Whats breaking cloak v 99999

olsborg

Everytime a status effect gets applied to you via a dot etc. Such as the ever popular elemental susceptibility. (and it lasts 1 minute)
Everytime someone casts bound armaments on you, you cant cloak while its "channeling" you. (well you can, but wont do you much good)
While structured entropy dot is active on you, each tick will break you out.

Ive just listed the major issues that i could think of at the top of my head.

DrNukenstein

Crushing shock spam will hit you before cloak animation finishes and cloaks you which will break+prevent the cloak.

It feels like sorcs can straight up see you if they tag you with curse. I'm talking like juke behind and around a corner and they know exactly where to streak as long as curse is on. Look into that. It shouldn't happen as often as it does.

Way of fire triggering off of weapon dot ticks

Sorc bird zaps (IIRC they don't actually break cloak, but do blow your cover while you are cloaked.)

Flames of Oblivion will target and hit you through cloak.

The detonate morph that no one would ever consider using.

Constant minor expedition and recently buffed ranged weapons is making cloak a little more broken than it was. Consider reigning in the griefy and unfun ways in which ranged blades use cloak while leaving melee alone on any such adjustment.

Crushing and elemental weapon break stealth when cast. Please fix the bug where it stuns from ranged crouch attacks, instead of taking it away for everyone.

And the traditional method of guild detect skills which work better than people give them credit for while giving significant stat bonuses that could be considered worth 1 bar slot.

ItsNotLiving

Structured Entropy morph takes you out of cloak with every tic.

GooGa592

olsborg wrote: »

Everytime a status effect gets applied to you via a dot etc. Such as the ever popular elemental susceptibility. (and it lasts 1 minute)
Everytime someone casts bound armaments on you, you cant cloak while its "channeling" you. (well you can, but wont do you much good)
While structured entropy dot is active on you, each tick will break you out.

Ive just listed the major issues that i could think of at the top of my head.

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

DrNukenstein

GooGa592 wrote: »

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Oh lord, is there anything in the game that stops streak from working as advertised?

*I don't want to hear "gap closers" or "move fast" because those are not the same as entirely shutting down cloak for 20+ seconds.

Galeriano

olsborg wrote: »

Everytime a status effect gets applied to you via a dot etc. Such as the ever popular elemental susceptibility. (and it lasts 1 minute)
Everytime someone casts bound armaments on you, you cant cloak while its "channeling" you. (well you can, but wont do you much good)
While structured entropy dot is active on you, each tick will break you out.

Ive just listed the major issues that i could think of at the top of my head.

Small correction. Elemental suscpetibility lasts 30 seconds not 1 minute. Other morph elemental drain lasts 1 minute but it does not proc any dmg on enemy.

Galeriano

DrNukenstein wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Oh lord, is there anything in the game that stops streak from working as advertised?

*I don't want to hear "gap closers" or "move fast" because those are not the same as entirely shutting down cloak for 20+ seconds.

At this point it's really getting silly to always see a streak as an escape goat argument when cloak is discussed and vice versa.

StaticWave

Soft counters exist and don't always work. Wouldn't it be a bit unfair if Cloak, in its current state, requires specific hard counters? You press Cloak once, and you proc 3 strong passives (Major Resolve, Major Berserk if slotting Concealed, 300 WD from vamp), get a 100% crit chance for next direct attack, and also get Major Savagery on both bars. Not even Streak provides as many benefits, and you still get hit during Streak.

Like @OBJnoob said, even if you get revealed instantly, you would still get all of the above buffs. Since 2 of those buffs are dmg buffs, you could in fact build tankier to survive while revealed, and still retain a good amount of damage compared to other classes. So comparing the benefits Cloak gives with the benefits of slotting hard counters, I think it's warranted that soft counters exist.

monkidb16_ESO

Turtle_Bot

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

I mean, it works the other way around too:

"Has anyone seen NB main?"

"Hold on, I got this"

*Ahem*
"Sorcerer"

*wall breaks*
"Streak OP"
"Shields OP"
"Curse"
"Lightning Form"
"Dark Deal"

reazea

DrNukenstein wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

Oh lord how I wish what you posted was true. That's how it should work. When NB's take damage, they should be pulled out of cloak, every time. That's how it supposed to work. Why would anyone expect it to be otherwise?

Oh lord, is there anything in the game that stops streak from working as advertised?

*I don't want to hear "gap closers" or "move fast" because those are not the same as entirely shutting down cloak for 20+ seconds.

This thread is about cloak, not streak.

SandandStars

DrNukenstein wrote: »

And the traditional method of guild detect skills which work better than people give them credit for while giving significant stat bonuses that could be considered worth 1 bar slot.

The guild detect skills do not, in fact, “work better than people give them credit for.”

They state that you cannot recloak for 5 seconds after being revealed. Everyone knows this is not true. You can immediately recloak after being revealed by Inner Light.

fred4

SandandStars wrote: »

You can immediately recloak after being revealed by Inner Light.

Not when I play ESO.

Tommy_The_Gun

monkidb16_ESO wrote: »

So true lol. I don't know why it is like this, but it has been since like idk, since the game launched ?!

I think it all boils down to what "player type" each class attracts and it seems like mages don't like sneaking around and rogues don't like lightning spells etc.

SandandStars

fred4 wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

You can immediately recloak after being revealed by Inner Light.

Not when I play ESO.

Consider yourself extremely lucky. For me and many others, Inner Light and Flare do not prevent recloaking. Many have attested to this, including NB mains.

fred4

SandandStars wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

You can immediately recloak after being revealed by Inner Light.

Not when I play ESO.

Consider yourself extremely lucky. For me and many others, Inner Light and Flare do not prevent recloaking. Many have attested to this, including NB mains.

Maybe it's your expectations and how those skills are used. All skills, that have a duration, pulse every X seconds. I believe for Magelight and Expert Hunter that's down to 1 second. First of all those skills have to be running before the nightblade you are fighting attempts to cloak away, otherwise it's usually too late. Then they "only" pulse every one second. A nightblade may theoretically cloak and go out of range, if they are at the edge of the detection area between two pulses of the skill. However, if they do get detected and they get the blue mark above them, they cannot recloak for, I think, 3 seconds. Lastly bear in mind that a nightblade may run Shadow Image, Cloak, or both. It's not easy to tell those skills apart, when you're playing against them. A nightblade with a well-placed Shadow Image may appear to cloak your detection mark, when they're really using Shadow Image.

EDIT: I play on PC EU, where lag is not really an issue anymore. I also play more in IC than Cyro. I would say if your platform has lag, then detection failures may be due to positional desyncs.

CameraBeardThePirate

olsborg wrote: »

Everytime a status effect gets applied to you via a dot etc. Such as the ever popular elemental susceptibility. (and it lasts 1 minute)
Everytime someone casts bound armaments on you, you cant cloak while its "channeling" you. (well you can, but wont do you much good)
While structured entropy dot is active on you, each tick will break you out.

Ive just listed the major issues that i could think of at the top of my head.

Ele Sus doesn't last 1 minute anymore - the other morph without status effects does.

SandandStars

I’m on xbox na, and Ive pvpd long/well enough to know when Ive revealed an NB, and then had them immediately recloak. It happened just last night in a battle ground; it’s pretty standard.

I’ll try and grab a clip and post it here for you. I don’t doubt your experience or reasoning, but regardless, the skills do not work well, or even as the tooltips state, the majority of the time for many experienced players. There are threads where NB mains admitted to it as well.

IZZEFlameLash

SandandStars wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

You can immediately recloak after being revealed by Inner Light.

Not when I play ESO.

Consider yourself extremely lucky. For me and many others, Inner Light and Flare do not prevent recloaking. Many have attested to this, including NB mains.

I've only seen Flare work to prevent revealed NBs not enter stealth for 5 secs. I don't know if I've ever seen guild ones work properly at all. Because usually NB they re-enter less than 5 seconds. Either this game's 5 seconds isn't actually 5 seconds or it has something unwrriten clause of 'when the user of guild detect skills is at x meter distance to the revealed'. Or it could just be 'bug' where they forgot to actually add full 5 seconds duration.

Galeriano

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

You can immediately recloak after being revealed by Inner Light.

Not when I play ESO.

Consider yourself extremely lucky. For me and many others, Inner Light and Flare do not prevent recloaking. Many have attested to this, including NB mains.

I've only seen Flare work to prevent revealed NBs not enter stealth for 5 secs. I don't know if I've ever seen guild ones work properly at all. Because usually NB they re-enter less than 5 seconds. Either this game's 5 seconds isn't actually 5 seconds or it has something unwrriten clause of 'when the user of guild detect skills is at x meter distance to the revealed'. Or it could just be 'bug' where they forgot to actually add full 5 seconds duration.

5 seconds is duration of abilities 4 seconds is stealth invisibility prevention. For example if You activate radiant magelight than if any nightblade comes into the radius of it within 5 seconds after You activated it (6 seconds with mages guild passives) he will be revealed and won;t be able to reetner stealth and invisibility for 4 seconds.

Revealing abilities are notoriously known for working pretty bad against nightblades due to the fact nightblades have good mobility while hidden. There is also an issue of crappy, desyncing way of how server registers players position basically making it that very often game will not recognize nb inside the radius of Your ability. ZoS even changed how often these abilites check for hidden enemeis in the arena and increased their radius because in the past it was impossible to detect them but even after these changes due to already mentioned factors it's still hard for these abilities to work reliably.

IZZEFlameLash

Galeriano wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

You can immediately recloak after being revealed by Inner Light.

Not when I play ESO.

Consider yourself extremely lucky. For me and many others, Inner Light and Flare do not prevent recloaking. Many have attested to this, including NB mains.

I've only seen Flare work to prevent revealed NBs not enter stealth for 5 secs. I don't know if I've ever seen guild ones work properly at all. Because usually NB they re-enter less than 5 seconds. Either this game's 5 seconds isn't actually 5 seconds or it has something unwrriten clause of 'when the user of guild detect skills is at x meter distance to the revealed'. Or it could just be 'bug' where they forgot to actually add full 5 seconds duration.

5 seconds is duration of abilities 4 seconds is stealth invisibility prevention. For example if You activate radiant magelight than if any nightblade comes into the radius of it within 5 seconds after You activated it (6 seconds with mages guild passives) he will be revealed and won;t be able to reetner stealth and invisibility for 4 seconds.

Revealing abilities are notoriously known for working pretty bad against nightblades due to the fact nightblades have good mobility while hidden. There is also an issue of crappy, desyncing way of how server registers players position basically making it tnat very often game will not recognize nb inside the radius of Your ability. ZoS even changed how often these abilites check for hidden enemeis in the arena and increased their radius because in the past it was impossible to detect them but even after these changes due to already mentioned factors it's still hard for these abilities to work reliably.

Yeah, if those skills were reliable, a lot wouldn't just resort to predict/spam direct damage AoE for detection if on potion cooldown.

DrNukenstein

SandandStars wrote: »

I’m on xbox na, and Ive pvpd long/well enough to know when Ive revealed an NB, and then had them immediately recloak. It happened just last night in a battle ground; it’s pretty standard.

I’ll try and grab a clip and post it here for you. I don’t doubt your experience or reasoning, but regardless, the skills do not work well, or even as the tooltips state, the majority of the time for many experienced players. There are threads where NB mains admitted to it as well.

It is possible to purge the revealed effect.

Sometimes I find room for "Efficient Purge", and it's actually kind of nice. Especially with so many long lasting effects that can disrupt cloak/leave you weakened on your next go.

I'm not that smart, so I really wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't my idea and other nightblades are keeping that quiet.

JerBearESO

Keep in mind the anti cloak only applies if you are pulled out of cloak from the effect, not just for being in the area. This means the night blade may be removed from cloak by one of the many bug effects instead of the reveal so as to bypass application of the anti cloak debuff by sheer coincidence.... it would look like the reveal pulled them out with no anti cloak debuff, but it was actually ele sus or some dot(I think it's the dual wield and mages guilds dots which heal the user that do this?)

fred4

DrNukenstein wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

I’m on xbox na, and Ive pvpd long/well enough to know when Ive revealed an NB, and then had them immediately recloak. It happened just last night in a battle ground; it’s pretty standard.

I’ll try and grab a clip and post it here for you. I don’t doubt your experience or reasoning, but regardless, the skills do not work well, or even as the tooltips state, the majority of the time for many experienced players. There are threads where NB mains admitted to it as well.

It is possible to purge the revealed effect.

Sometimes I find room for "Efficient Purge", and it's actually kind of nice. Especially with so many long lasting effects that can disrupt cloak/leave you weakened on your next go.

I'm not that smart, so I really wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't my idea and other nightblades are keeping that quiet.

Very interesting. I'm running Wyrd Tree on my back bar as of late. It has a visual effect similar to, but not as intense as Efficient Purge. Since I now know what that looks like, I've noticed the same effect from some other (nightblade? I don't remember) players. All depends on timing though. Wyrd may very well go to waste just before the detection kicks in and it only works every 15s in any case.

I'm not saying that staying on top of a nightblade that moves well is easy. You really have to do that and keep Magelight / Camou Hunter activated. It's demanding to shuffle everything in a duel and still do damage. However it can be devastating to nightblade(s), if you are in a group and you simply make it your business to be the one activating detection every 5 / 6 seconds and staying on top of nightblades, matching their movement at all times.

IMO that's the way it should be. There are stronger detection methods in AvA already. Flare spam. Bombard / Acid Spray spam. Sentry. Detection potions. Structured Entropy. Streak with a potion. The problem with people who, in my view, don't make the effort to fight nightblades properly and who, therefore, ask for cloak nerfs or detection improvements, is that the viability of nightblades can already flip from "effective" to "doesn't work at all" against opponents or groups who do make the effort. In terms of 1v1, the most obvious counter to nightblades have always been well-played streaking sorcs and, to some extent, other nightblades. For example as a magicka nightblade I typically have a first strike advantage on any player that crouches, or that mixes cloak and crouch, e.g. stamblades and hybrid blades with less cloak sustain than me.

DrNukenstein

Wyrd Tree back bar with race against time to escape sounds legit.

When it comes to using detects though it sounds like a lot of gamers want them to work as an active push the button and it happens thing, like streak. It doesn't work like that though and that's okay. It works as advertised if you use the detects pre-emptively, and the morphs that don't give big damage buffs are more effective at revealing.

I fall victim to the detects and I make the detects work on others. It's fair and satisfying to pull off. Here is what works:

-Example A: You see the nightblade going in a direction. Pop your detect, and move in a direction where you will intercept their path. The worst that will happen is they will for some reason decide to go in a different direction. If they didn't juke, you then have priority because the play was your idea.

-Example B: You are trading with the nightblade. Pop your detect as soon as you dent their health. When they are scared they will want to cloak, reposition and heal/buff. Expect this and that crucial round 2 gambit is gone.

-Example C: Your friend/teammate is fighting a nightblade and you can't wait to give them a taste of their own medicine by +1ing them as if that is a nightblade exclusive thing. Pop your detect on your way in. Basically the same premise as example B.

What doesn't work:

Example Popping your detect when they already cloaked unless they are still standing next to you.

fred4

DrNukenstein wrote: »

It works as advertised if you use the detects pre-emptively, and the morphs that don't give big damage buffs are more effective at revealing.

I fall victim to the detects and I make the detects work on others.

This (!) and, I'm sure you'll agree, pre-emptively means you use a detection skill (like clockwork) while you are fighting a nightblade that's visible at close range. You don't go hunting for a nightblade, that you don't see, with those skills - they are too expensive - unless you're waiting for a flag to turn and have nothing better to do. It takes one to know one, right? I think that may be the real reason why I'm saying nightblades hunt other nightblades. Once you've played one, however, that translates to other classes.

When I see a zerg unsuccessfully trying to kill a 1vXer running around a tree, that's IMO mostly a question of good movement by the 1vXer versus bad / non-committal movement by the zerglings. You have to stay right on top of the target and be relentless with your attacks. While you have to be careful they don't suddenly burst, you know they're on the defensive 95% of the time.

It's the same with nightblades. If your issue is that you don't die (hopefully), but your detection fails, that should mean you've pressured the nightblade into going defensive. At that point your detection skill, if that's what you use, must already be running, because that's when you want to keep applying more pressure or burst them, preferably with a non-dodgeable skill, e.g. Dawnbreaker, Sap / Power Extraction, Whirlwind, and so on. If you only cast the detection skill at that point, then you've probably missed your execution window, even if detection succeeds.

EDIT: Of course I forgot that direct AOE skills will also uncloak the nightblade anyway. Oops. I'm actually running with only potions and Sap Essence these days, e.g. ever since Shadowy Disguise started granting crit, and It's still viable to fight other nightblades. However I do miss the detection skills sometimes. From a PoV of hunting other nightblades it would be better if I had one for sure.

SaffronCitrusflower

Why do so many NB's in PvP expect to be able to be invisible 100% of the time?

AndreNoir

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Why do so many NB's in PvP expect to be able to be invisible 100% of the time?

Why not ?

Baconlad

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

StaticWave

Baconlad wrote: »

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

Just to add to this point. On PC NA there is a NB who regularly does BG in a full glass cannon build with Force Pulse and Asylum Destro. He would charge up a heavy attack, then Force pulse you from stealth and immediately cloak again.

What make it so annoying to fight him are:

1) He’s only visible for less than a second. Sometimes I only see where the heavy attack and Force Pulse appear, but not the actual character.

2) He repositions extremely fast, so most likely nearly capped in speed, making it really hard to pin point where he is

3) He does a CRAP ton of damage

I have tried using detect potion against him, but because he’s always at range and has super fast movement speed, by the time I see him, I’m already out of melee range. Now I have to sprint towards him before the detect potion runs out. That’s a lot of effort to counter 1 ability…


I know for a fact this is only possible because of Cloak. People often say Cloak is too easy to be revealed but when used correctly and smartly it is the best defensive AND offensive ability in the game.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

All of yall nightblades complaining about others hating on cloak.

You can talk all you want, make all the arguments you care to. But I will shoot this conversation down. There's no rebuke to this.

There's evidence IN GAME that cloak is as powerful as everyone is saying it is. The evidence is that nightblades who use cloak are able to stack nothing but damage and the sustain needed for cloak.

No other class in the game has the capability to run all damage and survive the way cloak allows. No one. I run an absolute glass canon magplar. I SHRED....but get shredded. I've seen many mag and Stam builds of all classes attempt full damage and it's the same thing. They get the damage you NBs have but drop to a fart in the wind.

Cloak is the single best defensive skill in the game, and unlike other defense skills that doesn't heal (dodge roll, streak, mist.) You don't have a ramping cost of cloak. If you choose to run cloak there are no tradeoffs to running full damage. The only counters to the skill are two reveal skills that must be slotted and cast by ur enemy and a pretty OP potion that is very rare on the battlefield.

Sure you can be pulled out of it, and sure you can die easily when your not in cloak, but it's so easy to be IN cloak and not be detected you'll survive most encounters you come across. There is nothing more oppressive and irritating in this game to play against than an extremely well played NB that knows the ins and outs of cloak. Able to 25% health you before you can break free and when you do he's back in cloak for a second open. It's ridiculous. I get it, you like the stealth gameplay, and I agree with you it needs to be in the game...but something needs to change with it. Ramping cost, removal of guaranteed crits...something, I'm not the one to make that decision. But it needs to be done.

Just to add to this point. On PC NA there is a NB who regularly does BG in a full glass cannon build with Force Pulse and Asylum Destro. He would charge up a heavy attack, then Force pulse you from stealth and immediately cloak again.

What make it so annoying to fight him are:

1) He’s only visible for less than a second. Sometimes I only see where the heavy attack and Force Pulse appear, but not the actual character.

2) He repositions extremely fast, so most likely nearly capped in speed, making it really hard to pin point where he is

3) He does a CRAP ton of damage

I have tried using detect potion against him, but because he’s always at range and has super fast movement speed, by the time I see him, I’m already out of melee range. Now I have to sprint towards him before the detect potion runs out. That’s a lot of effort to counter 1 ability…


I know for a fact this is only possible because of Cloak. People often say Cloak is too easy to be revealed but when used correctly and smartly it is the best defensive AND offensive ability in the game.

There's multiple groups of NB doing this in cyro on PC EU right now too. Fun fact, they all still have 30k health and insane healing with offering + vigor, so even when you do catch them its impossible to kill them because they dodge roll cancel offering for a full heal straight into invis/LoS (or both).