RNG is not welcome anymore.

spartaxoxo · August 11

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

Looking for a drop or a lead would be much worse. I have enough lockpicks, but grinding forever means I don't try.

I don't even bother wasting skillpoints on the 'break' passive.
I just pick the lock the long way and take the XP for my effort.
You get more loot for picking over forcing. Soul gems etc.

It's the same loot afaik

SonOfSoma · August 11

Update.

I've just ran my 60th run of vCoA2 for the style page and I still haven't had it drop.

This is probably the worst RNG I've ever had...

Let's say it takes 20mins, on average to run the dungeon... that's 20hrs wasted... and I have now finally given up..
It's stressed me out too much!

There really has to be a fairer way.

tmbrinks · August 11

I'm a "wants everything" player.

I long ago decided to do activities in the game that were more guaranteed income (writs, primarily).

Sure, I'll run the content a few times to try my "luck" at getting the rare drops, but I let others farm the RNG and I just buy the items I want.

Skullstachio · August 11

SonOfSoma wrote: »

Update.

I've just ran my 60th run of vCoA2 for the style page and I still haven't had it drop.

This is probably the worst RNG I've ever had...

Let's say it takes 20mins, on average to run the dungeon... that's 20hrs wasted... and I have now finally given up..
It's stressed me out too much!

There really has to be a fairer way.

Question: Did you have the veteran mode achievement unlocked for CoA 2 which improves the drop chances of the respective Monster set style page.

note: If you already did beforehand, the only advice I can give you with utmost truthful brutality, is that you move on from this game like I did back 3 - 4 months ago and play a different game that actually respects your time and effort.

because if you are not playing the game to enjoy yourself, ask yourself what are you even doing? (because when trying to unlock a specific item becomes more of a job than actual fun, you know something ain't right with it in it's whole entirety.)

SonOfSoma · August 11

Yeah.. Hard mode unlocked on all characters I'm playing with.

And yes.. I've taken that same advise you offered into hand and decided to not even bother anymore.

It's gone beyond my enjoyment zone, Into a state of perpetual thinking that my next run will be "the one".
It's a trap of sorts.. thinking "I've done this multiple times now, surely it'll drop this time "

I think I've actually realised it's not even worth the stress of actually chasing just a *** cosmetic...

xylena_lazarow · August 11

Non-deterministic RNG grinds should be abolished. Yes, there is in fact a nonzero chance you'll spend the rest of your gaming life chasing that drop and never getting it. Likewise, abolish the combination of time gates with RNG. Waiting an entire day just for another chance to gamble on something you literally may never see in your life? No thanks.

FlopsyPrince · August 12

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Part of the problem is that it isn't really random, real random is hard to code. It is sort-of-mostly random. And the sorta mostly part can have problems.

For ink drops it does seem that something is off. The variation in people's different experiences is not what I would expect for a normal distribution.

And this particular resource is one that people can't use the new system without. It's understandable that they are upset.

Even if they suffered through the quest again on each character that's only 4 skills per. Not a lot considering the number of grimiores.

True random number generation is impossible. You can get somewhat close, but it is not possible, even today, especially with modern algorithms. I doubt ZOS is using Quantum stuff to get closer to true random....

FlopsyPrince · August 12

LaintalAy wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

Looking for a drop or a lead would be much worse. I have enough lockpicks, but grinding forever means I don't try.

I don't even bother wasting skillpoints on the 'break' passive.
I just pick the lock the long way and take the XP for my effort.
You get more loot for picking over forcing. Soul gems etc.

Do you have any evidence for this? I greatly question that the loot is different. Picking locks is a real pain on the PS5 as well! No nice color coding like on the PC (with the addon).

Thoriorz · August 12

Yes, things based purely on RNG should have some sort of cap where the player just gets them.
I don't have a solution/idea but some sort of prevention system should be there in my opinion.

lardvader · August 12

Sharpened bsw/vma/ia/moondancer inferno remember

AnduinTryggva · August 12

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Non-deterministic RNG grinds should be abolished. Yes, there is in fact a nonzero chance you'll spend the rest of your gaming life chasing that drop and never getting it. Likewise, abolish the combination of time gates with RNG. Waiting an entire day just for another chance to gamble on something you literally may never see in your life? No thanks.

Again if these items were purchasable for reasonable amounts it would not be an issue.

I guess however that it is intentional that you might chase one thing forever just because it allows other players to demand insane prices.

So we are basically in a catch 22 situation.

Introduce a pity drop algorithm that enforces a drop will make rare items not rare at all. This would crash the market on some items.

I think however a pity drop algorithm should be mandatory for any item that cannot be sold (like for leads).

xylena_lazarow · August 12

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

This would crash the market on some items.

I know right? How else am I gonna hoard billions of gold while laughing at the poors trying to grind.

Elsonso · August 12

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

Hmmm. This is not really all that significant for only four attempts on a single chest. Annoying, sure, I can see that. It is within the range of the expected number of attempts required for a 99.9% chance of successfully opening that one chest. Four attempts are at the "less lucky" end of the scale, where One would be at the "more lucky" end. Even at 99.9%, there is still a chance it will take a 5th lockpick, and a proper RNG will sometimes require that.

On the bright side, just be glad they aren't Crown Crate odds.

FlopsyPrince · August 13

Elsonso wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

Hmmm. This is not really all that significant for only four attempts on a single chest. Annoying, sure, I can see that. It is within the range of the expected number of attempts required for a 99.9% chance of successfully opening that one chest. Four attempts are at the "less lucky" end of the scale, where One would be at the "more lucky" end. Even at 99.9%, there is still a chance it will take a 5th lockpick, and a proper RNG will sometimes require that.

On the bright side, just be glad they aren't Crown Crate odds.

I have shamefully spent too much money in the past on Crown Crates. The drop rates there went through the floor....

Yes, 4 random results below 20% may not be that odd, but it is not "normal" if things were truly random.

Elsonso · August 13

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

Hmmm. This is not really all that significant for only four attempts on a single chest. Annoying, sure, I can see that. It is within the range of the expected number of attempts required for a 99.9% chance of successfully opening that one chest. Four attempts are at the "less lucky" end of the scale, where One would be at the "more lucky" end. Even at 99.9%, there is still a chance it will take a 5th lockpick, and a proper RNG will sometimes require that.

On the bright side, just be glad they aren't Crown Crate odds.

I have shamefully spent too much money in the past on Crown Crates. The drop rates there went through the floor....

Yes, 4 random results below 20% may not be that odd, but it is not "normal" if things were truly random.

It would not be normal if it never happened.

FlopsyPrince · August 13

Elsonso wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

Hmmm. This is not really all that significant for only four attempts on a single chest. Annoying, sure, I can see that. It is within the range of the expected number of attempts required for a 99.9% chance of successfully opening that one chest. Four attempts are at the "less lucky" end of the scale, where One would be at the "more lucky" end. Even at 99.9%, there is still a chance it will take a 5th lockpick, and a proper RNG will sometimes require that.

On the bright side, just be glad they aren't Crown Crate odds.

I have shamefully spent too much money in the past on Crown Crates. The drop rates there went through the floor....

Yes, 4 random results below 20% may not be that odd, but it is not "normal" if things were truly random.

It would not be normal if it never happened.

It happens far too commonly to be "usual". Though I should fail 1 out of 4 times (if the fail is 20%) and that is not consistent.

Amottica · August 13

SonOfSoma wrote: »

You know what... don't care now.

I'm not chasing any of it anymore.

The game mechanics (RNG) has made me disengage with the game.

I have a saying. Alway play your game. Never let the game play you.

Ph1p · August 13

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

What you’re describing isn’t exactly unlikely with the probabilities given by the game.

The likelihood of opening a single chest within 4 tries is 99.84% (or 80% + 16% + 3.2% + 0.64%). However, the probability of never needing 5 or more tries across 100 chests is this number to the power of 100, or about 85%. So your situation would have a 15% chance of occurring. For 200 chests this increases to ~27% and with 500 chests it’s already 55%.

frogthroat · August 13

The "run the dungeon x times and the mask style page is a guaranteed drop" made me think why not a stacking chance increase? It would be in align with many of the game mechanics.

Each time you run the dungeon, if no drop, your drop chance increases by 0.8% or something. It already increases if you run the dungeon on Hard Mode, so it wouldn't be impossible to include some other drop chance increase calculation. This way your drop chance would eventually be so high that it would be virtually guaranteed. It would still be RNG but your chances would increase each time you run it. Once you get it, your accumulating drop chance drops back to zero to prevent guaranteed drop farming.

ApoAlaia · August 13

I don't personally have a problem with RNG 'per se', I have played thousands upon thousands of hours of ARPGs after all, however in an ARPG the RNG feeds into the power fantasy.

You grind to get more powerful to fight veritable hordes of harder enemies to get better items that increase your power level and the cycle continues.

It is simple but also in a way cathartic.

However in ESO you grind to stay the same, just with a different flavour.

Furthermore there is nothing cathartic about killing architons, menial mobs if there ever were any, one or two at a time, the majority of which do not leave an instance of loot behind unless you cheese it and use 'The Light of Arkthzand' to 'trick' the game into making the instances of loot more likely, for an infinitesimal chance of one of a number of leads to complete the vanity pet.

This is just one example of what for yours truly appears to be egregious time wasting mechanics. One of many.

Since they released the antiquities system they have leant more and more on it to sap player's time, only the latest chapter showing some sort of reprieve in this regard (not in the amount mind you, just in the time investment required to acquire the wretched leads which seem to be unusually forthcoming).

One could argue that everything in the game is time wasting and ultimately amounts to nothing substantial, but the key element that is missing is 'having fun/being entertained in the process'.

For yours truly there is nothing fun in the above proposition, just the sense of relief if/when is done and over with. The process itself is mired in drudgery.

I keep hoping that they will relent and implement some flavour of 'pity mechanic' (if you spend long enough mired in drudgery even condescension may take the guise of mercy), surely next patch will be the one? however as years go by this anticipation seems more and more like gambler's fallacy under a disguise.

Elsonso · August 13

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It happens far too commonly to be "usual". Though I should fail 1 out of 4 times (if the fail is 20%) and that is not consistent.

If fail is 20%, that means that every time you try, you have a 20% chance to fail. It does not mean you will only fail once in a given number of times.

In a properly functioning random generator, a success of 80% means that there is always a chance of failure.

The properly functioning RNG does not can how many times the player fails before they succeed, if they ever succeed. It does not care how many times the player succeeds before they fail, if they ever fail. It does not care who the player is, or what their history is. It does not care whether the last player succeeded. It does not know if the next player will succeed. It generates a random number in the expected range, within the expected probability for that number, every time.

When players complain about RNG, I don't see them asking for more random. I see them asking for more results in their favor.

Yes, ESO needs a random outcome system that favors the player. If they have one, it needs to be better. If they don't have one, they need to consider adding one.

They could bring "Luck" back to Elder Scrolls, for example, and bias the results in favor of the player.

The "pity mechanism" is also a good one, as it provides for a guaranteed success after the RNG has chosen failure too many times.

ElderOfTamriel · August 13

SonOfSoma wrote: »

You know what... don't care now.

I'm not chasing any of it anymore.

The game mechanics (RNG) has made me disengage with the game.

Actually one of the only reason i still play this game is RNG. I love collecting and that feeling when you finally get that item you wanted is huge. I had to hunt a single furnishing item for like 17-20h till i finally managed to pull it. Still farming for some missing items which are very rare and hard to get, i like it tho.

Agreed it can be very frustrating, but when that appears i just take a break and do something other in the game i still like, like trading and go back to farming the next day, or even week. Been farming some items since almost a year on and off and havent gotten a single one i really wanted. gotten some others but they arent really rare, still very hard to get tho.

FlopsyPrince · August 13

Ph1p wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

What you’re describing isn’t exactly unlikely with the probabilities given by the game.

The likelihood of opening a single chest within 4 tries is 99.84% (or 80% + 16% + 3.2% + 0.64%). However, the probability of never needing 5 or more tries across 100 chests is this number to the power of 100, or about 85%. So your situation would have a 15% chance of occurring. For 200 chests this increases to ~27% and with 500 chests it’s already 55%.

How about understanding the point rather than arguing the pedantics? That is not helpful, though several of you have jumped on it.

The point is that things seem quite horrid in RNG. Arguing things doesn't help the perception. The perception is far more important for content players!

SilverBride · August 13

Keep RNG but... make it so every time a chest is opened or a boss defeated or whatever the source for the lead or item is, the RNG percentage increases.

So if there is a 10% chance to get said item from a delve boss for example, increase that to 15% the next time the boss is encountered, and so on. This will guarantee that the player isn't spending a year and still never getting the item.

They curated dungeon drops so why not this, too?

derkaiserliche · August 13

Skullstachio wrote: »

SonOfSoma wrote: »

Update.

I've just ran my 60th run of vCoA2 for the style page and I still haven't had it drop.

This is probably the worst RNG I've ever had...

Let's say it takes 20mins, on average to run the dungeon... that's 20hrs wasted... and I have now finally given up..
It's stressed me out too much!

There really has to be a fairer way.

Question: Did you have the veteran mode achievement unlocked for CoA 2 which improves the drop chances of the respective Monster set style page.

note: If you already did beforehand, the only advice I can give you with utmost truthful brutality, is that you move on from this game like I did back 3 - 4 months ago and play a different game that actually respects your time and effort.

because if you are not playing the game to enjoy yourself, ask yourself what are you even doing? (because when trying to unlock a specific item becomes more of a job than actual fun, you know something ain't right with it in it's whole entirety.)

Seems you miss it alot when you are on these forums.

Necrotech_Master · August 13

tmbrinks wrote: »

I'm a "wants everything" player.

I long ago decided to do activities in the game that were more guaranteed income (writs, primarily).

Sure, I'll run the content a few times to try my "luck" at getting the rare drops, but I let others farm the RNG and I just buy the items I want.

this is kind of what i do

if the item is excessively low drop rate, ill use whatever a better method is of getting it

monster style pages for example, ive been just collecting those by buying them from the archive on the weekly vendor, ive gone from like less than 10% collected to almost 50% collected since the archive released

Ph1p · August 13

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

What you’re describing isn’t exactly unlikely with the probabilities given by the game.

The likelihood of opening a single chest within 4 tries is 99.84% (or 80% + 16% + 3.2% + 0.64%). However, the probability of never needing 5 or more tries across 100 chests is this number to the power of 100, or about 85%. So your situation would have a 15% chance of occurring. For 200 chests this increases to ~27% and with 500 chests it’s already 55%.

How about understanding the point rather than arguing the pedantics? That is not helpful, though several of you have jumped on it.

The point is that things seem quite horrid in RNG. Arguing things doesn't help the perception. The perception is far more important for content players!

Actually, I literally argued against RNG systems just above your post that I quoted, so not sure why you're being so defensive. I was curious about the numbers and how unlucky this streak of lockpick fails actually is. Besides, arguing based on flawed perception isn't helpful either. But overall, I'm not a fan of pure RNG and have stated so in this and other threads.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It happens far too commonly to be "usual". Though I should fail 1 out of 4 times (if the fail is 20%) and that is not consistent.

Speaking of pedantics, if the fail rate is 20%, you should fail 1 out of 5 times, not 4

AngryPenguin · August 13

The most soul destroying gaming experience I've ever had was the grind for the style pages during the 10th anniversary event. That was so the opposite of a celebration it made the event truly unforgettable, for all the wrong reasons.

SilverBride · August 13

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The most soul destroying gaming experience I've ever had was the grind for the style pages during the 10th anniversary event. That was so the opposite of a celebration it made the event truly unforgettable.

That was absolutely the most horrific grind in any of the games I've played ever. The worst part is we begged for some conversation about it and not one single word was ever communicated back to us.

FlopsyPrince · August 13

Ph1p wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Talking about RNG: I failed 4 times trying to pop a Medium chest. I believe that is 80%. That means I got under 20% 4 times in a row. Annoying , but a feature of such RNG and poor RNG engines.

What you’re describing isn’t exactly unlikely with the probabilities given by the game.

The likelihood of opening a single chest within 4 tries is 99.84% (or 80% + 16% + 3.2% + 0.64%). However, the probability of never needing 5 or more tries across 100 chests is this number to the power of 100, or about 85%. So your situation would have a 15% chance of occurring. For 200 chests this increases to ~27% and with 500 chests it’s already 55%.

How about understanding the point rather than arguing the pedantics? That is not helpful, though several of you have jumped on it.

The point is that things seem quite horrid in RNG. Arguing things doesn't help the perception. The perception is far more important for content players!

Actually, I literally argued against RNG systems just above your post that I quoted, so not sure why you're being so defensive. I was curious about the numbers and how unlucky this streak of lockpick fails actually is. Besides, arguing based on flawed perception isn't helpful either. But overall, I'm not a fan of pure RNG and have stated so in this and other threads.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

It happens far too commonly to be "usual". Though I should fail 1 out of 4 times (if the fail is 20%) and that is not consistent.

Speaking of pedantics, if the fail rate is 20%, you should fail 1 out of 5 times, not 4

Then you were not the right one to reply to. Sorry about that. I just get tired of the "RNG can allow you to fail 1000s of times" type arguments. Yes it can, and that is the flaw!