We need to talk about Columbine

moo_2021 · February 29

Just build sustain. I love it when I see people running those unstoppable potions when fighting my team, burning precious gold while mine costs exactly zero.

No more writ or alchemy farming for me.

sarahthes · February 29

moo_2021 wrote: »

Just build sustain. I love it when I see people running those unstoppable potions when fighting my team, burning precious gold while mine costs exactly zero.

No more writ or alchemy farming for me.

In endgame PvE, building sustain comes at the cost of damage and is incredibly inefficient when you can get sustain from a consumable instead of a skill or a set.

moo_2021 · February 29

sarahthes wrote: »

In endgame PvE, building sustain comes at the cost of damage and is incredibly inefficient when you can get sustain from a consumable instead of a skill or a set.

Yes but I don't care anymore.

The supply of alchemy and provision in ESO is never meant for everyone to use them all the time. Until ZoS changes that, I'll stick with my high sustain set and cheap food.

Rowjoh · February 29

Run a build that doesn't depend on expensive potions ?

I settled on a couple of alternative builds (one in PVP the other PVE) when Columbine was waaaay rarer than it is today, and found they out performed the meta tristat-dependant versions

sarahthes · February 29

Rowjoh wrote: »

Run a build that doesn't depend on expensive potions ?

I settled on a couple of alternative builds (one in PVP the other PVE) when Columbine was waaaay rarer than it is today, and found they out performed the meta tristat-dependant versions

Did you find them viable for Planesbreaker and/or Swash?

Lumsdenml · February 29

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Below is a screenshot from Tamriel trade center. Pages and pages of Columbine going for upwards of 3500 per, with many going for over 4500

Just the columbine for a stack of 100 tristat potions costs an average of 100k. 1000 gold+ per potion, and they are a staple of PvP community play patterns. At this point it's completely impossible to sustain tristat pot consumption with the rewards from content, PvE or PvP.

Something's gotta give on these, and I'm not here to say @zos this is for sure a problem and needs to be fixed in your game that you say you own/run. But it's kind of a problem with this game that you own/run. While I know I will never be asked by an employee of ZOS how to fix this problem, here are some ideas on how to fix this problem:

-Give Columbine in rewards for the worthy, everyday and all year.
-Add one or several other reagents that can be used instead of Columbine
-Create more options for mag+stam pots that don't use Columbine or other current huge money reagents. The health restore is nice but is the least useful thing of these very useful potions
-price control through buying with AP. This is probably less than ideal though, since the biggest users are printing AP like mad men and getting the price right without killing off the buying and selling of herbs would be trickier than "fixing" cross healing.

Last idea: Just get rid of them. I love them, I love using them. But let's be real here, in the hybrid era these are like a top 5 enabler for do it all builds and drawn out fights, and no other potion option (except the rightfully even more expensive stam/mag/heroism) is close to being as universally useful.

This is simple economics. If prices are too high, don't buy. If there is more supply than demand, prices will fall. Do crafting writs and farm. Do your surveys.

Jaraal · February 29

kojou wrote: »

Still, I think being able to buy the Tri stat potions with AP would be a good QoL improvement to introduce into the game and would take some of the pressure off of Columbine demand.

I'm all for this. I would love to have another use for my alliance points. And it would definitely drive the price of columbine down. The problem is, Crown tri pots are undoubtedly a big seller and income machine for the studio. How would they explain to their shareholders why they were voluntarily cutting profits?

And to the folks saying 'just use the free daily reward potions'.... I admire your optimism, but a large number of us are using 200+ of these or the equivalent Essence of Health pots per day. Overland content doesn't require such an investment, but end game content (including PvP) certainly does.

manukartofanu · February 29

Such prices for Columbine are only on the PC NA server, am I understanding this correctly? So, perhaps the issue is not with the economy or this plant, but with the reluctance to gather it while still using it excessively?

CrashTest · February 29

sarahthes wrote: »

All I want is for the fun things I do to be a little more rewarding in terms of making it easier to buy the mats or the potions. I'm not even asking for prices to come down or drop rates to increase.

This is a much more reasonable request than the OP's.

sarahthes · March 1

Stefirex wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

Stefirex wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Below is a screenshot from Tamriel trade center. Pages and pages of Columbine going for upwards of 3500 per, with many going for over 4500

[snip]
Last idea: Just get rid of them. I love them, I love using them. But let's be real here, in the hybrid era these are like a top 5 enabler for do it all builds and drawn out fights, and no other potion option (except the rightfully even more expensive stam/mag/heroism) is close to being as universally useful.

For the record, I personally use the Purple Reward Tri-pots more than my own crafted Health, Magicka Stamina tri-pots. There's an abundance of them. Frankly they already take up the slack for me. Are they as good as crafted? Nah, Better! They're FREE!

sarahthes wrote: »

A solution that would put some downward pressure on columbine would be AP tripots.

Again, Daily Reward Tri-Pots are free!

Using my own quote to reply to you

Dekrypted wrote: »

You know somethings wrong when it's beneficial to actually not play this game and wait for your tri pots from the daily log in because tri pots are too expensive.

There have been threads before about this and they've been gaslit to oblivion by probably the people continously raising the prices. It's actually a problem. Doesn't make sense to shove hybridisation down our throat and then let the prices go out of control for potions that become more and more essential.

I would like to play the game and have fun. These prices prevent me from doing that and only incentives me to not play for days on end just to have fun for a limited period of time.

I have three accounts and more Daily tri-pots banked than I will probably ever use. If you're running through them that fast, maybe it's a learn to play issue like making sure you don't take that much damage through proper gearing etcetra.

manukartofanu wrote: »

Such prices for Columbine are only on the PC NA server, am I understanding this correctly? So, perhaps the issue is not with the economy or this plant, but with the reluctance to gather it while still using it excessively?

It tends to be American Nature where everyone wants handouts instead of farming them, they'd rather complain they cost too much. They're bloody well free if you know how to collect them. No sympathy from me. Sorry Nope! None. Nadda.

I use potions on cooldown when engaged in combat, because that's appropriate for my class/build and the content I'm doing (trial trifectas, and PvP).

I really don't think I need to learn to play (PvE) given the only tris I'm missing are Swash and Mind Mender, and I've led most of my trifectas.

DenverRalphy · March 1

Why are people still arguing that there's not enough Columbine to support the obscene amounts of pots being consumed? And that it's too much work to farm it yourself?

The only reason the prices are so high, is because players are so desperate to have them they'll pay anything for them. And the sellers know it. They're laughing all the way to the bank.

If getting Columbine was in any way difficult to collect in mass quantities, you wouldn't see it available on so many traders. If someone were to buyout a guild trader's entire supply, it'd be replenished within moments after the sellers notice that it's been sold. And that's with sellers limited to a finite amount of slots to sell their wares. Even if ZOS gave everyone a 50% increase in the number of trader slots to make room for more, they'd fill up instantly and at the same prices as they are now.

It's NOT a Supply and Demand issue. It's just a Demand issue. Prices too high for you? Don't pay them to lower the demand. That simple. The game provide numerous methods to generate income. If a player chooses not to utilze any of them, then that's on the player his/herself. So what if they don't like having to occasionally farm or work to earn coin. Boo friggin hoo. That's how it works in every MMO ever created.

spartaxoxo · March 1

It is absolutely a supply and demand issue.

If it takes you 3 hours of grinding to get 30 minutes of actual playtime (made up number to illustrate the argument), then obviously that's not sustainable and you have to buy.

Sellers can charge what they want even though the mat isn't a rare drop because they have a captive audience that needs large amounts of product.

EF321 · March 1

DrNukenstein wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

or play at a huge disadvantage to your peers who are as good or better than you at the game.

So where do they get their potions then?

They get a few for free every month, and pay huge bucks/time for the rest. And the bucks/time we pay shouldn't be as big as they are is all I'm saying.

Player who spent time and gold to acquire best in slot consumables has advantage over someone who didn't (and doesn't even want to). Makes sense.

FlopsyPrince · March 1

BlueRaven wrote: »

Wow! Maybe I should start selling some of my mats.

That isn't many!

I almost never sell my mats, I just pile them up. Helps when making things to not have to worry about some things.

FlopsyPrince · March 1

sarahthes wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is, the activities I spend my time on don't all give rewards that pay for the cost of doing the activities. I'm fine paying for tripots and heroism pots (which also use columbine) at current prices if I can generate enough gold to keep up with them.

My time is limited, and having to choose between either doing the thing that is fun, or farming to do the fun things at some later date, isn't really a great choice.

TLDR endgame raiding needs to provide more gold earning potential.

Level crafting on your character (or several). On the PC you can use addons to help, but even on console it goes quickly. Decent gold. Not massive amounts, but good for the limited time it takes.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · March 1

DrNukenstein wrote: »

here are some ideas on how to fix this problem:

-Give Columbine in rewards for the worthy, everyday and all year.
-Add one or several other reagents that can be used instead of Columbine
-Create more options for mag+stam pots that don't use Columbine or other current huge money reagents. The health restore is nice but is the least useful thing of these very useful potions
-price control through buying with AP. This is probably less than ideal though, since the biggest users are printing AP like mad men and getting the price right without killing off the buying and selling of herbs would be trickier than "fixing" cross healing.

Last idea: Just get rid of them. I love them, I love using them. But let's be real here, in the hybrid era these are like a top 5 enabler for do it all builds and drawn out fights, and no other potion option (except the rightfully even more expensive stam/mag/heroism) is close to being as universally useful.

The prices of Hakejo are too high and the PVP set gear from AP are too expensive going 1.7million or more. Even deadly daggers going for 800K+

So because of that, we demand Hakejo should have a 10% chance to drop in overland nodes and treasure chests in Cyrodiil should drop gear from AP boxes at 100% rate

sarahthes · March 1

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is, the activities I spend my time on don't all give rewards that pay for the cost of doing the activities. I'm fine paying for tripots and heroism pots (which also use columbine) at current prices if I can generate enough gold to keep up with them.

My time is limited, and having to choose between either doing the thing that is fun, or farming to do the fun things at some later date, isn't really a great choice.

TLDR endgame raiding needs to provide more gold earning potential.

Level crafting on your character (or several). On the PC you can use addons to help, but even on console it goes quickly. Decent gold. Not massive amounts, but good for the limited time it takes.

Every single character has all crafting skill lines maxxed. I do writs daily. If I have time to do all 19 characters, I get enough gold from writs to buy almost 30 minutes worth of heroism pots (per week). So it's like 5-7 hours of work for 30 minutes of fun. Seems sustainable!

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · March 1

sarahthes wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is, the activities I spend my time on don't all give rewards that pay for the cost of doing the activities. I'm fine paying for tripots and heroism pots (which also use columbine) at current prices if I can generate enough gold to keep up with them.

My time is limited, and having to choose between either doing the thing that is fun, or farming to do the fun things at some later date, isn't really a great choice.

TLDR endgame raiding needs to provide more gold earning potential.

Level crafting on your character (or several). On the PC you can use addons to help, but even on console it goes quickly. Decent gold. Not massive amounts, but good for the limited time it takes.

Every single character has all crafting skill lines maxxed. I do writs daily. If I have time to do all 19 characters, I get enough gold from writs to buy almost 30 minutes worth of heroism pots (per week). So it's like 5-7 hours of work for 30 minutes of fun. Seems sustainable!

If you spend those 5-7 hours to farm alchemy mats you shouldn't have that problem.

Zabagad · March 1

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Wow! Maybe I should start selling some of my mats.

That isn't many!

I almost never sell my mats, I just pile them up. Helps when making things to not have to worry about some things.

Pics or it didn't happen

FrancisCrawford · March 1

Ugrak wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

...Alchemy Surveys(reset until at least one Columbine is showing)...

just one (maybe a silly) question - how does one reset an Alchemy Survey?

Walk away some distance, then return. The plants will have respawned and do so in a random way so you might get lucky.

Same process as when picking stacked survey maps to get them to respawn.

Wait. The survey isn't consumed until you've picked at least one plant???

I never knew that, nor thought to carefully test.

Drammanoth · March 1

I do have an idea which would be related to CP 2.0 Craft tree rework - have a look:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/594079/idea-craft-cp-sub-tree-ideas-constant-wip/p1?new=1

Particularly, this:

Name: >> Advanced Mixology
Description: Allows mixing certain potions to make advanced versions of potions.
Stages: 3 (I.requires thrice as many pots to mix, II.requires twice as many, III.requires one pot)
Slottable: yes
Comment: for example:
a) 1hp + 1mag OR 1hp + 1stam OR 1mag + 1stam = 1 di-stat
b) 1hp + 1mag + 1stam = 1 tri-stat.
c) 1ravage hp + 1ravage mag + 1ravage stam = 1ravage tri-stat

The pots above could ONLY be crafted from regular potions and of the same level. The basic idea is that those pots are usually sold, as those crafted are superior. Why then couldn’t we use them? This could be an alternative to all the self-crafted alchemical pots and the mats that can be sold to those who direly need them.

WySoSirius · March 1

As an avid crafter , gatherer , pver , etc etc , i dont see a problem with the price, its what the market is reflecting with supply / demand , just gonna have to farm those alchemy surveys you might be collecting

Jierdanit · March 1

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The prices of Hakejo are too high and the PVP set gear from AP are too expensive going 1.7million or more. Even deadly daggers going for 800K+

So because of that, we demand Hakejo should have a 10% chance to drop in overland nodes and treasure chests in Cyrodiil should drop gear from AP boxes at 100% rate

There is a massive difference between Columbine and Hakeijos or Deadly daggers. You only need to buy 1 Deadly dagger and at max 11 Hakejios (which no one is going to need) for your entire build.

PvP Players constantly need more Columbine to keep playing their build. Its not a one time investment.
Also btw, PvE DPS potions can actually be bought for AP which is a big reason why they are not so expensive anymore.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

If you spend those 5-7 hours to farm alchemy mats you shouldn't have that problem.

LOL. Imagine expecting people to spend 5-7 hours a week to get enough materials to keep using potions that are necessary to be as strong as possible.

Jierdanit · March 1

WySoSirius wrote: »

As an avid crafter , gatherer , pver , etc etc , i dont see a problem with the price, its what the market is reflecting with supply / demand , just gonna have to farm those alchemy surveys you might be collecting

So you get those materials by simply playing how you always do?
And you dont need to use them for your gameplay?

Sounds like youre absolutely not biased at all then

sarahthes · March 1

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is, the activities I spend my time on don't all give rewards that pay for the cost of doing the activities. I'm fine paying for tripots and heroism pots (which also use columbine) at current prices if I can generate enough gold to keep up with them.

My time is limited, and having to choose between either doing the thing that is fun, or farming to do the fun things at some later date, isn't really a great choice.

TLDR endgame raiding needs to provide more gold earning potential.

Level crafting on your character (or several). On the PC you can use addons to help, but even on console it goes quickly. Decent gold. Not massive amounts, but good for the limited time it takes.

Every single character has all crafting skill lines maxxed. I do writs daily. If I have time to do all 19 characters, I get enough gold from writs to buy almost 30 minutes worth of heroism pots (per week). So it's like 5-7 hours of work for 30 minutes of fun. Seems sustainable!

If you spend those 5-7 hours to farm alchemy mats you shouldn't have that problem.

Yes... But then I won't have time to raid. Or PvP.

sarahthes · March 1

Jierdanit wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

The prices of Hakejo are too high and the PVP set gear from AP are too expensive going 1.7million or more. Even deadly daggers going for 800K+

So because of that, we demand Hakejo should have a 10% chance to drop in overland nodes and treasure chests in Cyrodiil should drop gear from AP boxes at 100% rate

There is a massive difference between Columbine and Hakeijos or Deadly daggers. You only need to buy 1 Deadly dagger and at max 11 Hakejios (which no one is going to need) for your entire build.

PvP Players constantly need more Columbine to keep playing their build. Its not a one time investment.
Also btw, PvE DPS potions can actually be bought for AP which is a big reason why they are not so expensive anymore.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

If you spend those 5-7 hours to farm alchemy mats you shouldn't have that problem.

LOL. Imagine expecting people to spend 5-7 hours a week to get enough materials to keep using potions that are necessary to be as strong as possible.

Mostly correct, except now almost all PvE DPS use tripots, not spell or weapon power pots.

erdYrrson · March 1

Jierdanit wrote: »

[...]LOL. Imagine expecting people to spend 5-7 hours a week to get enough materials to keep using potions that are necessary to be as strong as possible.

But no one is forcing you to want potions right?

In case you don't remember:

Jierdanit wrote: »

xclassgaming wrote: »

you are forced if you want event tickets.

But no one is forcing you to want event tickets right?

erdYrrson · March 1

sarahthes wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

[...]If you spend those 5-7 hours to farm alchemy mats you shouldn't have that problem.

Yes... But then I won't have time to raid. Or PvP.

Ever tried the Waxed Apothecary Sacks for Tel Var on a larger scale? Honestly interested, if those are a valid alternative. I don't need them and I have read mixed posts/reviews (well, no surprise there).

sarahthes · March 1

erdYrrson wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

[...]If you spend those 5-7 hours to farm alchemy mats you shouldn't have that problem.

Yes... But then I won't have time to raid. Or PvP.

Ever tried the Waxed Apothecary Sacks for Tel Var on a larger scale? Honestly interested, if those are a valid alternative. I don't need them and I have read mixed posts/reviews (well, no surprise there).

They're not bad, but right now I'm using my tel var to buy hakeijo for personal use.

To put into perspective why it would be nice for things to change, right now I spend ~1m per raid night on heroism potions, and my total loot from a night of raiding typically is less than 50K. I'm not asking for more columbine. I'm asking for more raid loot so I can afford columbine.

EF321 · March 1

sarahthes wrote: »

erdYrrson wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

[...]If you spend those 5-7 hours to farm alchemy mats you shouldn't have that problem.

Yes... But then I won't have time to raid. Or PvP.

Ever tried the Waxed Apothecary Sacks for Tel Var on a larger scale? Honestly interested, if those are a valid alternative. I don't need them and I have read mixed posts/reviews (well, no surprise there).

They're not bad, but right now I'm using my tel var to buy hakeijo for personal use.

To put into perspective why it would be nice for things to change, right now I spend ~1m per raid night on heroism potions, and my total loot from a night of raiding typically is less than 50K. I'm not asking for more columbine. I'm asking for more raid loot so I can afford columbine.

I've spent 10 million on furnishing a house and my loot is zero. I've spend 300 million on furnishing a crafting hall and my loot is still zero. Almost like you have to do something else in game to be able to afford your activities that involve spending endgame resources.