Average Acceptable DPS now for vet dungeons?

coop500

Behold! A poll to see where everyone's numbers are expected to be at, to kinda get an idea of what's expected from a DPS player in the wild.
For those confused, I am talking single target DPS against a vet dungeon boss.
Keep in mind, I am talking average random players, not a pre-formed group in a guild or whatnot. But what would be numbers that you'd consider acceptable?
I am just kinda gonna vote randomly just so I can see the results.

LunaFlora

45K DPS

For me it's more important for damage dealers to know mechanics than having high dps.
if you're dead you have 0 dps.

so i just selected the middle of the poll options as that's probably average.

colossalvoids

Boss/dummy and what dummy? Dlc or not, that's kinda matters in evaluation.

Personally can't care less and hope that the person will at least learn some mechanics, but old 20-25k on a 6 mil skelly would usually do.

coop500

25K DPS

@colossalvoids.
The title says Vet Dungeons. So.... bosses in vet dungeons?

colossalvoids

coop500 wrote: »

@colossalvoids.
The title says Vet Dungeons. So.... bosses in vet dungeons?

If the person can do consistent 20k on a static vet non dlc boss that's completely fine I guess, probably would fly for quite a few dlc ones. potentially can be less but that's when you want them to know mechanics better and people knowing them are generally have more dps so that's a gamble.

El_Borracho

I don't even know what these numbers are. Trial dummy? 20mil dummy? 80K/20K?

Doesn't matter. Because whatever it is for a veteran dungeon, it will need to be higher for a vet DLC dungeon. But instead of dummy humping, learn mechanics, because that is what really matters in veteran dungeons.

coop500

25K DPS

@El_Borracho Against a vet dungeon boss. Updated OP to reflect this.

freespirit

Didn't vote.....

Dead DD's do no damage, in vet DLC's mechanics knowledge plays a huge part very often!

joseayalac

50K DPS

Damage must be measured in a parse against a target dummy so that the numbers mean anything.

Your DPS against a boss will vary a lot depending on some factors:

• Buffs from group members
• Debuffs on boss from group members
• All bosses behave differently, they move around or have immunity phases
• Etc.

Group members play a significant role, since healers and tanks do things that help damage dealer's dps.

Also you didn't mention a boss in particular, making it very hard to compare DPS per se.

A target dummy streamlines all this stuff so that you can compare apples with apples and get a good idea of where your DPS is.

tsaescishoeshiner

For non-DLC vet dungeons the needed level is very low--they're almost as easy as normal DLC dungeons.

For vet DLC dungeons, I wouldn't pug it with less than 55k, and even that could lead to experiences that are worse than they could be. But some players perform better in content than vs. a dummy, and vice versa, so a 55k DPS could underperform or do fine. For example, a DPS who parses ~55-60k but has completed vet Vateshran and vet Maelstrom no-death will do pretty great in vet DLC dungeons comparatively. If you can complete those as a DPS, it's a better benchmark for being able to survive while dealing damage in DLC dungeons (though you will need more DPS to do hardmodes consistently).

At 70k, you can begin to clear everything pretty easily. It makes certain mechanics much easier, mistakes less punishing, and wipes less of a slog. HMs can be a headache.

At 90k you can practically solo DPS vet DLC dungeons and a group can skip mechanics that make it a breeze. This is what makes pugs have a "high-five, great group" feeling afterwards. : p

Edit: This is assuming a DPS parse against a trial dummy with parse food (recovery and max resource, no max health), just as a standard point-of-reference. Actual DPS against a boss will vary greatly (dodging mechanics, invulnerability phases, adds, etc) so is hard to compare.

El_Borracho

coop500 wrote: »

@El_Borracho Against a vet dungeon boss. Updated OP to reflect this.

Cool, and appreciate the clarification, but the confusion is the DPS measured by what, a trial dummy, a 20mil dummy, or combat metrics/other add ons. All have different ranges

On a 20mil dummy, 20K DPS was the threshold for veteran trials before the trials dummy. So if you can crank 20K on the 20mil dummy, veteran dungeons are no problem. I think that is the number many add-ons are using now in combat metrics. There is some room for argument, but 20K probably translates to somewhere around 70K on a trial dummy.

With that, I would agree with @tsaescishoeshiner in that breakdown. While mechanics can still be an issue with vet DLC dungeons, the more DPS, the less mechanics cycles you will have to endure. Thinking back to vet Cradle of Shadows when it first came out, getting through that before the hunting phase was unheard of. Now, with a couple of 110+ arcanists, you hardly ever see it

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

60K DPS

NOTE: Numbers are against a Dummy or Tankn'Spank boss with no significant mechs, and I recognize they will be collectively lower than this in mechanically intense fights - where the mechanics should (rightly) be the priority.

I think that with Oakensoul Sorc heavy attack builds being able to crack like 70k-80k DPS (I am told, I usually tank), from a pure DPS mechanics perspective, I expect a player to at least get within 10k of that. The reasons I would accept less is:
- Compromising for theme (we all should be doing this I think. It makes playing the character more fun, and I do it too)
- People not having fully farmed ALL the gear they need to meet or exceed that threshold
- People learning how to play their build
- Miscellaneous reasons (folks having an off day, or chatting with their friends and slightly distracted, whatever).

I voted 60k, assuming they meant dummy parse, in light of these considerations. Obviously MOAR IS BETTER (as a general rule with damage) which is not a rule that applies to tanking, but hey.

One point to add from a tank's perspective is that *DPS IS EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY*. The healer, the tank, and the 2 DPS all contribute to a vet dlc dungeon's clear speed. My view (though it is by no means official) on how they each contribute to DPS is:
1) Tank (the role I have the most experience with) provides enemy debuffs in the following priority order:
- Major Breach
- Minor Vulnerability
- Minor Breach
- Unique armor pen (e.g. arcanist stamina taunt)
- Major Vulnerability
The last is arguably higher, but it's a rather difficult buff to get, and if you have to sacrifice all of the top just to get a sometimes-on major vulnerability, it's not worth it (major breach is about the same damage increase, give or take, for example).

The tank also has the greatest role in "controlling" the fight - ensuring the boss is positioned appropriately for NBs to get their flank bonus or DDs to do the mechanics, or leashing adds into the boss for AOEs, or whathaveyou. You could have two 150k+ DPS, but if you don't taunt, survive, and position the boss in a good, stationary place, it will feel like they're both 30k DPSs.

2) Healer provides friendly buffs:
- Unique damage buffs (Spaulder of Ruin for example)
- Minor Berserk from Combat Prayer
- Vitality of both types
- Sustain for everyone (or as many as possible)
- etc.

3) DPS are responsible for their own overall damage numbers; whether they build for crit or raw damage, or some kind of DOT build, whatever. In Vet dungeons, the tank is providing 8k pen (or so) given the buffs above, but the DPS will need another 8k or so to hit the cap - and it can't overlap with the tank's Major and Minor Breach buffs.

This means that when I'm tanking a dungeon with an acceptable-but-lower-than-I'd-like DPS, that means it could be MY fault and I am just as responsible for pushing that DPS over the line into "awesome" as anyone else in the group is.

Of course, some DPS are just hopeless...

SkaraMinoc

25K DPS

4 years ago it was 15-20k dps was considered acceptable for a Vet dungeon DPS role. With power creep, it's now ~25k. You don't need 45k+ dps from each DPS player to clear Vet dungeons. You can absolutely do them with 25k each.

PeacefulAnarchy

20K DPS

I'm going to take vet dungeons to mean middle of the road dlcs so lets say moongrave fane.
You said pug vet dungeons, so assuming no hardmode, and you said dungeon single target boss damage, so going to assume this means the actual damage done in the given content, not what the player could do in a better group.
I'm going to say acceptable means "should feel ok about queuing for it on vet, if you've done the dungeon on normal enough to understand the mechanics." or "If I were a tank and ended up with two of these dps I would feel ok about continuing and completing the dungeon"

Grundwulf has 5mil health on vet, at 20k from each dps, that would be 45kish group damage which means 2 minutes to bring the boss down. There are mechanics and adds of course, but even at 3-4 minutes to finish the fight that is reasonably doable without the pug group getting too frustrated.

The caveats are important though. If you come in with that dps you have to expect to do all the mechanics, even ones you're used to skipping on normal. You also should understand you will not do hard mode, and if someone in the group clearly knows what's going on you should take advice.

Artim_X

30K DPS

Hitting around 30k on a vet boss without the trial buffs/debuffs is sufficient for vet dlc. Vanilla Vets only need around 25k.

thegreeneso

freespirit wrote: »

Didn't vote.....

Dead DD's do no damage, in vet DLC's mechanics knowledge plays a huge part very often!

To be fair, damage dealers who deal low damage are unlikely to be skilled players.

Orbital78

30K DPS

30-50k in actual combat with not dying and doing mechs should suffice. You'll probably want 40k+ for trying some of the hard modes. A tank that can also heal so that 3 dps is viable makes many encounters melt these days with arcanists.

Runefang

30K DPS

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

4 years ago it was 15-20k dps was considered acceptable for a Vet dungeon DPS role. With power creep, it's now ~25k. You don't need 45k+ dps from each DPS player to clear Vet dungeons. You can absolutely do them with 25k each.

Clearing isn't the only goal, making it a slog is not fun so high dps just makes it quicker and easier.

coop500

25K DPS

The main thing I've learned from this is that A: Nobody's ever happy no matter how I worded this question, and B: I shouldn't bother trying to play vet dungeons with a DPS character.

Soarora

30K DPS

I voted based on my dps/healer hybrid doing 20-25k DPS in content. If I see I'm doing more than 1/3 the damage, then there's a problem with the other players builds. If I'm doing 1/3 the damage, then that's concerning but the dungeon goes fine. I don't recall how much damage my actual DPS do in content.

Orbital78

30K DPS

coop500 wrote: »

The main thing I've learned from this is that A: Nobody's ever happy no matter how I worded this question, and B: I shouldn't bother trying to play vet dungeons with a DPS character.

A heavy attack builds should get you to 30k+, an even easier Arcanist should get you to 30-40+ with velothi. The jump from normal to vets is fairly big. Group with friends and learn from them.

There is a big difference between old and new vets too. Some base game vet and even hard modes are quite soloable.

Nharimlur_Finor

It's discussions like this that remind those players currently in orbit around Jupiter, that it doesn't matter how good your build is, or how well you know the mechanics; you still need a response time of 100ms or less, to be competitive.

Even with a training dummy, it's difficult to arrive at an accurate DPS figure, when your ping hovers in excess of 400ms.

Not really complaining; just noting the reality that exists for some, if not many, players.

MorganaLaVey

20K DPS

When i was in a raid guild it was very normal for us to give new 160cp players a quick rundown of the basics, then take them in to a vDLC for the helmet. Often we had 30-40k group dps and still cleared the dungeon in 40 min. Low DPS is not much of a problem when mechanics are played correctly. What makes dungeons a slog is: 1. dead players being useless, 2. constant wipes, 3. bad AOE on trash.

thegreeneso wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Didn't vote.....

Dead DD's do no damage, in vet DLC's mechanics knowledge plays a huge part very often!

To be fair, damage dealers who deal low damage are unlikely to be skilled players.

You dont need skill for ESO mechanics, its allways the same: "when X walk from A to B and (sometimes) do Y (prees synergy/ kill something)"

The reason why many low dps are bad at mechanics is because they dont care.
They dont care about DPS.
They dont care about mechanics.
Therefore they are bad at both.

Has nothing to do with skill

kargen27

thegreeneso wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Didn't vote.....

Dead DD's do no damage, in vet DLC's mechanics knowledge plays a huge part very often!

To be fair, damage dealers who deal low damage are unlikely to be skilled players.

on the other side of that high to mid range damage dealers may also be unskilled. Doing vet pledges last night we picked up a random for our 2nd DPS. One of the dungeons our 2nd DPS did decent damage when alive but had a habit of standing behind the tank and dying often.
Also maybe three years ago I would join a guild group when they were short on guild members doing trials. The guild was mostly retired people and a couple of them had arthritis and other ailments that prevented them from really going crazy with the button mashing.
It was sometimes slow going but without knowing mechanics we would never have made it through. No way that group could burn through and skip mechanics.

Dax_Draconis

45K DPS

Since it is difficult and most frustrating to get through a clean rotation with the newer DLC bosses, I say knowledge of mechanics are more important than total damage output.

alpha_synuclein

30K DPS

coop500 wrote: »

The main thing I've learned from this is that A: Nobody's ever happy no matter how I worded this question, and B: I shouldn't bother trying to play vet dungeons with a DPS character.

Ad A. ESO does not have an universal damage measurement method, so it will always be about what players are agree on. And different groups of players agree on different things, so with any damage numbers related question some specification is unavoidable.

Ad B. When you're starting you will meet a lot of players that are stronger than you. But if a person next to you is doing 100k damage it does not mean that this is the number required to clear. And it does not mean that you don't belong in the content you're trying to do. Numbers comparison aside, the question you need to ask is this: if I had 3 others team members that perform on my level, would we be able to clear? (Btw, that includes supports as well). The answer is not obvious and it will require some experience to get the feeling of what is essential and what is extra. So I would say keep trying. And if you feel your damage is really too low, dummy is your friend

lardvader

1 deeps is all you need

colossalvoids

coop500 wrote: »

The main thing I've learned from this is that A: Nobody's ever happy no matter how I worded this question, and B: I shouldn't bother trying to play vet dungeons with a DPS character.

You actually should as otherwise you won't progress much in that department. You shouldn't really concern yourself with what other players want or prefer but dive in and see how it goes, if something or someone is bothering you too much you can always leave or go into offline mode at that.

No one started as a good dps, my first vet dungeon was a mistake queue that ended up in the dlc one, and at that time it was insanely hard one, not that there were any other dungeon packs yet to compare but it was not a place for me but team endured. Now I'm the person who endure if new player joins and help out if possible, that's the circle of life so to say.

Tldr: no dummy will help you enough if you don't simultaneously do dungeons of your preferred difficulty. Experience is the best teacher here.

Hapexamendios

Have a decent rotation, don't stand in stupid, rez when necessary and hit it until it's dead. That's my wishlist

mdjessup4906

60K DPS

65k on the iron atro minimum for vet trials is a common number, so 60k for dungeons sounds about right. Probably can get away with a bit less depending on the dungeon. I'd want at least 80k for some of the hms though.

BXR_Lonestar

50K DPS

I don't mean for this comment to be rude, but how are people managing to do less than 50k DPS? I main healer/support characters, so I have very little practice on my 3 DPS characters that I do have available for me to play. Even then, though, once I got my sets together - which weren't BiS sets to begin with - and without knowing or practicing my rotation, those characters still parsed above 60k DPS on the trial dummy (and usually over 70k).

If your low CP, then that is one thing because you won't have as many slottable perks to slot up, but if you are over 1500 CP and have bad trait armor, 50k DPS should still be doable even without a whole lot of practice.

As for the question of what is acceptable for vet dungeons? I think there is a dividing line.

Base game vet dungeons: Can be finished with 4 tanks if you ask me, but lets just put a number out there of 20k DPS.

DLC vet dungeons: Probably need somewhere around 50k dps (depending on quality of tank/healer), although there are even some DLC dungeons that are on the easier side of the spectrum, with Graven Deep probably being on the most difficult DLC dungeon IMO.