. 25k on that dummy was decent. 25k on the trial dummy with all the buffs (many more than you can fit in a dungeon group of 4) is worth way less than that.

old_scopie1945

katanagirl1 wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

@ssewallb14_ESO Yes I've noticed it's quite all over the place, and rather demoralizing.

I stopped playing ESO for awhile because everyone was like 'XYZ DPS is so easy! How can you not do it? Are you stupid?' comments everywhere while I was trying my hardest, reading guides, changing gear, farming gear, practicing rotations and stuff, and couldn't get even half of what so many people claim is so easy most of the time. OR when I was finally getting close, ZOS nerf hammer came down and I was back to square one.

This thread made me realize something about my brain is just better suited for healing or tanking. I don't know why, I've done some crazy hard content as support roles just fine, but as soon as I try DPS, I just cannot reach the numbers that people claim are so easy.

Something that no one is talking about, because most think it’s stupidly easy, is light attack weaving. That is why I struggled with dps for so long. I eventually got better with it, but I’m old and playing like that is bad for my hands. I can’t even do heavy attack sorcerer anymore. I play arcanist now.

They tell you to do a light attack between all of your skills in the rotation but you have to do it at just the right time or you lose a lot of dps. Maybe it’s easier on PC but on console there is nothing to help you.

I know where you are coming from friend, I now play with support strappings on both hands on PC. But my noticeable problem is my slower reactions. In DLC dungeons, even when I know the mechanics, my reactions are too slow to deal with them fast enough. Getting old is a bummer, but it is better than the alternative.

madman65

thegreeneso wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Didn't vote.....

Dead DD's do no damage, in vet DLC's mechanics knowledge plays a huge part very often!

To be fair, damage dealers who deal low damage are unlikely to be skilled players.

I agree, DD`s need to know the mechanics. I had ran Scrivner`s Hall`s on normal as a tank but the DD`s had no Idea about the mechanics, we struggled on normal which is embarrassing for me as a vet running tank. New comers need to take the time and get info on DLC dungeons.

katanagirl1

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

@ssewallb14_ESO Yes I've noticed it's quite all over the place, and rather demoralizing.

I stopped playing ESO for awhile because everyone was like 'XYZ DPS is so easy! How can you not do it? Are you stupid?' comments everywhere while I was trying my hardest, reading guides, changing gear, farming gear, practicing rotations and stuff, and couldn't get even half of what so many people claim is so easy most of the time. OR when I was finally getting close, ZOS nerf hammer came down and I was back to square one.

This thread made me realize something about my brain is just better suited for healing or tanking. I don't know why, I've done some crazy hard content as support roles just fine, but as soon as I try DPS, I just cannot reach the numbers that people claim are so easy.

Something that no one is talking about, because most think it’s stupidly easy, is light attack weaving. That is why I struggled with dps for so long. I eventually got better with it, but I’m old and playing like that is bad for my hands. I can’t even do heavy attack sorcerer anymore. I play arcanist now.

They tell you to do a light attack between all of your skills in the rotation but you have to do it at just the right time or you lose a lot of dps. Maybe it’s easier on PC but on console there is nothing to help you.

I know where you are coming from friend, I now play with support strappings on both hands on PC. But my noticeable problem is my slower reactions. In DLC dungeons, even when I know the mechanics, my reactions are too slow to deal with them fast enough. Getting old is a bummer, but it is better than the alternative.

I do have to wrap up one hand, but I think my reflexes are okay for now. Like you say, it’s probably just a matter of time, lol.
Game on, buddy.

Nissowolf

30K DPS

in my opinion, 30k is sufficient to clear all vet dungeon, even in Hard mode. For Vet DLC, it will be a bit higher, but as everyone stated, the main thing, after DPS, is to know the mechs to not die stupidly.

peacenote

25K DPS

I think even the definition of "acceptable" in this context might be open for debate.

My primary role is a healer, so as a healer, I picked an average number where, if I was put in a random and both DPS were lower than that number, I wouldn't be super optimistic that we'd clear if the dungeon has any kind of DPS check or any tricky mechanics where you have to do them many more times if the group damage is low (thus greatly reducing the change that you'll muster your way through and get lucky). It's also the line where I might start saying "ok, I only have one more try" as support if we've wiped a few times at a boss, even after a mechanics explanation.

To me personally, "acceptable" does have the connotation of being the lowest you can be and still be functional, so I'm veering to the low side here. if you mean "acceptable" to be, more, like "fairly decent," I'd probably vote 45K.

Navaac223

30K DPS

30k in content is enough I think. Just know that the answers to this thread depend on the role you play the most. If you're a DD, you are not affected by low dps because you can carry the run. If you're a tank/healer and encounter low dps DDs in a dungeon, you FEEL it.

I remember a few times where I queued as a tank and watched both DDs spamming light attacks. During a dungeon run like this, you can only try to stack as well as possible. I had a banished cells II run take 1h once.

I get that not everyone can pull 30k on content, sure, but if you can't get decent enough dps, you can always queue for a normal dungeon

Edit : I've seen some people say that a DD who knows the mechs is better than one who can get big numbers. After 2k hours of playing eso, I have yet to see an actual example of someone who has bad dps but knows the mechanics. This is simply because if you don't have the time to improve your dps, you don't have the time to learn the mechs.

Amottica

The answer is all over the place because everyone has their own opinion of what is acceptable. That is all it is: an opinion.

I run only with guildies because I got tired of GF groups that lacked the minimum DPS required to clear a dungeon. It is the advice I give anyone who has grown tired of how random such random GF groups can be.

Blood_again

20K DPS

For classic 2dd group:
20-25k real dynamic dps is enough for most of DLC vets.
15k is enough for any non-DLC HM.
(Real is what combat metrics will show you on boss after the battle. Don't confuse it with trial or 6m dummy score please)

For 3dd group low limit is less, but you know, player who don't do 15k as dd should rather practice their skill in a classic group.

Zodiarkslayer

30K DPS

I am interpreting the numbers provided as the minimum to clear without speed no death or trifecta achievement. Because you need a lot more than that for achievements.

The truth is that with all the mechanics DPS per se isn't all that important. DPS is about pumping as much damage into as tight a window as possible. I think the ability to recognize and utilize these windows of opportunity is the most important ability for vet Dungeons.

After that it is the ability to communicate with each other. Its a "Do or Die" thing in vet Dungeons. Quite litterally so.

Classic DPS abilities like weaving, positioning or optimizing one's rotation come after those two.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

60K DPS

I will say that I don't consider "minimum needed to clear" acceptable.

You could clear FG1 vet with a 4-man naked group... But why though?

AvalonRanger

25K DPS

Well, it's time to stop damage amount argument. Recent DLC dungeon and trial have
more "mech" focused game design than just mimicking target dummy practice.

As tank main player...

I don't like too much weak damage DPS than my pure tank, but I more dislike
target dummy simulator 100K DPS player.

And, most of experienced healer player have some damage buff gear or something
for damage supportive skill. So, you don't have to do "damage all" building always,
but should have surviving skill with effective damage work.

Dead DPS is zero damage anyway.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

60K DPS

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Well, it's time to stop damage amount argument. Recent DLC dungeon and trial have
more "mech" focused game design than just mimicking target dummy practice.

As tank main player...

I don't like too much weak damage DPS than my pure tank, but I more dislike
target dummy simulator 100K DPS player.

And, most of experienced healer player have some damage buff gear or something
for damage supportive skill. So, you don't have to do "damage all" building always,
but should have surviving skill with effective damage work.

Dead DPS is zero damage anyway.

TBH the few times I have seen (good) DPS die are:
- learning mechs
- I *** up as tank (or am learning my own mechs)
- not getting healed (not always the healer's fault! As tank I can't tell if they're running away from the healer or whatever usually)
- no health buff food (17k-19k HP is a dangerous way to live in vet dungeons)

coop500

25K DPS

LaintalAy wrote: »

It's discussions like this that remind those players currently in orbit around Jupiter, that it doesn't matter how good your build is, or how well you know the mechanics; you still need a response time of 100ms or less, to be competitive.

Even with a training dummy, it's difficult to arrive at an accurate DPS figure, when your ping hovers in excess of 400ms.

Not really complaining; just noting the reality that exists for some, if not many, players.

Well that sucks lol, my lowest ping rn is 120 and I was wondering if that had a hand in why weaving felt unreliable since returning.