PvP hp should be hard capped around 30-35k

Galeriano2 · April 4

Udrath wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

This is all from UPDATE 29:

Characters now also take 10% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system.

Characters now also start with 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage regardless of your level.

All characters have had their base Health increased to 16,000, up from 8744 and their Magicka and Stamina has increased to 12,000, up from 7958.

Also factor in the changes to armor passives during this update. This was really the patch that laid the ground work for all tank metas, as well the tank meta into what we have now. Update 29 was when they reworked CP.

ZOS could easily tweak this just tuning battle spirit - reduce the damage reduction, increase the healing reduction.

That said, 40 health + 7000 spell damage + 20K mag/stam is easily done and offers zero tradeoffs. Regen and passive sustain is so high now, tiny resource pools are never an issue.

Dw/ice staff build with 35k hp and 20k resources, let’s say 7k spell dmg on front bar and like 5k on back bar (where most people keep their heals).

Without update 29 update it’d be like

26-28k hp, 12-14k resource pools (depending class), and probably around 5.5k spell damage on the front bar and like 2-3k on the back. Personally I don’t think a lot of people can manage a build like that and the back bar heals would be pathetic. Minus 1k damage and 4000 resource is a giant hit on tooltips. That 1k is a lot considering all the scaling. 1k is like two nirnhoned 2h great swords with no scaling

Not entirely correct. Pre update 29 max hp, stam and mag bonuses were still present just located somwhere else. Battle spirit was giving everyone 5k HP and CPs were adding max resources passively for spending them up to a 300 CP treshold. ZOS just moved mentioned max stat bonuses into base game stats so now everyone everywhere have the same base stats. For CP PvP barely anything changed in terms of max stats. The only new thing that was added was 1k wep and spell dmg.

Udrath · April 5

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

This is all from UPDATE 29:

Characters now also take 10% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system.

Characters now also start with 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage regardless of your level.

All characters have had their base Health increased to 16,000, up from 8744 and their Magicka and Stamina has increased to 12,000, up from 7958.

Also factor in the changes to armor passives during this update. This was really the patch that laid the ground work for all tank metas, as well the tank meta into what we have now. Update 29 was when they reworked CP.

ZOS could easily tweak this just tuning battle spirit - reduce the damage reduction, increase the healing reduction.

That said, 40 health + 7000 spell damage + 20K mag/stam is easily done and offers zero tradeoffs. Regen and passive sustain is so high now, tiny resource pools are never an issue.

Dw/ice staff build with 35k hp and 20k resources, let’s say 7k spell dmg on front bar and like 5k on back bar (where most people keep their heals).

Without update 29 update it’d be like

26-28k hp, 12-14k resource pools (depending class), and probably around 5.5k spell damage on the front bar and like 2-3k on the back. Personally I don’t think a lot of people can manage a build like that and the back bar heals would be pathetic. Minus 1k damage and 4000 resource is a giant hit on tooltips. That 1k is a lot considering all the scaling. 1k is like two nirnhoned 2h great swords with no scaling

Not entirely correct. Pre update 29 max hp, stam and mag bonuses were still present just located somwhere else. Battle spirit was giving everyone 5k HP and CPs were adding max resources passively for spending them up to a 300 CP treshold. ZOS just moved mentioned max stat bonuses into base game stats so now everyone everywhere have the same base stats. For CP PvP barely anything changed in terms of max stats. The only new thing that was added was 1k wep and spell dmg.

I don’t remember any CP giving flat resources or percentage increases to stamina/magicka/health like we have in the current one, and the only I can think of was the lover tree that increased recovery by a percentage. I do remember the CP battle spirit health increase though.

HowlKimchi · April 5

Before, flanking siege lines with a small group was very effective in winning pirate ship battles. Tried doing it recently, but everyone on the siege line had 45+k hp, one was even 60k hp. Add the healers to the mix and it was impossible to break the siege line.

StaticWave · April 5

jaws343 wrote: »

Caps end up doing more harm than good. The crit damage cap is a great example of this. It was done to try to reduce crit damage stacking, and in turn reduce DPS. Instead, players used that new found "freedom" by hitting their crit cap, and then stacking other damage values, overall increasing DPS at the time.

The same would happen here. 30K health cap, would free CP slots or gear traits, or other values that players are relying on to increase health, and instead allow them to stack other defensive or offensive stats.

Once you have a cap, you have a target. Which ultimately stifles any kind of freedom of building within the system because you are almost forced to always hit that cap target if it is a reasonable number. And 30-35K is reasonable and pretty much anyone not hitting that cap would be crippling their ability to compete. And overall, it doesn't remove the actual problem of health stacking, because it just shifts the stack somewhere else. And then it is spell damage stack, stam stack, mag stack, impen stack, resistance stack, etc.

They will always stack other values. Any good theory crafter isn’t going to tunnel vision towards a specific cap value, but to get as high as possible without sacrificing other stats.

For example, a good build for general PvP imo should try to reach these stats:

- 30k HP
- 25k resistance back bar
- 2k crit resist
- 25k main resource
- 1.8k stam and mag regen
- 6k weapon damage
- 35% crit chance
- 100% crit dmg
- 18k pen

These stats are by no means hard to reach, and have been reached by most classes. I can run 2 axes and get 12% crit dmg, but lose 3.2k pen, or run 2 maces and get 3.2k pen, but lose 12% crit dmg. What should I pick? It all depends on whether I have reached a certain stat threshold or not. If I havent reached the 18k pen threshold, then why would I try to get max critical damage? Same logic applies for pretty much every other stat.

So to say putting a hard cap on HP is harmful is just flat out wrong. I personally run a 40k HP stamsorc with 25k stam, 18k pen before Balorgh, 6.4k WD, 110% crit dmg, 36% crit rate, 3.7k crit resist, and 27k resist back bar.

These stats are just massively inflated and add to the tank problem. I could drop down to 30k HP and get 35k stam, but why would I? I’ve already reached the offensive stat threshold to kill the majority of players I fight. There is no need to put more into damage when I could be super tanky and still have good damage.

An HP cap is long overdue now. When you fight groups you don’t see 35k HP players. You see 40-45k. Those guys are not only tanky, but they also have high damage from group set buffs. It’s aids to fight

Urzigurumash · April 5

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'm hesitant to battle Spirit blanket changes when there are outliers. I seem to recall putting shields in battle Spirit destroyed something like Templar blazing shield while the shield stacking issue remained until they health capped and limited stacking, as well as made them critable and count armor. All for them to just buff sorc shields again to be strong even after the extra nerfs while something like sun shield is now left double nerfed and dead.

Caps could have worked to begin with rather than stack nerfs

The Resistance Scaling and Crit Damage Taken on Damage Shields was done in 2018 I think, part of "Nerfmire"?

I recalled Blazing Shield builds got a direct nerf despite the fact that their time in the Sun may have resulted mostly from the briefly overpowered Constitution passive and then-new Varen's Legacy set we got at Dark Brotherhood. So I looked it up on UESP, looks like a direct nerf at Morrowind:

"Blazing Shield: Reduced the amount of damage done by this morph to 33/36/39/42% of the damage absorbed by the shield, down from 50/51/52/53%.
Developer Comments: Blazing Shield builds have proven to be extremely effective due to being able to stack Health to improve both their survivability and damage done. We've reduced the effectiveness of this ability so that there is more of an opportunity cost to having so much Health."

TechMaybeHic · April 5

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'm hesitant to battle Spirit blanket changes when there are outliers. I seem to recall putting shields in battle Spirit destroyed something like Templar blazing shield while the shield stacking issue remained until they health capped and limited stacking, as well as made them critable and count armor. All for them to just buff sorc shields again to be strong even after the extra nerfs while something like sun shield is now left double nerfed and dead.

Caps could have worked to begin with rather than stack nerfs

The Resistance Scaling and Crit Damage Taken on Damage Shields was done in 2018 I think, part of "Nerfmire"?

I recalled Blazing Shield builds got a direct nerf despite the fact that their time in the Sun may have resulted mostly from the briefly overpowered Constitution passive and then-new Varen's Legacy set we got at Dark Brotherhood. So I looked it up on UESP, looks like a direct nerf at Morrowind:

"Blazing Shield: Reduced the amount of damage done by this morph to 33/36/39/42% of the damage absorbed by the shield, down from 50/51/52/53%.
Developer Comments: Blazing Shield builds have proven to be extremely effective due to being able to stack Health to improve both their survivability and damage done. We've reduced the effectiveness of this ability so that there is more of an opportunity cost to having so much Health."

That was probably more nail in the coffin when some templars were stacking massive health and were 1 trick ponies. Long before that; it was more just added defense to templars in general builds when soft caps were a thing.

Thus is when it really dropped off

"The Battle Spirit buff has been adjusted and now has 30% more damage reduction, 35% less healing received, and 50% less damage shield strength."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200571/pts-patch-notes-v2-1

Urzigurumash · April 5

Interesting, I think that may have been the very first patch post-Launch for Xbox. 1 trick pony stacking HP with Varens. That's how I recall Blazeplar for sure and also Sap Tank.

So @TechMaybeHic you say HP Cap better than Battlespirit Modification to help lessen the Tank Meta?

Urzigurumash · April 5

Point taken about Outliers and Polar Wind here.

But an all High MMR DM on Xbox NA is very likely to result in a stalemate these days and nobody in this crowd in stacking even 35k HP I don't think.

We're slow adoptors of meta changes but, certainly we've never been tankier.

StarOfElyon · April 5

katorga wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

This is all from UPDATE 29:

Characters now also take 10% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system.

Characters now also start with 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage regardless of your level.

All characters have had their base Health increased to 16,000, up from 8744 and their Magicka and Stamina has increased to 12,000, up from 7958.

Also factor in the changes to armor passives during this update. This was really the patch that laid the ground work for all tank metas, as well the tank meta into what we have now. Update 29 was when they reworked CP.

ZOS could easily tweak this just tuning battle spirit - reduce the damage reduction, increase the healing reduction.

That said, 40 health + 7000 spell damage + 20K mag/stam is easily done and offers zero tradeoffs. Regen and passive sustain is so high now, tiny resource pools are never an issue.

I typically have just around 30k health and I get 100 to 0'd before I can even blink an eye in battlegrounds. Even in Pariah. Maybe if I wore proc healing sets I could give myself a chance to survive getting stunned but I prefer to play without proc sets. Anyway, your proposal would just be the nail in the coffin of stat-based builds. It's already on life support.

Urzigurumash · April 5

StarOfElyon wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

This is all from UPDATE 29:

Characters now also take 10% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system.

Characters now also start with 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage regardless of your level.

All characters have had their base Health increased to 16,000, up from 8744 and their Magicka and Stamina has increased to 12,000, up from 7958.

Also factor in the changes to armor passives during this update. This was really the patch that laid the ground work for all tank metas, as well the tank meta into what we have now. Update 29 was when they reworked CP.

ZOS could easily tweak this just tuning battle spirit - reduce the damage reduction, increase the healing reduction.

That said, 40 health + 7000 spell damage + 20K mag/stam is easily done and offers zero tradeoffs. Regen and passive sustain is so high now, tiny resource pools are never an issue.

I typically have just around 30k health and I get 100 to 0'd before I can even blink an eye in battlegrounds. Even in Pariah. Maybe if I wore proc healing sets I could give myself a chance to survive getting stunned but I prefer to play without proc sets. Anyway, your proposal would just be the nail in the coffin of stat-based builds. It's already on life support.

Exactly why I support a massive reduction of both healing and damage in Battlespirit, like 90%. As soon as you go without OP crosshealing and defensive procs you're instagibbed, but with it matches stalemate with everyone getting 2.5m heals.

Circa 2018 2019, 2.5m healing was unheard of as I recall.

StaticWave · April 5

Lots of good points brought up in this thread, and it sounds like multiple things need to be addressed simultaneously, such as:

- Capping HP
- Lowering damage
- Lowering healing
- Lowering damage mitigation

Quite frankly, this was how the game used to be before CP 2.0 update. Maybe it’s time to go back before that?

Galeriano2 · April 5

Udrath wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

This is all from UPDATE 29:

Characters now also take 10% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system.

Characters now also start with 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage regardless of your level.

All characters have had their base Health increased to 16,000, up from 8744 and their Magicka and Stamina has increased to 12,000, up from 7958.

Also factor in the changes to armor passives during this update. This was really the patch that laid the ground work for all tank metas, as well the tank meta into what we have now. Update 29 was when they reworked CP.

ZOS could easily tweak this just tuning battle spirit - reduce the damage reduction, increase the healing reduction.

That said, 40 health + 7000 spell damage + 20K mag/stam is easily done and offers zero tradeoffs. Regen and passive sustain is so high now, tiny resource pools are never an issue.

Dw/ice staff build with 35k hp and 20k resources, let’s say 7k spell dmg on front bar and like 5k on back bar (where most people keep their heals).

Without update 29 update it’d be like

26-28k hp, 12-14k resource pools (depending class), and probably around 5.5k spell damage on the front bar and like 2-3k on the back. Personally I don’t think a lot of people can manage a build like that and the back bar heals would be pathetic. Minus 1k damage and 4000 resource is a giant hit on tooltips. That 1k is a lot considering all the scaling. 1k is like two nirnhoned 2h great swords with no scaling

Not entirely correct. Pre update 29 max hp, stam and mag bonuses were still present just located somwhere else. Battle spirit was giving everyone 5k HP and CPs were adding max resources passively for spending them up to a 300 CP treshold. ZOS just moved mentioned max stat bonuses into base game stats so now everyone everywhere have the same base stats. For CP PvP barely anything changed in terms of max stats. The only new thing that was added was 1k wep and spell dmg.

I don’t remember any CP giving flat resources or percentage increases to stamina/magicka/health like we have in the current one, and the only I can think of was the lover tree that increased recovery by a percentage. I do remember the CP battle spirit health increase though.

I wasn't talking about CP perks. In old CP system You were getting small percentage increase to max hp, mag or stam passively just for spending CP points no matter what perks You've spend them on. In last version before CP 2.0 first 100 CPs in red constelations was giving You max HP for each CP spend and same goes for green constelations with max stam and blue with max mag. When You reached 300 CPs and You've spend them all into any perks You liked Your resources were maxed out and at that point all stats had +20% value added to them passively just for having 100 CPs spend in each constelation.

With CP 2.0 ZoS got rid of that mechanic and they just shifted additional max resources into base stats so everyone could benefit from them right away. So for CP PvP not much have changed, additional resources were always there. What changed is that now we have more max HP in PvE due to battle spirit HP being universally added and we also have more max stats in no CP PvP due to mentioned above CP max stat buffs being universally added.

Galeriano2 · April 5

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

If we're capping max health at 35k then the scaling on Hardened Ward needs to be capped at 35k max magicka as well.

To be honest that sounds like an overkill and makes one ability covered with too many restrictions. At that point it would have percentage healt cap, flat value health cap, flat value magicka cap and scalig limited to either max mag or max hp which is already limiting build options.

xylena_lazarow · April 5

But I like being able to stand in stupid and not be punished for it! /s

StaticWave · April 5

Jsmalls wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

If we're capping max health at 35k then the scaling on Hardened Ward needs to be capped at 35k max magicka as well.

Or you could Cap Total Health Plus Ward to the mentioned 35k. This would hurt the proactive side of the skill while not really effecting the current reactive capabilities of the ability. And it would be more in line with Templar passives and DragonBlood etc.

@StaticWave @xylena_lazarow
That might actually be a fair balance to the shield as currently it's really strong Proactively AND Reactively.

Also 100% on board with a Max Health Cap of 35k. Also fix HoT stacking from multiple sources.

I agree. On my shield build I’m hovering between 37k HP and 40k. Ward size is around 9k-10k before Major Vitality. Lowering the shield size to 35k of either mag or hp would be a very balanced approach as Sorcs still retain the tankiness from stacking HoTs and new Hardened Ward, but aren’t amping Ward to a super high value.

Sluggy · April 5

Udrath wrote: »

This is all from UPDATE 29:

Characters now also take 10% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system.

Characters now also start with 1000 Weapon and Spell Damage regardless of your level.

All characters have had their base Health increased to 16,000, up from 8744 and their Magicka and Stamina has increased to 12,000, up from 7958.

Also factor in the changes to armor passives during this update. This was really the patch that laid the ground work for all tank metas, as well the tank meta into what we have now. Update 29 was when they reworked CP.

Quoted for truth and emphasis.

Vaqual · April 5

I have said it before but I will repeat it here again: I think a health cap is a naive fix to combat a symptom, but not the cause of the issue.

Lets look at the reasons for health stacking to begin with:

1. Increase to TTK: A player wants his eHP to exceed the average burst spike that is to be expected from gankers or multiple weaker players to give himself enough of wiggle room to actually be able to play the game. Nobody is running around in a state of maximum alertness 24/7 because "not holding block and getting hit from stealth is a git gud issue". If a player dies without meaningful participation in the fight he might as well have stayed in the base. For certain people this kind of shooter-game feel to PvP might be appealing, but it invalidates many playstyles, whereas the narrowed pallette of options might not appeal to many other players. Players are not leaving the base for others to have their "streamer-moments".

2.Opportunity and min-maxed Builds: As mentioned before by Static, for some players it is simply efficient or opportune to invest in HP after hitting other thresholds. But then what is really the issue? The most meta builds that are able to hit all thresholds on one ass cheek while allowing for branching into HP, or the max HP builds itself? ESO's main appeal to me is the build crafting and character customization and I get incredibly bored fighting against the same overloaded garbage over and over. People building single target optimized semi-tanky bruisers with disengage option can not realistically believe they deserve a monopoly on having a decent time in PvP. If a player builds tanky and meets another player, whos entire kill plan is based on an ult-dump burst, it is 100% legitimate that they would reach a stalemate. The PvP build simply doesn't deserve to beat everyone all the time. There is no cosmic rule that everyone has to die to a balorgh dawnbreaker. Just move on.

3.Synergy: Reducing max. HP while keeping everything else the same is a onesided buff to burst and nerf to all HP synergies. Burst is not the remedy, it is the reason for building high HP in the first place. This would make the game annyoing, nothing else. All classes with abilities that scale with health or give % increases to HP would be scammed out of their returns. Wardens get 10 % from minor toughness and a HP scaling heal. Why wouldn't they build for HP in that case? How can building for a burst-and-turtle-run-of-the-mill 30k HP 6k WD etc. build be acceptable while another class with built-in HP mods has to justifiy their meta loadouts? I think you might see now where this is going. Some of you have a subjective idea of what makes the game fun and what makes it good. But every playstyle deserves a counter, even yours. The same frustration you feel when stalemating for the 3rd time in a row is what the people, who are refusing to run your builds, feel after getting one-tapped for the 3rd time in a row.

4. RP: No explanation needed.

Now so much about the motivations for running high HP. Now I will admit, that there are obnoxiously tanky players. The survivability goes far beyond "living to play out the engagement", close to immortality. But is max HP the reason for it? It might enable some wiggle room for these types of players, but it is very clearly not the main problem. The main issue in many cases is scaling defenses. HP is a linear increase to your staying power. Mitigations act as a multiplier on your HP, where high % mitigation or damage avoidance can exceed the value of several thousands of extra flat HP. Now without assigning a value to these things we likely have an idea of what level of tankiness is OP (when the player can still kill us) and when it is somehow fine again (when it is a troll tank). So lets look at the strongest available defenses , that can easily brought in a build that packs a punch:

1. Rolling with cost reduction: Being in medium with survival instincts and well fitted offers such a drastic boost to survivability against single target direct damage (the best burst scaling damage type) that you become near invulnerable to it. Luckily this is countered by still being susceptible to DoTs and AoE. Or is it? Running high mobility (and/or snare removal) on a roller makes it near impossible to land AoEs reliably to pressure through a roll phase. DoTs from abilities are at an all time low in terms of performance and many still need to connect on application before actually being able to chip away at the roller.
And then there is Lefthanders, which basically sacrifices the infinity scaling of roll against single target direct and trades it for god-tier HPS worth of shielding. Phantasmal escape is just the cherry on top really. And don't delude yourself into thinking rolling is the high skill play and running high HP is brain-rot tier. There is nothing to spamming roll when you are about to get got.

2. Blocking with Shields/Frost-Staff: Blocking offers great mitigation for a short time until you are supposed to be resource-checked. Shields immediately exacerbate this by adding additional mitigation and a cost reduction. Running this with Survival Instincts gives you an almost sustainable invuln button. But luckily shields and Frost-Staves are balanced because they don't deal so much damage right. On one bar at least? ...Ah yeah crap, wrong again. Frost-staff is meta even for some DPS builds and gives you access to a secondary block resource. And turtling on shield on your backbar is no better than being a tanky player to begin with. Only because your opponent doesn't have a cool burst combo on his front bar and instead 5k HP more, it doesn't mean that somehow your PvP build is cool and skillful and the other guy runs a lame tank build. In many situations a shield offers almost infinitely more survivability than a 5k max HP difference. To the point where you don't even feel the max HP.

3. High HPS: As long as healing scales off offensive stats, this is going to be the #1 contributor to ESO's f-ed up turtle&burst PvP. You need to rely on burst and high mitigation/avoidance gameplay, simply because both players are permnanently at max HP. DoTs being weaker and pressure being slow wouldn't be a problem, if HPS wouldn't absolutely overcompensate. If enemies could realistically be "softened up" max HP wouldn't be so much of an issue and the emphasis on maximum burst strength wouldn't be so huge. Stacking multiple healing sources and chip-healing should be a valid playstyle, but the amount of healing from vigour+burst heal on most classes alone makes it so that you basically need to plan for a full HP burst. It is hard to take concerns about "overpowered HP scaling heals" seriously, considering any DPS build can heal to full in only a few GCDs. Nevertheless I agree, Warden heals are beyond broken and something that should have been fixed only days after going to PTS. But is it problem of max HP or a problem of the scaling on the ability? Yes, correct. It has nothing to do with max HP.

4. Undeath: This is the only thing I will accept as truly OP in conjunction with high HP. Is this the fault of high HP? No it isn't. Just fix the thing.

"But none of this doesnt change the fact I can't burst 'em." If the community is unable to figure out what exactly makes the game unfun to play and what the root causes are for the issues, we need to rely on ZOS to "improve" things on their own. Do you want that? Am I giving a consctructive suggestion how to fix the situation? No. Why did I write this wall of text then? Because I think suggestions like a HP cap are absolutely mental and to see all this agreement is almost mind-boggling. This is such a poor and dishonest way of looking at defensive gameplay and to me most of the thread reads like this "I like my defensive options to be strong, but yours are a bit too much. Maybe they could make it so that I can burst you regardless". Most mega-tanky players are tanky because they utilize all of this, not just one element. And these do not contribute evenly and max HP is not even close to being to main problem.

Edited for typos.

xylena_lazarow · April 5

Vaqual wrote: »

I like my defensive options to be strong, but yours are a bit too much. Maybe they could make it so that I can burst you regardless

I like my defensive options to be active and require skill. Roll, block, heal, LoS, positioning, etc.

HP is passive. Stacking it enables you to passively stand in stupid doing nothing and not be punished. Years of crying over "dumbing the game down" and "carried by xyz" yet hard to imagine anything dumber or more of a carry than high hp builds that let you make the dumbest mistakes imaginable and still recover against the highest damage builds buildable.

Then when you have organized groups with 40k+ hp across the board, they can't be pressured through their passive HoT stacks, they can't be bombed now either, what do you do? That's right, you zerg. The best counter is zerging.

TechMaybeHic · April 5

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Interesting, I think that may have been the very first patch post-Launch for Xbox. 1 trick pony stacking HP with Varens. That's how I recall Blazeplar for sure and also Sap Tank.

So @TechMaybeHic you say HP Cap better than Battlespirit Modification to help lessen the Tank Meta?

It just has to be thought through. There are obviously PvE sides of things to where battlespirit makes sense. But even in PvP there is nothing wrong with having a tank. Being able to do damage or heal others with a massive heal from health stacking should not be a thing though. Then it's no longer an argument that it's for tanks as it makes them also a group healer

Chilly-McFreeze · April 5

StaticWave wrote: »

I personally run a 40k HP stamsorc with 25k stam, 18k pen before Balorgh, 6.4k WD, 110% crit dmg, 36% crit rate, 3.7k crit resist, and 27k resist back bar.

May I ask for your build, please? Still trying to get back after a long hiatus and struggling a bit on the procless build.

moo_2021 · April 5

I'd just stack shields if they cap HP.

buzzclops · April 6

I agree. 100%

JustLovely · April 6

Blanket solutions like this proposal never seem to work out fairly. Seems a better solution is for ZOS to hire back some of the devs that created the combat system and restore some balance, or at least closer to balance, into the PvP environment.

Heals_With_Orbs · April 6

There doesn't seem to be any logic or common sense to this game anymore, and yet there's plenty of suggestions on the forums to remedy the many issues. Why is that so hard to address and sort out?

In PvP we are seeing a multitude of problems that can be fixed only if ZOS are willing to listen to the community, and what is wrong with that? We are paying customers, who have bought a product.

It's simple, if people are prepared to pay for DLC's and Chapters to get the latest BIS / Meta gear, then great, let them do it, benefit from that, and let ZOS earn the money, but for the rest of us who don't a very bare minimum is to remove the things that are making PvP dull, boring and frustrating. Ball groups, Undeath passive and chunks of metal that have 45K HP have no place in a fair PvP environment.

Cap the HP to 30-35K as suggested and cap shields, and make PvP partially about skill, partially about the gear, build selections and make classes actually mean something. If someone is more skilled than myself, which isn't too hard, I expect to get flattened - how many players in ESO are not very good but are being carried by broken sets and unbalanced game design? Too many.

If you want to be a Tank fine, but you should sacrifice doing damage as a consequence, and likewise if you want to be a glass cannon, then you do that at your own risk of being squishy.

Something needs to change, because things are stale and there's nothing to lose with trying a new approach - it can't be any worse than it is currently.

moo_2021 · April 6

Cap would be the wrong fix.

Someone suggested the simple scaling effects before:

- scale cost of break free and dodge off max health
- scale healing off max magicka or stamina, depending on skill
- scale any damage off weapon and spell damage
- scale shield to max health?

and I'd add reduce the base damage of all skills and proc sets, perhaps cut in half, and double the scaling effect. Also increase the penalty and bonus of armors. Perhaps also scale block cost off resistance?

That'd make tank, healer and dd quite distinct from each other and any attempt to build for 2 or 3 would cost a lot.

pokrakus · April 7

Thank you. Make HP cap at 30 k plz so I will have more targets. NB main here

Urzigurumash · April 8

pokrakus wrote: »

Thank you. Make HP cap at 30 k plz so I will have more targets. NB main here

Yeah every comment about "Tank Meta" issues should have its author clarify whether they're part of the Good Little Boys and Girls (NB and Sorc mains) or the Naughty Dum-Dums (DK and Plar mains)

Metemsycosis · April 8

Imo the tanky meta is a result of all classes besides necro being equally good at all things simultaneously, aside from anyone with streak or invisibility.

What's boring isn't tankiness but rather homogenization. You never have to make a sacrifice or compromise in the build process, so there are no meaningful choices, only meta and non meta choices.

edward_frigidhands · April 8

pokrakus wrote: »

Thank you. Make HP cap at 30 k plz so I will have more targets. NB main here

This is kind of what a lot of this sounds like to me:

"Please cap health at 30k so that my DPS main can destroy people 1vX/1v1. This is required for PvP even though PvP in an MMORPG is balanced around group vs group play rather than niche 1v1 or 1vX engagements.

It doesn't matter to me that less people will get to play the game the way they want. I am looking forward to my reign of terror on people that don't play the game my way.

Please make these drastic changes and institute many caps on essential player stats. I don't care how this affects other people's gameplay experience or the health of the game."

edward_frigidhands · April 8

Vaqual wrote: »

1. Increase to TTK: A player wants his eHP to exceed the average burst spike that is to be expected from gankers or multiple weaker players to give himself enough of wiggle room to actually be able to play the game. Nobody is running around in a state of maximum alertness 24/7 because "not holding block and getting hit from stealth is a git gud issue". If a player dies without meaningful participation in the fight he might as well have stayed in the base. For certain people this kind of shooter-game feel to PvP might be appealing, but it invalidates many playstyles, whereas the narrowed pallette of options might not appeal to many other players. Players are not leaving the base for others to have their "streamer-moments".

2.Opportunity and min-maxed Builds: As mentioned before by Static, for some players it is simply efficient or opportune to invest in HP after hitting other thresholds. But then what is really the issue? The most meta builds that are able to hit all thresholds on one ass cheek while allowing for branching into HP, or the max HP builds itself? ESO's main appeal to me is the build crafting and character customization and I get incredibly bored fighting against the same overloaded garbage over and over. People building single target optimized semi-tanky bruisers with disengage option can not realistically believe they deserve a monopoly on having a decent time in PvP. If a player builds tanky and meets another player, whos entire kill plan is based on an ult-dump burst, it is 100% legitimate that they would reach a stalemate. The PvP build simply doesn't deserve to beat everyone all the time. There is no cosmic rule that everyone has to die to a balorgh dawnbreaker. Just move on.

3.Synergy: Reducing max. HP while keeping everything else the same is a onesided buff to burst and nerf to all HP synergies. Burst is not the remedy, it is the reason for building high HP in the first place. This would make the game annyoing, nothing else. All classes with abilities that scale with health or give % increases to HP would be scammed out of their returns. Wardens get 10 % from minor toughness and a HP scaling heal. Why wouldn't they build for HP in that case? How can building for a burst-and-turtle-run-of-the-mill 30k HP 6k WD etc. build be acceptable while another class with built-in HP mods has to justifiy their meta loadouts? I think you might see now where this is going. Some of you have a subjective idea of what makes the game fun and what makes it good. But every playstyle deserves a counter, even yours. The same frustration you feel when stalemating for the 3rd time in a row is what the people, who are refusing to run your builds, feel after getting one-tapped for the 3rd time in a row.

.

A lot of great in points in this post, in particular this part.