RNG is not welcome anymore.

Amottica

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Keep RNG but... make it so every time a chest is opened or a boss defeated or whatever the source for the lead or item is, the RNG percentage increases.

So if there is a 10% chance to get said item from a delve boss for example, increase that to 15% the next time the boss is encountered, and so on. This will guarantee that the player isn't spending a year and still never getting the item.

They curated dungeon drops so why not this, too?

That would be a great idea if it were not a lot of info the servers would need to keep track of and server load is already an issue. That would be the main reason Zenimax would not implement it.

I honestly didn't think of that. I am having lead issues with Betnikh for the war drum and ayleid well. Spent a long time just running around that island with only getting the lead for the malacath band within about 80 enemies which is reasonable. Now after 300 to 500 enemies neither one of the furniture items are dropping and I'm also grabbing every node to try to get the well too. Nothing. I honestly think they accidently added a period in front of those lead drop rates (as an example instead of 10% it is .10%....kind of a big difference there). I suggested a similar thing but I can see how that could be an issue if it causes data inefficiency.

Still, considering we don't know how the drop rates operate for leads this was a reasonable conclusion. It may be better to increase the rates based on the difficulty of the lead itself. 80% for green 70% for blue (those 2 being mostly treasure map ones where the treasure maps are still not stackable......). 40% for purple. 20% for master level gold (mythic items mostly). 10% for ultimate level difficulty (some furniture items). I think these rates would fair and not next to impossible however I will reiterate from the post in the topic I made. We really do not know how the lead drop rates function so we can only really speculate how it works and speculate how to improve it.

Server load is irrelevant. Do you think scribing didn't impact "load"?

They have to work on the core issues, not ignore making the game better for such a claim.

Server load is only an issue when it becomes a problem with the game's performance. Oh, wait!

There are notably better ways to address the issue than having the server track progress on every lead for every account. That would be a huge database on its own. Seriously, if the odds are 1:50, does someone want to keep those odds and face having to attempt some leads 50 times? Just seems like a bad idea overall.

Adjusting the chance, the dice roll, so the odds are more favorable is not only easier to implement but seems to be a lot better for us players.

The server has to do many things. You can't add ANYTHING without increasing data and code on the server. Are you really insisting that the game can track all the other stuff it tracks, but just knowing if we have something and tracking progress is intolerable?

Ignoring this too much will kill the game. Perhaps not exactly this, but they are all most straws, or even logs, added to the back of the camel. That back will eventually break.

and where did I say they could never add anything to the game. I fail to see the point here as I pointed out a much better approach for both game design and benefit to the player.

Lets us focus on that since that is the purpose of this thread.

Amottica

Pelanora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Keep RNG but... make it so every time a chest is opened or a boss defeated or whatever the source for the lead or item is, the RNG percentage increases.

So if there is a 10% chance to get said item from a delve boss for example, increase that to 15% the next time the boss is encountered, and so on. This will guarantee that the player isn't spending a year and still never getting the item.

They curated dungeon drops so why not this, too?

That would be a great idea if it were not a lot of info the servers would need to keep track of and server load is already an issue. That would be the main reason Zenimax would not implement it.

It's not about server load, it's about changing what the chest 'knows', from random generation where it doesn't need to 'know' what's generated, or what has been, or what needs to be, to having to generate something specific. The info is already in the server, it's not at the point of collection- the chest, (or other form of drop) Zos has to recode how the chests/drops work. That's all.

They explained this in a video about the IA chests.

What I replied was not about what the chest knows. The comment I replied to was about a means to cap how many attempts we had to make to get a lead which would mean that leads.

But thank you for sharing.

CGPsaint

KekwLord3000 wrote: »

It's an MMO the whole idea is to grind for gear/collectibles fighting the RNG.
If you want something more casual that you can just login play without much investment go play shooter games.
RNG was made so games like MMO's keep players doing the same activities for years and not leaving after a few months.

My main character is sitting on 60K achievement points in-game, all recipes learned, all motif chapters learned, and soon to be all furnishing plans learned (still missing a few of the newest Colovian plans). I've completed most of what the game has to offer short of trial perfectas, and have almost completed the entire antiquities codex. I can say with a high degree of certainty that the grind for some items and leads in this game is beyond ridiculous even for an MMO. Why are some leads (looking at you gold lead in Coldharbour) dropping like candy with just about zero effort, and others (looking at you DDF gold lead in DSA) may or may not drop even after 100+ runs? I burned hundreds of Deadlands maps just to get the Ancient Daedric Daggers lead, and hundreds of Apocrypha maps only to still be 5 leads short of completing the codex for the Apocryphal Well furnishing. Asking me to grind for hundreds of hours for no reason and a paltry reward isn't going to convince me to spent more time in ESO, it just makes me realize that my time is better spent, and more enjoyment will be had playing other, better games.

Drammanoth

In regards to RNG... wouldn't it help if we had some perks in the Craft tree OR a skill line titled eg. Adventurer, where we increase our chances of getting something while being less and less on the mercy of RNGsus...

Thoriorz

malistorr wrote: »

Ran another few rounds of IA last night. I've earned about 100k of the IA currency and have about half the gear from there (all classes sets). I still haven't had a single lead for the torc drop which is the ONLY reason why I would run the uber-boring IA in the first place.

I don't understand the thought process of the people deciding the drop rate for this item. Get players to want to play your game through actually good and entertaining content, not through hiding a single item behind a grind-wall that forces people to do the same horribly boring and repetitive content over and over again for weeks!

WTH

I have dug this Mythic 1x and I'm working on the second one, it took me about 1,5 months of once a day daily quest and arc 2.
The really bad thing and especially for me quite incomprehensible is that you can only get leads from "mini game" chests or at the end of each arc (not counting the specific ones from Marauders).

For me, leads in IA should either drop from every chest or if not from every chest then at least increase the chance to drop them, it often happens that I don't even have leads from 10 chests and when they don't drop from every chest so farm leads in IA is a total pain (especially when you want to have the codex in antiques fulfilled).

Gabriel_H

RNG has been the bane of many games for many years. I am a firm believer in having a capped RNG, by which I mean that at some point the drop chance of something becomes 100%.

I am currently farming a lead from Timbershade WB in Galen. I'm now in excess of 50 kills (most of them solo as it is not a popular destination these days). I have been doing this in batches of 10, so that's nearly an hour of waiting.

A capped RNG still gives the illusion of chance, while also ensuring that infinite time wasting is dealt with.

ChaoticWings3

Drammanoth wrote: »

In regards to RNG... wouldn't it help if we had some perks in the Craft tree OR a skill line titled eg. Adventurer, where we increase our chances of getting something while being less and less on the mercy of RNGsus...

Its a thought but I think it needs to be adjusted as a whole anyway since having a passive on a skill is kind of putting a band aid on the issue.

For example, if they added it as a response to the discussion for the unreasonable rng and it improved the chances by double of what they are now. However, if the system is not looked at as a whole double could mean 15% to 30% or 10% to 20% or 2% to 4% or 0.1% to 0.2%.

I've said it before in my other posts but since we don't really know how the system operates I would rather have a fresh look on the entire system as a whole rather than an aspect that would somewhat reduce the symptoms.

Gabriel_H

Ph1p wrote: »

Instead of pure RNG, I would prefer stuff to be awarded for a set amount of effort. For example, complete a zone daily 30 times for the achievement or clear the first arc in IA 50 times to get a new mount. The new lead in Halls of Fabrication follows this logic, since it's a guaranteed drop.

It isn't guaranteed as such.

The Gold Road leads have somewhere around 75 - 100% drop chance, depending on the lead, for the 1st lead only. As there are typically 3 lore entries for a lot of antiquity leads, the 2nd and 3rd leads are at the same drop chance as older leads tend to be - annoyingly it shows ZOS is capable of having a variable RNG.

They could do the same in reverse, giving a 100% drop chance after x number of attempts.

MidniteOwl1913

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Instead of pure RNG, I would prefer stuff to be awarded for a set amount of effort. For example, complete a zone daily 30 times for the achievement or clear the first arc in IA 50 times to get a new mount. The new lead in Halls of Fabrication follows this logic, since it's a guaranteed drop.

It isn't guaranteed as such.

The Gold Road leads have somewhere around 75 - 100% drop chance, depending on the lead, for the 1st lead only. As there are typically 3 lore entries for a lot of antiquity leads, the 2nd and 3rd leads are at the same drop chance as older leads tend to be - annoyingly it shows ZOS is capable of having a variable RNG.

They could do the same in reverse, giving a 100% drop chance after x number of attempts.

WHile it's a good idea there is a big difference between keeping track of attempts and keeping track of things. The data that you already have something is saved right now. Trivial to look that up and adjust the odds. Keeping track per player of attempts to accomplish a task would require code and more server space to store the data.

Gabriel_H

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

WHile it's a good idea there is a big difference between keeping track of attempts and keeping track of things. The data that you already have something is saved right now. Trivial to look that up and adjust the odds. Keeping track per player of attempts to accomplish a task would require code and more server space to store the data.

Yes/No.

While it would require code - that code is already implemented as shown by the GR antiquities.
While it would require storage space - that space is already implemented as shown by the GR antiquities.

All that would be different is the implementation. Such as:

At present it is something like - [Code] Does the player have this lead? [Stored Data] Yes or No. [Code] If "No" then drop rate is 100% else drop rate is 5%.

Implementing my system would be: - [Code] How many containers has this player looted? [Stored Data] x Number. [Code] If number exceeds 20 then drop rate is 100% else drop rate is 5%.

Same resources used, same code checks, different outcome.

Edit: I'd point out that there are addons that track whether or not you have a style page, or recipe, or lead etc. They don't store what you have, they pull that data from the server - i.e. the stored data already exists.

MidniteOwl1913

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

WHile it's a good idea there is a big difference between keeping track of attempts and keeping track of things. The data that you already have something is saved right now. Trivial to look that up and adjust the odds. Keeping track per player of attempts to accomplish a task would require code and more server space to store the data.

Yes/No.

While it would require code - that code is already implemented as shown by the GR antiquities.
While it would require storage space - that space is already implemented as shown by the GR antiquities.

All that would be different is the implementation. Such as:

At present it is something like - [Code] Does the player have this lead? [Stored Data] Yes or No. [Code] If "No" then drop rate is 100% else drop rate is 5%.

Implementing my system would be: - [Code] How many containers has this player looted? [Stored Data] x Number. [Code] If number exceeds 20 then drop rate is 100% else drop rate is 5%.

Same resources used, same code checks, different outcome.

If leads are all you are talking about maybe. But RNG is everywhere. What about the style pages like the anniversary ones? Pretty sure the game doesn't store how many dolmens I have run.

Gabriel_H

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If leads are all you are talking about maybe. But RNG is everywhere. What about the style pages like the anniversary ones? Pretty sure the game doesn't store how many dolmens I have run.

Journal -> Achievements -> Exploration -> Dark Anchors

If you want more specificity there are achievements that track how many dolmen final pinions you have interacted with.

Edit: Let me also add that curated gear drops use a similar system to the one I am suggesting.

ChaoticWings3

Gabriel_H wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

WHile it's a good idea there is a big difference between keeping track of attempts and keeping track of things. The data that you already have something is saved right now. Trivial to look that up and adjust the odds. Keeping track per player of attempts to accomplish a task would require code and more server space to store the data.

Yes/No.

While it would require code - that code is already implemented as shown by the GR antiquities.
While it would require storage space - that space is already implemented as shown by the GR antiquities.

All that would be different is the implementation. Such as:

At present it is something like - [Code] Does the player have this lead? [Stored Data] Yes or No. [Code] If "No" then drop rate is 100% else drop rate is 5%.

Implementing my system would be: - [Code] How many containers has this player looted? [Stored Data] x Number. [Code] If number exceeds 20 then drop rate is 100% else drop rate is 5%.

Same resources used, same code checks, different outcome.

Edit: I'd point out that there are addons that track whether or not you have a style page, or recipe, or lead etc. They don't store what you have, they pull that data from the server - i.e. the stored data already exists.

I really do like this idea and it seems rather plausible in implementation. Hopefully we can get something like this.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If leads are all you are talking about maybe. But RNG is everywhere. What about the style pages like the anniversary ones? Pretty sure the game doesn't store how many dolmens I have run.

I think style pages can be taken into an account with a similar formula. For example, with the dungeon mask runs, if there is a 5% chance of it dropping, and it fails to drop after x amount of times the next drop would be guaranteed. The antiquity system and style pages work very similarly so implementation wouldn't be too hard for a system like that to occur. Also that anniversary event rng was some of the worse I have ever seen from the game and I hope we never have anything like that occur again.

Gabriel_H

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

I think style pages can be taken into an account with a similar formula. For example, with the dungeon mask runs, if there is a 5% chance of it dropping, and it fails to drop after x amount of times the next drop would be guaranteed. The antiquity system and style pages work very similarly so implementation wouldn't be too hard for a system like that to occur. Also that anniversary event rng was some of the worse I have ever seen from the game and I hope we never have anything like that occur again.

Just to point out that style pages already have a drop chance check. 2.5% base, or 5% if you have the HM achievement.

So: Does player have Hardmode achievement? If yes, then 5% else 2.5% - change to - How many kills since last drop? If >25 then 100% and set kill count to 0, else 2.5% and +1 to kill count.

Malyore

AlnilamE wrote: »

I'm not sure if this applies to everything you are looking for, but if it's in a zone or dungeon, how about chances increase with the % of the sticker book you have completed, with a guaranteed drop at 100% completion, and then when you have all the codex entries (in the case of leads), it reverts back to normal?

I think this is an interesting idea. I think the calculations for drop chance could pull from multiple sources. Along with the base drop chance, the stickerbook affecting drop chance seems sound. And on top of that, perhaps each unsuccessful drop will further increase the chance of dropping. Just something to feel more fun while still earned.

Pelanora

Amottica wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Keep RNG but... make it so every time a chest is opened or a boss defeated or whatever the source for the lead or item is, the RNG percentage increases.

So if there is a 10% chance to get said item from a delve boss for example, increase that to 15% the next time the boss is encountered, and so on. This will guarantee that the player isn't spending a year and still never getting the item.

They curated dungeon drops so why not this, too?

That would be a great idea if it were not a lot of info the servers would need to keep track of and server load is already an issue. That would be the main reason Zenimax would not implement it.

It's not about server load, it's about changing what the chest 'knows', from random generation where it doesn't need to 'know' what's generated, or what has been, or what needs to be, to having to generate something specific. The info is already in the server, it's not at the point of collection- the chest, (or other form of drop) Zos has to recode how the chests/drops work. That's all.

They explained this in a video about the IA chests.

What I replied was not about what the chest knows. The comment I replied to was about a means to cap how many attempts we had to make to get a lead which would mean that leads.

But thank you for sharing.

"That would be a great idea if it were not a lot of info the servers would need to keep track of and server load is already an issue."

Not the issue, stopping curated drops. As explained above.

"But thank you for sharing."

There's no need for that.

Gabriel_H

Amottica wrote: »

Server load is only an issue when it becomes a problem with the game's performance. Oh, wait!

There are notably better ways to address the issue than having the server track progress on every lead for every account. That would be a huge database on its own. Seriously, if the odds are 1:50, does someone want to keep those odds and face having to attempt some leads 50 times? Just seems like a bad idea overall.

They already implemented it for Gold Road leads. And also that isn't how server load works. Having a massive database per player - there already is one - that's how achievements work.

Amottica

Pelanora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Keep RNG but... make it so every time a chest is opened or a boss defeated or whatever the source for the lead or item is, the RNG percentage increases.

So if there is a 10% chance to get said item from a delve boss for example, increase that to 15% the next time the boss is encountered, and so on. This will guarantee that the player isn't spending a year and still never getting the item.

They curated dungeon drops so why not this, too?

That would be a great idea if it were not a lot of info the servers would need to keep track of and server load is already an issue. That would be the main reason Zenimax would not implement it.

It's not about server load, it's about changing what the chest 'knows', from random generation where it doesn't need to 'know' what's generated, or what has been, or what needs to be, to having to generate something specific. The info is already in the server, it's not at the point of collection- the chest, (or other form of drop) Zos has to recode how the chests/drops work. That's all.

They explained this in a video about the IA chests.

What I replied was not about what the chest knows. The comment I replied to was about a means to cap how many attempts we had to make to get a lead which would mean that leads.

But thank you for sharing.

"That would be a great idea if it were not a lot of info the servers would need to keep track of and server load is already an issue."

Not the issue, stopping curated drops. As explained above.

"But thank you for sharing."

There's no need for that.

It is still an added load to the servers.

So yeah, I agree; there is no need, as I suggested, to handle the issue in a much simpler manner.

Amottica

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Server load is only an issue when it becomes a problem with the game's performance. Oh, wait!

There are notably better ways to address the issue than having the server track progress on every lead for every account. That would be a huge database on its own. Seriously, if the odds are 1:50, does someone want to keep those odds and face having to attempt some leads 50 times? Just seems like a bad idea overall.

They already implemented it for Gold Road leads. And also that isn't how server load works. Having a massive database per player - there already is one - that's how achievements work.

Adding to the list of databases does increase server load as it is another query that goes on. More server requests = more server load. That is exactly how servers work.

Again, I noted in a previous post an easier solution that reduces the number of attempts we will make to get a lead.

FlopsyPrince

Sorry, but the server load doesn't fly with me. That is a cost of doing business, as the saying goes. The game can't freeze in place and expect to even keep going. Anything new will add to the server load, not just tracking things.

And data is a part of many different things today so whining about it is also not helpful. Adapt or die is the saying in many different areas, including MMOs.

Gabriel_H

Amottica wrote: »

Adding to the list of databases does increase server load as it is another query that goes on. More server requests = more server load. That is exactly how servers work.

Again, I noted in a previous post an easier solution that reduces the number of attempts we will make to get a lead.

Generating the loot table is 1 request. Then a query to the loot table is another 1 request. Two in total. Having a capped RNG doesn't alter that.

ElderOfTamriel

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Adding to the list of databases does increase server load as it is another query that goes on. More server requests = more server load. That is exactly how servers work.

Again, I noted in a previous post an easier solution that reduces the number of attempts we will make to get a lead.

Generating the loot table is 1 request. Then a query to the loot table is another 1 request. Two in total. Having a capped RNG doesn't alter that.

is it possible to somehow get the content of that loot table while playing the game?

Elsonso

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Adding to the list of databases does increase server load as it is another query that goes on. More server requests = more server load. That is exactly how servers work.

Again, I noted in a previous post an easier solution that reduces the number of attempts we will make to get a lead.

Generating the loot table is 1 request. Then a query to the loot table is another 1 request. Two in total. Having a capped RNG doesn't alter that.

Obviously, we don't know what happens on the server, but we can pretend.

Capped RNG would require that some data storage be accessed to determine the history. The server cannot cap RNG if it does not know what happened previously. The client cannot be trusted to provide this information. Whether this is a database access to store across player sessions or something that is stored in the user's current session information, this will increase the load. Curated drops are stored across sessions, so that is stored in some database. Drop chances that are curated come with additional database activity. Capped RNG would not have to be like that and could reset with each new login. It may not need additional database activity, but will require additional storage, which could be "local" to the server "instance" that is temporarily handing the user's session.

barney2525

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

SonOfSoma wrote: »

There gets to a point where (if RNG is against you) trying to get that mask style, that lead, that once only cosmetic becomes tedious and soul-destroying!

Wasting hours and even days trying, continuously... and then not to have the desired "object" is a kick I the teeth.

It's too painful and sickening, especially when someone else who runs the content and has great RNG.. and ultimately gets the drop either immediately or within a couple of runs.

Doesn't this system need to be adjusted, or changed?
I don't want to waste my gaming time anymore, hoping to get that one thing I desire.

And yeah... you'll say, you don't have to do it... and now... I won't.

This RNG would not be such an issue if prices on guildstore would be more accessible to average players with average gold coffers. And if less rng items would be bound to the character.

I dunno. I play casual. Only dungeons I do are public/solo. Closest thing to Trial I have done is followed by " and Error".

But I play the events. You just have to take advantage of when you get something during an event you can sell. I've had events where I profited over a million gold just in a short time event.

You don't need to (for example) grind blue antiquities for gold if you don't want to. Making gold is difficult. Acquiring gold when opportunity knocks, is easy.

Gabriel_H

Elsonso wrote: »

Obviously, we don't know what happens on the server, but we can pretend.

Capped RNG would require that some data storage be accessed to determine the history. The server cannot cap RNG if it does not know what happened previously. The client cannot be trusted to provide this information. Whether this is a database access to store across player sessions or something that is stored in the user's current session information, this will increase the load. Curated drops are stored across sessions, so that is stored in some database. Drop chances that are curated come with additional database activity. Capped RNG would not have to be like that and could reset with each new login. It may not need additional database activity, but will require additional storage, which could be "local" to the server "instance" that is temporarily handing the user's session.

As I have already said, it has already been implemented for Gold Road leads, as well as nearly all gear sets, style/motif pages, and other curated drops. The data stored is already a massive amount - see achievements - and adding to that would be a tiny fraction of the whole. All of this is stored on the server.

Recording a boss kill as +1 is an absolutely tiny fraction of what the server is processing at that moment.

FlopsyPrince

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Adding to the list of databases does increase server load as it is another query that goes on. More server requests = more server load. That is exactly how servers work.

Again, I noted in a previous post an easier solution that reduces the number of attempts we will make to get a lead.

Generating the loot table is 1 request. Then a query to the loot table is another 1 request. Two in total. Having a capped RNG doesn't alter that.

You haven't done much development have you? Those do not necessarily need to be separated. Even simple table joins can handle things like that.

Amottica

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Adding to the list of databases does increase server load as it is another query that goes on. More server requests = more server load. That is exactly how servers work.

Again, I noted in a previous post an easier solution that reduces the number of attempts we will make to get a lead.

Generating the loot table is 1 request. Then a query to the loot table is another 1 request. Two in total. Having a capped RNG doesn't alter that.

Again, my comment was in relation to a specific request made by another player in their post and it very much applies and is appropriate.

I understand that this is a hot topic for many people and each person has an opinion on how to approach it best. I do not take it personally if someone has a different opinion than I do but that has no bearing at all on what I have posted.

Have a great day.