Vampire - Undeath rollback to v10.1.0 ZOS

ToRelax · August 1

Well, with this I think I can justify not being a vampire next update. Which is a huge win.

xylena_lazarow · August 1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Should definitely require a skill on the bar.

Front bar vamp slash, back bar clown form ult. Not really much of a cost. I'd rather see the weakness to Dawnbreaker and friends be more pronounced, the vulnerability debuff shouldn't still be getting offset by Undeath.

Bushido2513 · August 1

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Should definitely require a skill on the bar.

Front bar vamp slash, back bar clown form ult. Not really much of a cost. I'd rather see the weakness to Dawnbreaker and friends be more pronounced, the vulnerability debuff shouldn't still be getting offset by Undeath.

Depends on the build but yes it would affect some more than others. For me those changes would border on breaking my build.

Honestly I'm thinking of a lot of staple builds and it wouldn't be good.

Rangeplar wouldn't really gain much from any of those. NB would have to slot a sub par skill, stamsorc has better options and mag sorc wouldn't want to be that close.

Warden is the class that I most see using the spamable. So it depends on build but I can say if it was a requirement I probably just wouldn't be a vamp and would be ok fighting anyone choosing to slot those skills or really any of the vamp skills because they are mostly niche and mediocre when you sing I build for them which is only good on certain classes and builds

Vevvev · August 2

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

30% was way too much. 15 is better. I liked 10 at stage 1 best, but hopefully this makes the "we get nothing at stage 3" camp happy.

As someone who was in that camp, I'm happy. At 50% HP that's still 7.5% damage reduction. Sure, it sucks if you truly go with the Blood for Blood playstyle I do, but it's better than nothing. Still would've liked a different kind of boost to make up for the lack of damage reduction instead of just making the damage reduction a 50% nerf.

Morvan · August 4

They did mention they're not completely settled with it, so hopefully in the future that passive will turn into something that better encompasses the rest of the vampire kit. I honestly really like the vampire skills and wish we had more reasons to use them, Undeath could be a reward for using the vampire skills rather than just a tanky buff for any build.

Frooke · August 4

Undeath should be something like Minor Protection or Major Resolve for 8 seconds after using a vampire skill. Major Protection would be very strong for the nowadays meta. This would remove the requirement to be a vampire, but would benefit people who actually want to be a vampire and use its skills.

bladenick · August 5

Frooke wrote: »

Undeath should be something like Minor Protection or Major Resolve for 8 seconds after using a vampire skill. Major Protection would be very strong for the nowadays meta. This would remove the requirement to be a vampire, but would benefit people who actually want to be a vampire and use its skills.

Need adjust range burst proc, or you will find dead instantly by range proc ganker, there only 2 option in BG, range ganker and tanker

huskandhunger · August 5

Make Undeath be minor protection at all times above 50% HP, and major protection at all times below 50% HP. That, or the unique 10% at all times.

darvaria · August 7

Nerfing the undeath passive, a passive that has been in the game from years. It took you how many years to figure out "hey this isn't good?" A lot of players just take long breaks from the game rather than rebuild after every update.

You've already ruined mist.

I'm tired of the continual nerfs. Just buff up something else and stop nerfing. Then players would make voluntary changes to obtain a better build.

VinnyGambini · August 7

Morvan wrote: »

They did mention they're not completely settled with it, so hopefully in the future that passive will turn into something that better encompasses the rest of the vampire kit. I honestly really like the vampire skills and wish we had more reasons to use them, Undeath could be a reward for using the vampire skills rather than just a tanky buff for any build.

Many patches ago they reduced dmg you need to reach maximum backlash dmg. They said they will monitor it, and they are not settled.

I'm quite sure that this case will be the same.

Sparkrip · August 11

i11ionward wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Someone who knows whether this mitigation is additive or multiplicative please chime in.

Maybe @Sparkrip can clear the situation? If I'm not mistaken, before the mitigation change in the previous patch, Undeath worked additively.
Sparkrip is the author of this topic - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8102647#Comment_8102647

I already got the new formula ill update the spreadsheet when patch goes live. Also there is no additive sections for mitigation, or at least not anymore since the zos fix. There is a system that multiplies some sources of mitigation together then rounds them. It doesn't include all the mitigation sources but some of them, and yes vamp falls under this weird section. The screenshot above is what I got in my testing.

Sparkrip · August 11

the penalties are subtractive however that hasn't changed.

albertberku · August 12

For the players that wasnt using vamp, this patch is going to be straight 15% dmg buff in cyrodiil, this is so crazy to think about! It was really disgusting getting people down to 1/4 health in seconds and then to finish off need like another 10 minutes of pressure

Jsmalls · August 12

albertberku wrote: »

For the players that wasnt using vamp, this patch is going to be straight 15% dmg buff in cyrodiil, this is so crazy to think about! It was really disgusting getting people down to 1/4 health in seconds and then to finish off need like another 10 minutes of pressure

15% damage buff only comes at ~5% health.

What you will see is likely a 6-9% damage buff against health thresholds that matter.

edward_frigidhands · August 12

The ability cost increase no longer has a place in any stage of vampirism with the nerf.

edward_frigidhands · August 12

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I would still like to see this passive simply abolished.

However, scaling it by Vampire Stage is a good idea - though you would really need to amp the penalties in order to circumvent people defaulting the Stage 4 value.

At the VERY LEAST the Flame Damage penalty should equal the Undeath bonus at the same stage.

Also simply moving Undeath into Armor Rating would still be better than the current system.

That would move Undeath into a capped stat category and actually open up build choices for Vampire players in PvE. It would still be a desirable passive in PvP because player Pen exists but at least it wouldn't stack on top of Armor Rating and the suite of defensive % mods in the way that it does currently.

Likely the best implementation would even be to bring it within the named buff system and make it something like permanent Minor Resolve at Stage 1 and permanent Major Resolve at Stage 2 (or vice versa). That would also be similar in spirit to what Werewolf receives (speaking of which... remember when Werewolf got a ludicrously high unique Armor Rating modifier simply for existing... yes, that was very obviously problematic and was subsequently nerfed into Major Resolve... so it is truly astounding that Undeath has existed in its broken state for like 10x the patch cycles that Werewolves were allowed to be OP).

Werewolves have Major Protection now.

Blackrim · August 12

TDVM wrote: »

Ideally, this passive should be removed from Vampire at all, but since it will not be removed, why touch it, 5/10% was the best solution, why increase 7/15?
ZOS, you can leave 5/10% on stage 1, but on the condition that the player has a skill from the Vampire branch on any of the panels.
The first option of 5/10% on stage 1 was a good solution. If you want players to have an incentive to be on the 2nd-4th stage, then just reduce the utilization of skills and increase the damage from vampiric skills the higher the stage. @ZOS_Kevin

Find something else that makes everything past stage 1 and stage 3 worth it besides undeath. Then I will be okay with this revision.

FoJul · August 12

Ppl keep saying this or that.

Remove the damage mitagation from undeath, rework it to do sum else. EZ GG.

Give us a minor burst heal with a 30 second CD.

Zastrix · August 17

Morvan wrote: »

They did mention they're not completely settled with it, so hopefully in the future that passive will turn into something that better encompasses the rest of the vampire kit.

Sure in 202-never

LittlePinkDot · August 17

TDVM wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TDVM wrote: »

No

Yes

I wouldn't actually mind if they deleted Undeath outright, but 15% at least isn't insane.

No, removing this passive looks better than 15%, the less % the better, vampire should not be mandatory in pvp, then you need to give a similar passive to werewolf or balance vampire normally so that players think what to wear instead of wearing 3-4 sets for damage and not thinking about survivability.

It was never mandatory. I never used vampire, it makes your characters ugly and causes your skills to cost too much.

If your health gets so low that your need vamp, you've already lost the fight. Might as well have just died and got it over with.

xylena_lazarow · August 17

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

If your health gets so low that your need vamp, you've already lost the fight. Might as well have just died and got it over with.

Absolutely untrue, not that hard to turtle up and brick wall incoming damage when you've got 25% or more DR on you, with op defensive tools like Hardened Ward, Polar Wind, or Unhealthy Offering, you can get out of the danger zone fast.

This is how Undeath affects your EHP with no other variables considered, EHP=HP/(1-DR). The tl;dr of this is that PvP is now approximately 20% less tanky, a welcome change, players should not be face tanking in 3 damage/sustain sets and full six med/light armor configs. Tank up, run defensive sets, run heavy armor, etc. Balanced builds with one defensive set and one offensive set should once again be solid, with room for counterplay on either side.

Vulkunne · August 18

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

If your health gets so low that your need vamp, you've already lost the fight. Might as well have just died and got it over with.

Absolutely untrue, not that hard to turtle up and brick wall incoming damage when you've got 25% or more DR on you, with op defensive tools like Hardened Ward, Polar Wind, or Unhealthy Offering, you can get out of the danger zone fast.

This is how Undeath affects your EHP with no other variables considered, EHP=HP/(1-DR). The tl;dr of this is that PvP is now approximately 20% less tanky, a welcome change, players should not be face tanking in 3 damage/sustain sets and full six med/light armor configs. Tank up, run defensive sets, run heavy armor, etc. Balanced builds with one defensive set and one offensive set should once again be solid, with room for counterplay on either side.

Because I've discussed this subject in the past, I'm just going to say this. You're hearing it right now, I'm probably not the first to say this but I won't be the last...

Nerfing Undeath is like nerfing healing to a ball group. In other words, those who are strong and tanky in PvP are still going to find ways to stay that way.

This is why it's really best that when making a change, it's better to not lose focus so much by 'taking it out' on a single element, whether that be a skill or one class, when there's a bigger picture. So that said, this nerf to undeath is going to hurt casual players more than 'elites' and other vets like me who know what's up. And I can't speak for ZOS but I'm willing to bet the devs who looked into this came to a similar realization.

Just like nerfs in the face of a ball group are little more than a challenge to overcome, this will follow a similar path. If this accomplishes anything else, it will hurt the people in between, causing them to die faster and be even weaker to attacks from things like bombers and strong dots (artillery for example). The rest of us will be ok with a couple adjustments and someone else will come on here to pick up this subject again and want even more changes. But yes, I will grant you this, that execute damage will become more problematic, but more so for some than others.

Indeed, certain streamers out there are going to have a field day with this change.

xylena_lazarow · August 18

Vulkunne wrote: »

Nerfing Undeath is like nerfing healing to a ball group. In other words, those who are strong and tanky in PvP are still going to find ways to stay that way.

Good players will stay good? Yeah that's kinda how it works. The goal isn't to make certain players "become bad" but to balance the gear meta so it doesn't degenerate into "tanks in 3 damage sets vs unkillable bricks" like live.

necro_the_crafter · September 4

As for me, biggest issue with Undeath is that its free mitigation. You always would want that. Its just free staff. With no alternatives.

I myself would like to see another solution for this, as one - make being a vampire a distinct playstyle. That could be done by replacing Undeath mitigation with Lifesteal.
Make it that all damage you deal heals you for 50% of damage done, BUT reduce healing from other sourses by 50%. This way being vampire would reward agrresive playstyle but would make it hard for agressive vamp player to go on the defence.

Other solution is to add alternatives, free stuff to everyone. My first thouth is to add aedric blessing, avliable through shrines located different parts of tamriel or in cyrodiil.
Blessing would last for 4 hours, like a vamp stage and give respective bonuses depending on which one you choose. For example:

Blessing of Akatosh: Reduces cost of ultimates by 8%. While CC immune grant minor heroism;
Blessing of Kynareth: Reduces cost of sprint and roll dodge by 8%, grant Minor Expedition while affected by dodge fatigue;
Blessing of Julianos: Restore 500 magicka on critical hits, or critical heals, up to once every 3 seconds;
Blessing of Zenithar: Increase Armor values granted by Armor pieces by 5%, reduce cost of blocking and increase block mitigation by 3%;
Blessing of Stendarr: Increase Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra by up to 15% based on their missing health while affected by Battle Spirit, Increse Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra Monsters by 3%;
Blessing of Mara: Increase healing done by 5%, increase healing received by 5%;
Blessing of Arkay: Increase Max Health by 3%, increse frequency of health recovery to once every 1 second;
Blessing of Dibella: Increase Mag And Stam recovery by up to 200, based on you missing respective resourse.

And the thing is - you cant aquire any of the Blessings, if you are cursed. That for me is the most fair fix to vamp, free stuff to everyone.

NuarBlack · September 5

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

As for me, biggest issue with Undeath is that its free mitigation. You always would want that. Its just free staff. With no alternatives.

I myself would like to see another solution for this, as one - make being a vampire a distinct playstyle. That could be done by replacing Undeath mitigation with Lifesteal.
Make it that all damage you deal heals you for 50% of damage done, BUT reduce healing from other sourses by 50%. This way being vampire would reward agrresive playstyle but would make it hard for agressive vamp player to go on the defence.

Other solution is to add alternatives, free stuff to everyone. My first thouth is to add aedric blessing, avliable through shrines located different parts of tamriel or in cyrodiil.
Blessing would last for 4 hours, like a vamp stage and give respective bonuses depending on which one you choose. For example:

Blessing of Akatosh: Reduces cost of ultimates by 8%. While CC immune grant minor heroism;
Blessing of Kynareth: Reduces cost of sprint and roll dodge by 8%, grant Minor Expedition while affected by dodge fatigue;
Blessing of Julianos: Restore 500 magicka on critical hits, or critical heals, up to once every 3 seconds;
Blessing of Zenithar: Increase Armor values granted by Armor pieces by 5%, reduce cost of blocking and increase block mitigation by 3%;
Blessing of Stendarr: Increase Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra by up to 15% based on their missing health while affected by Battle Spirit, Increse Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra Monsters by 3%;
Blessing of Mara: Increase healing done by 5%, increase healing received by 5%;
Blessing of Arkay: Increase Max Health by 3%, increse frequency of health recovery to once every 1 second;
Blessing of Dibella: Increase Mag And Stam recovery by up to 200, based on you missing respective resourse.

And the thing is - you cant aquire any of the Blessings, if you are cursed. That for me is the most fair fix to vamp, free stuff to everyone.

Always said there should be something for staying mortal or a mortal only skill line. This would fill that role.

Erickson9610 · September 6

NuarBlack wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

As for me, biggest issue with Undeath is that its free mitigation. You always would want that. Its just free staff. With no alternatives.

I myself would like to see another solution for this, as one - make being a vampire a distinct playstyle. That could be done by replacing Undeath mitigation with Lifesteal.
Make it that all damage you deal heals you for 50% of damage done, BUT reduce healing from other sourses by 50%. This way being vampire would reward agrresive playstyle but would make it hard for agressive vamp player to go on the defence.

Other solution is to add alternatives, free stuff to everyone. My first thouth is to add aedric blessing, avliable through shrines located different parts of tamriel or in cyrodiil.
Blessing would last for 4 hours, like a vamp stage and give respective bonuses depending on which one you choose. For example:

Blessing of Akatosh: Reduces cost of ultimates by 8%. While CC immune grant minor heroism;
Blessing of Kynareth: Reduces cost of sprint and roll dodge by 8%, grant Minor Expedition while affected by dodge fatigue;
Blessing of Julianos: Restore 500 magicka on critical hits, or critical heals, up to once every 3 seconds;
Blessing of Zenithar: Increase Armor values granted by Armor pieces by 5%, reduce cost of blocking and increase block mitigation by 3%;
Blessing of Stendarr: Increase Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra by up to 15% based on their missing health while affected by Battle Spirit, Increse Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra Monsters by 3%;
Blessing of Mara: Increase healing done by 5%, increase healing received by 5%;
Blessing of Arkay: Increase Max Health by 3%, increse frequency of health recovery to once every 1 second;
Blessing of Dibella: Increase Mag And Stam recovery by up to 200, based on you missing respective resourse.

And the thing is - you cant aquire any of the Blessings, if you are cursed. That for me is the most fair fix to vamp, free stuff to everyone.

Always said there should be something for staying mortal or a mortal only skill line. This would fill that role.

And I always say that the benefit of staying mortal is that you don't have to deal with the penalties of being a Werewolf or a Vampire. Why would people play Werewolf or even Vampire if they lose even more bonuses than they already do?

To spell out the penalties of each:

Vampire
- Depending on your Stage, you get -10%/-30%/-60%/-100% Health Recovery, +5%/+8%/+13%/+20% Flame Damage taken, and +3%/+5%/+8%/+12% increased non-Vampire ability costs at all times.
- You take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities at all times.
- You can't interact with non-Assistant NPCs while at Stage 4 without the use of the Mesmerize skill.
- You slowly decrease your Stage over time and must continually Feed if you wish to remain at higher Stages.
- You are given a Vampire-themed Skin which changes depending on your Stage. If you like the look of your non-cursed form, you have to use some other Skin to get a glimpse of it back. Otherwise, your Body and Face Markings don't show up well with the Vampire Skins.
- All of your Vampire abilities (except for Mesmerize) are Criminal Act abilities
  - You don't need to use them, but you are incentivized to use them with the reduction to their cost depending on your Stage.
Werewolf
- You must slot the Ultimate to gain any passive bonuses in human form. The only accessible bonus is +15% Stamina Recovery, which in many cases is hardly worth taking up an Ultimate slot by itself.
  - You could also slot Roar or Hircine's Bounty for passive Major Savagery/Prophecy or Major Brutality/Sorcery, but you can't use those abilities in human form, so they'd only waste bar space while there are better alternatives available.
- You must actually transform to gain any bonuses or penalties past the opportunity cost of slotting Werewolf Transformation on your human form bars.
- While transformed, you lose access to all of your human form abilities (including all of your weapon passives and other passives which require human form abilities to be slotted or used). This alone is the largest downside of Werewolf — you can't swap in better abilities if Werewolf is in a bad spot balance-wise, you lack options for ranged or magicka damage dealing, and you have no ally heal ability. You can't restore Magicka (needed for your heal) with heavy attacks or abilities, and all of your abilities are Criminal Act abilities that are balanced to cost 25% more than similar non-Werewolf abilities. You also have no in-form Ultimate ability — attempting to use it just reverts your form.
- While transformed, you take 25% extra Poison Damage and you take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities.
- While transformed, you can't sneak, bar swap, mount, or interact with things like Excavation dig sites, fishing spots, crafting stations, or non-Assistant NPCs. Some basic character functionality is inaccessible to Werewolves while transformed.
- While transformed, you can't use certain Assistants like the crow merchant or banker, due to them requiring a unique animation for your player that Werewolves don't have. Hopefully you didn't spend Crowns on these Assistants hoping to use them while transformed.
- While transformed, you have to manage a transformation timer, which can be difficult to maintain in some scenarios, particularly in dungeons, Cyrodiil, and the overworld.
- Unlike non-cursed and Vampire characters, Werewolves have fewer ability and cosmetic options while transformed. While transformed, they cannot emote, and they have no animations for recalling and for using most Mementos. With the transformation timer, roleplaying in Werewolf form is a hassle — but at least you can use the Hunter's Glade player house or one of the three Werewolf shrines located in The Rift, Bangkorai, or Reaper's March to temporarily pause the timer while transformed there.

Non-cursed characters don't have to deal with any of the above. Why should we further disadvantage Werewolves and Vampires, just because non-cursed characters want to feel special for not having the advantages that these curses are given for putting up with these penalties?

necro_the_crafter · September 6

Erickson9610 wrote: »

And I always say that the benefit of staying mortal is that you don't have to deal with the penalties of being a Werewolf or a Vampire. Why would people play Werewolf or even Vampire if they lose even more bonuses than they already do?

To spell out the penalties of each:
Vampire
Depending on your Stage, you get -10%/-30%/-60%/-100% Health Recovery, +5%/+8%/+13%/+20% Flame Damage taken, and +3%/+5%/+8%/+12% increased non-Vampire ability costs at all times.

You take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities at all times.

You can't interact with non-Assistant NPCs while at Stage 4 without the use of the Mesmerize skill.

You slowly decrease your Stage over time and must continually Feed if you wish to remain at higher Stages.

You are given a Vampire-themed Skin which changes depending on your Stage. If you like the look of your non-cursed form, you have to use some other Skin to get a glimpse of it back. Otherwise, your Body and Face Markings don't show up well with the Vampire Skins.

All of your Vampire abilities (except for Mesmerize) are Criminal Act abilities
You don't need to use them, but you are incentivized to use them with the reduction to their cost depending on your Stage.

Werewolf
You must slot the Ultimate to gain any passive bonuses in human form. The only accessible bonus is +15% Stamina Recovery, which in many cases is hardly worth taking up an Ultimate slot by itself.
You could also slot Roar or Hircine's Bounty for passive Major Savagery/Prophecy or Major Brutality/Sorcery, but you can't use those abilities in human form, so they'd only waste bar space while there are better alternatives available.

You must actually transform to gain any bonuses or penalties past the opportunity cost of slotting Werewolf Transformation on your human form bars.

While transformed, you lose access to all of your human form abilities (including all of your weapon passives and other passives which require human form abilities to be slotted or used). This alone is the largest downside of Werewolf — you can't swap in better abilities if Werewolf is in a bad spot balance-wise, you lack options for ranged or magicka damage dealing, and you have no ally heal ability. You can't restore Magicka (needed for your heal) with heavy attacks or abilities, and all of your abilities are Criminal Act abilities that are balanced to cost 25% more than similar non-Werewolf abilities. You also have no in-form Ultimate ability — attempting to use it just reverts your form.

While transformed, you take 25% extra Poison Damage and you take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities.

While transformed, you can't sneak, bar swap, mount, or interact with things like Excavation dig sites, fishing spots, crafting stations, or non-Assistant NPCs. Some basic character functionality is inaccessible to Werewolves while transformed.

While transformed, you can't use certain Assistants like the crow merchant or banker, due to them requiring a unique animation for your player that Werewolves don't have. Hopefully you didn't spend Crowns on these Assistants hoping to use them while transformed.

While transformed, you have to manage a transformation timer, which can be difficult to maintain in some scenarios, particularly in dungeons, Cyrodiil, and the overworld.

Unlike non-cursed and Vampire characters, Werewolves have fewer ability and cosmetic options while transformed. While transformed, they cannot emote, and they have no animations for recalling and for using most Mementos. With the transformation timer, roleplaying in Werewolf form is a hassle — but at least you can use the Hunter's Glade player house or one of the three Werewolf shrines located in The Rift, Bangkorai, or Reaper's March to temporarily pause the timer while transformed there.

Non-cursed characters don't have to deal with any of the above. Why should we further disadvantage Werewolves and Vampires, just because non-cursed characters want to feel special for not having the advantages that these curses are given for putting up with these penalties?

Yea but vamps take less damage due to undeath, and at the extreme you take 15% less damge, which is means that you still take 3% LESS damage from the fire, and 5% LESS damage from fighters guild. WW is in its own playstyle, and if blessings would be implemented WW deserves a buff, while vamp as it is gives you free mitigation for no substential penalty whatsoever, and desrves a rework to be more simmilar to WW - requiring its own playstyle. OR for free stuff to be given to everybody that is not vamp.

NuarBlack · September 6

Erickson9610 wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

As for me, biggest issue with Undeath is that its free mitigation. You always would want that. Its just free staff. With no alternatives.

I myself would like to see another solution for this, as one - make being a vampire a distinct playstyle. That could be done by replacing Undeath mitigation with Lifesteal.
Make it that all damage you deal heals you for 50% of damage done, BUT reduce healing from other sourses by 50%. This way being vampire would reward agrresive playstyle but would make it hard for agressive vamp player to go on the defence.

Other solution is to add alternatives, free stuff to everyone. My first thouth is to add aedric blessing, avliable through shrines located different parts of tamriel or in cyrodiil.
Blessing would last for 4 hours, like a vamp stage and give respective bonuses depending on which one you choose. For example:

Blessing of Akatosh: Reduces cost of ultimates by 8%. While CC immune grant minor heroism;
Blessing of Kynareth: Reduces cost of sprint and roll dodge by 8%, grant Minor Expedition while affected by dodge fatigue;
Blessing of Julianos: Restore 500 magicka on critical hits, or critical heals, up to once every 3 seconds;
Blessing of Zenithar: Increase Armor values granted by Armor pieces by 5%, reduce cost of blocking and increase block mitigation by 3%;
Blessing of Stendarr: Increase Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra by up to 15% based on their missing health while affected by Battle Spirit, Increse Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra Monsters by 3%;
Blessing of Mara: Increase healing done by 5%, increase healing received by 5%;
Blessing of Arkay: Increase Max Health by 3%, increse frequency of health recovery to once every 1 second;
Blessing of Dibella: Increase Mag And Stam recovery by up to 200, based on you missing respective resourse.

And the thing is - you cant aquire any of the Blessings, if you are cursed. That for me is the most fair fix to vamp, free stuff to everyone.

Always said there should be something for staying mortal or a mortal only skill line. This would fill that role.

And I always say that the benefit of staying mortal is that you don't have to deal with the penalties of being a Werewolf or a Vampire. Why would people play Werewolf or even Vampire if they lose even more bonuses than they already do?

To spell out the penalties of each:
Vampire
Depending on your Stage, you get -10%/-30%/-60%/-100% Health Recovery, +5%/+8%/+13%/+20% Flame Damage taken, and +3%/+5%/+8%/+12% increased non-Vampire ability costs at all times.

You take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities at all times.

You can't interact with non-Assistant NPCs while at Stage 4 without the use of the Mesmerize skill.

You slowly decrease your Stage over time and must continually Feed if you wish to remain at higher Stages.

You are given a Vampire-themed Skin which changes depending on your Stage. If you like the look of your non-cursed form, you have to use some other Skin to get a glimpse of it back. Otherwise, your Body and Face Markings don't show up well with the Vampire Skins.

All of your Vampire abilities (except for Mesmerize) are Criminal Act abilities
You don't need to use them, but you are incentivized to use them with the reduction to their cost depending on your Stage.

Werewolf
You must slot the Ultimate to gain any passive bonuses in human form. The only accessible bonus is +15% Stamina Recovery, which in many cases is hardly worth taking up an Ultimate slot by itself.
You could also slot Roar or Hircine's Bounty for passive Major Savagery/Prophecy or Major Brutality/Sorcery, but you can't use those abilities in human form, so they'd only waste bar space while there are better alternatives available.

You must actually transform to gain any bonuses or penalties past the opportunity cost of slotting Werewolf Transformation on your human form bars.

While transformed, you lose access to all of your human form abilities (including all of your weapon passives and other passives which require human form abilities to be slotted or used). This alone is the largest downside of Werewolf — you can't swap in better abilities if Werewolf is in a bad spot balance-wise, you lack options for ranged or magicka damage dealing, and you have no ally heal ability. You can't restore Magicka (needed for your heal) with heavy attacks or abilities, and all of your abilities are Criminal Act abilities that are balanced to cost 25% more than similar non-Werewolf abilities. You also have no in-form Ultimate ability — attempting to use it just reverts your form.

While transformed, you take 25% extra Poison Damage and you take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities.

While transformed, you can't sneak, bar swap, mount, or interact with things like Excavation dig sites, fishing spots, crafting stations, or non-Assistant NPCs. Some basic character functionality is inaccessible to Werewolves while transformed.

While transformed, you can't use certain Assistants like the crow merchant or banker, due to them requiring a unique animation for your player that Werewolves don't have. Hopefully you didn't spend Crowns on these Assistants hoping to use them while transformed.

While transformed, you have to manage a transformation timer, which can be difficult to maintain in some scenarios, particularly in dungeons, Cyrodiil, and the overworld.

Unlike non-cursed and Vampire characters, Werewolves have fewer ability and cosmetic options while transformed. While transformed, they cannot emote, and they have no animations for recalling and for using most Mementos. With the transformation timer, roleplaying in Werewolf form is a hassle — but at least you can use the Hunter's Glade player house or one of the three Werewolf shrines located in The Rift, Bangkorai, or Reaper's March to temporarily pause the timer while transformed there.

Non-cursed characters don't have to deal with any of the above. Why should we further disadvantage Werewolves and Vampires, just because non-cursed characters want to feel special for not having the advantages that these curses are given for putting up with these penalties?

None of the above are a problem. Sustain is a joke in the game these days and Health recovery was nerfed into oblivion and undeath counters all damage increases. Werewolf might have somewhere to complain but that would be well down on the list of problems with Werewolf.

That being said, if you provided benefits for mortals we could do away with the clunky kiss/curse BS that has proved to not work that Vamp and Werewolf have and just balance around the benefits and playstyles.

Erickson9610 · September 6

NuarBlack wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

As for me, biggest issue with Undeath is that its free mitigation. You always would want that. Its just free staff. With no alternatives.

I myself would like to see another solution for this, as one - make being a vampire a distinct playstyle. That could be done by replacing Undeath mitigation with Lifesteal.
Make it that all damage you deal heals you for 50% of damage done, BUT reduce healing from other sourses by 50%. This way being vampire would reward agrresive playstyle but would make it hard for agressive vamp player to go on the defence.

Other solution is to add alternatives, free stuff to everyone. My first thouth is to add aedric blessing, avliable through shrines located different parts of tamriel or in cyrodiil.
Blessing would last for 4 hours, like a vamp stage and give respective bonuses depending on which one you choose. For example:

Blessing of Akatosh: Reduces cost of ultimates by 8%. While CC immune grant minor heroism;
Blessing of Kynareth: Reduces cost of sprint and roll dodge by 8%, grant Minor Expedition while affected by dodge fatigue;
Blessing of Julianos: Restore 500 magicka on critical hits, or critical heals, up to once every 3 seconds;
Blessing of Zenithar: Increase Armor values granted by Armor pieces by 5%, reduce cost of blocking and increase block mitigation by 3%;
Blessing of Stendarr: Increase Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra by up to 15% based on their missing health while affected by Battle Spirit, Increse Damage dealt to Undead and Daedra Monsters by 3%;
Blessing of Mara: Increase healing done by 5%, increase healing received by 5%;
Blessing of Arkay: Increase Max Health by 3%, increse frequency of health recovery to once every 1 second;
Blessing of Dibella: Increase Mag And Stam recovery by up to 200, based on you missing respective resourse.

And the thing is - you cant aquire any of the Blessings, if you are cursed. That for me is the most fair fix to vamp, free stuff to everyone.

Always said there should be something for staying mortal or a mortal only skill line. This would fill that role.

And I always say that the benefit of staying mortal is that you don't have to deal with the penalties of being a Werewolf or a Vampire. Why would people play Werewolf or even Vampire if they lose even more bonuses than they already do?

To spell out the penalties of each:
Vampire
Depending on your Stage, you get -10%/-30%/-60%/-100% Health Recovery, +5%/+8%/+13%/+20% Flame Damage taken, and +3%/+5%/+8%/+12% increased non-Vampire ability costs at all times.

You take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities at all times.

You can't interact with non-Assistant NPCs while at Stage 4 without the use of the Mesmerize skill.

You slowly decrease your Stage over time and must continually Feed if you wish to remain at higher Stages.

You are given a Vampire-themed Skin which changes depending on your Stage. If you like the look of your non-cursed form, you have to use some other Skin to get a glimpse of it back. Otherwise, your Body and Face Markings don't show up well with the Vampire Skins.

All of your Vampire abilities (except for Mesmerize) are Criminal Act abilities
You don't need to use them, but you are incentivized to use them with the reduction to their cost depending on your Stage.

Werewolf
You must slot the Ultimate to gain any passive bonuses in human form. The only accessible bonus is +15% Stamina Recovery, which in many cases is hardly worth taking up an Ultimate slot by itself.
You could also slot Roar or Hircine's Bounty for passive Major Savagery/Prophecy or Major Brutality/Sorcery, but you can't use those abilities in human form, so they'd only waste bar space while there are better alternatives available.

You must actually transform to gain any bonuses or penalties past the opportunity cost of slotting Werewolf Transformation on your human form bars.

While transformed, you lose access to all of your human form abilities (including all of your weapon passives and other passives which require human form abilities to be slotted or used). This alone is the largest downside of Werewolf — you can't swap in better abilities if Werewolf is in a bad spot balance-wise, you lack options for ranged or magicka damage dealing, and you have no ally heal ability. You can't restore Magicka (needed for your heal) with heavy attacks or abilities, and all of your abilities are Criminal Act abilities that are balanced to cost 25% more than similar non-Werewolf abilities. You also have no in-form Ultimate ability — attempting to use it just reverts your form.

While transformed, you take 25% extra Poison Damage and you take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities.

While transformed, you can't sneak, bar swap, mount, or interact with things like Excavation dig sites, fishing spots, crafting stations, or non-Assistant NPCs. Some basic character functionality is inaccessible to Werewolves while transformed.

While transformed, you can't use certain Assistants like the crow merchant or banker, due to them requiring a unique animation for your player that Werewolves don't have. Hopefully you didn't spend Crowns on these Assistants hoping to use them while transformed.

While transformed, you have to manage a transformation timer, which can be difficult to maintain in some scenarios, particularly in dungeons, Cyrodiil, and the overworld.

Unlike non-cursed and Vampire characters, Werewolves have fewer ability and cosmetic options while transformed. While transformed, they cannot emote, and they have no animations for recalling and for using most Mementos. With the transformation timer, roleplaying in Werewolf form is a hassle — but at least you can use the Hunter's Glade player house or one of the three Werewolf shrines located in The Rift, Bangkorai, or Reaper's March to temporarily pause the timer while transformed there.

Non-cursed characters don't have to deal with any of the above. Why should we further disadvantage Werewolves and Vampires, just because non-cursed characters want to feel special for not having the advantages that these curses are given for putting up with these penalties?

None of the above are a problem. Sustain is a joke in the game these days and Health recovery was nerfed into oblivion and undeath counters all damage increases. Werewolf might have somewhere to complain but that would be well down on the list of problems with Werewolf.

That being said, if you provided benefits for mortals we could do away with the clunky kiss/curse BS that has proved to not work that Vamp and Werewolf have and just balance around the benefits and playstyles.

So you'd propose removing the downsides of Vampire and Werewolf (such as the sustain issues, the increased damage taken, and so on) if non-cursed characters had their own unique buffs?

That'd be one way to balance the system — where everyone has no downsides, and what they choose (non-cursed, Werewolf, or Vampire) just adds additional buffs to them. That would mean Vampires and Werewolves would no longer take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities or Flame/Poison Damage, respectively, because now non-cursed players have their own buffs to compensate for that relative change in power.

That'd be a confusing decision to make lorewise — but the alternative just increases the opportunity cost of picking either Vampire or Werewolf, who miss out on the non-cursed bonuses while retaining their own penalties. Ideally, the penalties of the Werewolf and Vampire curses should be enough of a relative benefit for non-cursed characters to choose to remain uncursed if they don't want the benefits of those curses.

In most cases, it's easy to imagine why a player would choose to not pick Werewolf — they'd be giving up all of their regular abilities while transformed, and maybe they don't like how Werewolf changes their character's appearance. A player would have to weigh the benefits of Vampire to its downsides — currently, the sneak bonuses make Stage 1 Vampire extremely desirable for stealthy playstyles, but now Undeath isn't as desirable for tanky playstyles due to the nerf. Werewolf completely changes your playstyle, while Vampire adds on to your existing playstyle — without necessarily requiring any Vampire abilities to be used.

You might consider the non-cursed bonuses (or skill line, if we go that far) to be just a copy of the Vampire skill line, in the sense that it gives passive bonuses to the player and also some Active Abilities, but players don't have to engage with the skill line at all to get the bonuses of that skill line. Though I suspect that players would soon treat the non-cursed skill line exactly like they treated the Vampire skill line up to this point if there are no strict requirements for the passives.

Really, the only feasible way I can imagine to make a non-cursed skill line work is to have the passives require its Active Abilities to be slotted and used. Most skill lines in this game work like this — you have to slot and use their abilities to get benefits from their passives, with few exceptions like Soul Summons. Where Vampire (and Werewolf) differ is that the requirement for those passives is slightly modified compared to most skill lines — Vampire's passives only work at a certain Stage threshold (requiring some degree of interaction with the Feed mechanic) while Werewolf's passives only work while transformed with the Ultimate Ability.

Should Vampire passives also require Vampire Active Abilities to be slotted and/or used, or is the interaction with the Stage system enough? Some Vampire abilities are actually used in PvE or PvP, so adding that requirement wouldn't change a thing for some players, while for others it might be too great of an opportunity cost to consider keeping. Each Stage lasts 4 real-world hours, so it's definitely not as strict of a requirement for passives as some passives have — it's easy to think of Vampire passives as just "free passives".

Erickson9610 · September 7

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

And I always say that the benefit of staying mortal is that you don't have to deal with the penalties of being a Werewolf or a Vampire. Why would people play Werewolf or even Vampire if they lose even more bonuses than they already do?

To spell out the penalties of each:
Vampire
Depending on your Stage, you get -10%/-30%/-60%/-100% Health Recovery, +5%/+8%/+13%/+20% Flame Damage taken, and +3%/+5%/+8%/+12% increased non-Vampire ability costs at all times.

You take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities at all times.

You can't interact with non-Assistant NPCs while at Stage 4 without the use of the Mesmerize skill.

You slowly decrease your Stage over time and must continually Feed if you wish to remain at higher Stages.

You are given a Vampire-themed Skin which changes depending on your Stage. If you like the look of your non-cursed form, you have to use some other Skin to get a glimpse of it back. Otherwise, your Body and Face Markings don't show up well with the Vampire Skins.

All of your Vampire abilities (except for Mesmerize) are Criminal Act abilities
You don't need to use them, but you are incentivized to use them with the reduction to their cost depending on your Stage.

Werewolf
You must slot the Ultimate to gain any passive bonuses in human form. The only accessible bonus is +15% Stamina Recovery, which in many cases is hardly worth taking up an Ultimate slot by itself.
You could also slot Roar or Hircine's Bounty for passive Major Savagery/Prophecy or Major Brutality/Sorcery, but you can't use those abilities in human form, so they'd only waste bar space while there are better alternatives available.

You must actually transform to gain any bonuses or penalties past the opportunity cost of slotting Werewolf Transformation on your human form bars.

While transformed, you lose access to all of your human form abilities (including all of your weapon passives and other passives which require human form abilities to be slotted or used). This alone is the largest downside of Werewolf — you can't swap in better abilities if Werewolf is in a bad spot balance-wise, you lack options for ranged or magicka damage dealing, and you have no ally heal ability. You can't restore Magicka (needed for your heal) with heavy attacks or abilities, and all of your abilities are Criminal Act abilities that are balanced to cost 25% more than similar non-Werewolf abilities. You also have no in-form Ultimate ability — attempting to use it just reverts your form.

While transformed, you take 25% extra Poison Damage and you take increased damage from Fighters Guild abilities.

While transformed, you can't sneak, bar swap, mount, or interact with things like Excavation dig sites, fishing spots, crafting stations, or non-Assistant NPCs. Some basic character functionality is inaccessible to Werewolves while transformed.

While transformed, you can't use certain Assistants like the crow merchant or banker, due to them requiring a unique animation for your player that Werewolves don't have. Hopefully you didn't spend Crowns on these Assistants hoping to use them while transformed.

While transformed, you have to manage a transformation timer, which can be difficult to maintain in some scenarios, particularly in dungeons, Cyrodiil, and the overworld.

Unlike non-cursed and Vampire characters, Werewolves have fewer ability and cosmetic options while transformed. While transformed, they cannot emote, and they have no animations for recalling and for using most Mementos. With the transformation timer, roleplaying in Werewolf form is a hassle — but at least you can use the Hunter's Glade player house or one of the three Werewolf shrines located in The Rift, Bangkorai, or Reaper's March to temporarily pause the timer while transformed there.

Non-cursed characters don't have to deal with any of the above. Why should we further disadvantage Werewolves and Vampires, just because non-cursed characters want to feel special for not having the advantages that these curses are given for putting up with these penalties?

Yea but vamps take less damage due to undeath, and at the extreme you take 15% less damge, which is means that you still take 3% LESS damage from the fire, and 5% LESS damage from fighters guild. WW is in its own playstyle, and if blessings would be implemented WW deserves a buff, while vamp as it is gives you free mitigation for no substential penalty whatsoever, and desrves a rework to be more simmilar to WW - requiring its own playstyle. OR for free stuff to be given to everybody that is not vamp.

I'd like to point out that at the maximum 15% mitigation, Vampires still take +13%/+20% increased Flame Damage at Stage 3/4. Non-Flame Damage is reduced by the full 15%.

So, relatively speaking, Stage 3 Vampires may take slightly less Flame Damage at the maximum Undeath value than a mortal would, but it's still the quickest way to burn them down.