PvP hp should be hard capped around 30-35k

pokrakus

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

pokrakus wrote: »

Thank you. Make HP cap at 30 k plz so I will have more targets. NB main here

This is kind of what a lot of this sounds like to me:

"Please cap health at 30k so that my DPS main can destroy people 1vX/1v1. This is required for PvP even though PvP in an MMORPG is balanced around group vs group play rather than niche 1v1 or 1vX engagements.

It doesn't matter to me that less people will get to play the game the way they want. I am looking forward to my reign of terror on people that don't play the game my way.

Please make these drastic changes and institute many caps on essential player stats. I don't care how this affects other people's gameplay experience or the health of the game."

LOL looks like u take it seriously
In my personal opinion making HP cap is wrong and unnecessary. What is wrong that some one has 50k HP and is almost immortal? I don't mind that at all. It would lower builds diversity.

xylena_lazarow

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Please make these drastic changes and institute many caps on essential player stats. I don't care how this affects other people's gameplay experience or the health of the game.

The tankiest player I've ever run with would do it on a 30k hp Temp built for block mitigation. The goal isn't to nerf tanks (it really wouldn't), it's to nerf the 40k hp damage dealers and 55k hp healers.

What exactly does one need more than 35k hp for anyway? Standing in stupid isn't a playstyle. A lot of the people who dislike my idea are the same voices who complain about "unkillable" ball groups.

Jsmalls

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

pokrakus wrote: »

Thank you. Make HP cap at 30 k plz so I will have more targets. NB main here

This is kind of what a lot of this sounds like to me:

"Please cap health at 30k so that my DPS main can destroy people 1vX/1v1. This is required for PvP even though PvP in an MMORPG is balanced around group vs group play rather than niche 1v1 or 1vX engagements.

It doesn't matter to me that less people will get to play the game the way they want. I am looking forward to my reign of terror on people that don't play the game my way.

Please make these drastic changes and institute many caps on essential player stats. I don't care how this affects other people's gameplay experience or the health of the game."

Have you been apart of your ideal "group" and have had to go against other groups that stacked 40-45k health as a minimum? It's boring. It's really boring. Generally you aren't pressure DPSing through an individual with 1-2 dedicated healers on top of whatever healing they have (if it isn't a broken heal stack group with 12 instances of vigor and regen). So you're left with 100-0ing that player. You know what it takes to 100-0 someone with 45k health that has passive healing? You got a couple options.

1. Rush of agony, Negate, and Ulti dump the group.
2. Dark Convergence, Negate, and Ulti dump the group.
3. Necro pull, Negate, Ulti dump the group.
Get lucky and have a meatbag / cold fire hit a mobile group at the same time you do Numbers 1, 2, 3.

It's extremely stale. And probably the most aggravating thing to play against. And the only counter that exists is the ones mentioned above. Or just out numbering them 2/3:1.

You drop that ball groups health down to 30k and they still become difficult to kill, but possible to 100-0 them with less full group dedication and less Pull, Negate, Ulti dump utilization (because you can actually widdle down the group one by one).

So if we aren't going to address the elephants in the room (HoT stacking and Perma Block Tank Healers). Then why not take a look at other solutions.

Reginald_leBlem

You leave me and my 52k health warden alone

xylena_lazarow

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

You leave me and my 52k health warden alone

What do you need 52k hp for? Polar Wind? Yea that skill needs to be deleted if we don't cap HP.

Capping HP in PvP zones would mean no effect on PvE, no skills nerfed, nothing of value lost.

edward_frigidhands

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Capping HP in PvP zones would mean no effect on PvE, no skills nerfed, nothing of value lost.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

What exactly does one need more than 35k hp for anyway? Standing in stupid isn't a playstyle.

I don't really think it is for you to decide what is or isn't a valid playstyle or build in a game that by design encourages build variety and the ability to design the character you want and play the way you would like it to.

PvP is not exempt from this vision of the game's design goal.

xylena_lazarow

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I don't really think it is for you to decide what is or isn't a valid playstyle or build in a game that by design encourages build variety and the ability to design the character you want and play the way you would like it to. PvP is not exempt from this vision of the game's design goal.

You didn't answer me. What do you need more than 35k hp for?

I recognize your name as a tank player, and I assure you that pure tanks would not be nerfed under this proposal, you can still build a very tanky tank with 35k and stacking block mitigation. If anything, you should support it, because your role as a pure tank is heavily devalued when damage dealers and healers are viably running 40k+ hp.

edward_frigidhands

Jsmalls wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

pokrakus wrote: »

Thank you. Make HP cap at 30 k plz so I will have more targets. NB main here

This is kind of what a lot of this sounds like to me:

"Please cap health at 30k so that my DPS main can destroy people 1vX/1v1. This is required for PvP even though PvP in an MMORPG is balanced around group vs group play rather than niche 1v1 or 1vX engagements.

It doesn't matter to me that less people will get to play the game the way they want. I am looking forward to my reign of terror on people that don't play the game my way.

Please make these drastic changes and institute many caps on essential player stats. I don't care how this affects other people's gameplay experience or the health of the game."

Have you been apart of your ideal "group" and have had to go against other groups that stacked 40-45k health as a minimum? It's boring. It's really boring. Generally you aren't pressure DPSing through an individual with 1-2 dedicated healers on top of whatever healing they have (if it isn't a broken heal stack group with 12 instances of vigor and regen). So you're left with 100-0ing that player. You know what it takes to 100-0 someone with 45k health that has passive healing? You got a couple options.

1. Rush of agony, Negate, and Ulti dump the group.
2. Dark Convergence, Negate, and Ulti dump the group.
3. Necro pull, Negate, Ulti dump the group.
Get lucky and have a meatbag / cold fire hit a mobile group at the same time you do Numbers 1, 2, 3.

It's extremely stale. And probably the most aggravating thing to play against. And the only counter that exists is the ones mentioned above. Or just out numbering them 2/3:1.

You drop that ball groups health down to 30k and they still become difficult to kill, but possible to 100-0 them with less full group dedication and less Pull, Negate, Ulti dump utilization (because you can actually widdle down the group one by one).

So if we aren't going to address the elephants in the room (HoT stacking and Perma Block Tank Healers). Then why not take a look at other solutions.

I don't really think this idea would change whether the ball group playstyle is effective.

Those groups operate effectively because they run around at 145% movement speed while using line of sight and HoTs to their advantage until they can chain Ulti-dumps with Negates and bombs. Some of them use Snow Treaders to avoid being stopped. They will just adapt and change to whatever the new restrictions are.

They don't succeed because of an upper health limit, they succeed because they are able to use a group composition that allows them to bypass choices regular players and groups have to make between damage, healing and mitigation.

I don't know what the developers can do to address it but removing build options for other players isn't the right answer. Its not even an answer because the ball groups that you despise so much will just adapt to this change.

A starting point might be sets that are able to snare or maybe changes to how Snow Treaders work in a ball group composition. You can easily take out groups that are stuck in place with use of meatbag catapults and coldfire siege weaponry.

Vaqual

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I like my defensive options to be active and require skill. Roll, block, heal, LoS, positioning, etc.

HP is passive. Stacking it enables you to passively stand in stupid doing nothing and not be punished. Years of crying over "dumbing the game down" and "carried by xyz" yet hard to imagine anything dumber or more of a carry than high hp builds that let you make the dumbest mistakes imaginable and still recover against the highest damage builds buildable.

But that is only half the truth. Without certain build choices block and dodge can be costly to sustain, while movement/LoS/positioning strongly depend on speed, snare removal or movement abilities. What you view as an expression of "skill" is really only a bias towards certain build choices. Have you tried beating a DK with perma warmth on you by just elegantly moving around at base speed? High HP and skillful play are not diametrically opposed, you just get different options. If you have a build where you can only sustain break free + 1 dodge you situationally really need to face tank a bit. Each can shine in different scenarios and both have their respective drawbacks. High avoidance has a better time dealing with multiple opponents on its own, while allowing the player to pick their engagements. High base HP can be forgiving in 1v1 and works well with good heal support.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that certain builds aren't overperforming. But to disregard tanky builds as the low skill option, while evasive playstyles heavily rely on specific build choices that are situationally not sensible/available in high HP builds , is a bit cheap.

I am also not saying you can't build high HP + a lot of movement, but that will ultimately bring us to a general discussion about overperforming build elements and power budgeting. Which I think is the more fruitful approach, instead of capping HP.

edward_frigidhands

Vaqual wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I like my defensive options to be active and require skill. Roll, block, heal, LoS, positioning, etc.

HP is passive. Stacking it enables you to passively stand in stupid doing nothing and not be punished. Years of crying over "dumbing the game down" and "carried by xyz" yet hard to imagine anything dumber or more of a carry than high hp builds that let you make the dumbest mistakes imaginable and still recover against the highest damage builds buildable.

But to disregard tanky builds as the low skill option, while evasive playstyles heavily rely on specific build choices that are situationally not sensible/available in high HP builds , is a bit cheap.

I am also not saying you can't build high HP + a lot of movement, but that will ultimately bring us to a general discussion about overperforming build elements and power budgeting. Which I think is the more fruitful approach, instead of capping HP.

Different people have different ideas of what is skillful or even valid gameplay. Those different points of view should not be relied upon to advocate for removal of playstyles or build variety.

xylena_lazarow

Vaqual wrote: »

Without certain build choices block and dodge can be costly to sustain... High base HP can be forgiving

High HP has disproportionately low opportunity cost. Most players are perfectly fine giving up 10% damage for 25% more hp, as well as giving up max attribute foods to run Jewels or the super dense Bear Haunch.

Obviously high hp can make the game easier in some situations, but many of the same players defending high hp here are the same players complaining about "unkillable" ball groups or tower groups with 40k+ across the board.

Again, it's not to nerf tanks, which it won't, it's to get damage dealers and healers back under 35k hp.

Jsmalls

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

pokrakus wrote: »

Thank you. Make HP cap at 30 k plz so I will have more targets. NB main here

This is kind of what a lot of this sounds like to me:

"Please cap health at 30k so that my DPS main can destroy people 1vX/1v1. This is required for PvP even though PvP in an MMORPG is balanced around group vs group play rather than niche 1v1 or 1vX engagements.

It doesn't matter to me that less people will get to play the game the way they want. I am looking forward to my reign of terror on people that don't play the game my way.

Please make these drastic changes and institute many caps on essential player stats. I don't care how this affects other people's gameplay experience or the health of the game."

Have you been apart of your ideal "group" and have had to go against other groups that stacked 40-45k health as a minimum? It's boring. It's really boring. Generally you aren't pressure DPSing through an individual with 1-2 dedicated healers on top of whatever healing they have (if it isn't a broken heal stack group with 12 instances of vigor and regen). So you're left with 100-0ing that player. You know what it takes to 100-0 someone with 45k health that has passive healing? You got a couple options.

1. Rush of agony, Negate, and Ulti dump the group.
2. Dark Convergence, Negate, and Ulti dump the group.
3. Necro pull, Negate, Ulti dump the group.
Get lucky and have a meatbag / cold fire hit a mobile group at the same time you do Numbers 1, 2, 3.

It's extremely stale. And probably the most aggravating thing to play against. And the only counter that exists is the ones mentioned above. Or just out numbering them 2/3:1.

You drop that ball groups health down to 30k and they still become difficult to kill, but possible to 100-0 them with less full group dedication and less Pull, Negate, Ulti dump utilization (because you can actually widdle down the group one by one).

So if we aren't going to address the elephants in the room (HoT stacking and Perma Block Tank Healers). Then why not take a look at other solutions.

I don't really think this idea would change whether the ball group playstyle is effective.

Those groups operate effectively because they run around at 145% movement speed while using line of sight and HoTs to their advantage until they can chain Ulti-dumps with Negates and bombs. Some of them use Snow Treaders to avoid being stopped. They will just adapt and change to whatever the new restrictions are.

They don't succeed because of an upper health limit, they succeed because they are able to use a group composition that allows them to bypass choices regular players and groups have to make between damage, healing and mitigation.

I don't know what the developers can do to address it but removing build options for other players isn't the right answer. Its not even an answer because the ball groups that you despise so much will just adapt to this change.

A starting point might be sets that are able to snare or maybe changes to how Snow Treaders work in a ball group composition. You can easily take out groups that are stuck in place with use of meatbag catapults and coldfire siege weaponry.

You brought up some valid points. But then why do they stack health to minimum thresholds (40-45k)?

What you are saying is absolutely true to an extent. But health values also plays a major role in this. Otherwise they would only run 30k health and have a lot more damage.

JerBearESO

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

pokrakus wrote: »

Thank you. Make HP cap at 30 k plz so I will have more targets. NB main here

This is kind of what a lot of this sounds like to me:

"Please cap health at 30k so that my DPS main can destroy people 1vX/1v1. This is required for PvP even though PvP in an MMORPG is balanced around group vs group play rather than niche 1v1 or 1vX engagements.

It doesn't matter to me that less people will get to play the game the way they want. I am looking forward to my reign of terror on people that don't play the game my way.

Please make these drastic changes and institute many caps on essential player stats. I don't care how this affects other people's gameplay experience or the health of the game."

Have you been apart of your ideal "group" and have had to go against other groups that stacked 40-45k health as a minimum? It's boring. It's really boring. Generally you aren't pressure DPSing through an individual with 1-2 dedicated healers on top of whatever healing they have (if it isn't a broken heal stack group with 12 instances of vigor and regen). So you're left with 100-0ing that player. You know what it takes to 100-0 someone with 45k health that has passive healing? You got a couple options.

1. Rush of agony, Negate, and Ulti dump the group.
2. Dark Convergence, Negate, and Ulti dump the group.
3. Necro pull, Negate, Ulti dump the group.
Get lucky and have a meatbag / cold fire hit a mobile group at the same time you do Numbers 1, 2, 3.

It's extremely stale. And probably the most aggravating thing to play against. And the only counter that exists is the ones mentioned above. Or just out numbering them 2/3:1.

You drop that ball groups health down to 30k and they still become difficult to kill, but possible to 100-0 them with less full group dedication and less Pull, Negate, Ulti dump utilization (because you can actually widdle down the group one by one).

So if we aren't going to address the elephants in the room (HoT stacking and Perma Block Tank Healers). Then why not take a look at other solutions.

They don't succeed because of an upper health limit, they succeed because they are able to use a group composition that allows them to bypass choices regular players and groups have to make between damage, healing and mitigation.

I don't know what the developers can do to address it....

I think a lot of people wonder what the devs could even do to fix these kinds of issues. In most PvP games health represents a finite resource, but in ESO it seems to represent a sort of infinite resource, and thus only burst can kill.

Resolving HP to be in some way finite would solve most PvP issues, including ballgroups. You can't ballgroup infinitely while getting poked down.... ESO simply doesn't allow for the concept of poke or pressure, which are CORE fundamentals in most successful PvP games

Urzigurumash

To jolt around constantly is virtue

To stand still is depravity

Two laws of the Elder Sorcs Forum

Urzigurumash

Contrasted with the Law of DK/Warden:

The higher your HP is, the better player you are

taugrim

The problem IMO isn't simply health pools being too large. It's that some classes can survive meaningfully without as much health, while others can't. E.g. some classes and builds, i.e. non-Sorc / non-NB melees, need higher health because they get shot at when coming in and shot at when going out.

But this isn't the reason for the tank meta. So let's talk about the real problems...

The most obvious mechanic that underpins the tank meta is Undeath. It's absurb that passive still provides up to 30% mitgation when all the other mitigations were reduced to 10% or less. If Undeath's benefit was halved, i.e. up to 15% mitigation instead of 30%, that would go a long way towards weakening the tank meta, while still making the passive very worthwhile.

The other issue is the HoT is stacking. It's hard for players to die if they have multiple HoTs stacked on them. Reducing HoT stacking (which ZoS has not expressed an interest in doing) would go a long way towards ending the tank meta. There is simply too much group healing via HoT stacking. This is true in BGs and gets much worse in Cyrodiil with scaling # of players.

When talking about nerfing HoT stacking, the obvious question is which HoTs for the same spell are the ones that "stick" i.e. are actually healing. One solution would be to simply only allow for a given spell 2 stacks effectively healing (i.e. the 2 strongest) at any point of time, and the rest of the stacks do nothing until the other stronger stacks run out. That way we don't have a problem with non-healers overwriting the stronger stacks of healers. Every caster's stack exists, but at any point in time only the 2 strongest actually tick. That still rewards healing builds while vastly reducing the copious amounts of cross-healing happening today.

Damage has been creeping up gradually, which has helped with killing targets. There are some fights where people are not dying enough, but it's not as bad as it was a year ago.

garir_komes_molroy

previously, 25k hp was quite enough, if you balance hp, then "the more hp = the less damage but more heal 40k = 60-70% less damage, but 60-70% more heal

Skoomah

Time to kill is a better metric to balance around.

More offense = time to kill reduced, then defense should go down proportionately

More defense = time to kill increased, then offense should go down proportionately

BIS builds that have it all in terms of offense and defense is the heart of the issue.

I personally think the time to kill in this update is okay.

Miracle19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

would allow people to stack their resources in other ways and be just as annoying in other ways

That's fine, that's the whole point, when you have degenerately tanky 40k+ builds that also heal allies, you need a degenerately high amount of damage to kill them, now your meta becomes "broken checking broken" where casual builds have absolutely no chance against broken minmax builds, they're getting trolled on the roof for an hour, or immediately annihilated. Cap hp and nobody is tanky unless they give something up.

That’s kinda the point. A min max sweaty build and player should be miles better and stronger than an average/casual player. In no world should they be close. 40k hp+ builds are very much kill able. They become difficult to kill and feel like godly setups when you layer them with cross heals and group buffs.

notyuu

Idea: put a deminishing system into place that reduces your spell/weapon damage if your maxium HP is at or above 30K and scales up with your max health.

Reuslt: You can build tanky or damage/heals, not both.

JerBearESO

taugrim wrote: »

The problem IMO isn't simply health pools being too large. It's that some classes can survive meaningfully without as much health, while others can't. E.g. some classes and builds, i.e. non-Sorc / non-NB melees, need higher health because they get shot at when coming in and shot at when going out.

But this isn't the reason for the tank meta. So let's talk about the real problems...

The most obvious mechanic that underpins the tank meta is Undeath. It's absurb that passive still provides up to 30% mitgation when all the other mitigations were reduced to 10% or less. If Undeath's benefit was halved, i.e. up to 15% mitigation instead of 30%, that would go a long way towards weakening the tank meta, while still making the passive very worthwhile.

The other issue is the HoT is stacking. It's hard for players to die if they have multiple HoTs stacked on them. Reducing HoT stacking (which ZoS has not expressed an interest in doing) would go a long way towards ending the tank meta. There is simply too much group healing via HoT stacking. This is true in BGs and gets much worse in Cyrodiil with scaling # of players.

When talking about nerfing HoT stacking, the obvious question is which HoTs for the same spell are the ones that "stick" i.e. are actually healing. One solution would be to simply only allow for a given spell 2 stacks effectively healing (i.e. the 2 strongest) at any point of time, and the rest of the stacks do nothing until the other stronger stacks run out. That way we don't have a problem with non-healers overwriting the stronger stacks of healers. Every caster's stack exists, but at any point in time only the 2 strongest actually tick. That still rewards healing builds while vastly reducing the copious amounts of cross-healing happening today.

Damage has been creeping up gradually, which has helped with killing targets. There are some fights where people are not dying enough, but it's not as bad as it was a year ago.

As far as HoT stacking, the true solution is for HoTs, really all multi targeted healing/shielding, to divide their value amongst all affected targets. That way there need be no instance limit implemented, and it better solves the problem overall since groups would likely play around stack limitation but divided values is just a straight up solution.

Gilvoth

certainly an interesting idea, but isnt this already in practice? didnt this happen before a few years ago ?

i think this should be implemented and would help pvp fair fighting methods.

Udrath

Nerf undeath and high hp isn’t worth it on most classes asides classes with a shield scaling mechanic, warden with polar wind, and werewolf (which can’t have undeath). The more health you have with undeath, the more reaction time you have at low health to burst heal block. For reference undeath at low health is like having almost two sets of pariah.

Even if undeath was nerfed the new mythic is very strong and could replace it.

Gilvoth

maybe if everyone has the same forced HP cap and forced the same healing methods.

taugrim

Udrath wrote: »

Nerf undeath and high hp isn’t worth it on most classes asides classes with a shield scaling mechanic, warden with polar wind, and werewolf (which can’t have undeath). The more health you have with undeath, the more reaction time you have at low health to burst heal block. For reference undeath at low health is like having almost two sets of pariah.

Agree 100%.

Undeath is the real problem. Mitigation increases effective health. Undeath is the single biggest source of mitigation.

Cloudrest

Undeath would hardly be much of a problem with the amount of damage currently in the game if the HP cap was lowered to 25-30k like it was a few years ago. HP stacking is one of the biggest issues in the current meta, and such a large pool of health makes it far too forgiving for bad players and ballgroups to survive burst. Tack on the issue of crosshealing, too, and you have to actually try to die on a build with 45k+ hp to anything less than 7-8 players.

It's pretty obvious why people argue against these limitations that would make the game enjoyable again; they're carried by high HP pools and crosshealing, and are finally having some success for the first time in their many years of playing Cyrodiil on the most forgiving builds to ever exist with easy sustain. The game is currently in one of the worst states it has been, balance-wise; we've been stuck in a stagnant high-hp, high-healing meta centered around status effects and proc sets for well over a year now.

Lower HP, limit crosshealing, nerf sustain, and bring back burst.

ItsNotLiving

Better yet PvP should get random RNG statuses like the Pokémon games where if you get hit by shock there’s a 1% chance your move speed is reduced by 50%, Flame has a 1% chance to halve your damage, and Frost has a 1% to just put an unbreakable stun on you and all of them last until you die and cannot be cleansed. Finally an answer to those pesky stalemates in Cyrodiil.

Sporigudinai

Can you be a tank with 35k HP?

CrazyKitty

If you want to cap health with a hard cap, then damage needs a similar hard cap to be fair.

TechMaybeHic

Ok. Mag and stam capped at 25k