Whats breaking cloak v 99999

CameraBeardThePirate

olsborg wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

- Soul Siphon (other morph of tether), this is a very strong heal + HoT, I've seen tooltips where this skill can reach easily 50k+ on its HoT component).

Unusable in pvp, its a pure heal , just like restoration ulti, but if you also put 0.4 cast time on restoulti, noone would use it, you will be dead before it starts healing you.

Lmao this is literally one of the best healing ultimates in PVP. Far from unusable.

Turtle_Bot

You said, and I quote

I was pointing out that NB does not have a native HOT that I can think of, other than Swallow Soul.

I listed half a dozen HoTs that are native to the NB class kit.

We can argue the technicalities/semantics of works with cloak or not all day long, but to claim that NB has no native HoTs in its kit is just flat out wrong.

The post provided some facts for people in regards to healing over time options that NB has natively within its class kit. That is how it is relevant to the discussion.

Refreshing path is not supposed to be a cast and sit HoT like templar rune/cleanse or arcanist field, there's a reason it has major expedition. Its supposed to lay a path for the NB to get out of immediate dodge towards some LoS and it gives a small heal along the way to help facilitate that by mitigating some of the DoT pressure that will be ticking while the NB cloaks and runs. I've used it countless times this way and it is crazy good in IC where there is LoS everywhere and good (smart) movement means that the path is not exposing where I am, it gives a general area of where I was, but not where I am unless I am not moving well enough.

For Dark cloak, many have suggested for that morph and offering to be swapped, so NB is forced to choose the assassin or brawler playstyle, not have both at the same time. It is still a class HoT and if this suggestion was at least tested, then yes it would be entirely relevant to the discussion. It is also still a HoT that is native to the NB class kit.

Concealed also gives you minor expedition at all times. With how efficient NB bar space is, it is very easy to slot it just as a buff skill for berserk + expedition (something I have done on my current NB build). Put it this way, NB is giving up far less to slot concealed for its passive buffs of berserk + expidition than sorcerer is giving up to slot camo hunter/inner light exclusively for major prophecy/savagery.

Crit surge as a "HoT" is being carried entirely by the change to wards that allowed them to scale from stacking health. Crit surge also scales from max health. Before this change crit surges heal was barely above siphoning attacks heal, even though it had the much harder to proc condition. Sorcerer also doesn't have an inherent way to reliably proc crit surge anymore, the recent change to melee attack range and the change to the tick rate in U35 took care of that.

Crit surge is also much less reliable than you are describing it. ZOS did 2 things to completely gut the viability of this:
1. Increased the melee attack range last patch from 5m to 7m while they left the base radius of lightning form/morphs at the old 5m.
2. They nerfed the tick rate of lightning form/morphs from 1 second to 2 seconds, effectively halving the heal from crit surge.

This means that melee enemies simply outrange boundless storm entirely and the first 4 seconds of hurricane allowing them to freely wail on the sorcerer without even proccing the most reliable way sorcerer has to trigger crit surge. It's no longer a case of "when it works" crit surge is now a case of IF it works. There's a reason sorcerer is running weapon skills and DoT builds despite not having a single good DoT ability in its kit. Sorcerer has zero healing over time without those builds.

Also, for sorcerer to build that 30% crit chance you have described it has to give up something significant. I know this, because I have tried to build that crit chance into a sorc build so much on the build editor.
It's either:
- find a non-existent bar slot to fit camo hunter/inner light
- a lot of its ranged and damage potential because it has to slot daggers (no crushing shock, no draugrkin, significantly lower frequency on status effect procs).
- a lot of sustain/damage/crit damage due to switching mundus (sustain is another big issue for sorcerer despite having dark conversion due to how expensive sorcerers entire kit is to use)
- loss of healing and sustain due to running crit pots over tri-stat potions
- a lot of pen because it has to run precise over sharpened
- armor traits that help with mitigation/sustain (impen/well fitted/sturdy) to run divines traits

This is because unlike NB, sorc doesn't have major prophecy/savagery in an easy to slot skill in its class kit and is already trying to fit far too much onto its bars to fix other issues to have the opportunity to also slot a way to get that buff.

Siphoning attacks has half the tool tip, but it procs every 0.7 seconds (this is the rough cooldown of light attacks), while crit surge has a built in cooldown of 1 second that hard caps the skill no matter how frequently the sorc crits (which is much harder to achieve than it is to simply light attack.
Siphoning attacks also gives a really nice burst of sustain (on par with dark conversion, the mag morph that gives increased resources) that cannot be prevented/countered. It requires pre-casting it, but this is something that can be done in cloak iirc and can be utilized to great efficiency to get another round of burst or healing (or cloak) in before NB must disengage to recover their resources.

No, I am not saying that NB should be forced to ulti gen to heal (even though NB has some of the best ulti gen in the entire game thanks to the catalyst and transfer passives).

Are you suggesting I use anything but my offensive ult in PvP?

As a solo player you should know how essential defensive ultimates are to surviving in outnumbered fights. There's a reason every non-NB slots and uses an ultimate that is, at the bare minimum partially (if not entirely), defensive on the back bar. By not slotting something that is at least partially defensive on the back bar you are giving up any notion of surviving those intense pressure scenarios (unless of course you're on a NB and cloak covers for that).

That one line you said goes to prove just how absurdly broken cloak is as an ability, it is so strong that it completely replaces the need for an entire defensive ultimate on a class that is supposed to struggle to survive. If that is not overpowered and in desperate need of adjustment, then nothing is and all other classes should have all of their nerfs reverted.

Cloak is clearly on par with an ultimate ability in terms of power, but it's cost/usability is on par with a regular spammable ability. How is that not broken by any stretch of the imagination. Especially once we factor in the ENTIRE class kit that NB has access to that is more than strong enough on its own without requiring cloak on top of it.

DrNukenstein

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB also has the refreshing shadows passive that is an unnamed +15% to all recoveries just for existing (doesn't even require slotting anything). That is another 15% health recovery that can be stacked with the minor and major fortitude (health recovery) buffs for a total of +60% to health recovery. If undeath wasn't so strong and vampire wasn't as synergistic with NB's entire kit as it currently is, that would be an absurd amount of permanent bonus health recovery that would be on par with any HoT, even in cyrodiil.

We have reached a new level of "nerf rogue". Even the passive health recovery is out of line now.

Turtle_Bot

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

NB also has the refreshing shadows passive that is an unnamed +15% to all recoveries just for existing (doesn't even require slotting anything). That is another 15% health recovery that can be stacked with the minor and major fortitude (health recovery) buffs for a total of +60% to health recovery. If undeath wasn't so strong and vampire wasn't as synergistic with NB's entire kit as it currently is, that would be an absurd amount of permanent bonus health recovery that would be on par with any HoT, even in cyrodiil.

We have reached a new level of "nerf rogue". Even the passive health recovery is out of line now.

Way to take that out of context....

I never said health recovery passive was out of line. I was using it as an example of health restore over time that NB (as well as all classes) has native access to (i.e. not something requiring slotting/using out of class abilities or specific weapons).

I also mentioned the caveat that for this to be a viable way to restore health over time on par with HoTs, that undeath would have to be significantly weaker and vampires overall kit would have to not be so synergistic with NBs kit. I.e. vampire would have to be nerfed into the ground to not be worth running anymore, even on a NB.

olsborg

Worth mentioning that you also break your own cloak everytime you procc a status effect on someone.

Major_Toughness

I run Ele Sus and Structured Entropy, as long as the dots are on them they can't cloak for more than 2s at a time. Easily drains them of resources.

Sure they can get distance and LoS but at that point they're not a problem.

Same as when I hit Streak like 4x in a row. I get time to recover and most people give up chasing.