PvP hp should be hard capped around 30-35k

moo_2021

Sporigudinai wrote: »

Can you be a tank with 35k HP?

M sorc has 30k HP + 14k+13k+10k shield = 67k.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Ok. Mag and stam capped at 25k

shield scaled off mag is the only issue I can see.

Beffagorn

This has always been the problem with the "tank meta". It was never about tanks, it was always about the overabundance of burst damage that made lower end players gravitate towards survival because the high end players go around three tapping people left and right.

Like, idk what else I should invest in except for HP on my magsorc or NB if I can just go around deleting half the playerbase as is with minimal investment of damage and sustain.

DrSlaughtr

My experience on Xbox, having only recently returned to the game from about a 2 year break (giving me a little different perspective), it's a little annoying that 5 tanks can roll through the map until 20+ show up to outperform their mitigation. But until that many people show up, they just focus one by one without ever being threatened. With lower numbers on xb, this can quickly turn into 5 characters emping and squatting the map.

Having said that, they aren't invisible. And get enough people together working in concert, they can be defeated.

The bigger issue I see are the 55k-60k healers that literally cannot be killed until you get 20+ stacking on that one player, which is a little absurd. And if one of those are in a group, good luck killing any of them. I haven't healed PVP in a long time, but back then you couldn't stack that much health and still successfully heal people. But apparently now you can.

As for what to do about it, I dunno. A long time ago I suggested making damage and mitigation two sides of a scale. The more you stack in one, the less effective you are in the other. But that is a complicated response and they will never do something like that.

They've been on this tank-focused playstyle for what, 3 years now? It's obviously what they prefer. It probably keeps the complaints down because ultimately, all the people who play this way, are allergic to dying.

xylena_lazarow

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

The bigger issue I see are the 55k-60k healers

Hooray someone gets it!

Capping hp won't nerf tanks because you can build armor and DR. It only nerfs 40k hp dps and 55k hp healers.

Urzigurumash

Beffagorn wrote: »

This has always been the problem with the "tank meta". It was never about tanks, it was always about the overabundance of burst damage that made lower end players gravitate towards survival because the high end players go around three tapping people left and right.

Like, idk what else I should invest in except for HP on my magsorc or NB if I can just go around deleting half the playerbase as is with minimal investment of damage and sustain.

So which are you then, the Low End Player stacking HP to survive, or the High End Player, stacking... HP.. because why again?

Urzigurumash

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

The bigger issue I see are the 55k-60k healers

Hooray someone gets it!

Capping hp won't nerf tanks because you can build armor and DR. It only nerfs 40k hp dps and 55k hp healers.

K what about all the HP scaled procs. "I hate them so I don't care". K but how the Devs feel bout em?

Urzigurumash

@Beffagorn To be clear I agree with your first paragraph 100%. Raising damage CAN extend TTK in some cases.

Your second point is what exactly?

DrSlaughtr

Let's just increase oblivion damage a bit and buff Hrothgar a lil bit and see where that goes.

notyuu

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Let's just increase oblivion damage a bit and buff Hrothgar a lil bit and see where that goes.

What about oblivion damage Hrothgar?

Caecus0

No. I'm sorry but I hard disagree with the OP.

Bear in mind, I HATE the meta being as tanky as it is. No one dies and fights are stale. Being a pure DPS is more fun, but can also be more frustrating fighting anyone who decided to run a tanky meta build.

Despite this, hard capping health (or even soft-capping it) is not the answer. The issue isn't that people have too much health. The issue is that people have a lot of health and are still able to dish out enough damage to be a threat and heal themselves to the point of near-invincibility.

The simplest answer would be to make it so that investing into that level of Health actually feels like a sacrifice. Re-balancing abilities that scale off of health (like the Warden Heal) would also be worth looking into. As it stands, health is easy to grab and not that much of a sacrifice to get. Don't get me wrong, there IS a sacrifice. That sacrifice just isn't big. It makes grabbing health the most efficient option at times.

But one of the best things about this game is the creativity of builds people can go with. I do not think telling people "no" is a good idea. Rather, we should answer with "You CAN do this, but be aware you will give something up if you DO."

HowlKimchi

I fought a 3 man group with a warden healer with 45k hp. Usually targeting the healer first is the logical decision to start dismantling the group. It was impossible though. He was the tankiest in his group. So i tried going for the nightblade with 28k hp. The problem was, if I didnt 100 to 0 the nightblade within like 2 GCDs, the healer was able to heal him to full very quickly. The other person was a sorc with the usual hardened ward and streak shenanigans.

After 15 minutes of them trying to kill me, and me trying to kill the nightblade, I just sorta gave up and just tried walking away. They wouldn't let me though and they chased me all the way to the front of the keep. So other people from my faction saw them and they ended up getting zerged. The warden healer then messaged me and called me a *** and a zergling for running away to the zerg.

The nightblade and the sorcs builds were manageable. Sure they had cloak and streak and the burst heals, but there was a way to kill them. It was the 45k hp warden healer who made that fight impossible.

A build with that high hp shouldn't be able to output that much healing to himself and his group.

Necrotech_Master

notyuu wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Let's just increase oblivion damage a bit and buff Hrothgar a lil bit and see where that goes.

What about oblivion damage Hrothgar?

hrothgar, while its typed as frost dmg, still ignores resistances

however as far as im aware because its not true oblivion dmg it can still be reduced by flat mitigations (major/minor protection, undeath, etc)

Zama666

What next "PvP damage should be hard capped around 30-35k"?

xylena_lazarow

Zama666 wrote: »

What next "PvP damage should be hard capped around 30-35k"?

I mean, do we really need 40k stealth inferno heavies back?

This PvP is at its best when players damage and heal more gradually, like when we had 24k max hp and you'd rarely get bursted (or burst heal yourself) for more than 6-8k in a single skill. These days there's too much of everything, which leads to volatile swingy gameplay where either it's a nothing stalemate or a sudden one-sided wipe.

I'm not attached to the example in my op, I don't like arguing over player proposed solutions, thought it would be a good way to get players talking about inflated max hp pools. Reiterating, dedicated tank builds aren't the problem, were never the problem. Do we at least agree that viable 45k hp damage dealers and 55k hp healers are ridiculous?

kurbbie_s

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

And that brings us back to the soft caps. It was so much better back in the days.

For that matter, Sorc's broken healy shield would probably be fine too if max stats were soft capped.

it was the same back then also they just used 2 shields instead of 1.

kurbbie_s

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Ok, so do you still think a cap would be the best solution ?

Short of a massive stat squish or global soft cap rework, yeah it's good enough. Nothing of value would be lost.

I agree this is an easy argument to make, but i also attribute some of the Era of DK Domination to the nerf to HP Regen engendering a universal 13% Flame Damage Taken penalty by removing HP Regen as the counterbalance to Undeath.

There's so many variables to building. Why NOT just mess with Battlespirit? Like does anybody think the current values are ideal?

Because for sure being able to build your character however you want is a popular ideal.

OR, imclude new skills with the scribing system to create skills for your build to handle the undead /werewolves.

kurbbie_s

jaws343 wrote: »

Caps end up doing more harm than good. The crit damage cap is a great example of this. It was done to try to reduce crit damage stacking, and in turn reduce DPS. Instead, players used that new found "freedom" by hitting their crit cap, and then stacking other damage values, overall increasing DPS at the time.

The same would happen here. 30K health cap, would free CP slots or gear traits, or other values that players are relying on to increase health, and instead allow them to stack other defensive or offensive stats.

Once you have a cap, you have a target. Which ultimately stifles any kind of freedom of building within the system because you are almost forced to always hit that cap target if it is a reasonable number. And 30-35K is reasonable and pretty much anyone not hitting that cap would be crippling their ability to compete. And overall, it doesn't remove the actual problem of health stacking, because it just shifts the stack somewhere else. And then it is spell damage stack, stam stack, mag stack, impen stack, resistance stack, etc.

incorrect. If everything had hard caps, diminishing returns, and we didnt have infinite CP then players would have to specialize. Therefore creating a class or bare with me. A build of their own.

Sorry for multiple posts, i cant edit for some reason in my browser

jaws343

kurbbie_s wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Caps end up doing more harm than good. The crit damage cap is a great example of this. It was done to try to reduce crit damage stacking, and in turn reduce DPS. Instead, players used that new found "freedom" by hitting their crit cap, and then stacking other damage values, overall increasing DPS at the time.

The same would happen here. 30K health cap, would free CP slots or gear traits, or other values that players are relying on to increase health, and instead allow them to stack other defensive or offensive stats.

Once you have a cap, you have a target. Which ultimately stifles any kind of freedom of building within the system because you are almost forced to always hit that cap target if it is a reasonable number. And 30-35K is reasonable and pretty much anyone not hitting that cap would be crippling their ability to compete. And overall, it doesn't remove the actual problem of health stacking, because it just shifts the stack somewhere else. And then it is spell damage stack, stam stack, mag stack, impen stack, resistance stack, etc.

incorrect. If everything had hard caps, diminishing returns, and we didnt have infinite CP then players would have to specialize. Therefore creating a class or bare with me. A build of their own.

Sorry for multiple posts, i cant edit for some reason in my browser

We don't have infinite CP. In fact, CP has a hard cap at a point where earning any more is effectively useless.