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We need to talk about Columbine
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manukartofanu✭✭✭✭SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »just pick up more columbine. and do your surveys
I dont want to do dumb and boring things like running around to pick flowers.
I use tristat in PvP and have millions of AP, let me buy it with those.
So what's the problem? Sell your millions of AP through dawn prisms and buy columbine.9 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »just pick up more columbine. and do your surveys
I dont want to do dumb and boring things like running around to pick flowers.
I use tristat in PvP and have millions of AP, let me buy it with those.
So what's the problem? Sell your millions of AP through dawn prisms and buy columbine.
Again, let me buy the most used potion in PvP with pvp currency.
I will stop here.4 -
SpacemanSpiff1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »just pick up more columbine. and do your surveys
I dont want to do dumb and boring things like running around to pick flowers.
I use tristat in PvP and have millions of AP, let me buy it with those.
i just pick em up when i see em. im not out farming.
not terribly dumb or boring, but go off2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Grizzbeorn wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The best source, by far, is to farm it.
Which EVERYONE who plays the game can do.
Making a personal choice not to do it isn't being discriminated against.
I didn't state that it was. I stated that it is not equally available resulting in the current market conditions. And that's true. It's not equally available to all play styles. Nobody has a problem acknowledging that when someone says that MYM is a PvP event and that tickets aren't equally available to PvE players. Because it is one and it's not. But somehow saying picking mats is casual PvE is alleging discrimination.
But that applies to all kind of things. I.e. my decisions how I want to play and what I don't want to do gives me access to certain stuff but also requires me to buy certain stuff - and that includes consumables.
Because this game is generally very accessible especially to PvE. In general for PvE, they have done a good job of making it so playing the game the way you want grants you the stuff you need for your play style. Casual PvE activities grants you all the mats and gear you need to do casual PvE. If you want bonus nice things like cosmetics or extra boosts in stats, you'll need to go the extra mile. But you don't need to put in constant extra work (especially not in PvP) to get the stuff you need for regular play in PvE.
For PvP it's also generally either stuff rewarded for doing the play style or things easy enough to do that it doesn't require constant grind each week.
The exception is a few pots and it's perfectly reasonable for them to ask for it to be brought in line with everything else. ZOS already did this with a couple of commonly used pots, so there's no reason why the most commonly needed pot for a long time now shouldn't join them.Edited by spartaxoxo on 3 March 2024 17:391 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Grizzbeorn wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »The best source, by far, is to farm it.
Which EVERYONE who plays the game can do.
Making a personal choice not to do it isn't being discriminated against.
I didn't state that it was. I stated that it is not equally available resulting in the current market conditions. And that's true. It's not equally available to all play styles. Nobody has a problem acknowledging that when someone says that MYM is a PvP event and that tickets aren't equally available to PvE players. Because it is one and it's not. But somehow saying picking mats is casual PvE is alleging discrimination.
But that applies to all kind of things. I.e. my decisions how I want to play and what I don't want to do gives me access to certain stuff but also requires me to buy certain stuff - and that includes consumables.
Because this game is generally very accessible especially to PvE. In general for PvE, they have done a good job of making it so playing the game the way you want grants you the stuff you need for your play style. Casual PvE grants you all the mats and gear you need to do casual PvE. If you want bonus nice things like cosmetics or extra boosts in stats, you'll need to go the extra mile. But you don't need to put in extra work in PvP to get the stuff you need for regular play in PvE.
For PvP it's also generally either stuff rewarded for doing the play style or things easy enough to do that it doesn't require constant grind each week.
The exception is a few pots and it's perfectly reasonable for them to ask for it to be brought in line with everything else.
You can already convert AP into gold and thus potions today. For example, Militant Ordinator motif pages provide a good conversion rate, where gloves and legs go for about 200k gold on PC EU* and cost 250k AP each. So 1 million AP gets you about 800k gold or 400 Columbine, enough to make 1600 tristat potions.
If ZOS indeed introduced AP tristat potions and priced them at 720 AP like the others, 1 million AP would get you just under 1400 potions by comparison. I wouldn't mind the added convenience, but it's not like PVP players have no viable route to get tristat potions via AP today. And it's no different from PVE players who farm dungeons and sell motifs or monster masks/shoulders to buy their Dragon Rheum and Columbine, for example.
* The same conversion roughly holds for PC NA. Columbine is twice as expensive there compared to PC EU, but you also get a lot more gold for Dawn Prisms, PVP motifs, etc.5 -
XSTRONG✭✭✭✭✭manukartofanu wrote: »SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »just pick up more columbine. and do your surveys
I dont want to do dumb and boring things like running around to pick flowers.
I use tristat in PvP and have millions of AP, let me buy it with those.
So what's the problem? Sell your millions of AP through dawn prisms and buy columbine.
Again, let me buy the most used potion in PvP with pvp currency.
I will stop here.
Anyone played when PvP players could buy spell power pots for AP? I did..
The Gold rush just shifted from pve players selling flowers/pots to PvP players selling the pots.
Pvp players earn AP which you can buy stuff to sell for gold to buy flowers or pots or you can farm them yourself, the absolute nr1 way to get flowers is through pvp currency Telwar.
Run around in open world to farm flowers you wouldnt get even 1 stack of columbine and bugloss if you did this for a week in a normal play time session.
Around 70k Tel war gives you about 1 stack of each + every other flower. Those 70k telwar are waaay faster to farm if you know what your doing then run around open world hoping to get a bugloss or columbine.
Zos could make this the biggest Gold sink of all time buy just introduce a Vendor that sell potions.2 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Agreed, such a vendor wouldn't only remove gold from the game (I don't trade at all personally, but most traders think it's too much gold around.), but also solve the issue of excessive grinding to stock up on consumables for various game modes.
Can't think of any counterargument tbh.Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.3 -
moo_2021✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
And make vendors useful.
They're pretty much useless at the moment. Why do they even exist?Edited by moo_2021 on 3 March 2024 18:021 -
freespirit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
And make vendors useful.
They're pretty much useless at the moment. Why do they even exist?
Many vendors sell little bits and pieces that are useful already......
Maybe not for endgame but definitely for newer players.
Chefs and Brewers - Starter recipes for crafting dailies
Enchanter - Potency runes, again low level ones are useful for dailies
Clothier - Some very basic furniture plans and also things like the Harvester Garden Shrub, a pretty butterfly producing furnishing!
Blacksmith and Carpenter - Similar to Clothier and ofc all three sell basic style mats.
Innkeeper - Sells the leads for the map furnishing for the current zone.
Grocer - Basic provisioning mats.
Whilst for those of us that have played for years, a lot of this is unneeded, for new players these items can make the game easier and therefore more enjoyable!
When people say to me........
"You're going to regret that in the morning"
I sleep until midday cos I'm a problem solver!3 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Agreed, such a vendor wouldn't only remove gold from the game (I don't trade at all personally, but most traders think it's too much gold around.), but also solve the issue of excessive grinding to stock up on consumables for various game modes.
Can't think of any counterargument tbh.
Yes, let's destroy the market for alchemists even more. No thanks.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Agreed, such a vendor wouldn't only remove gold from the game (I don't trade at all personally, but most traders think it's too much gold around.), but also solve the issue of excessive grinding to stock up on consumables for various game modes.
Can't think of any counterargument tbh.
Yes, let's destroy the market for alchemists even more. No thanks.
They can always add more things to do with alchemy rather than holding basic pots hostage.3 -
erdYrrson✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Agreed, such a vendor wouldn't only remove gold from the game (I don't trade at all personally, but most traders think it's too much gold around.), but also solve the issue of excessive grinding to stock up on consumables for various game modes.
Can't think of any counterargument tbh.
Yes, let's destroy the market for alchemists even more. No thanks.
They can always add more things to do with alchemy rather than holding basic pots hostage.
Tripot is not a basic potion.
I quote the author of the original post of this thread:
This is from May past year.DrNukenstein wrote: »Tristat pots are extremely powerful. They let you dump sustain and push your damage as high as possible without the downside of downtime. To a degree, they are an addictive substance. I am addicted to having the huge damage that I can have because I can reset my pools and boost regen by 30% every 40 seconds.
They should absolutely be expensive for that reason. As a tri-stat pot-head though, I don't think it's great that one columbine costs 3k+ on pc-na.
Fortunately, the login rewards frequently give you enough for a few BGs which offsets the cost to a degree. How much it offsets the cost depends on how little you play.
If anything columbine should be in rewards of the worthy year round, since that content is where people chug the tristat pots like fiends. It would be great if I could recoup some of the costs of my potion consumption by getting 2nd or even 1st place. In fact, I would wager that this is just the right amount of motivation most deathmatchers would need to start caring about balls and flags.
Basic potions are for me for example those already available from AP vendors, - Battle, Spell and Health Draughts.2 -
erdYrrson✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Wow, that I have to remember. Going through the list
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daily_Rewards
and then making a wish list for basic stuff, because it was a daily reward.
Of course not.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Wow, that I have to remember. Going through the list
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Daily_Rewards
and then making a wish list for basic stuff, because it was a daily reward.
Of course not.
I didn't state to request it because it was a daily reward. You claimed it wasn't a basic pot because the OP hyped it up. I said it was one and pointed to the daily rewards as the developers attempt to increase access to it.
At no point did I state that all daily rewards should be listed or that the reason to request it was because it was a daily reward.
Honestly, I think it's pretty telling that the arguments in favor of keeping things as is are things like this or saying people are entitled, lazy, or discriminating against other PvPers, etc.
Probably because the real answer as to why not is the one that @Sakiri was willing to state. People don't want it because they want to protect the high prices. I may not agree with her but I do appreciate that a lot. An actual reason why not. I sincerely and honestly do appreciate it. That's not snark.Edited by spartaxoxo on 3 March 2024 20:281 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Its cost vs convenience honestly. Is it annoying? Sure but if you dont wanna pay then you gotta plan. I hate farming but I need mats for pots and food so i can raid. Once or twice a week i bite the bullet and go farm and do survey every few weeks. Its just the name of the game.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on 3 March 2024 20:384 -
erdYrrson✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »[...]Honestly, I think it's pretty telling that the arguments in favor of keeping things as is are things like this or saying people are entitled, lazy, or discriminating against other PvPers, etc.
Probably because the real answer as to why not is the one that @Sakiri was willing to state. People don't want it because they want to protect the high prices. I may not agree with her but I do appreciate that a lot. An actual reason why not. I sincerely and honestly do appreciate it. That's not snark.
IMHO the main point against the suggested changes was, that the ingredients are readily available and in various ways obtainable. Player economy was of course also involved - in a similar back and forth way. Like in most other similar threads in the past.
I guess, if ZOS invests half the energy in reworking the alchemy and provisioning stuff, then we are up for quite a surprise. Whenever the sort of announced rework hits PTS.
Edit: Added the quote to make the connection...Edited by erdYrrson on 3 March 2024 20:440 -
Braffin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Agreed, such a vendor wouldn't only remove gold from the game (I don't trade at all personally, but most traders think it's too much gold around.), but also solve the issue of excessive grinding to stock up on consumables for various game modes.
Can't think of any counterargument tbh.
Yes, let's destroy the market for alchemists even more. No thanks.
People aren't asking for any forced changes to pricing at guild traders, so it's not about trading.
People simply ask for additional sources of potions/alchemy ingredients because the current aren't sufficient for their needs.
Never get between a cat and it's candy!
---
Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.4 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
They give them out for free for the same reason they give out 1 or 2 crates for free. They want you to get a taste of what it's like, so you'll get out your wallet and buy more.
Free sampling has been a staple of marketing from the beginning.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
They give them out for free for the same reason they give out 1 or 2 crates for free. They want you to get a taste of what it's like, so you'll get out your wallet and buy more.
Free sampling has been a staple of marketing from the beginning.
They aren't making big money selling pots like they are crates. They are giving them out for free for the same reason they also increased the source of the ingredient elsewhere, they know that Columbine is an important ingredient for a basic pot.Edited by spartaxoxo on 3 March 2024 21:102 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
They give them out for free for the same reason they give out 1 or 2 crates for free. They want you to get a taste of what it's like, so you'll get out your wallet and buy more.
Free sampling has been a staple of marketing from the beginning.
They aren't making big money selling pots like they are crates.
Can you link your source for this claim?
RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
They give them out for free for the same reason they give out 1 or 2 crates for free. They want you to get a taste of what it's like, so you'll get out your wallet and buy more.
Free sampling has been a staple of marketing from the beginning.
They aren't making big money selling pots like they are crates.
Can you link your source for this claim?
They give them away for free like candy dude. There's no way they're doing that if it's harming sales.1 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
They give them out for free for the same reason they give out 1 or 2 crates for free. They want you to get a taste of what it's like, so you'll get out your wallet and buy more.
Free sampling has been a staple of marketing from the beginning.
They aren't making big money selling pots like they are crates.
Can you link your source for this claim?
They give them away for free like candy dude. There's no way they're doing that if it's harming sales.
So, just your opinion, I see.
They are giving away crates on four days this month, but tri pots only once. And a stack of 200 crown tri pots costs 4,000 crowns. If you think they aren't making money on 47 second consumables, well, I don't know what to tell ya.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
They give them out for free for the same reason they give out 1 or 2 crates for free. They want you to get a taste of what it's like, so you'll get out your wallet and buy more.
Free sampling has been a staple of marketing from the beginning.
They aren't making big money selling pots like they are crates.
Can you link your source for this claim?
They give them away for free like candy dude. There's no way they're doing that if it's harming sales.
So, just your opinion, I see.
They are giving away crates on four days this month, but tri pots only once. And a stack of 200 crown tri pots costs 4,000 crowns. If you think they aren't making money on 47 second consumables, well, I don't know what to tell ya.
Tri pots is an extremely common reward that's given most every month multiple times. It's simple business 101 that you don't make something that's a big seller free so often that a large portion of your playerbase never has to buy them again.
I don't think there's any credible evidence that tripots are a big cash cow for them.Edited by spartaxoxo on 3 March 2024 21:591 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Not everyone. People who are into housing (for example), have to go farm for mats if they don’t want to buy them. And their mats are a rare drop and they need them in large quantities.
Casual RP players who want motifs for RP may have to buy them at guild stores, or in the crown store.Edited by BlueRaven on 3 March 2024 22:013 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Not everyone. People who are into housing (for example), have to go farm for mats. And their mats are a rare drop and they need them in large quantities.
Casual RP players who want motifs for RP may have to buy them at guild stores, or in the crown store.
You get a lot of motifs and the like from casual PvE.
Housing is another gameplay feature that is too expensive. I'll give you that. Pretty much just people who need tripots in large numbers and Housing.
Regardless, most everyone gets what they need by playing as they want. And they can optionally enhance that by grinding. And it's perfectly reasonable for those that aren't getting that to request to be treated like the vast majority of players.Edited by spartaxoxo on 3 March 2024 22:040 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
They give them out for free for the same reason they give out 1 or 2 crates for free. They want you to get a taste of what it's like, so you'll get out your wallet and buy more.
Free sampling has been a staple of marketing from the beginning.
They aren't making big money selling pots like they are crates.
Can you link your source for this claim?
They give them away for free like candy dude. There's no way they're doing that if it's harming sales.
So, just your opinion, I see.
They are giving away crates on four days this month, but tri pots only once. And a stack of 200 crown tri pots costs 4,000 crowns. If you think they aren't making money on 47 second consumables, well, I don't know what to tell ya.
Tri pots is an extremely common reward that's given most every month multiple times. It's simple business 101 that you don't make something that's a big seller free so often that a large portion of your playerbase never has to buy them again.
I don't think there's any credible evidence that tripots are a big cash cow for them.
Can you link the numbers ("credible evidence") on how much ZOS makes on crown crates per month? Or, is this yet again, your opinion? Just because you see people riding around on their store bought mounts doesn't mean they don't have stacks of crown potions in their pockets that you can't see. And people have stated here on multiple occasions that they go through a stack of 200 a day, or more. Not everybody is rich enough to pay 300,000 gold per stack (PC/NA) at that rate. A lot of people have more real cash than they do pretend gold. Plus, I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of casual players don't even know that there's a player made version of the crown store tri pot.
Why would they sell werewolf and vampire bites for thousands of crowns in the store when players can just go stand at a shrine and ask in zone chat, or go get themselves bitten for free? Convenience is why. But, you seem to think you know what players are and aren't buying from the store, so I'm not going to change your mind. And that's ok.RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
They give them out for free for the same reason they give out 1 or 2 crates for free. They want you to get a taste of what it's like, so you'll get out your wallet and buy more.
Free sampling has been a staple of marketing from the beginning.
They aren't making big money selling pots like they are crates.
Can you link your source for this claim?
They give them away for free like candy dude. There's no way they're doing that if it's harming sales.
So, just your opinion, I see.
They are giving away crates on four days this month, but tri pots only once. And a stack of 200 crown tri pots costs 4,000 crowns. If you think they aren't making money on 47 second consumables, well, I don't know what to tell ya.
Tri pots is an extremely common reward that's given most every month multiple times. It's simple business 101 that you don't make something that's a big seller free so often that a large portion of your playerbase never has to buy them again.
I don't think there's any credible evidence that tripots are a big cash cow for them.
Can you link the numbers ("credible evidence") on how much ZOS makes on crown crates per month? Or, is this yet again, your opinion? Just because you see people riding around on their store bought mounts doesn't mean they don't have stacks of crown potions in their pockets that you can't see. And people have stated here on multiple occasions that they go through a stack of 200 a day, or more. Not everybody is rich enough to pay 300,000 gold per stack (PC/NA) at that rate. A lot of people have more real cash than they do pretend gold. Plus, I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of casual players don't even know that there's a player made version of the crown store tri pot.
Why would they sell werewolf and vampire bites for thousands of crowns in the store when players can just go stand at a shrine and ask in zone chat, or go get themselves bitten for free? Convenience is why. But, you seem to think you know what players are and aren't buying from the store, so I'm not going to change your mind. And that's ok.
There is more to evidence than stats. It is NOT the only form of evidence.
ZOS is constantly churning out new crates and spend a lot of time making content for them.
It is generally best business practice to focus on your products that are actually selling.
The industry shows lootboxes and battle passes to be generally lucrative.
Crates are given our far more sparsely and the type that they give out most often is a modified version that mostly just contains potions and scrolls.
Meanwhile, ZOS has spent little to no time on adding additional pots to the crown store.
They give them out for free a lot.
Many users report having so many of these free pots that a common feature request is the ability to skip accepting them at all.
Most players are into story content and not difficult content. They have stated that in the past.
We also know that the difficulty level of overland means that most people aren't going to need pots often.
All of ZOS's behavior as a business indicates that pots aren't a big seller but that crates are a big seller.
They don't generally advertise potions as for sale in the crown store in their showcases like they do cosmetics.
If you want to ignore all of that to ask for only unreasonable evidence (no player has access to their books) then be my guest. But I don't think there's any evidence to support they are so bad at business that they give their profitable items away for free constantly while wasting their time spending lots of effort on an item that doesn't sell.Edited by spartaxoxo on 3 March 2024 22:284